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Dear Newsnight

By absent fathers are you referring to people who belong to poorer sections of our community or does it include middle class families where the father spends little time at home as their life is career and money centred? I suspect it probably is?
Does this represent an unintended cultural bias from your team and from those people pushing this at the moment?

best wishes
Bob Goodall

I think that David Cameron is on the right track and some of the comments on your contributors were valid but they were as knee jerk in their reactions as they claim politicians were.
The compulsion bit is not about their behaviour it's about responsibility- mothers are compelled by the benefits system to become expert in all aspects of parenting if they are to be highly successful at this and if they are not, the system still ensures a certain level of competance.these systems could be transferred. i am also extremely dissapointed and angry with newsnight for not having a mothers representative how disgustingly, glaringly a QED of the basic premise that men and women do not work together in this, i would never have believed newsnight to be so chauvinistic and misogynistic.

You can't ever force someone to care, neither government nor individuals.

What you can do government-wise is create a shift in financial bias that will eventually have an affect on people's decisions and ultimately their behaviour.

At the moment ex-fathers, rich or poor, do not contribute the full financial burden of the care of a child from birth to adulthood. So they are free to start another family when the mood takes them, which is, not surprisingly, very soon after they have left the first family home.

When two people have a baby, whether married or not, whether together or not, whether they intended to or not, the realistic cost of keeping that baby into adulthood should ALWAYS remain with BOTH parents. At the moment the burden is shouldered predominantly, almost exclusively, by women and the women's original families.

When a young teenage girl becomes pregnant the state and the girl's family usually muddle together to bring up that child, but never the father, so leaving him free to procreate again without having proved himself to have been any use to a child.

If boys and men who become father's had to be accounted for, and in these days of DNA that is not difficult, then a male should have his earnings docked at source, [and NOT for the Government's coffers either, Tory party please note] but for the child's upbringing in accordance with the upkeep of that child and any other children he has left behind.

No excuses allowed with the plea, "She tricked me." If I were a man, I would be very, very particular as to where I left my sperm, and there are only two ways that you can have that kind of control if you are a man and that is by vasectomy or condoms. Those are the bald facts guys, it's time you faced up to this.

As we women know, no contraception is 100% safe. You, as we have always had to do, will have to face the chance of an accident, again no whinging, hard luck, child on the way, must pay.

What will be the affect of all this? Well, at the moment when a marriage with children breaks up men have the freedom, [space and time and finance] to seek out a new relationship and start again. Serial monogamy is the norm now. Each new wife obviously fights for the best for her children in terms of the father's time and money to the detriment of the previous wife/partner and her children.

This is unacceptable and sets women in competition with women for limited resources. My proposal turns this around and curtails the man, not the ex-wife and children. If a man must pay realistically and fully for each of his children he will be seen as not much of a catch when his next attempt at remarrying comes along with the latest fresh young thing. She will weight him up, count the number of children he already HAS to keep realistically and move on to find a man who has been a little more responsible with his sperm and looks as though he's going to be a lot more committed in his relationship.

Men and boys are aware of this cosy little arrangement that their godfathers' patriarchies have set up for them. It's time this was exposed just as the sexual double standard has been exposed, we now need to expose the procreation double standard, then we might actually get what at the moment is an oxymoron, the 'Grown up Male'. Hope springs eternal.

Any way you cut it …..

In the UK, so much societual policy & delivery have been high jacked by liberal lefty "do-gooder" & "we know better" factions since 1960's ....

… the MINORITY on MINORITY gun culture endemic in certain minority communities & over spilling into the mainstream society, was not an inevitable event.

..... the UN rating is pretty condemning of RIGHT ON, PC & DO-GOODER interference, meddling & encroaching unworkable marco experiments imposed on the majority .. as part of attaining their 'agenda'.

No surprise, policy affecting children & such communities, is another wheel coming off the Liberal Lefty wagon, rolling alongside the unhinged wheel that is multiculturalism.

No wonder people are not looking towards the Liberal Left for answers …. they have caused so many of ours problems & are still in denial :(

The Renaissance of Rights in the UK continues apace, to readdress this imbalance.

vikingar

Vikingar (apropos #4),

taking specifically your assertion that "the UN rating is pretty condemning of RIGHT ON, PC & DO-GOODER interference, meddling & encroaching unworkable marco experiments imposed on the majority .. as part of attaining their 'agenda'" I have to wonder quite how you reach your conclusion.

