The obsessive and the dotty
What a wonderful array of commentary on the subject of anti-Americanism!
It is an important topic and anyone interested could do worse than read the four-volume collection of writings on it entitled "Anti-Americanism: History, Causes, Themes," edited by my friend of Griffith University in Australia.
I took the books on a train to New York the other day and quite a crowd gathered to leaf through them! Special thanks to Mr Curley for the poem - with your permission I would like to use that elsewhere - and to Jack Hughes for making a trenchant point about the 主播大秀.
For what it is worth I agree with you about execution in the US getting obsessive coverage from us foreigners while the same issue in China receives little attention. It is one of the pitfalls of reporting open versus closed societies.
But boy does the dotty stuff keep happening here: the latest being governor Sonny Perdue's prayers for rain on the steps of the Atlanta statehouse. Anti-Americans, the softer European variety, look at that kind of behaviour and wonder at America's capacity for self-delusion and religious literalism. Nothing much separated that gathering from a get-together of Stone Age men, let's face it.
Although of course 250 Georgians do not represent the nation; as someone in the blog put it, in one pellucid phrase: "Good gracious, how embarrassing!"
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Gordon Brown is working up his way to send more Brits to their deaths in Iraq, while he and his family, and George Bush and his, stay at home and have tea at Camp David and/or 10 Downing Street. I can't believe after watching Tony Blair booted out of his Prime Minstership that Mr. Brown will come out with such praises. It is not a question of dislike for America or anti-Americanism per se. It is, however, watching how the Bush Administration has brought grief to the country with 3900 US troops killed over a war that should never have been fought. And for what? Needless to talk about the thousands of Iraq's who have also died needlessly. Are there any Bush's in Iraq fighting? I wonder. I also wonder, if the French people are going to let their President lead them like sheep to Iraq, while he stays at home? Clear Ambiguity
For a country that had Pat Robertson as a presidential candidate, anything's possible. So long as America continues to blur state with religion, then we can expect even more of these 'Stone-Age get-togethers'.
It's less embarrassing than paying twice as much as the rest of the developed world for some of the worst health statistics in the developed world
It's less embarrassing than having 40,000 people die in road accidents a year (3 times the UK per capita) more or less without comment.
It's less embarrassing than sending 13 year olds to prison forever.
It's less embarrassing than having the largest prison population in the world.
And way less embarrassing than the USA's national disgrace - Pine Ridge, South Dakota.
Maybe if the average British person actually stepped foot inside a church once in a while, they may understand the mentality of a religious people giving a common prayer to God, on a metter of some importance to their state and general welfare. More power to Governor Perdue.
Parts of Georgia are facing NO water in the coming months if something doesn't happen soon.
If they think praying will help, go for it. I could care less what they do to make themselves feel better.
Honestly #1, if you want to rant about Iraq you should leave comments on an article that talks about Iraq.
People are entitled to their opinions about America, but personally I have never wanted to live anywhere else. As Americans we may be a bit haughty as a whole, but if America is so bad why is it that the waiting list for legal entrance years long?
I am not for the Iraq War but neither are a lot of Americans, so quit judging the country for our stupid president that barely won his last election.
At Slapton Sands in Devon, England, there is an American Sherman tank that stands as a memorial to hundreds of American troops who were needlessly killed in a botched military operation in preperation for the D-Day landings in 1944.
Despite the fact these men had perished to save Britain from Nazi tyranny, the British government were reluctant to erect a memorial to those who died and were uncorporative during its construction.
The fact is of course, that thousands of Americans gave their lives, not just to save America but to save Britain, Europe and the world, in the Second World War.
For this alone, we should be thankful for America. The political map would be very different today otherwise.
And then of course, there are all the great things America has done since the war - assisting in the post-war reconstruction of Europe, advances in space exploration, science and medicine, protecting Europe against the threat of the Soviet union, the peace corps to name but a few.
For these reasons alone we should be grateful to America. I think we should be thankful that the world's only superpower is a democratic and free society like America.
For all the criticisms people may have for America, it is important to remember that this is a country which has done a lot of good for the world.
I'm British and opposed the Iraq war but I'm glad that Britain has such a close relationship with America. I hope it stays that way too.
Frankly, I think lots of foreigners, especially Europeans, use stuff like this as proof that we Americans are stupid and they can't believe that stupid people have so much power. A lot of anti-Americanism can be reduced to that:
religious/right-wing/individualist=stupid Americans
secular/left-wing/consensus-seeking=intelligent Canadians
I agree with Jame, No. 5: "If they think praying will help, go for it. I could care less what they do to make themselves feel better."
Believing in relgious miracles is not peculiar to the United States.
Should these people or their neighbours feel ashamed? Not at all.
What about the many Catholic pilgrims who seek healing in Europe? Countless examples from other religions could be given.
And many heads of government go to church to pray for world peace, happiness, etc.
So let's respect other people's beliefs and rituals - as long as they don't harm others, for instance by crusading against Darwinism, or disguise inconsistent political or economic interests.
I think it's wonderful that the governor is turning to prayer. Our God, the glorious and mighty Jesus Christ, is soverign over all things. This includes rainfall over Georgia. He hears those who speak to him and he awnsers their prayers. Ask an you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be open to you. Those "Christians" who think otherwise are Christians in name only.
