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It is the country's duty to give priority treatment to injured military personnel, and therefore the military hospitals should be kept open. However, in times of peace, the military hospitals should treat NHS patients (although military personnel should always take priority). This would both assist the NHS in managing their waiting list, and keep the military doctors doing what they should be doing - treating patients.

Care for the Armed Forces.

How many times does the Minister have to say that he has made things very clear.

The only thing that is clear is that the Government are willing to spend £12billion on a political ego trip called "the 2012 Games" yet unable to care for the armed forces.

During his interview the veterans minister stated that there was not enough work to justify a dedicated military hospital for our injured troops.
In 1966/67 I was stationed at RAF Hospital Ely, Cambs. The policy there was that empty beds were filled by NHS patients who were on the local waiting lists. With the current state of the NHS perhaps this policy could be used again.

I feel it is shameful that this government is prepared to send our troops to war but is not prepared to provide for the inevitable consequences of their decisions

Where on earth did you find that idiot of a minister.
As a Hampshire Police Office in the 1960/70's, I often visited Tidworth Military Hospital which looked after Soldiers, their pregnant wives and their sick children. If my memory serves me right; it also catered for civilians in the Tidworth area.
I am also familiar with Haslar Naval Hospital at Gosport. Both are/were superb hospitals and should never be abandoned, especially with the current bunch of nincompoops taking us into ridiculous wars at the drop of a hat.

It seems to me that one solution to being unable to maintain military hospitals with the level of use they were receiving would be to make the military use the primary one, and any remaining capacity as overflow capability for the NHS.

I think that everyone will agree it is self evident that people who have been injured whilst working as part of the armed forces should be guaranteed the best care we have, and that they should get that care as soon as possible.

The question is how can we ensure they get the care they deserve, everything else is a side issue.

Last year I read a book by a retired police officer in N. Ireland called INTO THE DARK so why is todays news about imformers News???? Read the book and weep for the honesty and bravery of one man trying to make a difference and feel the pain of a family man with values and morals not to mention bravery.
the boook is by Johnston brown.

General Jackson is absolutely correct in his comments. My own experience of military hospitals in the 1970's leads me to believe that the care neccessary to members of the armed forces cannot possibly be given in civilian hospitals. I spent time in 3 military hospitals and a joint services medical rehabilitation unit which, since my time in the army, have all closed. There is not enough space here to detail my experiences but suffice it to say that I believe I received expert care whilst retaining the feeling that I was part of a caring family.
Why couldn't that idiot politician give a straight answer to any of Jeremy Paxman's questions?

I am so pleased that you have highlighted the treatment (so called) of our Service men and women.

I was 14 years serving as a Nursing Officer in the RAF and we had excellent up to date treatments and also the Hospitals treated a number of cilvilians Wroughton Hospital was refurbished a scanner in place and it was closed. Wroughton also had a Psychiatric Unit which is essential treating war veterans. It is ludicrous of the Minister to say that was it 8 beds were sufficient GET REAL

PLEASE also investigate the way they are treated when invalided out. I had to fight for 6 years to receive n invalidity pension, and now the situation is much worse.Norcross who make the decisions will not get up to date Consultants reports they get the minimum of information and rely on decrepet elderly retired GP's on the Medical Boards

I was discharged in 1982 so feel very sorry for the Service men now in a much worse state than I was

During my service in the RN I was sent for treatment at RNH Haslar in 1973. The hospital was being used by the NHS to treat civilians from the Portsmouth and Gosport areas, I would be surprised if this practice has ceased. There is no reason not to keep this facility open as a military hospital to deal with the casualities currently being sent to Solihull and also to treat civilians as it has been doing for the past thirty years or more.

The Veterans Minister failed to say that the Military Hospitals treated Civilians as well as Service personnel. The Royal Hospital Haslar is up and running, manned by Service and Civilian staff. It has a potential base load of some 200,000 civilians. It is a very well equipped, clean hospital which has not had MRSA. The reason given for its closure was saving in money but in the event whilst there may have been a marginal saving to the MOD, the overall costs for the local NHS, Ambulance service and MOD was an increase in cost for a reduced service to the public and Service Personnel. There are 5000 service men and women unfit for active duty who cannot be fast tracked within the NHS. This is both expensive and puts unnecessary strain on those who are fully fit. The refusal to make best use this Military Hospital beggars belief. Consultants from Haslar who left the Services because of the run down in Service medicine are now working in the Private Sector treating the Service personnel they would have treated in Haslar.

