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PhD/ Research bods' thread July 2008
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Monday, 7th July 2008
Anyone in the throes of a research project/ dissertation/ thesis welcome!
I'm just re-starting my PhD after 18 months out (sick leave 13 months, 5 months' fulltime teaching) and can't remember my topic!
12 months and two weeks to go...
I know from the past that I'm not the only researcher working more or less in isolation, and that it's good to have a place to ask questions, howl about the frustrations, express bewilderment at the lack of resources and cheer for the inspiring researchers we meet!
laura -
Message 2
Posted by lauriej (U2867197) on Monday, 7th July 2008
Good luck Laura in getting back into it!
I'm post-PhD these days but happy to offer advice, useful or otherwise. I've recently left my post-phd job to return to academia for a 6 month stint, mostly on a JISC-funded project. Any hints/tips on how to deal with JISC or the obscurity of the e-Framework much appreciated! -
Message 3
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Monday, 7th July 2008
Hi Laura - glad to see you emerge from under the clutter.
EdD (professional doctorate in education)here rather than PhD - and not yet reached the isolated stage as I'm only one academic year in and the first year and a bit is taught modules on professionalism, research methods and various other theoretical underpinnings to education research (each assessed by a 5,000 word piece) before moving on to a rather larger piece of research and then a still larger piece. My current general areas of interest are the transition into university and what distinguishes HE from other types of education.
The professional doctorate has the advantage over a traditional PhD (I know some current PhDs which are structured in the same way as EdDs) of giving you a cohort to belong to - and allowing a certain amount of scope to change direction along the way (I started a PhD on a legal topic some years ago and realised after a year that, in addition to the impossibility of finding the time to do it, I was going to get terminally bored with it before it ever got finished). As it is linked in with what I am doing for my living, it does make it a bit easier to find the time for it.
Interested to hear what anyone else is doing.
Can't help with fathoming the obscurities of JISC, I'm afraid.
Fee -
Message 4
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Monday, 7th July 2008
Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:04 GMT, in reply to lauriej in message 2
Any hints/tips on how to deal with JISC or the obscurity of the e-Framework much appreciated!Â
Hmmm, just been wrestling with the mysteries of the J-eS system -- I wonder whether JISC uses obscure ways of submitting research grant proposals as a way of doing the first cull?
I have half a book to write by NOvember, plus 4 book reviews, and a 7,000 word book chapter by the end of July. 1,000 a day for me from now on.
Now if it were a thousand words in Mustardland ... -
Message 5
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Monday, 7th July 2008
Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:15 GMT, in reply to Redbookish
redbookish, my first six month back working have been an ideal preparation for returning to high-speed and productive research.
Since Jan 7th, I have:
- written and delivered 46 hours of M.Sc level teaching for the first time
- researched and written and delivered 20 hours of evening-class on new topic
- researched and written 9 of a 10-part online course, each part being 8,000 words at M.Sc. level and not the same subject matter as the M.Sc. course taught earlier!
I've had 2 or more deadlines every week since January - Online 0 goes off today and then it's only Online 10 to do and I'm a free woman!
But by 'eck, after 13 months enforced brain-idleness and disability and misery, and given that it's all been done in 20-minute stints because I still can't type for longer and then a full 45-minute break doing something manual that uses my muscles differently ie sewing or gardening... total possible 3 hours a day otherwise my arms start swelling again and I'm off for 2-3 days once more!
After this last six months, I can't help feeling that I've learnt quite a bit about prioritising and self-discipline and application and so on!
Oh, and also I don't HAVE a thesis to go back to... it was lost in the Great Hard Drive Disaster last August, all except Chapter Two which is now irrelevant anyway. So I've got eight boxes, a foot deep and two foot by one foot, filled with unsorted papers from the last six years and no idea what's in there...
There'll be a LOT of filing this week...!
Fee and laurieJ and redbookish and me... wow, that's a great admixture already!
Imagine a ML conference session...
laura -
Message 6
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Tuesday, 15th July 2008
bookmarking this thread as I'm at work and only popped into ML to copy a PhD-related link, honest... will read and contribute when time permits!
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Message 7
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Tuesday, 15th July 2008
Post-PhD here.
My problem is getting my publications together. I have outlines of four or five that I devised with my supervisor. Only one of these has any sort of body to it. My supervisor is nagging me to publish.
My problem is my crashing lack of confidence. I truly do not think it is good enough to publish. I ahve had so many job rejections (pre and post interview) that publication rejections might have me slitting my wrists.
Supervisor says this is rot, I wouldn't have passed the PhD with only typo corrections otherwise. But I can't believe him. I can only believe my Inner Critic. I think I only passed because nobody fails these days. Supervisor has said that if I prepare a very rough draft he can work it into something ready to send off. Bless him.
So I have made time tonight to go back to that first publication and I have worked on it a little. Now I'm procrastinating here...
But what I really really want, and I am begging someone to do, is to give me the proverbial poke with a cattle prod / kick up the behind to actually get the first publication finished. Yell at me, please.
Thanks. Heart racing now, even at posting this.
Cat x -
Message 8
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Tuesday, 15th July 2008
Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:29 GMT, in reply to catwomyn in message 7
Would it help to email it to someone - say, ooh I dunno, someone with an archaeology training who you know and I hope trust to be honest yet friendly?