主播大秀 journalists are obsessed with this aspect of American life. They were queuing up to cover the opening of a creationist museum in Kentucky earlier this year - a quick online search shows that Matthew Wells, Martin Redfern, James Westhead and, unsurprisingly, Justin himself all reported on it (there may have been even more). One can only conclude that these are the kind of stories which appeal to the prejudices of 主播大秀 reporters; the chance to sneer at Hicksville USA is one of the reasons they go to America, after all. Recent polls in Turkey have shown that 75% of the population (and half of all science teachers) believe in creationism but this doesn鈥檛 preoccupy the 主播大秀 in the same way, and I can guarantee that a 主播大秀 correspondent would never compare Muslim beliefs with those of "Stone Age men". I'm an atheist so it's all a crock as far as I'm concerned, but it's clear to me that the 主播大秀 treats religion in America differently to anywhere else in the world. Likewise, when the race-hustlers are on the march in America over some perceived sleight or other the 主播大秀 makes it headline news, but events elsewhere, such as the actual persecution of religious minorities in Indonesia for example, receive a fraction of the coverage.
(BTW - the comments system here is terrible. You can't beat tax-funded complacency when you want to provide an inefficient service.)
Would you call the Remembrance Sunday prayers at the Cenotaph a 'stone age' event?
People believe in God for many reasons, including logical ones. Albert Einstein believed in God. You don't need to believe in miracles to do so.
But people pray for miracles when they are desperate. Sometimes it is for rain, sometimes it is for their nation's survival. Sometimes it seems those prayers are answered.
What is truly 'stone age' is the intolerance of atheists who ridicule people who pray. Atheists created many of the most intolerant and brutal dictatorships of the last century, including Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and Maoist China. Many prayed for these regimes to fall also - were they 'stone aged' to do so?
WOW. Speaking as a person living in Atlanta, I have to agree with the "How embarassing".
Thanksfully, Georgia is changing . Sonny is definately part of an "old guard" in Georgia. Transplants from the rest of the country continue to flood into Georgia, which have resulted in improving the economy vstly. Still Georgia has the second wrost education system in the US today. Times like this, it shows.
Really now,
Such ignorance. Many of you would be better off reading the Economist for inteligent commentary on America's religious/political situation. America's framework of government is founded upon a belief in God and education. Separate institutions of Church and State were never meant to root religion belief out of politics. It just prevents America from having rediculus tax systems that fund religious bodies like many nations of Europe, and Bishops in our congress (Like Britian's Parlament). Faith in God is faith in that which is Good. Faith is a belief of action. May people everywhere continue to put their trust in God. To beleive in good and then do something about it.
Lets correct the propaganda of post 6
The USA did not save Britain in WW2 - the USSR did.
The first act following the entry of the USA into WW2 was the sending of the British of ships and aircraft to defend the US east coast - the crushing defeat the USN received on the east coast largely removed from US history books
More British ships were lost in the battle for the Mediterranean than the whole of the Pacific.
Europe fought the war, took the casualties while the USA sat on the sidelines waiting for the Japanese to help them figure out what side they should be on.
The French - population 40 million, took more deaths in WW2 than the USA, population around 150 million.
Frankly, I find most Europeans and others completely ignorant about the US and its people, especially those who think they are experts. Their idiotic "observations" are nothing more than crude generalizations, fueled by their own feelings of impotence in an age of US dominance. Nothing could be more clear. This is one of the world's most inventive and politically, socially and culturally diverse countries. Of course there are legitimate criticisms of the US, and also much to admire. Anybody who can't see both is truly not worth talking to. I have no time for the blindly patriotic or the obsessively hyper-critical.
Oh, and no. I'm not remotely embarrassed by people I don't even know praying for rain because they live within the same imaginary lines on the globe. Why would I be?
For what it's worth, I think it's HIGHLY appropriate for the European media to place so much focus on the death penalty in the USA, because what they do in that country is not the normal or routine thing they portray it as - it is in fact, by international standards, wholly exceptional. The comparison with China is convenient for blinkered commentators but entirely bogus - the real point is that the USA is literally the only established Western democracy (out of dozens) to retain capital punishment for ordinary crimes.
Additionally, of course, there is the factor of the USA laughably portraying itself as the world's leading defender of human rights. If the country that's supposedly setting the example is regularly breaching the most fundamental human right of all, what hope is there for progress ever to be made in countries like China and Saudi Arabia? That's why it's an entirely legitimate story to revisit - again and again and again.
PS. Someone ought to gently point out to Jack Hughes that the USSR was dissolved sixteen years ago, and that its principal successor state Russia has observed a moratorium on executions since it joined the Council of Europe a decade ago (it's a strict condition of membership).
While I am not one who would participate in demonstrations such as Governor Perdue's prayer for rain, I can understand it.
I don't see it as dotty and I think the reason that many Brits do is how our two nations developed. The US is more openly expressive of their religious beliefs. We often say a prayer before sporting events, we say grace before dinner, we pray for rain when there is none. I am not a religious person, but I accept it as part of life over here.
The British seem to come from a much more formal look at their religion which since the Henry VIII is born from the King and not the Roman Church. Your services are often much stiffer less ostentatious than ours.
Does that make us dotty, or just different?
Americans who pray for rain are not representative as Americans as a whole. Nor are Native Americans, Ethiopians or people from the Balkans who perform rain dances. Of course, if a 主播大秀 reporter had come across a Native American rain dance, he would report it with a feigned cultural sensitivity and awe. Not so for dumb white religious Southerners. They get the brunt of this European derision (trying not to use the word hypocricy) and British soulessness.
I am delighted to be a member of the nation that inspires such scholarly devotion in British and Australian academics, a nation that apparently occupies the attention of an entire army of 主播大秀 commentators and fellow Americo-philes interested in understanding our customs.
