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Monday, 19 November, 2007

  • Newsnight
  • 19 Nov 07, 06:14 PM

Northern Rock
Alistair DarlingThe Chancellor has . The mortgage lender has revealed that bids from potential investors fall below the current market value of the business. Alistair Darling said any proposal on the future ownership of the bank would have to be approved by the government. But will taxpayers really get all their money back with interest? Stephanie Flanders and Michael Crick are on the case. And we'll be debating the political fallout for the chancellor and the Government.

Climate Change
Gordon Brown to make Britain a world leader in the battle against global warming, with a green "technological revolution" which he said could create hundreds of thousands of jobs in the UK. In his first major speech on the environment since becoming Prime Minister, Mr Brown hinted strongly that he is ready to extend the Government's target of a 60% cut in Britain's greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, revealing that he has asked an independent committee of experts to look at the possibility of an 80% goal. But does the Prime Minster's rhetoric make sense in reality when the Government is set to back the expansion of Heathrow later this week? Science Editor, Susan Watts investigates. And we hope an Environment Minister and the director of Greenpeace will go head to head on this story.

Burma
The heads of state of the association of south-east Asian countries currently meeting in Singapore will tomorrow- which all sounds fair and sensible enough until you remember that Burma is one of Asean's members. UN special envoy to Burma, who recently met with some of the top Generals and the country's democratically elected leader, , whose been under effective house arrest for the last fifteen years, was invited to the summit to brief Asean's heads of state but earlier today the Burmese delegation objected and that briefing has now been cancelled. But what's actually happening inside Burma? We asked Sue Lloyd-Roberts to go into Burma undercover to find out how life has been for the people and what going on with the country's underground pro-democracy movement. See her powerful report tonight.
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Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 06:53 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Nick Mott wrote:

'Novermber' should be spelt: 'November'

:-)

Thanks Nick - this has been corrected. Apologies for dodgy typing. Ian

I stumbled a bit over 'an' Environment Minister (how many of them are there? Or need?), that Newsnight still thinks one of their classic twofers - between a stonewalling 'the word of the Gord; and it is good' pol and an activist - will get the majority of the population stuck in the middle any further ahead in understanding where we are and what we need to do that's best for the future, pretty much sums up just how far down the pan the planet really is headed.

Next we'll be getting travel tips from the hugely qualified 'team' (how many, Freedom of Information request-wise, are going?) packing their factor 15 for the Bali jolly... er... trip. Doubtless once there they will hook up round the pool with the aforementioned pols(s) and activist directors to figure how best to tell the rest of us what not to do and what it will cost us.

New brooms all round, please.

May I commend an article which explains the Northern Rock situation and puts it in the context of global stupidity?

And When I first heard of Northern Rock, I thought of Dire Straits and "money for nothin' and our chits worth Pee!" - How true!

Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed

Quit worrying about your health. It'll go away.
-- Robert Orben

It looks like that Gordon Brown has become far too open minded towards the eco-fascists that his brain has fallen out. There is no way that the UK can meet a 60% cut in CO2 emissions without destroying millions of UK jobs unless we build up to 50 new nuclear power stations. When is Brown going to come clean on this one, the eco-fascists will all squeal like stuck pigs. Its going to be bad enough getting the go ahead for the Severn Barrage, and nobody even mentions Morecambe Bay which the eco-fascists will also oppose. Perhaps like the Isle of Man we could get 10% of our electricity from household waste incineration, then there would be no need to worry about excessive packaging or the plastic carrier bags.

Perhaps the ( usually wealthy ) eco-fascist elite are part of the problem when deciding the true future of our country. It would appear that they would welcome turning the UK into a third world country where all the rich bar-stewards fly around in private jets or helicopters and drive gas guzzlers whilst everybody else has to walk and freeze to death in winter. I'm glad that I don't have any children and will probably be dead before 2050.