Can't think who you could try...
laura -
Message 9
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Tuesday, 15th July 2008
Do it, Cat! Your supervisor knows your stuff and if he says it's good enough, it's good enough. Esp since he's willing to work it up from a rough draft.
Brandishing cattle-prod in your direction.
Why are you still sitting there? Do it! -
Message 10
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:44 GMT, in reply to catwomyn in message 7
My problem is my crashing lack of confidence. I truly do not think it is good enough to publish.Â
OK Cat, tough love coming up
When I examine PhDs, I have to anser a few questions (they vary depending on which University, but largely are the same)
Is it an original contribution of knowledge?
Does it show knowledge of the field?
Is it publishable?
These are the criteria fr a PhD. It is the highest qualification you can earn (I exclude Hon DLitts etc) in Britain. To assume that yours is not up to these standards is, frankly, an insult to your examiners, your supervisor, and your university's standards. It's also a lack of trust in your supervisor, and I'm sure you don't really feel that way?
I have failed PhDs as an examiner. I do know that you don't get them for nothing!!!
You know that too, and your "It's not good enough" is an excuse for something else. It's an easy get out from doing the hard work of putting your ideas out there on the line. We all do it, but you probably need to work out why /you're? doing it. I've seen too many academics self-sabotage in these sorts of ways over the year, and my personal intimate working life consists of spending quite a bit of time pulling MYSELF back from that brink of self-sabotage.
There's a point at which you just have to get over it, grit your teeth and grind through it. I was given some excellent advice a couple of years after my PhD, from a colleague, when I was polishing & polishing (that's what I said I was doing) AKA shilly-shallying (What it really was) over a couple of articles. He told me that I should get these pieces to a state that I thought was OK, and then send them off. If they were accepted, there'd have been peer review obviously, and it would be likely that the EDitor would be asking for changes and rewrites /anyway/.
He was right -- I sent them off & the next year had 3 articles published, one of which 12 years later is still cited & used by students (if citation indexes are anything to go by).
I think that your situation is probably exacerbate at the moment by not working in academia. I worked full-time as a tutor the whole way through my PhD, so -- apart from more than normal post-PhD exhaustion -- I was still in the academy, although getting the next job was touch & go for a couple of years.
Is there any way you can set yourself some deadlines by offering a paper at a conference? It's probably a bit late for this summer's conference season, but there may be colloquia, study days, etc coming up (sometimes on a SAturday which is great if you're doing the 9-to-5). And even if you;re not giving a paper, going to conferences is a great way to keep up in your field, and just generally gee yourself up & remind yourself of why you're in the game in the first place. I'm off to one tis weekend for those reasons -- but I am notorious for going to conferences rather than going on holidays ... I basically don't do holidays if there's a nice conference. Conferences are also fun! I'm lucky to have really nice colleagues, nationally & internationally, and I'm already getting excited about dashing off on Friday.
THe other bit of advice I got, about two years into my PhD,and at tat insufferable "My PhD will change the face of X Studies" phase we all go through, is that No, your PhD /won't/ change the world; but it will change /your/ life/. So you have to stop taking it and yourself too seriously.
I do the work seriously, but I don't take myself in the work too seriously, and this means that it does lift a burden of responsibility from me, and liberates me in ways. Doesn't make the hard grind of writing any easier (I'm here when I should be writing quite a fun chapter!) but it does stop you thinking that *every* word is freighted with deathly significance.
I remember some younger friends half way through their PhD (I'd supervised the wife's Masters) asking my advice about something, prefaced with "You don't assume that what you do is a cure for cancer, so can you advise on ..." I took that as a compliment -- that to them, I had things in proportion. I wish it wre like that inside my head! But it's what I strive for.
I did my UG degree an my PhD in a cohort which included some really brilliant minds -- I was in awe of them. But to be irritatingly frank, I have had a "better" career than most of them -- I have published more, got about more, been asked to do more, and I have the satisfaction of having my opinion & advice sought out professionally. It's nice, but it's not because I'm brilliant. I'm very good, but not brilliant.
But I am stubborn, I persevere, and I think -- because I'm NOT one of the brilliant ones -- I've always felt I have something to prove. THat can be a powerful motivation, if you can harness your "crashing lack of confidence into stubborn determination to "show them." THat might sound psychologically damaged to some people (!) but it has worked for me, and the benefits I get from that grind, and the attempt to turn around my lack of confidence (most people seem to have this -- maybe it's normal?) are fun and very satisfying.
I also give lengthy advice to anyone who wants to listen. -
Message 11
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Cat, gerra grip. Posh.
x x x -
Message 12
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:17 GMT, in reply to posh scouse in message 11
I've got an article to write too - it was rejected over a year ago on grounds of over 200 changes required in the English language and punctuation... yes, quite. This from an editor whose first language wasn't English and who thinks that a paragraph should have commas throughout instead of semi-colons or full stops.
Aaaanyhoo, I have to re-write it to satisfy him, the other authors and myself and I suggest a kind of Journal Writing Club within this thread. Anyone with a budding article, one where the work is done but the data needs to be tidied up and presented appropriately, could start putting it together over the summer.