Though covered by the mainstream news programmes today, you would almost think Northern Ireland was not a part of the UK, such was the absence of public outrage at police collusion with murderers there in the recent past.

However the Sec of State Peter Hain excelled in his interview with Jeremy. He answered all questions, directly and sometimes indirectly. No attempt to justify the unjustifiable, and good with his explanations and assurances that the current new structures were based on accountability. Why isn't Peter Hain being considered as a potential replacement for Mr Blair?

The other Minister was disgraceful. Twigg seems more typical of the current Blair/Browne regime. Newsnight has fought a long campaign to give a voice to the serving UK military, and has been first in identifying the gaps between Govt rhetoric and operating realities. Twigg's argument was that because he visited the NHS hospital, it must therefore meet the needs of wounded soldiers, notwithstanding its capacity of just 9 beds.

VETERAN-military experienced soldier: a long-serving member of the military who has had much active service
a veteran of three foreign wars

VETERAN-somebody formerly in armed forces: a former member of the armed forces.

Encarta ® World English Dictionary

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005

I was part of that march to rasie awareness and can be seen on the clip as the fusilier bolting down the top of the statue during its assmebly. I and other members of "the forgotten platoon" will be utterly outraged by the fact that the "veterans minister" through out the whole period of his questioning seems to class serving veterans and Medically discharged/injured veterans the same and assumes ex forces veterans actually have access to the Selly Oak hospital for treatment.Hope fully when the programme is released in may the public will see to the full extent how much just a handfull of once proud troops have been thrown onto the scrapheap.
I know for a fact although there are 2 units they are in fact mixed units shared with civillians on the same wards, the only reason they are in contact is the fact that they try to put all the wounded serving personell on the same ward. Denzil has never been offered treatment for his leg at Selly Oak neither have i for the gunshot injuries i recived during my service. That aside its not just the physical injuries side we were campaining for. Apart from during your service or prior to discharge are you given the guidance veterans need to deal with the mental illneses that can and more often than the mod would ever admit do arise, and the fact there there is NO offical support from the MOD to help treat its veterans with PTSD. At the moment the only care an ex forces veteran has is through a CPN (community phyciatric nurse) who are utterly unable to deal with the issues a man faces in combat or service, Or if very lucky can be reffered to COMBAT STRESS a CHARITY organisation that is desperatly underfunded with limited resources relying entirley on sponsors and charity drives to provide care for the ex military. IN SHORT BRITISH EX FORCES VETERANS HAVE BEEN UTTERLY ABANDONED.
From the Misnisters statement he is in desperate need of a title change, Having reviewed the progam twice now i do belive he would be more suited to the title "Minister for serving personel" as only once did he actually mention ex forces patients and i quote "I have spoken personally to the soldiers and thier families" also "we want to treat the injured service personel", not a mention of war veterans and "i make it clear again ive been to selly oak ive spoken to the soldiers and servicemen and thier families and we are providing the best possible care" and finally "its always been the case that since 1948 that those who have left the military service are treated by the NHS". So the statement proves that his concerns were not with the issue of "EX FORCES VETERANS". This comes acros purley as "Well once you have left the forces your not entitled to the same level of care as you would recive in a military hospital. So the moral of the story remains "while your in your safe, once your out, Your not our problem". This is dispite the fact that many myself included are dischared medically from the forces as we can no longer for reasons of our injuries be usefull to the forces. More often than not i know personally of many many examples of this where your discharged mid treatment and requiring extensive aftercare. Is this enough?

Why am I not surprised that my comments have not appeared?

I am of no political persuasion, just an elderly pensioner expressing her views. Who listens? No-one.

NEWSNIGHT - MON22JAN06 (player is playing up tonight)

Ref Gloria Baldock #5

Bang on about RAF Wroughton Hospital - a great hospital & good example of a military civilian mix - NOW CLOSED :(

Good contribution from Lisa Wise (British Legion) & General Sir Mike Jackson.