Sometimes, however, I worry that such obsessive attention might lead to neglect of equally worthy British institutions. Perhaps Mr. Webb could help support British culture by taking up such topics as the influence of Stonehenge on modern America or the success of British actors in Hollywood. Or maybe he could help spearhead a movement to repatriate the mortal remains of all British soldiers who gave their lives in the American war of independence. Not all roads lead to Washington but some day, when they lead (say) to Beijing, we will be one happy pond again.
"stone-age"
Thank god for America! You really can't make those comments in reference to any other place in the world irregardless of how the inhabitants conduct themselves.
And as to the ww2 debate, of course the Americans were looking out for their best interests. So was every other country. Britons who are still bitter about this may want to ask themselves why the yanks would have wished to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of their young men purely to assist a country who has historically held them in contempt.
Why didn't he dance? I've heard it works better, we should always appeal to the groviest of deities, the response time is faster. I guess that's because they have nothing else to worry about and not too much overdue work to do, I mean they cannont be praying to the same deity that has terribly forsaken the African continent and expect him to follow The state of Georgia's current climatic affaris more closely, can they?
I don't see the 主播大秀 mocking Orthodox Jews davening at the Wailing Wall. I don't see them casting pilgrims in Mecca as self-deluded nut jobs. In fact, just today, I read a featured article about the heroism of Burmese monks. No mention of Stone Age meetings there.
As a southern American, I am horrified, not by your thinly coated Anti-Americanism, but by your appalling dearth of decent manners.
The cynicism of the British is always a surprise to me. While it may be odd in a country with the separation of Church/State for a governor to gather in prayer for rain, it is not inappropriate when necessity warrants the need for a higher power's intervention. I am sure if it was a group of Navajo Native Americans he would report it in favorable ways. In Georgia's case the lack of rain is quite severe. There is no harm in praying for rain. Who knows it might just happen.
By the way, the Episcopal Church has a prayer for rain in its Book of Common Prayer. So I don't think praying for rain is that unusual. I would guess the Church of England does too. So it could be right under the British writer's nose that this is happening.
For what it's worth, I think it's HIGHLY appropriate for the European media to place so much focus on the death penalty in the USA, because what they do in that country is not the normal or routine thing they portray it as - it is in fact, by international standards, wholly exceptional. The comparison with China is convenient for blinkered commentators but entirely bogus - the real point is that the USA is literally the only established Western democracy (out of dozens) to retain capital punishment for ordinary crimes.
Additionally, of course, there is the factor of the USA laughably portraying itself as the world's leading defender of human rights. If the country that's supposedly setting the example is regularly breaching the most fundamental human right of all, what hope is there for progress ever to be made in countries like China and Saudi Arabia? That's why it's an entirely legitimate story to revisit - again and again and again.
PS. Someone ought to gently remind Jack Hughes that the USSR was dissolved sixteen years ago, and that its principal successor state Russia has observed a moratorium on executions since it joined the Council of Europe a decade ago (it's a strict condition of membership).
I looked up "dotty" in the dictionary. There were no words, just a photograph of the British House of Commons at Prime Minister's Question Time.
When you get such severe conditions in an area that is unaccustomed to it, you should expect that sooner or later, the frailty of the human animal, will resort to religious prayer, to solve their problems.
It has been that way since the dawn of time, and it will likely continue into the foreseeable future.
I'm sure there were many prayers for stopping the rain, in England, not long ago, when the flooding was so severe there.
We are not so different, after all.
Albanaich #14
Wasn't it wonderful how the USSR saved Britain by shipping millions of tons of food and other material, vast stores of weapons, planes, and tens of thousands of soldiers to Britain to defend them and at what huge sacrifice to themselves?
Actually while Britain was being pounded by German rockets and German soldiers were walking all over continental Europe, the USSR was busy helping the Nazis carve up Poland. They never dreamt that the Germans would violate their peace treaty with them and attack them too. Just goes to prove there is no honor among thieves.
And what saved the USSR? Millions of tons of American aid and loans which were never repaid. That and the Russian winter which also defeated Napoleon.
If more Europeans died than Americans in World War II, it was only right. After all, it was their war, their "isms", the consequence of their idiotic punitive Treaty of Versailles which ended their previous bloodbath. And what is their solution for preventing another war, their method of finding a way to live with each other without further slaughter? The EUSSR, an absurd conception so flawed with elementary blunders and endless self contradictions it is hard to see how it will last much longer. Now in mid November here in the US we are approaching Turkey time. When do you think it will be Turkey time for the EU?
absolutely agree with the criticism of this article- I think it unlikely that if the religious act had been undertaken by anyone but an American it would have been labeled 鈥榮elf delusional鈥 鈥榙otty鈥 and 鈥榮tone-age鈥- certainly I have never seen the Prayers given at the opening of the House of Commons referred to in such a way.
Well, it's raining in the Atlanta area; I guess you can blame it on the Bossanova if you want to ( after you wipe the egg off your face).
What I find horrific is the anger and rudeness towards God and those who trust Him. If 'tolerance' is the politically correct behavior, how about sharing a little of this with the Christians?
God doesn't need you to tell Him whether He exists or not; but you do need God to tell you why you exist. Nothing comes from Nothing. The natural state is not from disorder to order, but from order to decay. Pray for all that is good.
Faith, Hope and Love...remember?