Anyone interested? We've all got tons of other stuff to do, and it's really easy to put off the thing that may bring scoffing scornful criticism on our personal reputations in the field (actually, it will either be a good article or be ignored; it's highly unlikely to cause anyone to descend vulture-like upon us!).
How about aiming for a fair draft, complete with illustrations where appropriate, completed by October 15th? That's three months clear, which ought to be long enough for anyone to collate extant data into the correct format.
We can all encourage and nag each other, as well as benefiting from advice like redbookish's - which I think is very very good.
One of the things I've really learnt from the last six months frantically working to multiple deadlines on unrelated things every bluddy week is that sometimes "adequate" is actually adequate. I don't have to get everything perfect and follow every single avenue. Sometimes it's acceptable to say "Clearly this raises questions as to how X influences Y and whether the establishment of Y will be a solution to this problem" without actually ferreting out every last detail of it to announce whether or not Z is the solution or X is the problem, etc.
It's a weird concept, that adequate can be adequate...
laura -
Message 13
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:30 GMT, in reply to Laura in Lothian (Battling Unsorted Stuff & Junk...) in message 12
Most of my deadlines are much shorter than that, laura, but good luck!
But generally a word of advice I was given and always pass on to my doctoral students -- the main thing is to get the PhD finished. Conference papers etc along the way are nice, but won't get you a job the way a PhD will. Generally, you need both, but a PhD without publications will trump publications without a PhD in most disciplines.
Our brains are cunning things, and writing articles is a PERFECT procrastination excuse for not getting on with the PhD, IME (both od my own progress and all my doctoral students!) -
Message 14
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:49 GMT, in reply to Redbookish in message 13
That's why I suggested 3 months, redbookish - because we all also have theses to work on!
In my case I have just over 12 months to re-research and write it - I lost the 60,000+ words I'd written in the Great Hard Drive Disaster last year but in any case mine is a review of the current situation in a fast-changing discipline and is now very badly out of date. It obviously has to have a cut-off date, and the data would have been 1.5 years old, but that data would be 4.5 years old by next July's hand-in so must be re-done.
Sigh.
Along with a major court-case, helping organise an international conference and workshop, and organising and delivering teaching at a range of levels.
On no income whatsoever...
laura -
Message 15
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Sign me up, Laura. I've 3 papers and a grant application to do as well as the thesis.
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Message 16
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Right. I've used the cattle prod and am passing it on. Mum and TomCat have promised to keep kicking me. TomCat's taking over storytime duty on my rota-ed days so I can get some work in.
Redbookish, thanks, all points duly noted but I do assure you it is my crashing self-confidence and nothing else (well time pressures of course do affect things). but no, it's fear of failure and rejection that is the driving force behind my procrastination.
Been working on the first paper already. Largely lifting bits of the thesis, but as predicted the illustrations are going to be a major pain in the chuff.
And I'm back to the old problem of how to cull a large amount of text to get to 5000 words. I'm an inveterate waffler.
Quite enjoying it really.
Cat x -
Message 17
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Wednesday, 16th July 2008
Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:29 GMT, in reply to catwomyn in message 16
I do assure you it is my crashing self-confidence and nothing else (well time pressures of course do affect things). but no, it's fear of failure and rejection that is the driving force behind my procrastination.Â
So getting a PhD with only a couple of Tippex corrections is failure & rejection? Hmmmm. I'd love to experience that sort of failure ! but seriously ... yes, your essays could be rejected, but that's just your work, not you. I don't know, I think I've been lucky in that althogh I am overly sensitive and take far too many things personally in my life, I've never done that wit my research. It's weird, and I don't know why that is -- but it's the aspect of tking the work seriousl, but not myself.
So I'm prolly not much help to you there, except to say that if I can not take responses to my work personally, thn anyon can! as I am oversensetive, touchy, and easily feel undermined & defensive in many other aspects of my working lfe (and in my position that touchiness i far more prolematic!)
And I'm back to the old problem of how to cull a large amount of text to get to 5000 words. I'm an inveterate waffler.Â
Now here I can suggest some things which might help.
1. Cut to the chase. If I put you up against a wall & shone a bright light in your eyes, what's the one thing about this particular topic you'd tell me to save being tickled?
2. A trick I was taught when I was making radio programmes: don't think about cutting, think about keeping. What are th bits you want to keep?
3. Cut to the chase. What's your argument, in 25 words on a Cornflakes packet finis this slogan: "In this essay, I will argue that ..." -
Message 18
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Thursday, 17th July 2008
Redbookish I think you might be quite a scary supervisor and as an examiner... well I'm glad you're not going to be in my viva! You've actually *failed* people's PhDs? People, not just one exceptionally bad person? Eek! How bad were they? Really, really bad? I thought people who weren't achieving the required standard got spotted at earlier stages in the PhD process - at least, that's what is said at my University.
In view of what you've just written about taking things personally I'd like to point out that I'm sure I'd enjoy meeting you, hearing about your work, and so on. It's just the thought of you as an examiner that puts the heeby-jeebies up me!