The Veterans Minister Derek Twigg (lack lustre 'THICK OF IT' merited performance) ... should be taken outside & shot … then left to recover in the existing system.

Well handled by Jeremy Paxman

Q: how many military beds available minister? (asked several times)

ANS: eventually extracted ….. "two bays" said the Minister …."8 or 9 beds" ------- --> for the whole service of 200,000+ personnel? *

* In 2006 we had 95,560 standing army of regulars compared with 156,500 in 1990 & then had 9 military hospitals in essentially a peacetime era. Now 8 hospitals are closed (flats doubtlessly)& remaining one about to be closed at a time when funding is lowest since 1930's & we face longest & fiercest fighting since 1950's Korea. [7a] [7b]

Q. "is it acceptable for solider to be told too take off military uniform …. have to defend the war they fought in … be attacked by hospital visitors?" (asked several times)

ANS: Derek Twigg blatantly failed to answer this & bottled it .. only touting official line ''...access to world class services"

Disgraceful & BLOODY RIDICULOUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone who feels like it can contact Derek Twigg direct and/or visit his 'surgery' …. …. given his biography how can this professional institutionalised politician be QUALIFIED to handled his brief ?

MILITARY MEDICAL SERVICES:

Having experienced first hand what has gone before in this arena, feel more than qualified to comment on what is seemingly available now to service personnel.

Anyone who has been in a military hospital knows the somewhat robust & harsh at times a level of necessary 'tough love' required.

In the military mindset, the patient has an injury who just happens to be attached too it, their interest is in the injury, which rarely extends too the social niceties & bedside manner when dealing with the patient, esp by consultants (nurses great).

A system which handles military (esp Army) in a appropriate manner, aids recovery, providing a healthy mental state for the injured personnel, essential for sense of belonging & a mind frame of 'can do' 'make do' & 'solider on'.

Any system which undermines the ethos of the services, albeit 'non loving/friendly' & 'feely feely', does the patient no long term favours, as they will hopefully return to military life, not live in the impersonal indifference of civilian services (you have rights, but we do have the resources to enforce such rights).

The availability of several specialists in a one stop shop arrangement (via NHS) is desirable for necessary life saving treatments.

The question is whether these services, should be military in essence (personnel) exclusively made available to service personnel as part of separate investment in military services, esp in times of war, then shared out in peacetime to civilian services.

Also, there is a real difference between CASEVAC services (treatment from field to rear echelons) which is typically excellent then what happens thereafter, esp long term care & recovery.

Not everyone will qualify for a place at the excellent Headley Court which if it ever goes will be the biggest damming indictment of the system & supposed covenant between the service & state [0]

To place a recuperating injured military personnel at the mercy of NHS, esp variances of local services & priorities, is tantamount to neglect & failure of Duty of Care, by the New Labour, Government, MoD & by NHS.

Q.1 once injured & fully recovered, what are the retention rates for personnel thereafter? **

Q.2 once injured & 'recovered' as best can, what are the retention rates for personnel? **

** how long do they stay in, split between time spent recovering to returning to service

i.e. the process injured personnel exposed too in recovery will heavily determine their physical & mental recovery.

If we do not do well by these people, then we have allowed an enemy to have a double win, as a readily recoverable injury will lead to a termination of service, just as if they had killed the solider & taken the body from the battlefield.

Message to the Government ... if not moved by common sense, duty & what is right argument ….protect your investment …. it’s not cost effective to loose people this way … i.e. no one left to fight your wars which they are only too willing to fight (BANG BANG CHING CHING).

btw - anyone with dealings of MoD, perfectly aware that its a career support system for too many who would not readily find employment elsewhere. Too much has changed & the excellent ethos & performance of the Armed Forces has been severely let down by 'civil servants' who have display a slavish culture that kow-tows to Gordon Brown & the treasury minions & do not fight for what is needed for our Armed Forces across the board (kit, pay, support, housing, benefits etc).

MEDICAL DISCHARGE BOARD:

For those who have gone through trauma of a Medical Discharge Board, truly deserve sympathy & understanding.