As far the Northern Rock fiasco is concerned it just shows how much false money is floating around in our economy. The only sensible thing to do is to nationalize it without compensation to shareholders as has been said. Perhaps in a couple of years the government could re-float the company on the stock exchange and get more than its money back. In the meantime anyone who failed to keep up with their payments could have their home taken over and turned into a much needed council house.

Its a pity that with all the other important stuff you didn't have time to cover the proposed changes to Incapacity Benefit entitlement. The 主播大秀 News web site poll suggests that their are still plenty of ten bob fat cat potential Nazis out there. Perhaps one day they will become permanently ill.

  • 6.
  • At 10:53 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • john wrote:

Just heard John McFall MP on Newsnight. He advised that the Northern Rock fiasco is due to failed management and executives, adhering to a flawed and risky business model.

Strange then, that one of the ousted Directors, Sir Derek Wanless, is collecting an Honorary Business Doctorate from Coventry Cathedral tomorrow.

Booted out for failure and incompetence on Friday 16 November, collects Honorary Business Doctorate from Coventry Uni' on November 20.

You couldn't make it up !!

  • 7.
  • At 10:56 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Diane wrote:

Why are they all wittering on about renewables now? Many people have been urging renewables on many UK governments for about 30 years now. Nothing has been done yet and it seems nothing has changed.

  • 8.
  • At 11:04 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Dominic wrote:

Yet more eco-twaddle propaganda. Boring and misleading.

  • 9.
  • At 11:24 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Mike Hanlon wrote:

Nothing about MPs debating the European Communities (Finance) Bill today then?

Trust you're going to do something on it tomorrow.

Failing to even mention MPs voting an extra 拢7bn to the EU - a mere week after it failed its audit for the 13th year in a row - would be an utter dereliction of duty!

If you don't shine a light on such blatant waste of vast sums, few people hear about it, MPs start to think they can get away with anything, and our democracy is all the poorer.

  • 10.
  • At 11:27 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

CLIMATE SHORT CHANGE

It is so painfully obvious that Brown鈥檚 advisors meet 鈥 just as Blair鈥檚 did 鈥 to decide: not what can be done about CO2 emissions, but WHAT SHOULD BE ANNOUNCED. Arising from this is the question: what percentage of the voting population BELIEVE what any Prime Minister now tells them? It is all so depressingly dishonest and improper. Why do we end up with charlatans running our affairs? The only difference between Blair and Brown is that Blair could fool more of the people more of the time. Remember Estelle Morris? She wanted to resign because she felt she had behaved less than honourably (Blair said no need 鈥淭here are ways鈥). Ms Morris epitomised the level of integrity that must prevail, or democracy is not worth the paper it is wiped on. As for Blair鈥檚 comment to Ms Morris: it tells you all that you already knew of him. But I say again: how did we elevate this terrible man to a position where he could decide 60 million Britons had given him carte blanche to strike anywhere in the world ON HIS OWN BELIEF? But more to the point: as we watch small minded Gordon in his desperate attempts to be greater than 鈥淕reat Blair鈥 (that dazzling star-constellation) what other terrible, stupid follies might HE enact in our name?

  • 11.
  • At 11:31 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Rising Sealevel wrote:

Over the last 10 years the government has allowed, nay encouraged, financial institutions to loan money recklessly. They allowed all sorts of financial wizardry packaging up loans and selling them on in an effort to make city people prosper. They have failed to regulate those institutions, clearly on purpose, because they wanted a sort of financial bonanza with all and sundry having access to unlimited credit - seeing this as a means towards their holy grail of economic growth.

It is peculiar that in the meantime Gordon Brown has become associated with the word Prudence.

One of the banks gets itself into trouble by being over-excessively reckless. The government bails it out with a huge sum of taxpayers money. Wasting taxpayers money that could have been spent much more wisely and usefully. Now banks know that the government won't let them down, no matter what sort of mess they get themselves into. I bet Nick Leeson wishes he'd had Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling behind him to settle his accounts.

