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Talk about Newsnight

Newsnight

Monday, 20th August, 2007

  • Newsnight
  • 20 Aug 07, 05:29 PM

basra1203pg.jpg"The British have realised this is not a war they should be fighting, or one they can win."

"There is now a clear recognition that the objectives of their mission cannot be achieved"

The first quote is from the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, from an interview in today's Independent newspaper, and the second is contained in a letter from the Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell to the Prime Minister calling for the British forces to leave Iraq. Meanwhile British forces in Basra are vulnerable to increasing rocket attacks from insurgent s in the desert on their encampment, apparently as many as ten a week. Tonight we'll be assessing whether the British military has "lost" Basra, and, if we have, are we staying there because of transatlantic pressure?

The tents and the banners are coming down and the campfires are cold. Was the week long protest - fest at Heathrow over global warming and airport expansion a damp squib? Is there climate change fatigue - the leading article in the new edition of Ecologist magazine seems to suggest there is. But is that because companies and local authorities have responded to pressure and adopted climate friendlier policies? Is there a lack of leadership from politicians, who once told us that global warming was the biggest threat facing the planet? Or is it because the pollution threat from China and India is so grave, it seems futile for individuals to make tough lifestyle choices which have a miniscule impact.

The Reverend Jesse Jackson is in London to launch Equanomics, an organisation dedicated to the promotion of black leaders in business politics and industry. He was the founder of Operation Push in the states in the early eighties which became the Rainbow Push coalition, and I'll be asking him why he thinks Britain seems resistant to black power.

From Elton John to Roman Abramovitch - owning a football club is a prestigious and expensive business, and not for the faint-hearted, but the new proprietor of Manchester City is perhaps the most controversial yet. The former Prime Minister of Thailand, Thaksin Shinawatra is spending millions on the club, but back home in Thailand, the country he fled after being ousted in a military coup, he's being prosecuted for corruption, and human rights groups say his record on human rights alone should bar him from owning a football club. We have a profile of a man who is, at least, popular in parts of Manchester.

Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 06:39 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • Mike Constable wrote:

Yet again, Newsnight is mainly devoted to Iraq and climate change. There are other things going in the world.

  • 2.
  • At 06:46 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • Colin wrote:

I agree with the other comment; Iraq .... boring.
Have a look at Euronews every now and again ... did that happen today i keep asking myself! Sometimes Sky, ITN and the 主播大秀 run stories in the same order. More people die in natural disasters each week somewhere on this planet

  • 3.
  • At 07:01 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • Brian J Dickenson wrote:

We have been over Iraq-ed, the public in general were against the invasion, now it's time to admit it was the wrong thing to do, poodle Blair is history, Brown should make the move.

Global warming is no doubt a fact, however, what the causes are is still open to question. The earths weather has been subject to massive changes for millions of years, without any input from us.
One thing that is not in doubt is that there is lots of money being made, while governments promote fear and keep us from seeing the real problems they sneak by us.

  • 4.
  • At 08:41 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • r wrote:

wonder if kirsty has seen the middle pages of todays media supplement in the independent? remember some old times...

Sadr/Campbell: How pleasing that a Briton and an Iraqi are both speaking equally, speaking freely, and speaking the truth.

The Heathrow protestors: They have achieved publicity for their cause. The weather has been against them though. The cool summer has made more people disregard the global warming warnings.

Thaksin: he might have abused human rights in Thailand, but 99% of the population is doing the same. So can he really be blamed? When in Rome do as the Romans do.
On the other hand, it does not put a morally sound gloss on our nation to be harbouring (as we are) hundreds or thousands of highly dubious international mega-rich who are wanted in their own countries - and others - for perpetrating all sorts of misdemeanours.


  • 6.
  • At 10:47 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • Alan C wrote:

Campbell didn鈥檛 quite finish his thought. What he meant to say was:

"There is now a clear recognition that the objectives of their mission cannot be achieved without the necessary leadership, manpower, materiel and public support needed to achieve them."

There, that makes much more sense. Now let鈥檚 get on with the withdrawal and leave the Iraqis to the head-drillers, throat-slitters and mass-casuality suicide bombers. G*d knows, we did our best鈥idn鈥檛 we?

NOT MENTIONING THE WAR

At some point we will all have to stand and watch as Blair is given an honour, and even a statue. That is the traditional way we British behave when the despicable and dishonoured retire from high office. No doubt the perennially undebaggable Lord Archer will deliver a eulogy; and I am open to suggestions as to who should unveil his statue. (We can only hope it will have an imperceptibly over-long nose.) Blair did not get to the top by merit. Plot his course from wannabe 鈥渁nything up there鈥 to tyrant; he was never much good at anything except grinning. Brown is no more honourable 鈥 just less in-yer-face annoying. Until we change the system we will continue to get these ghastly carbuncles* as Prime Ministers. We need a revolution but we Brits just don鈥檛 know how. *My thanks to Prince Charles.

