McCain's royal ancestry - 'baloney'?
You may think the big news is the Obama passport breach or the preacher problem, but is being explored while he is touring foreign climes - and not necessarily to his advantage.
The passport furore may or may not turn out to be suspicious: but didn't Bill Clinton suffer a similar breach that turned out to be political? is where the story was first broken.
And the Washington Times has another - a suggestion that the McCain campaign might face its own Ralph Nader.
Just as the Democrats seem to be organising their trainwreck with impeccable skill and judgement, the Republicans decide to join in!
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With regards to John McCain's ancestry - he certainly doesn't need any links to famous historical figures (warriors or otherwise) as his life and the lives of his father & grandfather are impressive enough!
Its always amazes me that Americans claim this or that 鈥淎ncestry鈥 when I moved to the USA I thought that I would join the 鈥淚talian 鈥揂merican鈥 club, I was rejected due to the fact that I was not American or Italian, the fact that my father was born in Sicily, and I had an US passport was unimportant, I had an English accent. I have since voted with my feet.
The "baloney" part of the McCain ancestry is baloney itself. Ancestry is simply a matter of math. The further back in time you go, the greater the odds that anyone is related to any particular known figure. Not only is it credible that McCain is descended from Charlemagne, but you and I probably are, too. It's no big deal.
True, there may be 200 million people directly related to Robert the Bruce, so why can't McCain be one of them? Does someone named Robert Bruce the 64th have a better claim to Robert the Bruce than someone named Roberta Schmaltz? Historians are a dime a dozen, it seems. Don't you love experts whom can opine without looking at a shred of research?
I have loads of notable ancestors, but I haven't amounted to much.
xx
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Why on Earth anyone would want to claim a connection with Robert de Brus (as he would have called himself) is beyond me. An opportunist and turncoat with a violent temper, he stabbed to death a rival to the Scottish throne while the latter clung to the altar. Even by medieval standards, pretty raw work!
The breach by contractors at the State Department not once but three times should be investigated.
John McCain, "royal ancestry" doesn't hold any water...
Since moving to Europe many years ago, I've heard many, many snide comments about Americans supposed obsession with their European roots. So much so that I almost didn't bother to contact relatives when visiting Ireland. Fortunately I did, and they welcomed me with open arms.
Yet these same cynical Europeans are very biased when it comes to American celebrities with ancestral claims (or names). Madonna is extra popular in Italy, Madeline Albright's bio was a bestseller here in the Czech Republic, and David Hasselhoff is huge in Germany, etc.
I agree with most of the people who have posted here. We as Americans certainly do obsess a little with our European ancestry (myself included), really in an effort to understand ourselves: why do I have a round, flat nose? Why do I have olive skin? Why the almond-shaped eyes? And I love that there is such diversity here because our definitions of beauty are far less rigid than they are in other countries. (sorry, I digress) . . .
I remember I was in school and I mentioned some of the classic American heroes who originated my family tree, and a few kids in my class told me they had the same roots. All of us could make that argument. African-Americans could argue that their ancestors are kings; one could argue that his ancestors manned the Mayflower. Why should I care about some inbred royalty from whom McCain allegedly stems? He's here now.
You must not have much to think about if you are even suggesting that McCain's ancestry has any bearing on anything. What is it in the British psyche that places so much weight on one's ancestry, lineage, etc. If anything, it might suggest inbreeding, mutated genes, and other possible genetic problems. Get a life.
This story has gotten and will get little to no coverage in America. No one cares.
This is purely a British obsession. Americans are just as bad with celebrity worship, but at least celebrities are not on the public dime (or pence).
HAS THAT CANNY WEE SCOT, JOHN MCCAIN, GOT LINKS WITH "THE SCOTSMAN" NEWSPAPER? IF SO, IT SEEMS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE PRACTISING "DIRTY TRICKS" IN THE BACKGROUND RE: THEIR FEARED OPPONENT, BARACK OBAMA. OR, IS IT ALL TO DO WITH THAT RECENT VISIT TO GORDON BROWN? THE PLOT THICKENS!
I agree with Scott B. There is a mathematical theory of the "most recent common ancestor". Not only are most people in the West related to British royalty of several hundred years ago, but we are also related to the unknown farmer who toiled outside the castle at the same time...
The next story to appear will be Barak Obama's royal ancestry. These stories appeared regarding every president and presidential candidate. Those whose families have kept records can document a pedigree we all share. We are all related to one another if you go back far enough. The real story here is more evidence of how race and class are cultural constructions, not genetic limitations.
Though his claim may be far fetched, for these historians and genealogists to give vapid opinions about about a family tree that they have not even thoroughly researched is irresponsible at best. Dr. Stevenson's statement that "claims of Scottish medieval ancestry are virtually impossible to prove", is pure bunk. (Where did you find this piece of work?). Medieval records of births, marriages and deaths of nobility were by and large well kept, any genealogist worth his salt knows that. Earle may not be a Scottish name, but most of the nobility were of Norman descent, including Bruce. As for the derogatory and equally irresponsible blather about Robert the Bruce and his antics, maybe they should take a closer look at their English kings and the horrors they were responsible for. Typical Guardian journalism; take and opinion and find "experts" to support it...