The only thing taxpayers can do, short of revolution which will never happen due to the mild British temperament, is punish the government for this bad management at the next election.

Vince Cable is an excellent politician and seems always to ask good questions in the H of C. What a shame he is not standing as leadership candidate.

  • 12.
  • At 11:36 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

Every day we discover the power of the spirit of people who believe that one faith unites them. This power can go in any direction and may be a blessing for some and an ugly curse for others. As we welcomed the new era, it was obvious that religion is back stronger than ever and more dangerous than ever. It was true that religion lost its role by the end of the last century, but its flame was rekindled in the beginning of the new Millennium. Religion is back centre-stage and it came back as one of the strongest motivating forces in the lives of many nations around the world. The spirit is alive, yes, but its reputation has been shaken and sometimes lost or destroyed especially in the Western world. Many people in the West believe that religion is the cause of most of the conflicts and bloodshed in the world at the moment and in history and therefore it plays an evil role in our human existence.

This belief comes from the fact that religious fanatics are the loudest, most dangerous and most outrageous groups. This noise they make is music to the ear of the media which welcomes sensational events as it looks hungrily for more disturbing reality shows. What can be a more exciting and riveting program than a real war live on TV?

Now, after years of religion鈥檚 bad reputation, come the monks in Burma to teach us that religion can still be a force of truth, liberation and justice. The Buddhist monks in Burma as they face jail, torture, and death, give the world a glorious example of leadership and resisting evil. Those monks are teaching us that religion is not fanaticism, hostility, polarisation and bloodshed, but rather bravery, deep faith and humility. They are a cry of awakening in the face of violence in the name of religion. They are writing with their blood, suffering and patience the new history of their nation.

We need to kneel down to raise our prayers for those courageous monks in Burma who are resisting evil in order to make prosperity bloom in the hands of their people.

  • 13.
  • At 11:43 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

Brossen99,

Just for you:

ENVIRONMENT
UN: Global Warming Threatens Extinction for One-Third of Species
White House: 鈥淲e see glass as two-thirds full.鈥

xx
ed

My mother loved children -- she would have given anything if I had been one.
-- Groucho Marx

  • 14.
  • At 11:45 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Liam Coughlan wrote:

Ed, what a wonderful contribution: the article is excellent. 主播大秀 reporting tonight indicates that the Chancellor has walked the taxpayer into a potential unwanted tax of 拢900 each. We were told that it was, a gentlemen's overdraft agreement, and that the city was sound. The Rosk of credibility that Brown has been building since he allowed the Bank of England its independence has fallen on a Northern Rock. WIth these guys on the controls, its time to remove the lifejacket from under the seat in front of you, note the emergency lighting strips, and hit the big red emergency exit button.

  • 15.
  • At 11:47 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Baz wrote:

The discussion between the government minister and the representative from Greenpeace wasn't anything like a discussion but plain bullying. Greenpeace is undemocratic and unelected and yet considers that its views and aims should be followed unquestioningly by the government.

if Greenpeace want this power, then they should put themselves up as candidates in elections. They should put up or shut up, to use the phrase. Unfortunately for them, when we look at green candidates, only two out of the 25 in the GLA are Green Party and there are no Green Party MPs in Parliament.

  • 16.
  • At 11:57 PM on 19 Nov 2007,
  • Paul S wrote:

I feel that the current debate is ignoring the lessons that could be learnt from the last round of banking failures in the UK in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

A number of small banks and finance companies ran into trouble, ostensibly for a variety of reasons, but the common thread was property lending 鈥 both on commercial property and sub-prime mortgage lending 鈥 and over-reliance on interbank funding which evaporated as the banks鈥 problems become more apparent.