As an American whose family left the British Isles in the 1600's I do believe in the power of prayer and I do pray to God each day. I thank him that my family had the wisdom to come to the Colonies when they did in the 1600's. As my Uncle on my mother's side stated be proud that your family has fought in every war this country has had since they land here. Yes, they even married within the Native community. As an American I believe we are blessed and the reason we are blessed we have not forsaken God and the church. There is nothing wrong with praying to God, Allah, or Jehovah try it, you may find it works and he does hear our prayers.
To #3 Andrew Stone and #14 Albanaich (who are indeed the same person)
Pine Ridge, South Dakota is a fine example of what happened to indigenous peoples around the world when you Europeans decided that the world was yours to "discover" (read that as steal), even though the land was already inhabited by others. Will the great powers of Europe ever apologize for this? Not likely. This last part is largely removed from European history books.
And of course more French than Americans died in WWII. I'm sure more French died than Canadians, Australians or any other former colonists. And why shouldn't it be that way? It wasn't our war, but YOUR bloodbath (yet again). Would look pretty rotten if more colonials than Europeans died in your madness, wouldn't it?
I would hope that Sanford Santacroce (comment #7) is not typical of Americans otherwise his comment about the proof of "stupid Americans" would be true. This is an article on a British website about a book written by an Australian author, but he uses it throw a gratuitous insult at Canadians. And yet he will probably wonder why so many Canadians like America, they just can't stand Americans.
I stand by my comment about the good things America has done for the world but I found the last paragraph of Mark's comment extremley offensive. To suggest that it was "only right" that more of our soldiers died than Americans is demeaning to the millions of people who were killed in this horrific conflict. And it was not right for any of these soldiers to be killed.
The Second World War was always heading toward being a global conflict which would have inevitably affected America in the end. The Nazi's would not have stopped at Europe. They would have moved on to America. They wanted world domination. It was precisely based on this that many neo-conservatives defended the decision to invade Iraq - pre-emptive action.
America did save Europe in WWII. So did thousands of other heoric troops from Britain, France and other allied countries. But it is true to say that we probably would not have won this war without assistance from America.
Why can't people acknowledge this fact without making demeaning comments?
I think that having such prayer by the gov'r at the state capitol is a sign of media manipulation of faith and a separate matter from whether there is in fact power in petitionary prayer. One does not live in laboratory experiments and so it is impossible to determine that there is, in fact, power in prayer. I think that is why it is reasonable for people to believe in petitionary prayer, but I do not believe we need to do that publicly and am averse to public officials praying in public with the cameras flashing and what-not... This is not because faith is personal, it is rather because faith is not to be used as a tool for power-grabbing or keeping...
dlw
The tone of the commentary here illustrates one of the most distasteful aspects of European culture:
In America we don't just practice rituals for the sake of tradition and we don't preserve our churches because they have artistic or historic value. We actually believe in the religion that we practice. The European philosophy and attitude says that Jesus is just for paintings and Christianity is for church - but religious faith should never see the light of day and it should never, ever be practiced with sincerity.
Many people find comfort in prayer. The fact that you went out of your way to write derogatory remarks about these people left me feeling very bad inside.
Anyone who thinks Sonny Perdue is ignorant, dotty, or "stone age"...or a sincere Christian...is completely missing the point.
The reason we don't have any water is not merely because of the drought. The reason we don't have water is because of unprecedented, absolutely uncontrolled growth in the region...the population of metro Atlanta doubled in seven years...and a complete failure to build up the infrastructure in order to cope. Politicians have known that the Federal water reservoirs weren't enough for some time. There was a plan to build state reservoirs, but it was opposed by developers who wanted to use that lake-front property to make money. There was another one in 2002, but it never went anywhere because the newly elected governor (guess who) didn't support it. More about that here: and here:
This state has a history of poverty and hard times, and people are very religious. So, what Perdue is doing with his day of prayer is actually a very savvy political move. If he can blame God, I mean pray about it, then he can distract everyone from the fact that it's not God's fault we don't have any water, it's Sonny Perdue's.
Yesterday, I sat in a golf course club house while a group of young men prayed to Allah for good weather for their annual golf tournament. It was a windy day but it did not rain. They completed their tournament and seemed to have had a wonderful day.
Not once during that entire day did I hear anyone make a "nasty" remark about these men praying. In fact I heard some of my avowed christian friends say how much they admired these different religious people for praying in public.
Well that is my comment. Now back to the serious business of making life liveable.
People love to hate us, it is true. They also love to bottle the entire US into one little group, and here is one of the biggest problems with it all. You can't make balnket staments about a group of people this big, it would be like assuming you knew everything about Europe because you went to a pub in Poland. Sure there are thing that happen in the US that are perfectly backward and often stupid, show me a country that can claim otherwise. We are such a backward and uncouth society that has brought the world such horrible things as modern computing, telephonic comunication, and instant coffee. The fact is, when talking to even a staunch anti american on a personal level, they don't hate us, just some of our government's policies and actions. Welcome to the club, there are a lot of thing I could complain about around the world that ordinary citizens had nothing to do with. I would like to point out that the "stone age" comments are hillarious coming from a news outlet that regularly covers sesonal events at Stonehenge without refering to them as such, even though they actually are from the stone age. Let's keep things in perspective here, okay? You want to hate me? Fine, but get to know me and why you should hate me first.
'Dotty'? So, when King George VI led the British people in a day of prayer on Sunday, 26th May 1940, His Majesty was 'dotty'? Are you unaware, or just ignoring Sir Winston Churchill's numerous comments regarding reliance on Almighty God providing strength to defend the U. K.? Or was he just 'dotty' and the defeat of the Nazi Army a curious coincidence? Tell me, was the man who lead the U. K. through the worse war they ever fought 'dotty'?
