Ö÷²¥´óÐã

As often as he let himself be seen
We pitied him, or scorned him, or deplored
The inscrutable profusion of the Lord
Who shaped as one of us a thing so mean—
Who made him human when he might have been
A ahmadinejad

I am hopeful that on Thursday there will be some discussion, or at the very least an acknowledgment of, some of the public's misgivings over the soldiers' rapid, Big Brother-like 'cave-in' before Iranian cameras. If the 'Have Your Say' forums are anything to go by, a significant section of the public is ill at ease with their conduct. Amongst the contributors there, some ex-servicemen seem to be as ashamed as the public (rightly or wrongly). Perhaps it's a question worth raising? I love Newsnight and rely on you to be the ones who go a bit beyond the implicit media taboos, a category into which this subject seems to have fallen. I for one am somewhat unclear about the expectations we should have for the conduct of captured personnel: the conventional view seems to be that one should resist as long as humanly possible but perhaps that isn't the case in this situation and the soldiers are receiving much undue (if publicly muted) criticism. Or perhaps not. I'd love to see this explored a bit.

A view never explored ??

Regarding the British Navy personnel captured in the Persian Gulf, I believe the British government tried to spin the British public opinion and the world against Iranian regime who is defying the west over Nuclear issue.
The British government thought by provoking Iranian revolutionary guard in Persian Gulf ,they would show the public how barbaric Iranian regime can be and the international community should deal with them only by force .
However it looks that Iranian realised and bit the British government to it by spinning the whole show in their favour.

A viewer
Amir

I am pretty fed up with Tony Blair's mis-use of religious phrases such as "rejoice" and am increasingly angry that he seems to refuse to bear no personal responsibility for the chaos that now exists in Iraq and the utter illegality of the invasion.

He surely also knows that the majority of the violence is perpetrated by Sunnis with the support of so-called "friendly" countries such as Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

He will now sit four-square beside Goerge Bush when Iran's nuclear facilities are bombed.

Having watched the events unfold on the Ö÷²¥´óÐã of the safe homecoming of the 15 service personnel held in Iran for 13 days, I do not think that today is the day for questions. I think that today is the day for the released 15 to be reunited with their families and to settle back into freedom. They have clearly been held under great stress and duration and now need time to adjust from their ordeal. Not to mention their families. There are questions to be asked and answers given, but I do not think now is the time. I am relieved that they have all been released safe and well and have been reunited with their families as soon as possible. We must remember that as they and their families celebrate their safe release and homecoming, very sadly we have four families grieving tonight for loved ones lost in Iraq. My thoughts are with them tonight.

With reference to post 4: how is 'rejoice' misused if not used as a religious phrase? Its main public resonance in the last quarter of a century was Thatcher's use of it over Argentina. Anyway, aren't we atheists allowed to rejoice at anything, just because some hymns and canticles use the word? You might as well accuse people of misusing the word 'forgive' if it isn't within a Christian context. So arrogant. Words are there for everybody; don't hijack them.

Re. Mr Brantley No.2: I believe it used to be the policy to only gave name, rank etc but the suggestion I have read is that captives are now encouraged to cooperate if they believe it will help safeguard their safety and that of their colleagues and that any statements they make, such as those made by the sailors in Iran are so ludicrous as to be meaningless.
Obviously they should not reveal 'secrets' but can make their own judgements in the situation with the priority being on their own safety.

Ref Amir #3

Ref British tactics dealing with lethal clowns in charge of Iranian circus.

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen" - Winston Churchill quotes

vikingar

Ref Amir #3

Iran is further ridiculed (if that was possible) by the demonstrable lack of statesmanship in its policy, internal squabbles, inept decision making, rationale for hostage taking, piss-poor comms/media management & a 'standard' of propaganda which would not fool kids. The only people 'convinced' by Iranian performance, already excuse Iran's existing litany of oppressive & murderous calamitous policies/actions.

Iran is a failing & radical state. Pathetically lethal.

Given British tactics dealing with lethal clowns in charge of Iranian circus, mindful of wise words:

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen" - Winston Churchill quotes

vikingar

Ruth Kelly has launched her 'battle to win the hearts and minds of the muslim communities' within her capacity as community minister.

Two words : community minister and battle,(okey three words)
Since when have we had a community minister? that one must have passed me by whilst i was on holiday because i like to think i have my finger on the pulse of interesting and important changes, email me next time will you.

Its a battle, is it Ruth, really. Save our money Ruth and spend it on a report that can help us understand the govt immigration policy that is dismantaling all that was good and safe in this country and changing it into a fragmented and problematic society. Can i guess that within this said report, that its finding will say= within the last 10 years the immigration policy coupled with islamification within our cities have made the UK a more dangerous place to live and the expectation for the indiginous population to tolerate the changing makeup of their communites was always an unreasonably high hope. But no, we have a battle to win hearts and minds of our muslim communities, well i suppose it will give Trevour Phillips something else for him to add to his already full in tray.
The battle was lost centuries ago Ruth..happy easter.

( will the moderater let this post through? probably not)

when in Rome.....don't wear a man utd shirt

Crucifixion day. When the paranoid religious right persuaded the dominant superpower ,through bearing false witness, to use the instrument of the military as a tool of political power.

