Ö÷²¥´óÐã

I'm fed up with all this Celtic jabber about "nations and regions". We do not want and never have wanted England bust up into regions. It is scandalous that the Welsh have now had THREE referenda on their assembly, yet we in England have not had even one referendum as a NATION on an English Parliament.

We are told that we can't have even a referendum on an English Parliament because the Union would not survive. Well if the Union cannot survive we English being treated as equals to the Scots and Welsh, the Union is not worth keeping.

The Scottish Government intends to make students in England the only ones in the EU paying full tuition fees. How does that NOT affect people in England? Yet we in England have no say on the matter.

The Scottish Government has made available 15 cancer drugs that are denied to patients in England. So English cancer sufferers (and their families) are expected to pay for cancer drugs denied to them, in order to prolong lives in Scotland.

Mr Murphy whines about English Votes on English Laws leading to a "two tier" parliament. Well we already have a "two tier" people where lives in England are considered less worthy than lives elsewhere in the UK.

English Votes on English Laws goes nowhere near far enough. We must have an English Parliament NOW to focus on England.

MPs from Scotland, Wales and N Ireland really cannot continue to have their cake and eat it. There is no reason why they should have any say at all over legislation that is purely for England, e.g. on university tuition fees. It is one of the 'joys of devolution', as Ben Bradshaw put it, that each nation should be free to make its own choices. That must include England. Respectable and credible opinion polls - even one for Ö÷²¥´óÐã Newsnight - regularly report substantial majority support for English 'home rule'. Such polls also report that most Scots agree. Paul Murphy and others obstruct proper representative reform because it does not suit them - as far as English legislation is concerned they represent 'rotten boroughs'. They should remember the slogan, 'No taxation without representation'.

Paul Murphy is indeed a man of amazing arrogance. He believes that England should have regional assemblies, whether the English want them or not, to defuse demands that Welsh MPs should no longer vote on English matters. The mode of government of 50 million people in England to be determined to suit the convenience of 3 Million or so people in Wales. No thanks mate. You have had your referendums, it is time for us to have ours. A full English Parliament is what we need.

As long as the income of the National Assembly for Wales, The Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly is determined by expenditure in England then their MPs have a legitimate vote on those issues. Change the funding formula to one based on need and then the votes of the Celtic nations can be disregarded.

I have always believed that every citizen of the United Kingdom, that is everyone, should receive an equal share of government spending; naïve possibly, but it has a certain morality about it, it seems ethical that no one person should be favoured, if you favour one you disadvantage another.

So the only equitable funding formula is "everyone gets the same".

Re 5

Mmmm...wasn't that the kind of logic behind the hated Poll Tax?!

Or are you perhaps a secret socialist or even a communist? Are you you saying that I should receive the same share of government spending as the Queen (or even that of the wonderful Prince Andrew!) ? But of course not, the Queen isn't a citizen, is she? But, then again, neither am I. Apparently I'm a subject!!!!!

Perhaps I'm being naive...

#6 are you suggesting our Head of State should be on the minimum wage !

Let me reassure you, the use of "citizen" in many pieces of UK legislation, I have previously given reference examples, confirm you are a citizen of the United Kingdom.

Having an equal share of government expenditure is not Socialist or Communist, this is a Liberal view of politics, not LD I might add, coupled to my preference for a much smaller government.

#6 FoDafydd

The poll tax could have been a fair local tax if phased it like it was intended. However, Scottish politicians were fearful of a huge rates hike in Scotland, with Scotland's rates review taking place a year earlier than in Wales and England. So the poll tax was rushed in at the bequest of Scottish politicians and messed up.

One more the tartan tail was wagging the British bulldog with disastrous consequences.

Don't take my word for it, ask Malcolm Rifkind and Ken Clark who have both said the same thing.

Stephen Gash in the openning comment makes some very good points as does Tartanrock.
We have a situation where Scottish, Welsh and Ulster MPs can vote on issues such as health and education in Westminster. When they do so they are voting on English only matters for which they have no democratic mandate from the English people. The irony of the situation is that in their own countries they have no mandate from their own people to discuss these issues, that mandate is given to their parliament and assembly members. This is a ridiculous situation that cannot be allowed to continue.
Commentators are correct in saying that Paul Murphy is arguing against and English Parliament because is does not suit him. This is a charge that can be levelled against most politicians from the Lib/Lab/Con unionist party. (I say party and not parties because I am unable to tell the difference between them)
The only democratic answer is an English Parliament. The Act of Devolution let the genie out of the bottle with regard to the Celtic Nation's administrations. It can never be put back in the bottle so we have to move forward in a fair and democratic manner.
The Union will only survive as a Federation of the Ö÷²¥´óÐã Nations each with their own Parliament. The House of Lords can then be replaced with an elected Upper house of all the Nations from where the economy, armed services, foreign affairs, etc, can be debated.
This situation may not suit the party politics of the Lib/Lab/Con but when in living memory have their politics properly suited the people they purport to serve?
The MPs will hate the English Democrat solution because it will bring the administration closer to the people of all the nations and make them so much more directly accountable.
Will the previous commentators please give my post some feedback?