When President Roosevelt did much the same thing later in the war, he was 'dotty'?
Those of us who pray for the victims and rescuers of flood victims in the U. K. are 'dotty'?
This whole article just shows the power and manipulative strategems of the deophobes in what is laughingly called 'the media'.
Silly Isles.
Why bother with 主播大秀 commentary when I can go to the entertainment pages and find more useful information.
Fortunately, the 主播大秀 does provide great information...elsewhere.
Also fortunate are the great schools in Britain, which produce brilliant people; who then come to America.
Let's just assume that Americans are backward, ignorant, piggish, provincial and just down-right stupid in all ways. Then why are they the ONLY superpower left in the world? AND doesn't that make America's critics even MORE backward, ignorant, piggish,provencial,and even more stupid than the Americans?
ET
"For a country that had Pat Robertson as a presidential candidate, anything's possible. So long as America continues to blur state with religion, then we can expect even more of these 'Stone-Age get-togethers'."
First of all, Pat Robertson, as you may recall, didn't win the grand prize (meaning the election) nor has any modern presidential candidate running on a purely religious platform. Most young Americans like me (I am 25 years old) would promptly find such a candidate a joke-do you have any idea how much that man is lampooned?!!
Furthermore, given the current atmosphere here in America it would be folly for religious conservative leaders to use their position to funnel votes for Republican candidates like last time. Note how the current GOP frontrunners do not have a particular religious bent: since Nixon using religion has been a staple strategy for the red state dominated Bible Belt but thanks to Bush, the leaders know to try that hat trick again now would be dangerous for the long term survival of the party; their creditability is already damaged for many years to come as is.
Second, I am a little confounded by some ignorance I find here-I always saw the British as a wise people that valued logic! As a result of ongoing and massive immigration, the United States logically is a place where very diverse faiths coexist just fine, thanks. It further holds that as a result of mass immigration from Europe that, although a Christian nation, no denomination of Protestant Christianity here is large enough to hold dominion over the others. It is only when you add those religions up do you get a majority number and this diversity actually keeps true radical extremism in check. (Actions like the banning of hijab are actually illegal here, unlike Europe, where controversy abounds over the subject, a subject baffling to most Americans reading about it in the paper.)
Mixing of religion with state? Stone-age get togethers? I admit to being appalled and hurt at being stared at like a monkey in a zoo because I wake up on Sunday, dip my hand in a small pool of water and genuflect before the cross. I am even more horrified that anyone would mistake turning to something higher than oneself in a time of trouble for self -delusion, kicking them when they are down. I do not defend my country at all as a light for the world, far from it, but I do wonder at some of the things I have read here. I have been to Europe. I have seen and heard, and I am a little saddened by what I have seen-no faith in anything or anyone. Churches stand empty, and worse, are treated like museums. Constant bickering over the rights of Muslims to bow and face Mecca during work hours, and the papers selling it like candy. Synagogues-abandoned. I wonder which is worse: a self-deluded American who gets on his knees and believes in the possibility of the impossible or a British man with an eternally fatalistic attitude, going to church but never feeling a leap of faith in it? Reason is wonderful, even necessary, but without a balance of faith, is it really worth it?
Next week is Thanksgiving. I am going to see my mother, sisters, and friends in Boston around the table, and before the meal, we will account for all of the things we have to be thankful for, the things we have lost, and the future. We'll account for my grandmother's passing. We'll pray for those who are hungry and those who are dying in Darfur. We'll pray that at last change will come for my country and all the terrible travesty finally gets washed away. We'll eat, we'll be together, and we will thank God for it all. And it is my turn this year to lead the prayer.
I think you do yourself and the 主播大秀 no service at all with this post Mr Webb. The 主播大秀 is widely thought of as anti American even when it claims to be balanced.
In the interests of balance will you now refer to Muslim, Jew and Hindu prayer as Stone Age?
Thought not.
Justin #34
You find my remark about it only being right that more British soldiers died in World War II than Americans? Why is it wrong? It was the puntitive reparations in the treaty of Versailles that Britain and France imposed on Germany that destroyed all hope that it could ever recover economically. This led to the rise of Hitler, Nazism, and the rearmament of Germany as Britain and France sat by doing nothing to stop it. Britain and France made World War II inevitable by creating the conditions for it, why shouldn't they have paid the highest price? And having paid that price, it appears from Iraq that they still haven't learned their lesson. Not only are they mean and unreasonable,t they are hopelessly stupid as well. Europe is an utterly irrational place.
An entire continent has been in a state of perpetual war with itself for over a thousand years because people who live fifty miles away speak a different language, have a different culture, eat different food, or some believe they are racially superior and have a right to enslave everyone else, or believe that anyone who has more than they do should give it up under some perverted grand notion of social justice and you and they say that an entirely different civilization which rejected all this and has lived with its diverse elements more or less at peace with each other except for one terrible episode 140 years ago is 鈥渄otty鈥 because a governor of a state exercised a harmless meaningless ritual by praying for rain on the steps of a government building during a drought? What planet do you and these people who sit in judgment of Americans come from? What manner of logic makes any of them think Americans should listen to anything else they have to say or take them seriously? I remind you that the murderous war in Northern Ireland over whether that nation should be spiritually subservient to Rome or Westminster, the war that decimated the Balkins, the war going on between the Basques and the Spanish, the racial discrimination and hatred of the Romany Gypsies by much of central and Eastern Europe, the intolerance for the North African Moslems and their descendents brought to places like France to work as cheap labor, and so much more isn鈥檛 about something that happened centuries ago, it is about recent history and about today. And these people say Americans are dotty because a governor publicly prayed for rain in a drought. You not only have a lot to learn about American civilization Mr. Webb, you have a lot to learn about European history and Europe as it actually exists right now and you have to sit down and have a long heart to heart talk with yourself about putting things into perspective. And when you do, you will see that it is Europe which is more than dotty, it is an insane asylum often run by psychopathic homicidal maniacs having vast numbers of loyal followers like Slobodan Milosevic had.