One message from this period is that when a bank鈥檚 management makes serious errors in one area of the business, it is likely that they will have been weaker than their competitors in other areas. While the banks in question in the 1980s and 1990s failed because they ran out of cash, the subsequent work-outs identified imprudent lending practices and poor operational standards. Northern Rock鈥檚 management failed to understand the risk they were taking through the bank鈥檚 funding model, and we should not be surprised if we subsequently discover that they were not the best in the industry in evaluating and managing other risks, including credit quality and operational risk. The question of 鈥榩ayment holidays鈥 for Northern Rock borrowers experiencing payment difficulties may well be the tip of an iceberg, and a stagnant or falling property market will exacerbate such problems

To my mind, ignoring the question of supervision and looking solely at the position that faced the authorities when Northern Rock realised it was running out of cash, the one mistake they made was to guarantee wholesale deposits as well as retail deposits. A blanket guarantee of retail deposits would have prevented a run on other banks by the public, and the interbank market would have faced up to the challenge in the way they did with banks such as Chancery Bank, British and Commonwealth, Provincial Bank etc.

The problem the authorities have now created is that the interests of Northern Rock鈥檚 biggest creditor 鈥 the taxpayer 鈥 and the interests of the shareholders are incompatible. The share has been allowed to continue to trade despite the clear evidence that various parties have been given access to information not available to the vast majority of shareholders, and the false market has created unreasonable expectations among many shareholders.

There is clearly no prospect of a 鈥榖id鈥 for Northern Rock that will repay the Bank of England funding immediately and also be acceptable to shareholders 鈥 and it is of course shareholders who vote on a bid, not creditors.

Accordingly there are only two alternatives:

1) Allow a 鈥榖id鈥 that shareholders will accept to go ahead by committing government funding for a number of years and explicitly accepting commercial risk 鈥 i.e. losses -for the taxpayers鈥 loans. This means that some degree of subordination for the taxpayers鈥 claims would be unavoidable, and the likely future losses large. The taxpayer would then both be supporting a bank that took bad decisions and allowing a bidder to anticipate a profit at the expense of the taxpayer 鈥 moral hazard of the highest degree.

2) Recognise that if the taxpayer is to maximise the recovery of its loans, Northern Rock needs to be moved into work-out mode as quickly as possible. The mechanism is simple 鈥 if the government asks for its money back then Northern Rock has no alternative but to go into Administration. Retail depositors could be repaid in full over a relatively short period, demonstrating the 鈥榲alue鈥 of the government鈥檚 promise and restoring some degree on confidence for the man in the street. Sadly wholesale depositors would probably be able to demand repayment as well thanks to Mr Darling鈥檚 generous promise 鈥 although some of the major banks might be persuaded to stay in with a continuing undertaking from the authorities. The assets can then be realised for the benefit of the main creditor 鈥 the taxpayer 鈥 over time. The performing loan books are probably saleable without any large discount even in the current strained market, but the true level of poorly secured and problem loans will only be known once the book is under proper experienced management. The task will be large and the professional fees far from small, and the taxpayer will in all likelihood never recover its loans in full. The only consolation is that the taxpayer will not incur additional losses because of the profits being earned by a new owner, and the aggravated sore of losses for small shareholders will be over in one fell swoop 鈥 as it should have been in August.

  • 17.
  • At 12:07 AM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • Puzzled wrote:

Once upon a time there was a country which, we were told, contained a populace of patience, humour and unselfishness. They were noted for calmness under pressure and danger and with a willingness to co-operate. To judge by the media, that populace has turned into a horde of drunken, fornicating villains who think they're above the law and are unaware of anything beyond their own skins.
That being the case, global warming will be irrelevant. Well have finished ourselves off first.
It's amazing that the word restraint is still in the dictionary.
The 'interview' with Malcolm Wicks added nothing to the overall wisdom.
It was bullying and unhelpful. We had an advance warning about fuel in the seventies. Who could have guessed?