Mid way between Spanish Inquisition & a scene from Oliver Twist in front of the Work House Board, the process is weighted with a bias to explore all possibilities that the SERVICE cannot reemploy the serviceman in some way.

If they offer you a 'reasonable' job elsewhere, then no Medical Discharge & the system saves a small fortune.

A former Marine could readily find themselves working in bar pulling pints or redeployed as a secretary (horse & cart comes to mind).

Quite bottom on the list is whether the serviceman WANTS to do this.

If fortunate, the P7L7+ candidate could find themselves with a sympathetic & enlightened consultant who will make an informed decision.

Moreover, it will be 2+ senior medical personnel per applicant, who attempt to make a dispassionate review of medical notes. If the notes are not impartial, clear & dispassionate, one will presume which party gets overly screwed.

If the candidate is successful, they get put on a conveyor belt of assistance, that to be fair, will be very unlike what Serviceman will have encountered before. An eligibility for training, money & time/leave will be given.

However, far too many serviceman fall short of being eligible of pursuing Medical Board & leave service truly 'walking wounded' & the system is designed to put people off.

There afterwards, a War Disability Pension * (any service related injury) may be applied for from the Veterans Agency (temp or perm injury on short, medium, long scale). Typically accessed by the British Legion or similar organisation like SSAFA or one of the many service related charities. 20%+ gets a recipient tax free monthly pension, which also makes a recipient of a Service Pension tax free. Both Pittance of a Pension can be tax free, indexed linked & non contributory (dam right too).

* changed from reasonable doubt & LIKELIHOOD to one of probability (resulting in a 4 x rejection of claims, when military is 10 x likely to be exposed to danger)

btw - military has responsibility to return a serviceman to civilian life as they found them or compensate for such & there are two types of discharge:

1) the paper variety (virtually sign away any real rights) cost effective for government.
2) full military discharge - costly for government, what is right for

SERVICE RELATED:

- Medical Discharges from the Armed Forces [1]
- British Legion [2]
- SSFA [3]
- Forces Charities [4a] [4b]
- a worth while cause [5]

SUMMARY:

Honour & Respect are two words unknown to New Labour ... unless they are chasing fluffy headlines with Law & Order initiatives ….. RESPECT ZONES

If only our generation of serving politicians themselves had served, or had family & children serving in the military who have been both exposed to danger & experienced first hand what is going on - these people are failing the most exposed in any society - those who are asked to volunteer to protect & service said society.

Haslar hospital in Portsmouth [6a] the last military hospital is due for closure [6b]

If this goes ahead then all we have learnt about warfare since the Crimea … Florence Nightingale … poor policy … poor logistics … inadequate kit …. has truly come back to CONDEMN the politicians & esp NEW LABOUR … given the impasse of supporting the war in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Who will vote & trust NEW LABOUR given this the biggest tangible betrayal of national interest.

Especially as Brown & the Treasury has squandered monies clawed back from supporting the Military & redirected them into resource bottomless, unreformed failing civilian state services.

As the Daily Telegraph states "Britain spends less of its wealth on defence than Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey despite the constant demands placed on its Armed Forces ...Defence spending is lowest since the 1930s" [7]

What a betrayal by New Labour of our British Armed Forces & the national interest of The United Kingdom.

"With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love" - John F. Kennedy [8]

Given what's going on (traceable decision making & levels of funding all with sticky treasury fingerprints) .... then truly .... GORDON is a MORON.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[0]
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4a]
[4b]
[5]
[6a]
[6b]
[7a]
[7b]
[8]

Ref Mr Edward Beddoes (fusilier) #13

Hear Hear mate

As an ex Brit Airborne Warrior (now cripple) I completely echo your sentiments.

Not Bolshie myself, but we are duty bound to arm ourselves & fight in the terms which now determine success/failure in the Armed Forces & society of today.

My advice to any serving personnel with medical problems.... get your medical needs addressed in the service, hire a lawyer if need be & stay the course.

Once outside, you are badly treated & neglected

There are some noted civil exception (all NGO is essence) so make the most of your position, salary, roof over your head & access to variety of services whilst still in ... retrain if neccessary.