  • 8.
  • At 11:04 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • Craig wrote:

Does no one at the Beeb have any shame. Ramming climate change down our throats when you have a presenter flying in from Scotland every week.

Give us all a break and walk the walk or button it!

  • 9.
  • At 11:10 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • Vin Dixon wrote:

I think that reverend Jackson has a point in regards to Black people needing to be more representative in business and politics. What he need to realise is that Britain does not compare progress for black people in this country with America, they realise that this is a non starter. The British will look at themselves in comparison to other European countries

  • 10.
  • At 11:26 PM on 20 Aug 2007,
  • coanda wrote:

Green experts are taking the wrong tack - they should be getting government to fund industrialisation of greener technologies for all industries, instead of guilt tripping the generally ill-informed public into believing that its all their fault.

Taking aerospace specifically - if the government were to (properly) fund technology programs to fast track available research we could probably cut emissions by 25-40% when incorporating all avenues in both the aerodynamic and propulsion field.

Further fuel savings can be found by funding (from within europe) the new european air traffic control system so that it happens within the next decade.

Did you know that it is possible to produce a fully electric high-bypass ratio engine which would drastically slash the amount of fuel required by an aircraft (you only need fuel for the generator)? We don't have this engine because it doesn't get enough funding, from within propulsion companies and the central government.

In all cases the funding is required to develop research into an industrial technology - as the industry is funded now, these technologies will trickle through, taking decades to make it to market.

If we are to tackle this issue, government and industry have to work together to fund projects adequately such that progress is made within 5 years and not 15 - time to forget about profit margins in the short term.

The last time the government worked together like this was the 2nd world war. Which is why this will never happen again....

  • 11.
  • At 12:18 AM on 21 Aug 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

BLACK POWER?

Jesse Jackons call for affirmative action in the workplace for members of Britain's black communities, is the wrong US policy (failed) for the UK.

The British economy & workplace is a relative meritocracy in terms of the relative ascension of talent, its does not need the ultimate form of PC'ism enforced on the labour market. It will only breed resentment as its a backward step (obviously not for those in the Race Relations industry who stand to make money from the management & policing of such).

It was refreshing earlier on the Beeb ref Jesse Jackson story, to see members of a black community program, looking to redirect the negative desires of black youth away from crime into more positive attributes to be displayed in mainstream business (although rather ambitious, its ball park in the right area, if your interested in money do it legitimately). But they also called of boycotts of firms or embrace of firms, dependent on the number of black senior management it has, is farcical. It鈥檚 a generational thing to foster talent & either you have the talent in play or you do not. Are you wise to select a middle manager on 拢40,000 (responsible for 6+ people) & elevate him to the boardroom to manage hundreds on people for 拢100,000?. Odds are they are not experienced for the job, they will fail, the firms impacted & it only breeds resentment. In the face of such formal impositions other informal glass ceilings will descend (human nature).

IRAQ?

Cut & run or bunker in, unfortunately the latter methinks, until we get an real idea of how things will pan out, when the locals are let fully loose at each other.

HEATHROW?

Totally 'designer' right on damp squib.

The public are the getting the message 鈥.. that the environmental movement is steadily being high jacked by lefty forces (supported by sameo rent-a-mobs) who are exploiting the real issue of pollution for their own bankrupted political aims (which the public has never endorsed 鈥 nor will).

Its not solely lack of leadership, it鈥檚 a lack of credible science & sincerity that the environmental movement is bereft off, within this vacuum, they are just making it up as they go along.

Also targeting the general public (at holiday time) at airports after recent REAL TERRORISM incident 鈥. was a rather huge badly timed own goal. They should have targeted travel offices & better still, airline premises offices.

Best ironic bit this week, was the Global Warming 'gloom & doom' loons 鈥 picketing a Nuclear Power station (the only proven bulk & sustainable generator of electricity & credible alternative to fossil fuels) [1]

Funnily enough, were not similar political nuclear disarmament groups doing similar in the 鈥 80's & the 90s & now in 21st Century .. Lordy Lordy what a surprise !

vikingar

[1]

  • 12.
  • At 12:27 AM on 21 Aug 2007,
  • Bob Goodall wrote:

Dear Newsnight

just more questions,

Does the media ever look beyond the surface of events?

I both admire anyone who gets up and does something, but not all actions can move an issue forwards,

and we need a modern society to look after groups under represented in the camp near Heathrow, the old the sick etc, we need a modern energy hungry society to look after the weaker members of our community, not the sort in the protests, predominantly young fit etc

that said, well done to them, its a good start

and another question, why are most of us so weak and lacking any fighting spirit to make the world a better place

so weak, mouse like, why? what has happened to our country?

best wishes
Bob

  • 13.
  • At 12:55 AM on 21 Aug 2007,
  • brossen99 wrote:

It would appear that the general public have become tired with the quasi- religion of man made climate change, perhaps because the eco-fascists are increasingly being seen as part of the problem. The fact that mainstream eco-fascists continually reject Nuclear power as an option for reducing CO2 and support pollution generating schemes like traffic calming significantly undermines any case they might have. Most of the policies of the eco-fascists are an insult to to the intelligence of the scientifically educated, anyone with a working brain can see that the best of disposing of the waste mountain is to incinerate it and generate potentially cheap electricity.

