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Christian Thread No.2
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:10 GMT
New and improved and WITHOUT the whisper!
Welcome. -
Message 2
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Monday, 28th July 2008
hello Drystane and friends
*Found* you all again! nice to see the same comfy sofas & beanbags & tea/coffee-making bits & pieces about. And the big 'welcome' sign on the front door
picking up the former thread and responding to something Sunny said - you have been struggling with the same sorts of issues as I have been recently (as you'll see if you wade back far enough on the old thread). Someone gave me a lovely piece of advice which was to 'just be'. It helped enormously and gave me the space to stop worrying about what I wasn't and celebrate more what I *am*. Does that make sense? It's back to Martha & Mary - I think sometimes the 'being busy', in whatever form, takes over and the opening your heart & mind & letting God in can be squeezed out.
Intersting points too about differences between congregrations in welcoming & unwelcoming behaviour. I know we can all quote both types of experience. Do people think a church congregation takes their lead from their minister, or the other way round? Trying to work out how some are welcoming to strangers/newcomers, & some not, really.
P
x -
Message 3
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Pina, I will read your message in a mo. but I think because of the changeover no welcome was extended to "notadomesticgoddess". So welcome, glad you found DD's thread and I hope it doesn't take too long to read the old thread, which was a miracle of calm and reasonableness [well mostly!]
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Message 4
Posted by Whittocks (U7537200) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Bookmarking mostly, but also...
...I was on a short holiday in Dorset a few years ago (friend's 40th celebrations) and we attended the parish church's morning service. It wasn't Eucharistic, we ate loads of Simnal cake instead.
The congregation was lovely - not so pally as to be smothering, let us have our "space", just made sure that we had the necessary books, and tea and cake but without loads of questioning about who we strangers were. So we were relaxed and found it much easier to talk to all these strangers. Alright, lots of them were old boys and gals and my friend and I are comfy in the whole Anglican/BCP/Hymns Ancient and Modern arena. But the vicar and his reader were just the same and I felt that so much came from what was clearly their friendly and open attitude in the context of strong and appreciated leadership. -
Message 5
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Monday, 28th July 2008
re message 2 PinaG
Do people think a church congregation takes their lead from their minister, or the other way round? Trying to work out how some are welcoming to strangers/newcomers, & some not, really.Â
We seem to be a mix of churches, so we can speak of our own traditions. I was brought up a Methodist, which has an itinerent ministry [used to be the minister moved every 3 years but it is longer between moves now] That came from the early days of Wesley's itinerent preachers who had circuits to ride round, looking after small meetings of methodist. We still have circuits but the minister[s] have manses; in the old days the lucky preachers might have somewhere to stable the horse and a place to sleep!
In some parts of the country, society is very mobile. Unless busy churches have members assigned to welcome newcomers, and have some way of making sure that they can make themselves known [if they wish to do do so] I can see a shy person finding a church quite unwelcoming. Card in the pew to fill in perhaps?
I don't think my hobby horse has had a gallop lately : cliques are abhorent, both for those who are within and those outside. And the result can make newcomers run a mile. -
Message 6
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Monday, 28th July 2008
The last church I attended regularly wasn't always as welcoming as it could have been and I'm sure that a lot of it was down to the altar server.
I'm not sure as to exactly what his role was, but he seemed to do more than just altar serving.
One evening, I was just arriving and a passing woman asked for some money. This man told her to go away. She disappeared whilst I was still groping in my pocket for some money and to this day I regret not chasing after her. I was then subjected to a tirade by this man about how awful it was that the beggarwoman had her face covered in paint and obviously sniffed it.
After that, I always made sure that I covered my arms in case my cutting habit also met with that sort of disapproval. I did not want to be chased away from the church.
I suppose that it's a matter of understanding. Maybe if you've never hit rock bottom, you can't understand how anyone could end up with bad habits and begging. -
Message 7
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Monday, 28th July 2008
I've been to quite a variety of churches over the years, and the thing I'd have liked to have seen, but which didn't seem to happen was for someone to meet with a newcomer and offer to sit with them. I have met some very kind people in all sorts of churches, but it is very difficult when you are a solitary newcomer. I quite liked the church where they used to make a point of inviting anyone who was new to coffee and biscuits afterwards so that they could meet with others. I've noticed that some of my local churches do coffee mornings and I've been trying to get round to going to one.