Textbook examples of North-European, srong-state, interventionist social democracies (Sweden, Denmark and Finland) fill three of the four top spots in the UNICEF report, and the Netherlands (perhaps not quite as 'right-on, PC and do-gooder' as the other three, but certainly over the last few decades broadly left-liberal and interventionist) takes the top spot.

Now, the last few years have seen certain changes in that strong-state, left-liberal interventionist political culture, with the election of broadly more (economically and socially) conservative governments, but the effects of decades of that interventionist culture are surely the high-UNICEF rating we have before us.

The UK and US, where the 'right-on, PC and do-gooder' political culture has never, whatever you may say, had anywhere near the acceptance and implementation we have seen in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Finland, themselves sit near the bottom of the UNICEF report card.

I always enjoy your posts, although I frequently disagree with them. on this ocassion, however, I simply cannot see the logic behnd your assertion. Surely the evidence points more *towards the benefits* of the 'right-on, PC and do-gooder' philosophy?

Keith

The missing aspect of the discussion on road congestion is the failure of government to recognise that the growth of the population requires more investment in infrastructure, roads, rail, hospitals housing etc. Gordon Brown's short term economics boosts higher GDP growth due to immigration but fails to invest in the resources needed to support that growth. Gordon's economy works as long as you work existing assets harder but in the long term results ina very over crowded and unpleasant society. Six hundred thousand Poles alone probably account for 300,000 extra cars. It is obvious if we want to allow this growth we must invest in more roads and other infrasture.

Road pricing will favour the rich who are the main benficiciearies of Gordon's economic policies. A lower growth and a lower population would benefit the majority of the population more.

Vikingar,

thanks for getting back to me, and I trust you had an enjoyable break.

I hear what you say in your post above, but do not feel it adequately addresses my point above. My suggestion was that left-liberal interventionist societies (the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark) have achieved a degree of social cohesion and educational achievement through strong-state intervention and 'experimental interference' that we can only be envious of.

Indeed, a survey of educational priorities, standards and methods within the history of the Scandinavian school systems would reveal an ethos at once strongly interventionist and highly experimental (from the UK perspective). Unstructured, semi-structured and 'play-oriented' learning are all (or have been) encouraged within those systems from an early age, and the excellent educational results speak for themselves.

Indeed, outside of the kibbutz system, I would hazard that it would be difficult to find a first world educational system as prepared as those of the Scandinavian countries to adopt experimental teaching methods (or, to use your prior terminology, with so developed a 'right-on, PC and do-gooder' ethos). Equally, you will be hard-pressed to find educational systems with better educational outcome indicators.

One key to understanding Scandinavian education apposite to your last post is the importance placed upon integration and cohesion. I would not at all wish to claim this as a preserve solely of the liberal left (the UK tradition of 'One Nation Conservatism springs readily to mind) but would advance the thesis that the (essentially explicitly) socialist foundations of the Scandinavian educational systems *and the success of those systems in fostering 'positive social outcomes'* should not be discounted.

Turning now to your implicit suggestion, above, that the 'right-on, PC and do-gooder' attitude you discern in British pedagogy and educational administration has led to the obesity crisis, I am again confused as to quite how you reach your conclusion. Both Sweden and Finland offer free school meals to all children in school, and Norway and the Netherlands join both of these countries in providing free milk to all school children. This used to be the case in Brtain, and it was not a left-liberal government that removed this provision... Physical education also forms an essential part, throughout school, of the general education of children in Sweden, Denmark and Finland.

I am not at all claiming that we should adopt the educational systems of those countries; nor am I suggesting that their methods represent a panacea for our ills; nor even that those systems are without serious faults.

What I am suggesting, as in my comment above, is that I cannot see how you manage to equate your assertion of a decline in social cohesion and public health can be attributed to 'liberal left' strategies in education *when these have worked so well elsewhere*.

The liberal left (in the countries mentioned) are, we might suggest, responsible for several generations of fit, well-behaved, socially aware, non-obese and well-educated children.

Perhaps you should be arguing for *greater* intervention, a *return* to free school meals and free school milk, *greater* reliance upon unconventional teaching methods and so on.