And so, unfolding before your eyes Justin, is the push and pull factor that promotes Anti-Americanism.*
The push being envy from some Europeans and the pull being arrogance from some Americans.
All steming from the general ignorant belief that Americans are institutionally stupid and Europeans think their better.
* = refers to European Anti-Americanism
So it was dotty huh? Only one problem, it worked;
It may have been only 1/4" to an inch in part of Georgia but that is something. How does that compare to Scotlands bicycle sex story? Pray some more Sonny, let's see how good you really are. How about some Native American rain dance rituals. That is pure American culture. Sonny, I'll bet you wish now those Braves fans hadn't given those tomahawk chop moves so many times. Might have angered the rain gods. Time to send up some smoke signals, smoke-um peace pipe. Visit big-chief Thundercloud. Make-um rain flow like water.
The comments from Justin Webb are at best misguided and at worst a disgrace.
I cannot for one moment understand the 主播大秀 allowing one of it's correspondents to express his own bigoted views on Americans and specifically the religiously inclided Americans.
As Mr Webb says himself, one person does not represent a country and Mr Webb represents no-one apart from his own bigoted world-view.
I truly hope that the 主播大秀 remove Mr Webb's blog, he has no right to comment on a country he so obviously hates, I suggest that Mr Webb and Mr Friel that other American hating 主播大秀 correspondent are the first of the 主播大秀 correspondents to be forced to attend an impartiality course.
As a non practising Catholic from the Netherlands, I say this to our American friends, if you wish to pray do it, it is your democratic right to do so, what a shame that Mr Webb accepts your hospitality whilst at the same time ridiculing you.
Finally a message to the 主播大秀, your clear anti-American agenda is becoming a huge turn-off, I pay 120 euros a year to subscribe to 主播大秀1, 主播大秀2, 主播大秀3 and 主播大秀4, however, I am becoming more and more disgruntled with your obvious bias and feel that you have lost your position as the premier news broadcaster, and would instead put you a notch below Fox news or Sky, both of which are flawed, but at least both make no pretence of their political slant.
'Dotty'? 'Embarrassing'? Hard to imagine this commentary being applied by a mainstream reporter about a religious event anywhere else on the globe. In answer to your question from your earlier post, this is possibly what people mean when they talk about anti-Americanism.
"But boy does the dotty stuff keep happening here"
We have 300 million people, with varying religions with varying intensities of belief.This 'stuff' happens with humans everywhere.These anecdotes continue to be pounced upon by people who already believe, or would like to convince others that it's typical in the U.S.
I could pick and choose hundreds of similar events happening in Britain or Europe.They are very easy to find.(E.G. Anyone want some water to cure your cancer? Or how about a giant ancient phallic symbol to aid in conception? Kiss a stone to win the lottery?etc. etc. etc.)
My question is:
How many more articles/blogs like this one do you folks need before you start feeling good enough about yourselves again?
Or is it like vitamins, where you need a steady supply?
"A get-together of Stone Age men". What a disrespectful and crude statement! I look forward to the 主播大秀 making a similar remark re a Moslem religious service. Should it do so, the stones would be real and the remark would be your last. You owe the American people an aplogy.
to the americans on here who say its right that more europeans died than americans in WW2 do you thinks its right that far more americans have died in iraq becuase bush started the war? and by your reasoning us british should pull out now and leave the bloody mess to you
p.s. the british dont hate american people its the constant double standerds from the american goverment (and our own) that we dont like
Mr Webb,
Your comparison between a humble petition to God for rain by the good folk of Atlanta and that of a stone-age gathering are extremely condescending.
Winston Churchill addressed the House at the end of World War II and said:
"I recollect well at the end of the last war, more than a quarter of a century ago, that the House, when it heard the long list of the surrender terms, the armistice terms, which had been imposed upon the Germans, did not feel inclined for debate or business, but desired to offer thanks to Almighty God, to the Great Power which seems to shape and design the fortunes of nations and the destiny of man; and I therefore beg, Sir, with your permission to move: That this House do now attend at the Church of St Margaret, Westminster, to give humble and reverent thanks to Almighty God for our deliverance from the threat of German domination"
Or how about the numerous prayers for Madeline McCann or more recently for those in Bangladesh? Do you consider these simplistic "stone-age" activities worthy of ridicule? Your comments are contemptible.
God forgive us in this land for turning our backs on the Almighty and becoming so arrogant as to suppose we are supreme over everything.
One more point. Although in this instance you are aiming your snide comments at Christianity can I have an assurance from you that you apply the public prayer / Stone Age analogy to all faiths? Would the public prayers said by Muslims in Mecca also receive similar condescension? I think we should know.
@ 39 (and most other reactions): the blog ends stating "of course 250 Georgians do not represent the nation"...
But boy, what an over whelmingly overreaction from our American friends... Touched a taboo, Justin?