Eco-fascism is poisoning the democratic process and preventing government from doing the things they need to do to ensure our economic and energy future. That is not to say that airport expansion is desirable, but when it comes to cutting overall pollution more fuel efficient aircraft must be part of the solution. Likewise road transport pollution could be reduced by getting rid of the tight roundabouts at lightly used junctions on trunk roads. Raising the speed limit back to where it was 20 years ago on many major urban roads where it is safe to do so could also reduce pollution. Once again its the greens favorite road safety quasi-religion which prevents this and continually adds to pollution with ideas like blanket 20 Mph zones. It all goes into extra road fuel tax to fund useless wind farms, Blair can say we want 20% renewables when he is likely to go and live in the US and avoid the potential power cuts.

Perhaps eco-fascism is a far greater threat to the future of our country than Islamic fundamentalists can ever be.

  • 14.
  • At 12:23 PM on 21 Aug 2007,
  • csharp wrote:

iraq

maybe a uk withdrawal will precipitate a true un involvement?

iraqis can be 'trained' away from danger zones although from what i see they need no training in combat.

all we are doing is giving the militias cheap and easy victories that helps them entrench their control over the public.

there is no honour in persisting in stupidity?

  • 15.
  • At 11:53 PM on 21 Aug 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref csharp #14

"maybe a uk withdrawal will precipitate a true un involvement?"

ahherrm ... where will the forces come from & who will fund such?

Don't see anyone committing sufficient forces & the west is not going to directly fund various political groups linked to extremism, from afar.

Without US & UK involvement, given the continuing 1,500 year old schism in Islam (Sunni v Shia) such will not produce any acceptable & effective forces either.

Yes its bad at present, but it can get a whole lot worse.

vikingar

  • 16.
  • At 11:32 PM on 30 Aug 2007,
  • Martin wrote:

Can we expect Gordon Brown to be surrounded by 4 hostile journalists when he finally decides to ordain the 主播大秀 with an interview?

Or will Newsnight wheel out the usual suspects (Scottish Labour friendly journalists like Kirsty Wark & Andrew Marr for example) that let Brown simply sit there and spout his dribble for 45 minutes?

I won't hold my breath for Brown getting a hard time off the 主播大秀 (it hasn't happened yet)

  • 17.
  • At 11:43 PM on 30 Aug 2007,
  • Martin wrote:

brossen99 - You are spot on. The 主播大秀 is obsessed with this Global Warming drivel. On Radio 5 the other day Simon Mayo came out with a statement that claimed "90% of scientists agree that man is responsible for global warming. No evidence was given to support this view, it wasn't given as a personal opinion by Mr Mayo and in fact the statement is factually incorrect.

And I for one get rather angry with the 主播大秀 that blabbers on about flying and how we need to increase the cost of flying, yet the 主播大秀 is one of the biggest wasters when it comes to air travel (no doubt the 主播大秀 will simply ask for a TV licence fee increase to pay for increased flying costs?)

Why does the 主播大秀 feel the need to have reporters for each channel? 主播大秀1, Newsnight, 主播大秀 News 24, Radio 4, Radio 5 & Radio 2 all seem to have their own political reporter, economics reporter and so on. Why? Sky manage with one.

If the 主播大秀 had to raise their own money, boy would they get a shock. But then again, no left wing Socialist holiday camp has ever made money. Be it the 主播大秀, British Leyland or that awful left wing paper that failed in the 1980's. Even the Guardian needs tax payers money (through public job adverts) to keep it going.

  • 18.
  • At 03:44 PM on 14 Apr 2008,
  • allan hammond wrote:

Why is everyone so scared to speak out against global warming and mans so called supposed part in this process, and why won't the 主播大秀 allow both sides of the arguement to develop. A case in point was Andrew Marrs programme on Sunday 6th April when interviewing Nigel Lawson on this subject. He mentioned that Nigel Lawson had published a book on the myths of Global Warming but failed to mention the title and any further details. He also mentioned that Nigel Lawson had failed to find a publisher in this country and had to go to the States for publication. What are these people scared of??. I have never seen this occurrence with any other author or book, it was an obvious case of prejudice by the 主播大秀 when it comes to the Global warming subject. The 主播大秀 is an
obvious 'blocker' when it comes to speaking out against the subject.
Its about time that it was realised that we are being brain washed for the goverments convenience to achieve more money for the government to waste, and its about time that people started speaking out against this obvious scam. I have mixed around in all sorts of life and society and have found the majority of people agreeing with my point of view. By the way I have since sauced Nigel Lawsons book and have ordered a copy.
Title "An Appeal to Reason" A cool look at Global Warming.

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