Meanwhile my very good MSc student keeps telling me how popular I am with her classmates (I taught them all for a few weeks) and saying I should become a lecturer. It's nice to hear. However, in a few days' time she'll be showing me the first draft of her thesis and I hope the harsh criticism I usually give at such times doesn't shock her too much! -
Message 19
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Thursday, 17th July 2008
Blimey Red. I wish you had posted your advice when I started my MA. I have saved them just in case. You would have to gthreaten me with more than tickling before I became succinct!
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Message 20
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Thursday, 17th July 2008
Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:58 GMT, in reply to Spud in message 18
Spud -- as far as I recall, I've not recommended award of a PhD and offered the candidate the chance to resubmit for an MPhil twice. And 2 others I've recommended major revisions, but with both, I had severe doubts about whether the candidate was going to be able (for all sorts of reasons) to do this. So I see those as "fails" in that they didn't do the revise & resubmit in the year. Maybe it would have been better to fail the reise & rsubmit straigh uout, but that seems a little harsh. THere's geberally /something/ in a dissertation that is recoverable & rescuable.
But in each of these cases, I was one of 2 examiners (altho' as External I have the final say), and one viva went for about 2 hours. So the opportunities were there for candidates, and I'm not combative in a viva. I care about the *work* first & foremost. And if you want a PhD, then you really do have to work for it. THat's why Cat should NOT feel so low and underestimate her abilities so much -- it is no mean achievement to do what she's done!!
I examine up to 2 PhDs a year either as internal or external. So there are bound to be less than capable candidates over the last 15 years of examining.
But I'm a good supervisor -- I spend time, but I also am very straightforward. I can't see the point otherwise. I'm acknowledged to be quite good at getting languishing candidates to complete!
Now, Cat ... how's it going??? (ask Tusher about my cyber-nagging!) -
Message 21
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Friday, 18th July 2008
Can I ask how long vivas normally go on for in your subject? Cause mine was 2 hours, and that is considered a decent length in my subject. Two of my friends had hour-long vivas, and felt a bit disappointed that they didn't have the chance to discuss things properly. Much longer than about 2.5 to 3 hours and you're getting into sticky questions and serious defending time.
Anyways, it's going OK, I sorted out one of my illustrations last night 'cause I was feeling a bit tired and had a glass of wine on the go. I have another paper to write (for my previous employers - writing up an assesmment I did ages ago to publication standard) so might have a look at that this evening to give myself a change.
Keep up the nagging, folks.
Cat x -
Message 22
Posted by Isabel Archer (U3864018) on Friday, 18th July 2008
Delighted to see the PhD/dissertation thread back. And thanks to Redbookish and others for their wisdom and advice.
My PhD was written some months ago but I have had problems with my supervisor (very nice man but overcommitted) and it is not yet submitted which is infuriating to say the least. I think I have now sorted it but I have had to be FIRM which is not my usual style. With a bit of luck, I will submit in August.
I wanted to give Laura some encouragement - I admire her courage in picking herself up after such a setback and to join in giving Catwoman an almighty kick up the arse for clearly completely underestimating herself. Get out there and do it Cat - you can and you will. Typo corrections only on a PhD? You must be thick as s***.
I thought Red's comments were very perceptive. For a long time, I lived in awe of academics but I now see them as clever but not usually brilliant people who have a certain degree of tenacity and self-motivation (and in my case an allergy to office jobs).
Since finishing work on my PhD, I have started putting myself about a lot more - joining networks, doing papers etc - and feel much less isolated than before. I did publish while I was doing my PhD and hav now been asked to contribute elsewhere. I am now committed fairly thoroughly for the next 18 months and am beginning to see how it is possible to build up a body of work relatively quickly. I have also discovered that most academics are sweet people who will tell you nice things about your work (even if they don't mean it).
So, Cat, I think it is sound advice to force yourself to circulate a bit so that you make some contacts and swap some ideas. You may hear about job openings that way and also, when you apply, there is more chance that someone will say "Oh, that's the nice woman I met at the conference - she'd be good to work with".
Not getting a post is demoralising but, having been on the employer side as well as having been an applicant, I know now how impersonal most of it is - it has little to do with your own intrinsic merits or lack of them and more to do with getting the precise skill set that will fill the hole they currently have. So try not let the rejections get you down - just keep on trying. -
Message 23
Posted by Ceres Daughter (U2231349) on Friday, 18th July 2008
Hello all
so very pleased that this is up and running again.
This is by way of a bookmark. Will be back tomorrow.
Laura, so pleased that you are better and back to the grindstone.
I am writing up and feeling overwhelmed by it all today. I have left the office and am working in the library or at home. Scary but necessary.
I have printed off the words of wisdom above. Much needed and much appreciated.
KOKO -
Message 24
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Sunday, 20th July 2008
In my subject too, a 2-hour viva wouldn't be seen as a long one. I'd actually be a bit offended if mine were shorter! I also think that if in Redbookish's subject, approx. one in fifteen people reach their final viva with a thesis so weak that they are invited to resubmit for a Masters degree instead, that contrasts with my subject. I believe very strongly in maintaining academic standards and I certainly don't think people should get PhDs for working hard, being worthy of sympathy in their personal circumstances, or any such rubbish. PhDs should only be given to those whose achievement is good enough. But reading Redbookish's posts I think there might be subject-to-subject differences in the *time* at which weak students are identified and steered towards a lower-level degree. Would be interested to know what anyone else thinks.