God, maybe? (Gott mit uns, AllahuAkbar, In God we trust... Who is right? Who will get the rain?)
But even if God did not exist, maybe It had to be invented... for some politicians with time to kill to try to touch Its mind (and ours)...
"But boy does the dotty stuff keep happening here"
We have 300 million people, with varying religions with varying intensities of belief.This 'stuff' happens with humans everywhere.These anecdotes continue to be pounced upon by people who already believe, or would like to convince others, that it's typical in the U.S.
I could pick and choose hundreds of similar events happening in Britain or Europe.They are very easy to find.(E.G. Anyone want some water to cure your cancer? Or how about a giant ancient phallic symbol to aid conception? Kiss a stone to win the lottery?etc. etc. etc.)
Some of this European-style 'dottiness' is so 'dotty', it makes praying for rain during a drought look like Richard Dawkins wiping his nose.
But my question is:
How many more articles/blogs like this one do some of you folks need before you start feeling good enough about yourselves again?
Or is it like vitamins, where you need a steady supply?
Love them or loathe them, the Americans are great people - yes, some are 'dotty' but I've seen more 'dotties' in the UK than over here, many of which are usually seen asleep in the House of Lords. I'm a Brit who currently lives in the US - and if I had it my way, I'd stay here without a second-thought.
The insults aimed at Justin Webb, the 主播大秀, European people and culture and the misguided belief that Britain and France were somehow responsible for starting the Second World War are offensive, repugnant and compeltley ridiculous.
These derogatory comments prove the terrible influence and attitude that has been generated by the bias nature of some aspects of the American media. It also shows how irresponsible and ignorant many people can be.
In comparison to some of the opinions voiced here, George W Bush appears rational.
Justin Webb has made it quite plain that he loves America. He has said he wants to stay in Washington for 600 years.
To suggest that British and French troops deserved to die in WWII is repulsive. I think it would do you good to go and visit the mass graves in France and meet some of the people who fought so you could degrade them today.
The proof that the 主播大秀 is impartial and balanced to an unmatched degree lies before you. Justin Webb has allowed you to write all sorts of nonsense on his blog because the Corporation believes strongly in balance and allowing a multitude of opinions.
As I've said before, I like Americans and America. And I'm pretty sure that most Americans do not subscribe to the views expressed by some of the abhorrent comments voiced by people on this blog.
Ok smart alec, what's your solution?
Sonny Perdue, far from being a bumpkin, is a lot shrewder than he comes across here. After all, it was his move to schedule a prayer vigil for rain when the forecast called for a 50% chance of the wet stuff. The "good old boy" southerners are a heck of a lot more clever than they are made out to be by Europeans and even their fellow countrymen. After all, the south is the most dynamic region of the US...and the winters are quite nice as well.
It rained the day after the prayer vigil.
Good people, let us calm down.
The USA is a great place with great people. So is the UK. So is mainland Europe and every other place i have ever been on this wonderful planet.
Yet everywhere has a few things that do their very best to screw it up. Politicians, manipulated media and big business. The kids in the class that spoil it for everyone. We are being played against each other. The very aim of this most disrespectful article. And look how it has succeeded.
Instead of arguing the toss over WWII
let us, as feeling human beings, demand
Mr Webb retract his statements and apologize...and accept it graciously if he does or ignore him if he does not. Don't feed the troll.
Anyway, I'm having a BBQ next weekend
and you are all invited. As i live now
in the Netherlands, I would appreciate
it that you pray to your chosen deity that, of course, it does not rain.
Now let us all join hands and grow up.
Love and peace to all.
Justin #60
First of all, some of my posting have not been published by Justin Webb but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and consider that there may have been computer problems on one end or the other even though I've tried posting them several times. For example, the dottiest story I saw last week was about a man discovered by cleaners in a hotel room in Ayr Scotland having "simulated sex" with a bicycle and who was charged with a crime, pled guilty to a lesser crime, and is now to be a registered sex offender for three years. BTW I got the link to this story from the blog owner on another 主播大秀 blog site.
Second, I did not say Britain and France started WWII, I said they created the conditions which made it inevitable (I hate being misquoted or having my statements mischaracterized.) Which of the following facts do you deny are true? Britain and France insisted on and imposed enormous punitive reparations on Germany in the Treaty of Versailles which made its financial recovery from the war virtually impossible. This bankrupted many people whose life savings were wiped out by inflation (why do you think the Germans and French insisted on the growth and stability pact in the Maastrict treaty which they both violated exclusively but neither paid one Euro of the billions in supposed fines they should have?) That they sat by passively while Hitler rose to power. That they failed to impose rigorous enforced intrusive inspections on demand thereby allowing Germany to secretly re-arm in violation of the treaty (just saw a documentary about German rocket science designed to get around the ban on German artillery) and that they appeased Hitler until Germany marched into Poland and it was clear war was no longer avoidable. Meanwhile Britain itself was totally unprepared to fight back allowing its military to remain backwards and badly underequipped further enticing Nazi Germany's aggression because Hitler knew there was nothing Britain could do to stop it (Neville Chamberlain didn't want to antagonize Germany by strengthening the British military.) Britain did not win World War II, it lost. America came to its rescue or it would surely be a satellite of Germany to this very day. (France's Maginot line with its fixed gun emplacements was a typical European conceived joke, the Germans simply sidestepped it and marched around it through Holland and Belgium in a "blitzkreig" (lightning war) taking over France in a matter of weeks. Which of these facts do you dispute?