  • 18.
  • At 12:36 AM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

Brilliant Jeremy tonight (36/10)particularly with Malcolm Wicks as Jeremy asked if he was "still energy Minister?";-) ( I instantly thought of the old famous Norman Lamont interview) and John Sauven(Greenpeace) on renewable energy. I was shocked to hear that a 3rd runway at Heathrow would emit the same amount of CO2 as Kenya. I did find it amazing that Germany had made so much progress on renewable energy in such a short period of time. Sue Lloyd-Roberts' report from Burma was exceptionally good.

  • 19.
  • At 08:15 AM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

Well good golly; did that go just as I expected, predicted... and feared.

A defensive pol who got the short straw and with no hiding place, in a snit. An equally defensive media supremo on a high horse. And, actually, the guy from Greenpeace... the activist... about the only voice of calm, if not reason.

That said, we were treated to screeds of data. Targets, mainly. Missed ones even more mainly. Unachievable ones to follow, but who cares as they can be fiddled later or it won't matter to the guys who set them, as they'll have retired on the full golden well before it comes home to roost.

Was I any the wiser as a member of public, a parent... a voter... as to who had a grip on this and, more importantly, what was expected of all - government, business, media, public - and how we were going to rally around and resolve what some say is a crisis... or is it not really? We were talking second slot here. With two guys I'd never heard of as guests. In a piece on the UK's efforts to avoid global meltdown. Or not.

About the only concrete things that vaguely sunk in was some waffle about renewables, but again these were just a bunch of figures that meant nothing to me. So we catch up with Germany and end up with x% offshore, solar, tidal and whatnot by 20yy? But what's the ROI? What's the enviROI? We already are seeing vast amounts being poured into green holes by countless departments and quangos staffed by legions of salaried, pensioned paper-pushers, mainly on 'awareness' that seems to have achieved diddly squat. I must now have about a dozen ways to hand to calculate my carbon footprint, when they could have simply handed the money blown on all this to me to stick more loft insulation up to actually reduce it by a huge domestic %. Or sort out the trains. And I'm sorry, from woefully mis-informed plastic bagwagons to well-lobbied offshore projects, I simply do not trust any of this current sorry cabal of interest groups to tell me what's best for my kids, much less actually bite the bullet and get down and dirty to actually do it. Especially if there's the slightest chance that a well-feathered political nest, career or bottom line can get supported first, first-class from Valencia to Bali via Westminster. Offset of course. Just because these things LOOK green and we're told they are doesn't actually make them any better at reducing CO2, especially in the timeframes I'm hearing. Heck, some may meet a target, boost a rating, score a contribution or fund a conference pass... yet actually make things worse, climatically.

We are TOLD on Friday that the world is facing a climatic disaster. By Saturday few in the media have much to say about it; fewer still on Sunday. Tonight this is the best we can do, after a bit of a hoo-haa over a bank. That's what gets the ratings, so that's where the media will go. The Minister will go with the votes, and they go where the economy goes, so until he can bail it's just a matter of getting away for as long as possible with 'we need all this stuff because of the economic demands of the electorate' while saying lots 'will/may/could/ be done'. So after 10 years of 'looking at', we'll need to settle of a load more navel gazing until... er... the next load.

I respect the sincerity of activist groups such as Greenpeace, but it really is also way too easy to sit and snipe from a comfy, well-funded 'anti'-position, and ignore other, equally basic realities. Such as growing populations and increased demands on a finite planet to support ever more aspirational, competitive individuals upon it. Addressing these does not play well with the core support, and hence only selected parts of the narrative, the easy ones that play well in Islington, seem to get highlighted. But I certainly endorse spiking the pathetic official charade I heard: claiming carbon capture commitments whilst obviously having no such intention as evidenced by certain projects already committed to. Again, I repeat, after 10 years to get sorted, much less underway. What have they been doing the last decade?