Why is it that it's ok, and even desirable, for John McCain to claim royal ancestry? Four years ago John Kerry was attacked and ridiculed for looking too aristocratic;European; French even. I'm confused just when I thought I had Americans figured out.
Maybe he could buy one of those fake family "crests" to hang on his wall.
It doesn't matter if John McCain had royal roots. The portrayal of him will be modeled after modern American royalty, i.e., the celebrities. His nicname is already "J-Mac."
"A spokesman for McCain said last night: "The ancestry claim is based upon a genealogical study the McCain family had in their possession, which traced the McCain family roots back to Robert the Bruce.""
And, like so many of these genealogical studies that "prove" a link to a famous historical figure, there is probably a little 150 year gap somewhere that they "just need to bridge".
Still, the description of Robert the Bruce that was given in the linked article would seem also to be appropriate to many a present-day politician, especially here in the US, so maybe there's something in it ;)
So what?That makes him an idiot with a pedigree.
Such gutsy readers you have, Mr Webb! Don Sumpter #4 and the historians who have done not 鈥榓 shred of research'! J. C. #15 (with initials like that I'm guessing you'll be incommunicado till Sunday, right?) and the 'bunk' spouted by so-called 'experts'!
And in the blue corner 鈥 Bruce Durie, a Scottish expert on Scottish genealogy at a Scottish university; Katie Stevenson, an expert historian at one of Scotland & the UK's top universities (St Andrews), who has a PhD from the greatest university in the cosmos (Edinburgh, my alma mater, naturally), has written a book on mediaeval Scots chivalry, and is a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society.
For the time being, I'll be taking their word for it.
Michael Fenton #11 - the British obsession with lineage? In truth, most ordinary people here (i.e. non-aristos) don鈥檛 know their lineage. It seems that Americans are more concerned with where their 鈥榩eople鈥 came from. Also, McCain was the one concerned enough to make the claim in the first place. Granted, people in this country are getting a little soppier about 鈥榳ho they really are鈥, but the whole ersatz identity thing (Irish America, I鈥檓 looking at you) is still much bigger in the US.
Sean #9, who was welcomed with open arms. Were you giving them money perchance? An utterly snide thing to say, I know, but the truth is that Europe is ultra-cynical in this matter 鈥 often we are happy for Americans to identify themselves with our countries, as long as they pay us for the privilege. It is a huge part of the tourist trade.
Go to Scotland and find out what clan you belong to 鈥 and then buy the tartan! Support your brother Irishmen in their struggle independence and鈥 well, perhaps it would be impolitic to go on. There seem to be innumerable societies and trusts, here in England too, giving Americans the chance to get some Old World prestige. They just have to pay for the privilege.
An American friend of mine, who thinks herself Scottish, thought it lovely that the receptionist at a Scottish hotel welcomed her with the scripted 鈥榃elcome home!鈥 they give to all Americans tracing their lineage. Shame on my friend for being so gullible; shame on the Scots for being so cynically disingenuous.
So what do you know, we鈥檙e both as bad as each other. Some Americans fondly imagine they still belong to a country their ancestors didn鈥檛 want to live in, and some Europeans cynically commodify their own culture so they can sell it to flush Americans for a quick buck. Or euro, rather.
That makes it one all in the game of transatlantic antagonism we always seem to be playing on this blog鈥.
I only know that mccain invented oven chips and that just about sums that up, But America was british at one time and a majority of americans have ancestry to the UK including my own family who migrated there 500 years past, The obsession of Americans with their UK ancestry is that deep down they would like to be back under British rule and to be in the Commonwealth
David @ Edinburgh
#20 David Edinburg: I don't necessarily think that the last part of your statement is true, but regardless, I think it rediculous for anyone in public life, either in this country or another, to flawnt, and/or brag about their ancestery-it seems a little immature personally. I mean if they brought it up a time or two in a historical setting because they thought it was interesting, and it fit into the conversation they were having, then fine. But anything more than that is just crazy.
"...he was a self-serving, vainglorious opportunist who was determined to be king at any cost,"
Maybe they ARE related.
I am one of those Americans who had his DNA done. It was posted on Ancestry Family Tree web page. What got me laughing about it was a lady in Spain who claims to be of the Royal Blood line of Spain could not understand why she matched 25 of my 37 markers. She could not be related to a Robinson in the middle of America. DNA does not lie and five other Robinson's have had their DNA done besides me and we all match.... Of course being a RUDE Typical American I sent her an email asking if her mother was in Germany during the 1950's since my father was stationed there. I learned from the English Army while stationed in Germany that I do not speak English that I speak American. I am an American who is Damn Proud of It and my family has been in the Colonies since the 1600's. As for lineage, I come from a long line of Farmers, Ranchers and Military People who came out of the borderlands of England.
I find it funny how the Americans are more than happy to bash Europe and the UK in particular but they're more than confident to call themselves Irish, Scottish etc which it comes to their roots.
The question of ancestry and ethnicity has always been a picky argument between Europeans and North Americans.