I'm not interested in defending idiocy in either the USA or the UK. There are too many similarities in negative aspects: obesity, environmental degradation, educational degeneration, rotten health coverage and war-crime ridden imperialistic Iraq War horrors are shared by both countries. I do think it's too easy to ridicule the obvious "Ugly American" types and sordid politicians from here. I'd be more impressed with your blog Justin if you made more analyses of the evils shared by the USA & UK, and why. I'd be much more interested if you were detailing what steps courageous and intelligent people on both sides of the Pond are taking to fight against those shared evils. I'm getting bored with your blog, Justin Webb; disappointing too 'cause my Canadian maternal-grandfather's last name was Webb & so I might have been a bit predisposed toward your efforts. However, your blog is facile and unenlightening. Both thumbs down. Time for someone more creative and intelligent to take over your blog space. A woman perhaps!!!!
Because Britain is a very conservative secular society and unkeen to express emotion publicly, I'm araid it does seem unusual to us that a politician would organise a public prayer to end a crisis.
It's not that there is anything wrong with praying in public, it's just that to a lot of British people it does seem surreal to pray for rain when the governor could be taking action to help people.
Remember, Justin Webb is primarily addressing a British audience. As such, he obviously needs to inject the feeling of how things will be viewed by people over here.
Saying "dotty" is not outright bias. It's merely an observation. If he did not inject some emotion, what would be the point of the blog?
Note that the great beacon of broadcasting that is Fox News described the governor's decision to pray as "crazy" and called it "politically expedient". Furthermore, they suggested it breaches the seperation of church and state. But that is for Americans to decide.
Most of United States citizenry would understand praying for rain. In the contest of ideas, praying for rain makes emminently better sense than doing nothing. One cannot help wondering if some cultural boundaries haven't been crossed, however. I image that if some descendants of the aboriginal inhabitants had performed a rain-dance, the chattering classes would have approved. So, perhaps, Perdue is guilty of cultural insensitvity? Oh, God, the embarrassment!
#4 Patrick - after experiencing trench warfare in 1914 - 1918 when the chaplains in the army encouraged men to go and die for their King and country and many many did ( 60000 yes sixty thousand casualties in one day ) the Englishman had little stomach to go to church to hear the same rhetoric and mumbo jumbo - and we are a lot better off for it.
You want dotty, here's dotty;
"French trains 'hit by sabotage'"
"France's high-speed TGV rail network has been damaged by a "concerted campaign of sabotage", the SNCF state-owned rail operator has said.
It said acts of sabotage overnight, including fires, caused huge delays to TGV services already hit by a long transport union strike over reforms."
"The SNCF blamed militants for the attacks, saying they wanted to harm ongoing talks to end the strike."
This is nothing less than terrorism designed to further cripple France's economy. Were it shown to be the result of agents of a foreign government, it would verge on an act of war. In this case, it was planned and carried out by people who knew the system well and where it was most vulnerable, people on the inside. France's own people are destroying their nation for their narrow self interests. If they keep at it, eventually they won't have jobs to go back to, maybe none of them will. Now that's dotty.
how obssessive, how dotty, how nutty, how dum, to believe that God does not exist.
Perhaps a well educated man gets a feeling of superiority among lesser educated and even simpler or dum people.
But God does expect you to use your brains; and you obviously do not believe in democracy either: over 2 billion christians do.
Spirit over soul over body, or spirit over mind over matter; it is simple, really.
The sense of right and wrong was not a development out of relative values...rather the later is the deterioration of the first, like rusty steel...
I'm glad that comments such as that of Justin Flook (number 6) are still being made, even with the modern acceptance of America-bashing when the same such intolerance leveled at any other nation would be challenged by the PC brigade. As an American, it is a relief to hear that there are still those who are wise enough to see Americans for who we are, and not merely reject us all due to the mistakes of our current President.
In response to JR Lewis (number 11), Einstein was certainly not a 'believer'. Biographers tend to refer to Einstein's view of deities as "Einsteinian" because when he refers to "God", he is talking about the laws that govern the universe and most certainly not anything of the Abrahamic sort.
To use Einstein as an example of the "logical reasonings" for faith here is a tenuous one at best. With regards to the topic, that of prayer, Einstein says that "a... scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer" and that the doctrine of a personal God performing miracles takes "refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot". Far from providing a veneer of scientific respectability to the topic of religion, Einstein himself refutes the very claims that JR Lewis attempts to make. To him, the very idea of a personal god was "naive", he calls himself an "agnostic", a "deeply religious nonbeliever".
Whew, so much accusation and defensive posturing from both sides of the Atlantic. Someone invokes or challenges holy ground, everyone runs for their verbal bullets and bullet proof vest. I have to wonder at a moment like this what God might be thinking about this contest. I would guess dismay and laughter at our ongoing human folly at trying prove with absolute certainty who is right, because someone else has got it wrong.
When I suspend judgment and consider that God might have more time on his hands than any of us mortal worker bees, I have to think God might utter, "when are these people on Earth ever going to get it, that living here is not about my rights and opinion vs yours, my aggrievedness is more than yours, my nation vs your nation, my position is right; you got it wrong."
You'd think we'd have a better sense to address how to act in concert with one another, finding a way to live with one another beyond our prejudicial and parochial territorial imperatives. I think we owe our childrens, children that, and much more.
These positional conversations make for good emotional, media fodder, and I admit, the projected timbre here hurts my ears. If God is not listening in, so be it. But, maybe what God sees and hears among the tribes is breaking his eardrums too.