No, it's not that simple. But if it is serious (and I have to believe it is), then for all the rest of us to take it seriously we need those who claim to be taking a lead to show it's serious. And some imagination. Sorry... to date, no one and nothing that's been trotted out so far seems to have floated many folks' boats very successfully, even pretty PR picture ones like the WWF effort opening the piece. So even the current crop of more incentive-based, proactive, well-directed, cost-effective and positive efforts (such as they are) are not getting through. At all. It's all fluff and bluster and scare and guilt and levy and fine. And no result.

What a shambolic performance. By the whole sorry lot. My poor kids.

We need doers; not talkers. And quick.

ps; Just watched 主播大秀 Breakfast News.

The day after Mr. Brown's climate speech, in which there are but a few lines on air travel, and we get... plastic bags. Again.

What is the actual contribution/impact of this plastic product vs. almost any other?

And I am not even convinced that the ban calls, at least in the current form, are much more than misguided, headlines-friendly knee-jerks.

Is the Irish experience a total success as claimed? Are biodegradables the solution as advised, at least in the blanket manner portrayed?

(you'll need a few minutes)

I am not so sure.

We need less trivial TV, and a lot more like the fish stocks 'waste' topic that is both substantive and worth addressing, especially during yet another 'awareness' (are you? It's called Love Food. Hate Waste. Full colour ads in the Sunday supps) campaign exhorting the consumer not to waste food.

All I can retain is a 'me-not-EUcrat' smiling benignly and saying 'the principle is clear, but the problem is the detail'. The Devil is laughing that it is the latter that now dominates thinking. We can no longer see the deforestation for the bio-crops.

  • 20.
  • At 10:40 AM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • Baz wrote:

Germany has made progress on renewables, but it's not all jam. According to the article, gearboxes which were supposed to last 20 years have been failing in large numbers. There have also been other failures, including rotor blades flying off.

Now whilst the financial cost and percentage of generated power is often quoted, what never is quoted is the whole reason why these things exist in the first place - CO2. If these devices are failing and having to be replaced or repaired frequently, how much extra carbon does that generate and how does it affect the amount they save - in short - are they saving the planet or just another business opportunity?

It also leads to the question, if the UK rushes into more and more renewable before the technologies are mature, are we going to find costs rising on projects just as the Germans have?

Perhaps Newsnight should do a report on the reality of the German experience.

Spiegel Online - The Dangers of Wind Power -

  • 21.
  • At 11:58 AM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

Peter (19),

Right on!

Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed

Some people have parts that are so private they themselves have no knowledge of them.


  • 22.
  • At 01:08 PM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • Tim Grollman wrote:

At last something positive from the government about carbon capture. What could be more sensible than to extract all the carbon from the power stations where it is produced? All UK coal and gas stations should be retrofitted immediately, at public expense. I pay for everything anyway, one way or the other, and this is so obviously the way ahead we can't afford to mess about debating who funds it in the first place. Plus there is a huge world market to be won. Get on with it!

  • 23.
  • At 01:26 PM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • csharp wrote:

yet up to 50% of solar planning applications are turned down only because its not in keeping with existing appearances. Of course not. its a new technology. They didn't have it in the 1890s which seems to be where planners want to keep us.

  • 24.
  • At 01:33 PM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • wrote:

For the most encouraging work on 'carbon capture' I've seen so far check this out:

Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed

Give your very best today. Heaven knows it's little enough.

  • 25.
  • At 03:59 PM on 20 Nov 2007,
  • bob wrote:

As much as I sympathize with the Burmese people, as well as, any poverty stricken people in the developed and developing world, the Newsnight film about Burma was tinged with propaganda and made such a one sided anti-Burma argument. Amongst other things, the emphasis on poverty, suggesting that poverty in Burma is as a result of the Junta and making out that the average peasant in China / India / is so much better off was laughable.

Why can't the 主播大秀 just make unbiased news reports without making it blatantly obvious that it's yet another 主播大秀 propaganda movie - it would give the 主播大秀 so much more credability. But no, the 主播大秀 is just a tool to manipulate us.

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