As an Irishman in Japan, many of my American friends will point to a direct family connection with Japan by the fact that perhaps their mothers or grandfathers came from this country. In that respect, I can begin to appreciate and understand why they might choose to define themselves as Japanese because their parents and grandparents still retain a lot of the history, language and culture from the original homeland. Something tangible for them to connect to. In that respect, one can understand why they choose to see themselves this way.
However, for Europeans, it is absolutely galling for many of us to have to endure listening to people from across North America telling us how they are Italian, German, Ukrainian, Irish etc. It's galling because while these people may be descended from all corners of Europe, the fact is that the grand majority were born and schooled in the new continent. Their parents and grandparents too. When you have been born in America, gone to school there and socialised there that ought to make you an American. I reject the idea that just because you are descended from a country, that makes you "English" or "French" or whatever else.
The sheer amount of people who have told me they were Irish yet could not tell me anything at all about the country is just bewildering.
I think when we talk about this issue, we need to be honest about it. We also need to keep a bit of perspective. The Europeans need to lighten up a little bit on this but, by the same token, North Americans need to appreciate that just because you are third/fourth generation Scottish, that does not make you Scottish. There is a difference between claiming to be a descendant from a European line and actively claiming to be of that nationality.
Nationality, for me, is more civic than ethnic though I am sure many others may disagree.
'He who brags about his family tree is generally the sap of it' though in McCain's case, he was probably just trying to be a gracious guest and relate to the Brits; it's a great shame that this graciousness was not returned in kind by some of you. As evidenced in these recent postings, American-bashing continues to be a favorite past-time and yet you admire (in secret of course) and take advantage of America's technological and artistic achievements while not hesitating to travel there to make the most of the weak dollar...
I thought he was related to Oven Chips.
Americans are laughed at for being interested or "obsessed" with their heritage. The last time I checked, we didn't have hereditary titles bestowed on to our citizens in the United States. I do know one country that does do that though....who obsesses over their heritage?
I'm American and I read many different newspapers (two major) each day. I've never even heard of this. Big deal.
Descent is an accident of birth; ascent is up to each individual. Americans generally buy into the latter belief but some are thrilled to find some "hero" in their families' past. Of course their forefathers --if pillagers and rapists and traiters-- are seldom known or recorded and never acknowledged as their own. What family doesn't have its "black sheep"? Sometimes the "black sheep" is the "hero". Funny how that happens so often, wouldn't you say, ol'chap?
All the Americans claim to have royal ancestors and no one cares. What advantage does McCain have.
How could McCain's lineage controversial or otherwise have an influence on his campaign as a true-blue American scouting for All-American votes!
as an American, living here in America i have to say that i am not surprised if he is claiming royal genes. each election year at least one of the candidates claims the same.
maybe they do, maybe they don't. i could not care less. i think that they believe that by making these claims it gives them some sort of legitimacy - divine right and all that - which it does not.
according to the rules, i myself contain all th legal qualifications to be president (just the constitutional laws not the unwritten ones about being wealthy...christian...etc...)
and as far as i know, save one earl (so its rumored amongst the family) i have no royal/aristocratic dna whatsoever...
hmmm...little ol' me...president of the united states...
The fact is that everyone on this blue planet is related depending on how far back you go. This is no big deal at all. Just because some 'historical expert' says things like this nowadays doesn't mean that we should a)lose our minds in admiration and b)automatically assume that the individual's genealogical links make the individual involved more or less suited for a job. Jeez Louise, if every one of us went that far back it would just be darn right disturbing how close all of us really are.
A big fat "who the heck cares" comes to mind...I read an article a few years ago that said 60% of Americans can claim an ancestral connection to royalty somewhere in the world. However, unless one's hind end is perched on a throne, such ties are meaningless.
@David in Edinburg.
You're kidding about wanting to be part of the commonwealth, right? We had this great revolution to be free of tyranny. No taxation without representation-remember that one? While we may now be slaves to corporations and big oil, the only reason we're connected is because England has underwritten our entire economy.
Everyone longs for culture here and people look back on what they came from because consumerism has all but destroyed tradition.
what amazes me is how so many people give a damn about royal heritage in a country based on an anti monarchy , republic.
by rights the royal link would make him an invalid cantidate.
come july 4 i will remind my fellow americans that this is a republic. or do you miss having a royal family?
In answer to,first,#16-Padraig,don,t feel bad friend-i was born here and truly don't understand many things about my fellow americans. Especially their claims of ancestry. To #20-David,There are many of us who would agree with ALL your statements!
Next thing you know some schmuck is going to say that Senator Obama is decended from the Prophet Muhamed.
What bearing does a supposed ansestor who's been dead for centuries have to do with a presidential election in the 21st century? Nothing!
Americans just don't care about that nonsense.
It's been proven through mitochdrial DNA that every one on earth is descended from one female ancestor (Eve), so we're all related!
Does this make any difference?
This is too funny! Posts number 3 and number 5 pretty much sum it up for me. By way of digression, along the British/American line, it is believed by some ethnologists that the word "Yankee" was as close as the Southern New England Native Americans in the early 1600's could come to pronouncing the word "English" in reference to the Puritans. We are all brothers and sisters depending on how far back you want to take it.