Paul Murphy is a Labour MP and this kind of drivel is typical as wasn't it Labour who deliberately and cynically left England out of the lop-side devolution act for their own political advantage in the first place and to hell with how unfair that would be to the people of England as long as they were kept in power. How dare this man suggest that 50 million people in England should be denied what people elsewhere in the UK already have, i.e. their own parliament/assembly making decision in the interests of England alone without outside interference from the likes of Paul Murphy sticking his nose into business that does not concern him. As for Welsh MPs or even Scottish and NI MPs being reduced at Westminster, why are they there anyway when most of the decisions made for their constituents are taken by AMs in the Welsh Assembly or 129 MSPs at Holyrood. Bizarrely these MPs have virtually no role for their own constituents and their only role nowadays to justify their existence is to sit at Westminster and meddle in English only matters. Well enough is enough. England wants it's own parliament and it is the denial of one which will eventually break up this so called Union.

Mark, #9, I think you are overly optimistic when you write "The Union will only survive as a Federation of the Ö÷²¥´óÐã Nations each with their own Parliament."

Where has there been a successful reverse engineered federation, the federation is a group of like minded politicians from different countries with a single purpose, often security, who are able to sell the idea of conjoining to their citizens. In the UK we have like minded politicians dismembering the UK for their own good, they prefer to concept of being a large fish in a devolved pond, the next inevitable step is that of complete separation.

In Wales there has been a concerted effort by our political carpetbaggers to create "difference" this side of Offa's Dyke, this difference is the fuel that will be used in the future to support the concept of full separation ..... as a Unionist living in a world where politicians are demonstrably less than honest with the electorate, the future is not a pleasant vision.

It seems at long last the message of The English Democrats is now being taken seriously. That the people of England are being treated unfairly. However, I cannot see the current crop of MP's are likely to do anything radical enough to change the status quo. The idea of regional assemblies for England is obviously an EU originated idea that if I recall, has already been dismissed. Some Tory MP's have suggested a grand council for England which would see sitting MP's less the Welsh and Scots etc speaking and voting on England only issues. A fudge of the issue no less.

The concept of an English Parliament is a straight forward way to put the people of England on level terms with thier nieghbours. Couple this with an elected upper house to look after national and international affairs, and you would not have another layer of beauracracy as some MP's would have us believe. Its not about splitting the Union, indeed if all citizens of our islands really had equal rights that include a common democracy, it would only serve to strengthen the union at such a time when world events need unity from a nation and people with different cultures that has given the world so much.

Re 8

StephenGash,

Three cheers for the tartan tail! You won't be surprised that I have not been persuaded by your defence of the Poll Tax, and believe me, hearing the views of Malcolm Rifkind and Ken Clarke won't change that!

#6
" are you suggesting our Head of State should be on the minimum wage !"

No, I'm interested in your comment:

"I have always believed that every citizen of the United Kingdom, that is everyone, should receive an equal share of government spending"

- because your very right wing views, and the fact that you are a monarchist, make it is impossible for you to believe that!

And I am still officially merely a subject in this so-called democracy.

Yet another Commission?..... Well, is a surprise - NOT!
With a very few exceptions, THEY are all in this together. The mass deceit of all three major parties doing their level best to try and find the longest of long grasses to kick the issue of an English Parliament into - willing it to go away. And there they hope it will disappear forever, parked just next to Jimmy Hoffa and Lord Lucan...

Unfortunately for the Westminster political massive, a bit of a momentum is building from the very people in England they are supposed to represent. A 'Grand Committee' just will not do anymore - it's so last century. It might have been the solution then - but not now. Now we want, we demand an English Parliament (recent opinion polls show 68% of people in England in favour of one). And if that demand isn't met (and soon) then the union definitely will, with cast-iron certainty be doomed. And it won't be the Scots who bring this about it will be the English..... Afterall, how can we be in a 'union of equals' when it patently isn't.

National democracy has been the must-have accessory for the past few hundred years - and it's about time we in England had it bestowed back to us...