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Message 8
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:53 GMT, in reply to Sunny Clouds in message 7
Trouble is, Sunny, if someone pounced on me when I went to a church for the first time and offered to sit with me, I would probably go "er, I am just here for the stained glass, is it really as late as that, must fly", so one has to go gently...my church is friendly, but unpushy - everyone is included in the Peace and encouraged to go and have coffee afterwards, where they will be welcomed warmly. I think most people find that enough - well, I hope so, or if not I hope they would tell us. -
Message 9
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Yes, I can see that it's a tricky one, but I have gone for years attending the same church, saying hello to people and being frozen out with the exception of two people, one of whom said the bare minimum, and then only because we got off the bus at the same stop.
I don't know what the answer is, but surely there's some sort of half-way house where people can be asked if they're happy alone or if they'd like some company?
I suppose I'm particularly aware of issues like this as I look around at local churches in search of a new one. -
Message 10
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Monday, 28th July 2008
I can see Sunny's point, DD, but I prefer the cautious approach myself and going to coffee afterwards is a good idea.
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Message 11
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Monday, 28th July 2008
P.S. I am not at all sure I should be pontificating about approaches to churches. The church here which I attend is the first one in my entire life where I wasn't in either my dad's or my [ex] OH's church and therefore the first one I went to by my own choice!
Manse brat! -
Message 12
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Monday, 28th July 2008
I hope I didn't come on too strong. I don't know what the balance is, I just know that going to church week after week with no one returning your greetings and smiles is a disheartening experience.
Maybe I'm doing it the wrong way round. Maybe you find someone to go to church with and go to their church rather than picking a church and then looking for someone there to get on with. -
Message 13
Posted by barefoot choirmistress (Grade 1 listed status at present but soon to be partly demolished. The wrecking ball has started its upward swing, ready to demolish my name) (U2220849) on Monday, 28th July 2008
HI Sunny
I don't know if you've come across mystery shopping - people are paid go into a shop so that the business can check how customers are treated - but for 10 years Ship of Fools has been doing a Mystery Worship, focusing especially on the welcome newcomers receive.
I love this website but it's not to everyone's taste
so enter at your peril!
bc -
Message 14
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Thanks for the link. It makes fascinating reading. There was a write up on a church that a friend attends. Sadly, it did not encourage me to join her.
I shall have to do some "mystery shopping" of my own and check out all the local churches until I find somewhere welcoming. I've got past caring very much about the denomination. -
Message 15
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:55 GMT, in reply to Sunny Clouds in message 14
I did try several churches in Edinburgh before I settled on the one I still go to six years on. Most were pretty unfriendly - the cathedral gets a dishonourable mention - mine was the exception, but as I say, it is low-key friendliness.
I don't think denomination matters much either except in that some denominations think it does and it can be awkward (for example) being in a conservative RC church if you are not RC at all. -
Message 16
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Monday, 28th July 2008
BTW - I found the whisper thread welcoming to me as a newcomer. It helps.
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Message 17
Posted by BartelbysBestFriend (U6171640) on Monday, 28th July 2008
Mainly bookmarking.
But went to the link, and looked up where I worship- and the criticism - exactly what many of us had said for some time, (but is now better) - not enough information when service times are changed because of special services! -
Message 18
Posted by barefoot choirmistress (Grade 1 listed status at present but soon to be partly demolished. The wrecking ball has started its upward swing, ready to demolish my name) (U2220849) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
It's disappointing to hear that many churches are not welcoming as there is masses of info available these days. Google Ministry of Welcome for more info.
We have been working on this at our church including information of people come in for a look round, invitation to stay for coffee in the notice sheet that everyone receives and so on. It's very much a team (priest + congregation) effort.
bc -
Message 19
Posted by barefoot choirmistress (Grade 1 listed status at present but soon to be partly demolished. The wrecking ball has started its upward swing, ready to demolish my name) (U2220849) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
I shall have to do some "mystery shopping" of my own and check out all the local churches until I find somewhere welcoming. I've got past caring very much about the denomination.Â
Hi Sunny -in our area we have 3 CoE churches and two non-conformist + 2 RC churchs, all within a vert close distance. Neighbouring town has 3 or 4
CoE churches within a team ministry plus other denominations. People tend to go to the church which they feel comfortable with: high/low, trad music/new music etc etc. The concept of a "neighbourhood" church is much more common now than a parish/local church.
bc -
Message 20
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
oops, silverjenny - i have the attention span of a flea (not The Flea) so apols for not saying 'hello' notadomesticgoddess.....there's me doing exactly what we're talking about in some churches!
*loved* the Mystery Worshipper, bc, both the concept of it and the website.