Remember, military mindset its "injured" (sick, lame, lazy) … in the civy world many comparable levels of injury are regarded as being DISABLED … fight for your rights :)

Reality Check - too many personnel won't we reading Newsnight blog (so family/friends pse pass on)

vikingar

Why cant we have a situation where by all licence payers get a amber and red button on their remote control so that if a news presenter inst up to scratch we can press the amber button - if enough people press they get electric shock ! if they are really bad we press the red button and hey-presto they disappear ! Think Paxman should be safe ! Also make over active "ego" bloggers pay for bandwidth so we dont have to read dissertations every day !

Personally I use scroll wheel ... takes two secs & works wonders :)

vikingar

A great comment from Bryan Davies (post no. 2). As a London council tax payer, I'd be only too happy not to have to pay for the Olympics but to spend the money on military hospitals.

Yes, Peter Hain was pretty good, and JP asked good questions, but surely the questions should have gone further still? If the Inspector of Constabulary is involved then are other police forces not also to be suspect? And the Ö÷²¥´óÐã Office, which is responsible for them all? Since it is known who did those killings, why was the present NI police service recently appealing for more information, as if it were not known? Since the allegations of police complicity in murders of catholics were true, why were Paisley and other unionists allowed to demonise the nationalists for their more than justified lack of confidence in the police, and use that to deny nationalists their role in the power-sharing government? Who advised Blair to allow that? Why wasn't Paisley asked about the report and that aspect?

And perhaps Newsnight would like to address the widespread belief in NI that the Belfast bank job that was used to halt power sharing after the present police chief stated that he was being told by his officers that nationalists were responsible (with no evidence displayed) was actually a retirement plan by the same Special Branch officers who had run amok in every other way already?

I look forward to a large number of pre-dawn arrests for perverting the course of justice over this, hopefully in the presence of Ö÷²¥´óÐã cameras.

It would be more to the credit of all these military people if, instead of demanding special facilities they demanded that the NHS provided properly for all who need the services they do. Clearly many need mental health services that are almost impossible to obtain, and many others need the physiotherapy, the plastic surgery, the limb replacement, and the plain treatment until as fit as possible that all NHS patients should have, but rarely manage to access.

All this about needing "military environment" and "military managers" is just bluster, trying to make out military units that depended on "soldiering on" and "make do" were as good as anyone could wish, for both the serving personnel and their families. How much of it is people wanting to be able to pull rank? I suspect many are looking across to the USA where the VA medical service, for all in, or who have ever been in the services is highly valued because it is like an exclusive NHS in a land where other contemporaries have no health care at all. But the VA care is strictly restricted compared to the NHS.

There has been an across-the-board change to integrate the military more with the rest of us, which has the big benefit of removing much of the shock so many experienced when the left the services, and has saved a lot of money. We have volunteer, professional, citzens' armed forces, not a separate caste. Yes there has been dishonesty along the way. But this stuff about people being unappreciated once they are no longer wanted by the services has been the case forever. We all tend to feel that when we leave an employment.

It was, frankly, disgraceful for JP to finally try to bully the government minister with that red herring about soldiers being asked to remove their uniform, which no one has ever been able to prove, and seems likely pure Daily Mail propaganda. You probably haven't noticed, but the British military are almost always expected to be out of uniform when outside barracks or off-base and off duty. London, for example, has a huge number of military serving and housed in and near the central area and yet you almost never notice them on the streets, for exactly that reason. They are perfectly used to that.

A very telling report which really pinpointed the questions surrounding the Government's treatment of war veterans.The minister's unconvincing answers on the numbers really gave the show away.He must be a candidate for the ultimate dunce's cap.

As a 40 something single mum , not affluent, I feel strongly that the easy assuptions about Radio 4 listeners are unfair and wildly inaccurate.
I listen to all the main Ö÷²¥´óÐã radio stations , yes, radio 1 as well because I work in a place where that station is popular.
I am thankful that it is NOT like the general media with its worship of celebrity and trivial obsessions .
The well informed and compassionate reporting from programmes such as From our own Corespondant keep me better informed about the world I live in than any paper or magazine would do. I would pay far more than the current fee for this alone .