Chris Grayling, a Government Minister with an English seat has just been on the TV saying Libya should have self determination and decide it's own destiny - the irony of those words! Meanwhile David Cameron and Ed Miliband have just had a row at PMQs over £9,000 tuition fees although it's a bit rich for the Labour leader to feign indignation when his party introduced them in England in the first place on the back of Scottish Labour MPs. Disgracefully, not once did either of them mention the word England, instead referring to 'universities up and down this country' taking us for idiots as usual by trying to imply the whole UK will be affected and therefore we are all in this together. When will these politicians show some backbone and be honest about the undemocratic way England is treated and put their constituents before party although in the Conservative's case this should be one and the same as it was England who voted for them. If Gordon Brown had got his way last year, England would now be governed by a rainbow coalition made up of Labour, LibDems, SNP, Plaid Cymru and even Sinn Fein. I don't suppose you would have had any argument with that would you Mr. Murphy? Thought not! Maybe that is what it will take for the Conservatives to do their job and demand equality with the rest of the UK although I somehow doubt it!

Jools2B in post 10: well said! I can add nothing to your comments. The English Democrats have produced a video on the subject you refer to called 'Busy Doing Nothing.' If you don't want to watch the video then the title says it all.
John Tyler in post 11. Thank you for your comment. I find it difficult to disagree with your points, they are well made.
If I may I will say this; we must advance the arguement for an English Parliament with a workable model that offers a fair chance to all, especially as we are the larger and most wealthy partner. I agree that our model may appear over optimistic and there will be people for whom such co-operation will be diffficult to accomodate in their own politics and who may eventually wreck such an optimistic plan but we must step out in a positive manner and retain the moral high ground. Others may wish to spoil things, we must make sure that this charge is not directed at the English.

Mark Lancaster-English Democrats - 'The English Democrats have produced a video on the subject you refer to called 'Busy Doing Nothing.'.....
Errr, no they didn't; and I know that because I am the person who wrote, filmed, edited and uploaded it - and it has nowt to do with the English Democrats. Please give credit where credit is due - and do not claim material that isn't yours or your party's... The video was done for an organisation called 'Justice for England' - it has nothing to do with the English Democrats. Thankyou.

Is there not an unofficial convention that the 'Celtic Fringe' MPs absent themselves from the Chamber during English matter only debates? A far better method than regional assemblies would be to formalise this, and there we would have it, an English parliament! Now then, Welsh free prescriptions and Scottish subsidised education, these were election issues in the devolved administrations. To get the same things in England these issues need to advanced up the political agenda. You want them, then vote for them. It suits the Westminster 'village' to keep these things murky and set people at each others throats.

Somehow I can't see English politicians breaking up the union; the imperial reflex is too strong. They love being Great Britain and if you can't get them out of Afghanistan how are you going to get them out of Scotland? There also seem to be some misconcpetions in these posts, If Scottish or Welsh politicians vote for more cancer treatment, free prescriptions or lower fees for students, they are not increasing their budgets or increasing subsidies from England. They can't; the budget is fixed by the Barnett formula. They have to rob Peter to pay Paul; those things are paid for by denying the people in Wales or Scotland other services that people in England get. It's called choice and nothing stops English MPs making the same choices if they want to. Moreover the budgets in the devolved countries are set by what the UK Parliament decides to spend in England. If the UK Parliament decided to slash health spending and increase defence, the budget in Scotland and Wales would fall sharply because health is devolved and defence isn't. So it is the business of Scottish and Welsh MPs and they should have a vote on it. Everybody's taxes go into the pot after all. This English paranoia is pathetic. England is the biggest country and has by far the biggest say so this pathetic victim mentaility does you no credit.

RW49. There is no such convention. Top up fees for Universities in England were introduced (by New Labour) only with the assistance of votes from Scottish MPs. Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs constantly intervene in English matters. At one stage we even had a Scot in charge of the English National Health Service. Your advice, "you want these things, vote for them" blythly ignores the fact that there is no devolved English forum in which we can do so.

Despite tredwyn's protestations, it isn't true that "those things are paid for by denying the people in Wales or Scotland other services that people in England get".

This is because the Barnett Formula gives Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland much larger sums than people in England get, so the choice they exercise is in what EXTRA benefits they choose to have - they certainly don't lose anything!

England's problem is that there are no "England" MPs with the responsibility to stand up for England, just a UK Parliament full of UK MPs most of whom (the nationalists excepted) are only interested in the UK as a whole.

Which means that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland each have a forum for their national issues and also send MPs, including nationalists (SNP, Plaid Cymru, etc.) with a focus on their local nation to the UK Parliament to trample over what the people of England themselves want.

The people of England have politically been turned into second-class citizens - are our MPs really going to force us to start Civil Rights Marches to regain equal citizenship?

There's only one fair solution - and it doesn't involve balkanising England into competing "regions" with zero historic relevance.

We English need our own parliament re-established to work in our interest. We deserve the same recognition, representation, funding and services as the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.