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Message 25
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Sunday, 20th July 2008
Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:25 GMT, in reply to Spud in message 24
Yes, I'm also expecting a good couple of hours when I get to my viva - and friends in a range of medical, science and social sciences have reported that - I thought it was the standard: between two and three, depending.
At the end of my first two years of full-time PhD, some of you may well remember (because you propped me up!), I finally told my HoD about the problems a) of supervision and b) of harrassment problems with someone in another dept - HoD waved a magic wand and arranged a) himself as temp supervisor til new one found, b) new office arrangements and c) that because I'd been doing case-work and running evening classes then we would consider my past 2 years as having done my first year part-time and give me another year's funding (bless the man...).
Anyway my point is that I went to that meeting terrified because the email summoning me had basically said that if I couldn't show something indicating an upcoming thesis, then I would be converted to an M.Phil programme.
I know my dad once failed a PhD as external examiner to another university - they had passed it fine, but there was just something about one part of it... he couldn't quite... what was it... so he asked Fond Mama (mine not his) to read it and she recognised immediately: there were four pages of one of his books, lifted entire, intact, verbatim and with no reference anywhere to its being written by anyone other than the PhD candidate... oops...
What kind of idiot submits a thesis, KNOWING who their external is, with a big chunk of plagiarised work from that author?!?!
Anyway, that's the only kind of thing I now of for failed PhDs - of the half-dozen cases I know for a fact, they have all been serious plagiarism. Not jsut forgetting the odd reference, but really major deliberate knowing plagiarism.
Ceres Daughter, lovely to see you again! Are you on the same email?
laura -
Message 26
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Sunday, 20th July 2008
What kind of idiot submits a thesis, KNOWING who their external is, with a big chunk of plagiarised work from that author?!?!Â
Jaw hits floor! Yes, what kind of idiot?! Unethical too.
A friend who lectures in one of the social sciences tells me she spends huge amounts of her time finding plagiarism, proving it and taking disciplinary action about it. -
Message 27
Posted by Ceres Daughter (U2231349) on Sunday, 20th July 2008
Good morning all -
oops - it is now afternoon - I am in the process of rebuilding my computer.
Feeling a little bit sad and discombobulated - I have left the PhD office in order to write up. Very necessary as whole department is moving to the new (and finally finished) building. When we moved out of the old building at the beginning of my PhD we all lost about 2 weeks of work time due to the kerfuffle - I voiced my concern and my main supervisor (i.e. the one who does all the work and has most face to face and contact time) has told me to get out and not to get involved. My primary supervisor is not impressed, but I have stood my ground. I do not have 2 weeks or so to spare. I have to submit by 30th September.
Feeling a little abandoned as main supervisor off to the Olympics for most of August and primary supervisor 'pops in' on an ad hoc basis during August. However, if I cannot manage to produce a thesis on my own by this stage I should not be doing one. I have masses of data, with a lot of very interesting results. One chapter is complete - Methods - the 'easy' one. All the others are partially complete. I have a timetable to finish and send off to my appointed 'boot up the backside' friends.
Last week I collected my very last set of data and analysed my last samples and washed up the last flipping test tube (~8,000 to date give or take a few). Once all my files are downloaded from my portable HD (only another 62 minutes apparantly) I can do the stats crunch on the analysis results and then get on with the writing.
Tomorrow I am spending my last morning in the lab helping one of my colleagues - a best laid plan gone phut - I was going to go up to the library for the day and lock myself in one of the carrells - no phone reception - no distractions - perfect...I think that I am too kind sometimes.
Laura, how I remember your early PhD years - I was completing my MSc at the time - and strangely enough I had a similar summons at the end of my first year of the PhD...I had been ill and had not told anyone as no one could work out what was wrong with me for ages - so stupidly did not tell supervisors and did not get nearly as much done as they/I thought I should. I had my panel meeting and they asked me whether I should carry on. By then I had been diagnosed (a hugely underactive thyroid) and was being treated and was functioning again so I stood my ground and persuaded them to keep me on - but I was on MPhil watch for the next year - removed at 2nd Panel meeting thankfully.
Top tip: Keep the people who need to know, in the know!
This last year has been hideous as I have had no funding and have had to get whatever work I could to get through. I know lots of ways with lentils!
As to length of time for Vivas in my department - 2 to 3 hours seems to be the norm - certainly never less than 2 hours. Dreading it - but I suspect that most people do not look forward to it. No idea who my external is going to be at the moment.
Plagiarism - grrr - makes me wild - one of my colleagues had an undergraduate who had been doing lab work with him towards their dissertation, who gave it to him to read - a large chunk came from his only paper - only just published!!! Words were said. Not sure of the final outcome.
I am on the same email Laura. I assume that you are too.
I have been lurking with infrequent slipups!
Keeping on keeping on! -
Message 28
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
You're doing the right thing working from home, Ceres. This is the time to focus on what your own thesis needs and let others do the building-move stuff.