Perhaps it is the case that education in the UK *has not gone far enough* down the path of the 'right-on, PC and do-gooder' ethos?

I remain yours,

Keith

(PS - and I hope I can be chatty here, as who else is going to be looking back at old Newsnight discussion blogs? - where did you get that name? It's the name of a Viking education centre and sports facility in a small Scottish town called Largs, you know...)

Ref keith fleming #8

"My suggestion was that left-liberal interventionist societies (the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark) have achieved a degree of social cohesion and educational achievement through strong-state intervention and 'experimental interference' that we can only be envious of"

Yep, perhaps, to a degree, but how sustainable & affordable is it.

That’s them, we are us.

Socialism in all its varying forms in mainland Europe is spluttering.
Long on dishing it out (rights/resources) short on pulling it in (revenue).

What is desirable s is increasingly becoming unaffordable e.g. look to France & their current debate.

EXAMPLE:

I work in a large global firm, colleagues in UK, France & Holland & North America, facing another reorg.

What's the differences in benefits & employment terms.

- France - up to 11 months notice, generous package, nearly impossible to dismiss over 50+

- Holland - up to 70% of salary paid for 2 years (by state)

- North America (hire Monday, fire Tuesday)

- UK : minimum of two weeks money & 1-3 months notice (depending on numbers effected & contract) & other discretionary money available & access to Employment Tribunals.

SUMMARY

If the UK followed French & Dutch example above, we as a nation would cease to function, period.

There are many things we can align, but their attitude & cultural differences, inherent in different nations.

For me - its IN EUROPE not RUN BY EUROPE

btw - ref 'kibbutz' [1a] [1b]

ref name = ancestry? & yours?

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]

Vikingar,

this is tendentious in the extreme.

You formed a hypothesis at #4: that 'liberal left' policy in the UK is responsible for the low UNICEF score.

This is a testable hypothesis: we can look at other countries scores on the very league table you use to support your hypothesis and examine their social policies. If those countries pursuing left liberal policies all appear towards the bottom of the UNICEF table, your hypothesis will have received support. If, however, left liberal countries are not clustered around the bottom of the table, it seems that your original hypothesis requires reconsideration.

On closer examination, the architecture of social policy in those countries that have performed well in the league table you cite as evidence of the failure of liberal left policy are themselves examples of left liberal policy frameworks. How can left liberal policy (and left liberal policy alone) account for the state of a nation, social responsibility, obesity, educational achievement, etc. when we have perfectly good examples of countries where those policies have had entirely the opposite effect?

Now, if you wish to backtrack and remove all reference to the UNICEF report, and wish to cease using this as evidence of the failure of left liberal policy, we no longer have any disagreement.

You see, I have not personally advanced left liberal policy as some sort of panacea. All I have attempted to do thoughout this discussion is challenge your original assertion (regarding the UNICEF score being an indictment of left liberal social policy) as self-evidently flawed.

Just saying something over and over again does not make it so.

Keith

I have decided to comment on this following a very successful completion of juniour school by my son whom I would describe as a blessing and every single teacher expressed how they enjoyed teaching him. Some teaching staff didnt even know that my son lives with mum.Report from one of the teacher was that he always has a smile on his face. I would appreciate if Ö÷²¥´óÐã could do a repeat programme that is positive.Its always been my wish to get people like myslef and my son, and others out there who have positive and evidence that as single black mothers with a black boys have done a tremendous job in bringing up our children to become good citizens and educate other mothers and children in similar situations and inspire them. Your programme in a way affected my son in that being 10 years old at the time , he strongly believed that his own life will be messed up because he grew up from divorced parents and that he is black ( dad not living at home). I had to do a lot of work to get this idea out of his head. I am very proud parent for managing to bring up a very confident, respectful and happy boy on my own. His juniuor school is a living example of my son experience, as the reports, parents evening showed it all how just the two of us are making it successfully with dad not being around. It is always wonderful to hear positive feed back from other people about my son. My son is now into athletics and again it was through one of the teachers that his talent was noticed and told my son to ask me to make him join our local athletics club. I have a lot of positive things to say about my experience in bringing up my son alone, and ability to deal with my son experiencing issues of racism, growing up and living with mum.Above all I must say I am a very proud parent and my son and myself have got a lot to offer to parents and children in similar situtaions.