The news hasn't really changed in 2000 years?

Neither has the entertainment?

Nice to see people enjoying animal cruelty in what is left of the old roman circus? The middle east has become a bit of a roman circus. A spectacle watched by millions where people die by the hundred. So it was quite natural to discover an artist who painted bullfights also painted stuff about iraq. Maybe it is the similarity that attracted him?

"The anatomy of hostage taking?" How can what you offered us possibly be called an exploration?

What on earth had Karma Nabulsi's comments about Israel (given her known anti-Israel bias) to do with the Iranian capture of the sailors and marines? Why was the spurious connection made, if not to engage in yet another Israel-bashing charade?

Why was not a representative of the Israeli government interviewed to counteract Nabulsi's poisonous propaganda?

Mind you, this is nothing new, is it? The sooner the Balen Report is in the public domain, the better.

I've been trying to find the right words to comment on this programme, but words fail me. Karma Nabulsi?- chosen to comment on hostage-taking?- when the Ö÷²¥´óÐã surely must be aware of her pro-Palestinian credentials? Don't tell me the Ö÷²¥´óÐã didn't expect her to take a gratuitous swipe at Israel (what does Israel have to do with Iranian hostage-taking? Hasn't poor Israel enough to worry about over the hostages taken by Hamas and Hizbolah, who may, or may not, still be alive, no-one knows?) For heaven's sake Ö÷²¥´óÐã, stop bashing Israel. Perhaps there's a very good reason why you're trying to stop the Balen Report being published?

What I want to know is why not one of our patriarchs via the media commented on the fact that their patriarchs stripped a sailor of her uniform and placed her in a headscarf? Did we have the men stripped of their uniforms and put in kufi hats? What a huge fuss the media would have made of that. But hey, this was only a women being humiliated, so that's OK then init.

Man proposes and God disposes. We can have our plans and schemes, but it is up to He who is above to hand out the results.

Ahmadinejad won. It's Munich 1938 all over again. He kidnapped your sailors right out from under your Navy's nose in Iraqi waters, he held them captive, he abused them, and then when he let them go, he made it look like a great humanitarian gesture and wants to be rewarded. With one clearcut case of violation of international law after another, all those liberal screamers who yammer about things they know nothing about didn't say one word in protest. And when the President of the United States called the illegal captives "hostages" the British government said it didn't help matters any to antagonize Iran. It hardly seems it's worth any effort on America's part to try to help save Britain yet again, the UK is already a lost cause. Britain, you are hopeless. Contaminated by continental politics, your government and a lot of your people have become Eurofools. The rest have left or are planning to.

As for the hostages themselves, all I can do is quote Shakespeare; "coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave die but once." Those captives face a lifetime of torment and self doubt for their cowardice in battle and that includes all of their commanding officers who stood by helplessly. Britain has become a nation of rabbits.

I see the pro-Israeli loby have arrived! The report (which you appear to have slept through) was about the phenomenon of hostage taking, in light of recent events. Mention included the kidnap of Alan Johnston, believed to have been by Palestinians and the Israeli Olympic team held in Munich.
From memory the correspondent then states something along the lines that hostage taken is considered to have been a phenomenon originating with Arab/Muslim terrorists. Although some disagree. Palestians, such as Karma Nabulsi think Israel is guilty of taking civilians as hostages/prisoners. Of course she is Pro-Palestinian! That is her opinion!
Imagine having Tony Blair on Newsnight when the Ö÷²¥´óÐã must surely be aware of his pro-Labour views!
Do you think if Balen looked at your comments he would find any merit in them?
I hear someone once said 'courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen'.

I imagine as the Navy personnel saw the Iranians coming they had to immediately start filling out the Health+Safety forms, have some stratgey meetings, and radio their ship who in turn would have radioed someone in the UK. of course they ran out of time and were captured.....

To Mark (Message 20):

As on previous occasions, you seem capable only of seeing things in militaristic terms. It may have been Britain's military which was involved in this episode, but their function here was essentially as policemen, not soldiers. To talk of "cowardice in battle" is a complete nonsense for it both misunderstands the situation and misrepresents it, for it was nothing whatsoever to do with "battle".

Although you state "Ahmadinejad won", I think this, too, misjudges the case. What we know is that hard-liners, close to Ahmadinejad, were calling for trials and executions. Then all that suddenly went quiet, and out of the blue the captives were released, taking everyone (in the "west", that is) by surprise. Why this abrupt change? Certainly, the British government had not been expecting it. It's most likely, then, the reason for the change lies inside the Iranian regime itself, and it wasn't Ahmadinejad's hard liners who prevailed. Yes, he was able to play the release for all it was worth, but I think that hides the true position. Inside Iran, those opposed to Ahmadinejad have been able to exploit the inexplicable change of face to their advantage.

And, in the wider world, taking these people captive has made Iran's position much more difficult. It's a declaration for all to see of how unreasonable, disingenuous and dangerous the Iranian regime is. How can the world risk any possibility of this unstable regime getting access to nuclear weapons?

becuase no one was executed.
they got home safe.
i am sure they didnt have a good time but they did survive and that is the most important part.