Empathy about absentee supervisors! Seems to be a common problem but we get through somehow. -
Message 29
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:57 GMT, in reply to Spud in message 28
Ummm, supervisors have research to do as well, you know! And the admin, and the holding of junior colleagues' and undergrads' hands and .... so on.
For some PhD students, their projects & funding are reliant on supervisors remaining at the top of their game, and pulling in the funding, which gets harder & harder with most grant success rates running at around 15-20% I saw my PhD supervisor maybe once a term. That worked for me. OTOH, I have had research students who expect me to answer a lengthy e-mail once a week. -
Message 30
Posted by Ceres Daughter (U2231349) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
Oh dear, I was not having a pop at my supervisors for having well deserved breaks, just voicing my concern and anticipating missing having them around.
I fully appreciate that my supervisors need holidays, and main supervisor in particular works harder than anyone I know - he is inspirational.
But...I still am feeling a little anxious, which says much more about me than about them or their whereabouts. Still, as I said before, if I cannot do this then I do not deserve a PhD.
And, apart from the odd time, my call on my supervisor's time has been low (particularly when compared to two of my PhD colleagues. I have just been very lucky to have a hands on supervisor who likes to know what we are up to on a regular basis etc. Working with minors all the time also has a large part to play in that I am sure. -
Message 31
Posted by Ceres Daughter (U2231349) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
oh Gosh - now I sound defensive - time to get back to trying to make a figure look right and then getting the blasted thing to anchor itself!
-
Message 32
Posted by Isabel Archer (U3864018) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
Hi Red, just in case I was in your thoughts when you wrote your message - my problems with my supervisor are chronic. He has repeatedly failed to read and comment on work for months on end. I have lost nine months in terms of final submission date because he simply cannot give my work his attention. I am an academic as well as a PhD student and now do my own research so I know what the pressures are but I think this is unacceptable. I have generally been pretty low maintenance, asking for his input maybe twice a year and meeting him once a year (as a part-time PhD student)but now that I really do need his input (a probability I flagged up a year ago), I can't get it.
It has become a major source of stress and I feel I am losing credibility with colleagues who have almost given up asking about it.
I'm not asking for advice at this point - I know what I am going to do if he lets me down with the latest deadline (although I suspect he won't). But I do want to say that there is another side to the stressed out supervisor which is the stressed out student. -
Message 33
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:09 GMT, in reply to Isabel Archer in message 32
Oh no Isabel Archer! I was just commenting generally in response to Spud's comment -- which I also took to be a general one. Your situation sounds appalling, and I assume you've spoken to the PG Director in your School or Faculty, as well as the PG Admin people? -
Message 34
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Tuesday, 22nd July 2008
Yes it was a general comment. Also, after working for just over a decade in academia, I'm well aware of the pressures senior people are under.
Spent a couple of hours this afternoon with my MSc student. She's doing very well (coauthored paper in prep!) and I admit that also it's quite nice to have evidence of how far I've progressed since my own MSc. -
Message 35
Posted by Isabel Archer (U3864018) on Wednesday, 23rd July 2008
Redbookish, going to the Head of Department has to be the next step for me. But I am hoping it can be resolved without that. He has one final deadline that we have both agreed. If he doesn't meet it, I will have to do something.
I am feeling quite cynical about the whole thing actually. We had, I thought, built up quite a good personal relationship over the years - he has tried to assist me with jobs, funding and so on and we have occasionally 'chatted' by email. But that has made it so difficult for me to switch into another, more formal, register. And now I am starting to think that he is counting on that to get away with negelecting his professional duties. -
Message 36
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Wednesday, 23rd July 2008
Isabel I really do feel for you. It sounds very stressful. Might I suggest that you take advice from somebody who understands academia but who isn't directly involved? Your postgraduate tutor, head of graduate school, maybe even your university's counselling service? I say this because I've heard from quite a range of academics that, in their view, when a student is abused or neglected by their supervisor and they take formal action against that supervisor, it's always the student who really loses. No matter what the official outcome. You risk being labelled as the student (unknown name) who fell out with The Great Prof So-and-So. It shouldn't be this way: friends who work in the private sector, the voluntary sector and indeed many parts of the public sector are horrified when I tell them how medieval the academic system remains, how much still depends on 'not losing your reputation' and how little power anybody has against those at the top. It's your situation and your choice. What I'm suggesting is that you get advice on what the *real* outcome will be if you choose each of the options open to you; and also that you focus on your *real* goal. I guess your real goal is to get your PhD and to continue in your career armed with that PhD. Fighting a moral crusade against somebody who is abusing you (and perhaps others) might not be your top priority. Wasting energy on cynical, angry thoughts probably isn't a priority at all. So what do you need to do to achieve your goal?
I do so hope you can get an outcome that works for you. Very big Mustard bunches of good-luck wishes. -
Message 37
Posted by Isabel Archer (U3864018) on Wednesday, 23rd July 2008
That's a very kind post, Spud.