English parliament NOW!

A devolved England too. What's wrong with that? That way England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland can raise their own taxes to meet their own devolved populations' needs.

The current 'fake' and divisive situation of the so-called UK will be finally cleaned up and delineated. All devolved nations in Britain will have equal responsibility of raising their own taxes and costs of membership of the EU.

Is there a problem with that? As it currently stands - no currently devolved government is happy with England not being devolved. Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish politicians are fed up with attending the English Parliament. Quite right too.

The European Union are laughing at Britain's confusion - separate devolved governments in one tiny island - except for England? Make England devolved too - then we are all equal. Any problem with that?

@tredwyn

The Barnett Formula is a block grant generated by public spending in England and allegedly distributed according to population.

There are some points that need to said.

1. On its own admission the UK Government does not strictly follow the Barnett Formula and doles out money to the those recognised nations regardless of the spending in the unrecognised England.

2. The non-England nations spend the money as they see fit. Let's look at how this works. England has the most extensive (and most intensive) road networks in the world, let alone Europe. Scotland and Wales have networks nowhere near approaching England's extent. Every pound spent on England's roads generates Barnet cash for the non-England nations whether they need the generated amount or not. This is pertinent because it is reported today England's road's urgently require £10.7 billion for repairs. The cash not spent on non-English roads goes on free prescriptions, cancer drugs, free higher education, free care for the elderly etc etc. Roads is just one example. Flood defence is another. Barnet cash is based on English needs, not Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish needs, and nobody is going to tell me that cancer patients in England don't need life-prolonging medicines any less than those in Scotland. Put simply, spending in England in a particular area provides alot of spare cash after spending in the same area is completed in Scotland and Wales.

3. England will never be permitted a higher spending per capita than any other nation in the UK. This is why England has been bust up into regions, despite English hostility to regions. This enables Paul Murphy and other anti-England politicians to compare spending in Wales with that in a spurious English region, invariably one that might have higher spending at the time the comparison is made. It's all smoke and mirrors. Nobody compares the spending in Glasgow to the highlands and islands, for example, or North Wales to South Wales. The Devolution Act made provision for the regionalisation of Scotland, but it hasn't been done because the Scots don't want it. However, Paul Murphy and other Celts insist England must be bust up even though we oppose it.

4. Only English assets are being sold off to benefit the Union. Any forest sell-offs in Scotland, for example, provide cash that remains in Scotland. English sell-offs go to the UK exchequer and thus generate Barnet cash for non-English naions or is used to help pay off UK debt.

5. Calls for English independence have risen from next to nothing in 1997 to around 20% now. Support for an English Parliament have been constantly around 63% since 2007 (having risen from 16% in 1997). The combined support for English votes on English laws and an English Parliament is 75%+ . Obviously, the longer the English calls for home rule are ignored, indeed suppressed, by the British establishment, the greater the English antipathy for the Union becomes.

Why isn't this being discussed on the England > Politics page?

ah yes - because there isn't one.

Not because there isn't any English politics - most Westminster business is England only these days.

If you want to read about England only politics on the Ö÷²¥´óÐã you have to go to the Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish politics pages.

You'd think it would be in the public interest wouldn't you? Evidently not in the Ö÷²¥´óÐã's though who for the sake of their future cover the UK government's anti English policies.

englandarise

That is because the Ö÷²¥´óÐã signed up to promoting the regional bust-up of England, in return for not being regulated by Ofcom for political impartiality. The Ö÷²¥´óÐã Trust regulates the Ö÷²¥´óÐã for political impartiality.

The Ö÷²¥´óÐã's Charter shows how the Ö÷²¥´óÐã promotes regionalisation.

After considerable lobbying the Ö÷²¥´óÐã now occasionally mentions "England" on news programmes when reporting on devolved matters. However, it never reports what the situation is in Scotland, for comparison. It still refers to "the country" and "the NHS" for example, when it means England and the English Health Service, giving the impression that England-only matters are happening across the UK.

The Ö÷²¥´óÐã's position on England is now both intolerable and indefensible.

It is interesting, and rather funny, to watch the English waking up to the reality of Devolution.

Most nationalist that I know in Wales and Scotland support the , I know I do. WEhat annoys us is the way that the EWnglish, for so many generations, have tended to conflate the idea of Britain with England. Much of the media still does.

I would be all for the establishment of an "Assembly for England", with no law making powers (much along the lines of the Welsh assembly in 1999) and let them gain powers through referendum as we did in March.

And as a point of information for those who complain about Celtic MPs voting on England only matters, the nationalist parties (Plaid and the SNP - Shinn Fein don't count as they have never taken up their seats) don't vote on those as a matter of principle.