I have no desire to do anything but get my PhD. A formal complaint would be my absolute last resort and, in fact, I don't think it will come to that - he did sound very contrite in his last email. But if it did happen, the main victim would, I think, be my relationship with him and he is a fairly big fromage in my field. So while I am now more confident about my future ability to get along on my own merits without his protection, I am aiming to avoid an open breach if I can. -
Message 38
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Thursday, 24th July 2008
Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:09 GMT, in reply to Isabel Archer in message 37
Unfortunately, just to confirm Spud's view of these things, the decks are stacked against a PhD student with a sub-standard supervisor. Isabel Archer you seem to be doing the sensible thing by just getting on with it, but I would advise an "off the record" conversation with your Faculty, School or Department Postgrad Director. It is unlikely that your PG Director is not aware of the situation. Academic staff get to know each very well (too well sometimes IMO) and we are aware of each other's strengths and failings. We work together so closely, at such a high pitch, and generally under pressure, you can't not know these kinds of things. Although whether your PG Director sees your situation as a problem is another question.
Sometimes things can be done to "save face" which will hep you to. I had a problem dealt with in this way in the middle of my PHD -- 1st supervisor starting to appropriate my work -- not really badly, but enough that the PG Director noticed. 1st supervisor taking a year's sabbatical was a perfect opportunity to go to a 2nd supervisor who was marvellous. But I didn't see that 2nd supervisor any more frequenly than the 1st, actually.
Could you ask about a second supervisor? with the polite fiction that your eminent supervisor is sooo busy, because of said eminence?
But from your account of the situation, it sounds like he (?) hasn't quite mae a shift from friend and colleague to supervisor. I'm now getting vague recollections of you posting about this before (unless I'm imagining things) and it must be an ongoing frustration that he can't make that shift. It seems as though you've got a written record of deadlines for both of you. Have you ever mentioned anything in the annual progress reviews?
Your question to yourself: how much can you manage without the active support of your supervisor in the future, is a very good one. I've had to ask myself similar questions along the way about how much I will need/miss the support of various colleagues. My sense is it's best to try to get on with everyone. but sometimes this isn't possible. -
Message 39
Posted by Loopy Lou (U1484456) on Thursday, 24th July 2008
Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:41 GMT, in reply to Redbookish
Hello all,
I (like Cat) am also post PhD (2.5 years, where does the time go!), with a grand total of zero publications to my name since I quit the halls of academia.
I now work in the same field as my PhD, but for a commercial consultancy, so most project work is confidential and non-publishable. However, I have just recently finished a more academically bent project, and the Client, is quite amenable to publishing, as is quite high profile in my field (and the public at large), and so would possibly be inclined to allow us to write a paper together. It would most likely be for a conference, rather than journal, as this is more commercially pleasing. Luckily for me, the project (and therefore proto-paper) is on a similar subject to one of my thesis chapters, which is how we won the job, so a chunk of the literature review / background is already done…
So, I declare this as my intention to contact the Client, and put fingers to keyboard and put together a paper. Especially as the One Big International Conference looms next year, and it is in the really rather lovely location of Queenstown, New Zealand, and a trip is guaranteed if the paper is accepted. Even if the client says no, I will write up another of my thesis chapters, into a proper paper instead. Crumbs!
Now I have said (typed) it out loud, it would appear that I have to do it. I may well take up Laura’s deadline of the 15th of October, and it is an easily marked date as it is also our wedding anniversary.
Oh, and by the way, I remember in the closing stages of thesis writing agony, I posted a wail of anguish in TVH, and Laura responded, suggesting I go and buy a piece of mustard ribbon to remind me that I wasn’t alone, and that other people did care. I still have that yellow ribbon, tied to my sunglasses case, and carry it everywhere. Now I shall use it to remind me to write the bleedin paper…
Cheers,
Loopy -
Message 40
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Thursday, 24th July 2008
Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:48 GMT, in reply to Loopy Lou in message 39
Yes write it ! And Cat, how's it going? Word count, please ...
Shall have to do the same myself soon. -
Message 41
Posted by Isabel Archer (U3864018) on Thursday, 24th July 2008
Thanks for the sound advice Redbookish. Yes, I am just trying to get on with it - and with life. If it doesn't get resolved over the next few weeks, I intend firstly to write him a very frank email about what this is doing to me professionally and emotionally and, if that doesn't work, talk to the Head of Department. The bugger is that I am working in a fast-moving area and I have to keep updating the wretched thing just when I think I might have done with it.
And I've still got the viva to get through and possibly more work after that.
You are right that I have posted about this before. It has been a constant problem. I think he does mean well but I think he is not emotionally very astute and has failed to appreciate what it feels like for me going through this process and that, even though I am moving forward in my career, the PhD is still vitally important to me.
I wonder if supervisors find it hard to offer appropriate supervision to people who are close to them in age. I have a friend, also a mature student, who has the opposite problem. Her supervisor puts her under pressure to produce work even if she's not ready and then criticises it for being under-developed. It's as if she desn't trust her to write if she isn't cracking the whip. Maybe they just don't know how to adapt to an atypical supervisory relationship.
I have learnt a lot about how to be supervised - which would be useful if it were not a one-off experience. Still, I will try to put it to good use when I start to supervise.
Anyway, I gather we are both passing through terminal 5 this weekend so I will send you a metaphorical wave as I go through.. -
Message 42
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Thursday, 24th July 2008
Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:17 GMT, in reply to Isabel Archer in message 41
I've supervised all ages -- I prefer older candidates as they just get on with things!
Just a thought -- if your supervisor lacks emotional intelligence, is it wise to let him into your emotional world? Would it be better to keep ir on a professional level?
Not travelling (long haul anyway) till late October, but booking now ... Have a good weekend away! -
Message 43
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Saturday, 26th July 2008
if your supervisor lacks emotional intelligence, is it wise to let him into your emotional world? Would it be better to keep ir on a professional level?Â
I had the same thought. Imo a frank email about how his behaviour makes you feel could be open to misinterpretation, even perhaps sounding like an exposure of weakness on your part rather than being effective as a challenge to him. You might also ask whether in your experience of him, email has been the most effective way to communicate. A phone call, an unscheduled conversation (barging into his office) or a post-it note on his door are alternatives which might (or might not) be more useful for achieving the outcome you want. -
Message 44
Posted by Spud (U2255919) on Saturday, 26th July 2008
It's good to hear there's at least one senior academic who likes mature students! I've often been told that the strengths my age gives me are very welcome in the Faculty, but in practice certain senior people seem more than a little bit threatened. Sometimes I've actually concealed the fact that I've been using those strengths - project management, financial planning, communication with the top fromages in my field - because revealing my sensible, useful actions has just got me attacked. Sometimes my actions have saved my PhD from failure (no hyperbole) and I suspect the attacks were really about the discomfort of having one's professional negligence 'shown up'. So I try to be tactful. My priority is to get the PhD, and another of the advantages of being older is that I know nobody is perfect.
-
Message 45
Posted by Patience Boulevard (U2333470) on Sunday, 27th July 2008
My MA dissertation is due on 17 September, final draft about 27 August. 18,000 words. It is going to be ruddy hard work getting it completed, as this year has been hectic and problematical. I really don't want to postpone it another year - I'm with the OU and the MA course is 3 years, which is too long. I could not bear another year.
After reading about Laura's hard drive crash and loss of material, I am, as soon as I have posted this, going to print out what I have produced to date. Gloriana Laura, you have your work cut out, an hats off to you.
Now, I have a query, and it might seem a rather minor thing to be worrying about, but it is bugging me and interfering with my concentration, so ... at the risk of seeming superficial ... I don't know what bluddy font to use for the actual dissertation. My supervisor has asked that all drafts submitted be typed in Arial. I actually don't like Arial very much, it takes up a lot of space on the paper and looks a bit heavy, but at least I don't have to decide whilst I am producing drafts.
I remember some time ago reading, or hearing, that fonts such as Arial, are actually harder to read. But that might be utter tosh. Hang on, just checked my MHRA style guide and it specifies as simple font with serif, and specifically mentions avoiding sans serif fonts such as Arial. There you go, I'm going to print out some fonts as well as chapters in a minute. I feel like a bit of a nutter obsessing about fonts, and other layout decisions; headers, chapter titles, idents at the start of paras or not. I have to put page number at top right hand corner, which I don't like the look of, but there you go.
I feel a bit like a Lower Sixth Former sneaking into the Upper Sixth Common Room, I guess I'm just looking for a bit of encouragement, as "distance learning" feels rather isolated at the moment. -
Message 46
Posted by lauriej (U2867197) on Sunday, 27th July 2008
I find arial hard to read. I'd go for a classical book-like font such as Times or perhaps something like georgia. I always feel a dissertation is a book, so you should aim for that.
I guess with the OU there's no official house style guidelines, or old theses you could look at in a library? -
Message 47
Posted by Patience Boulevard (U2333470) on Sunday, 27th July 2008
Thanks Lauriej, I've just dusted off my style guidelines booklet - Modern Humanities Research Association - I think it is time to read from cover to cover, rather than just the footnotes & bibliography pages.
Thanks for the advice; I think you are right, something classical and book-like.
Glad its not just me finding arial difficult to read. -
Message 48
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Sunday, 27th July 2008
Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:08 GMT, in reply to Patience Boulevard in message 47
Does the OU have a Guide to the Presentation of Theses?
Otherise:
Times New Roman 12 point font
Double spaced
Return after each par (I actually define the Normal style to have an automatic 12 point gap at the end of a par)
Up to you whether you indent new par
AT LEAST a 2.5 cm margin on left & right.
Left margin aligned
No funny stuff! Don't use coloured fonts or anything fancy other than itlaics as required for scholarly apparatus (biblio etc)
The plainer the better. -
Message 49
Posted by Patience Boulevard (U2333470) on Sunday, 27th July 2008
Thanks Redbookish; I've just been perusing the (very brief) OU guidelines, which work in conjunction with the MHRA guide.
Times New Roman is easy to read and looks clean so I'm going with that - no reason not to.
As you say, the plainer the better.
Good to get all this stuff out the way now. -
Message 50
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Sunday, 27th July 2008
Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:35 GMT, in reply to Patience Boulevard in message 49
Yes. I always advise supervisees to set up a style menu in MS Word or whateber they're using, define their styles and then apply them. The last few weeks of submitting a thesis are bad nough -- get the formatting, your biblio and references sorted before that!
Keeping your bibliography & /or list of works cited up to date is a useful thing to do when your brain feels like it can't compose another sentence ...
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