It's a difficult one, isn't it, knowing how much to approach someone new? Like Drystane, I think if I was trying a different church I'd run away if someone came over to me the minute I walked through the door and offered to sit with me, but I would find it a bit odd when no one makes eye contact at all, especially after a few weeks of regular attendance. That's why I was wondering whether it's the congregation or the atmosphere set by the minister which has the greater effect. -
Message 21
Posted by barefoot choirmistress (Grade 1 listed status at present but soon to be partly demolished. The wrecking ball has started its upward swing, ready to demolish my name) (U2220849) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
offering to sit with someone is patronising in the extreme - and often absolutely the LAST thing that's wanted.
a smile at the end of the service and a 'do please stay for coffee' is the right approach I think.
I think it's important for sidespeople to show newcomers to a seat that isn't someone's special place!
bc -
Message 22
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:43 GMT, in reply to barefoot choirmistress in message 21
I'm not sure it's patronising - I don't particularly mind being patronised (a female fly-fisher gets used to it!). I would not like it because I am solitary and don't like being crowded or to have company forced on me. But I can see that if you go into a church looking for (among other things) Christian fellowship, and if it were done in the right sort of way it would be OK. -
Message 23
Posted by barefoot choirmistress (Grade 1 listed status at present but soon to be partly demolished. The wrecking ball has started its upward swing, ready to demolish my name) (U2220849) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
perhaps the main thing is that, when you are shown somewhere to sit, the people nearby smile and use body language that makes them accessible if needed without being overwhelming.
perhaps patronising is the wrong word but I can't think of a better.
the Queen Mother used to fly fish - I bet she gave short shrift to anyone who patronised her!
bc -
Message 24
Posted by Quezzie (U2255959) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
I think the size of the church makes a big difference. In a large congregation, people may actually not notice when new people come along. Of course there are some which do notice, and are just unfriendly, but I think it is easier to spot newbies in a small church.
My church is huge, and has lots of services, so when I see someone I don't recognise, I don't know if I've just not spotted them before or if they usually go at a different time or what. Makes me a bit unsure about going up to people to try to welcome them - I'm a relative newbie myself, and they might have been in the parish for years.
Q xx -
Message 25
Posted by Quezzie (U2255959) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
If the church has a coffee-after-service, I think looking out for people who are on their own at coffee is a really good thing.
If people are new/on their own in the church, they might actually really want that space and privacy during the service. But if someone has been brave enough to come to coffee and are still on their own, chances are, they'd welcome a chat (whether they are new or not).
Q xx -
Message 26
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
It really is a difficult subject, isn't it. A friend moving to a new area wanted to become part of a church congregation quite quickly. She attended a Cof E church near to her. She was given a card to fill in and other information, and welcomed. She enjoyed the service but wasn't sure about the music. Went back the following week with her card and approached the person she had spoken to the previous week. She was so astounded by the reply 'Oh don't bother giving it to me, I'm not on duty this morning' she walked out before the service began. Lesson 1. How to drive away new members!
Prize for "unwelcoming" goes to a church a colleague's wife attended. Her OH was away for several weeks and was about to leave his job for partial retirement. Friend went along for weeks and felt most unwelcome apart form a very elderly gentleman who took her under his wing, and the minister who had several churches to look after so didn't have too much time to spare. Husband turned up and the following Sunday they went together. To her complete horror, invitations suddenly poured out from the hostile congregation for anything from coffee mornings to dinner. Her husband, who had been told of his wife's experience, very quietly and politely refused every one, and with his wife and their elderly friend, walked out.
I do know that some people actually pefer just to worship and leave the service without wanting any social contact but in these two cases, the "unwelcome" was very marked. -
Message 27
Posted by silverjenny (U4717129) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
Quezzie, I know what you mean. I could charge up and welcome someone who has been there since Noah was in short pants and offend them for weeks!
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Message 28
Posted by JennyDarling Long Gone (U250754) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
Drystane, you mentioned the Peace. I have been in churches where some people swoop down on their pals when the Peace is offered, loads of mwah! and hugs, and others are left out! I prefer it when everyone turns to their neighbours and shakes hands warmly, with appropriate God-inspired words.
It can be embarassing too, to go up to someone and say Hi, are you new? when they've been members of the church for longer than you have! I know this feeling, as I go to the 8 am communion and don't often meet the 10 am or 6 pm crowd.
Glad this thread is continuing - a quiet place in a noisy world! -
Message 29
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
TJD, I am so glad you mentioned about the hugs in church. I was beginning to think I was a alien. I am quite happy to hug members of my family and a couple of friends but on the whole I dislike being hugged by people I don't know very well. Warm handshake and a kiss on the cheek perhaps!
[My kids when young, kept a league table of preachers' handshakes, from wet fish through to bone cruncher!]
I remember reading an Elizabeth Goudge story about the matriarch of the Eliot family at Damerosehay, when she was a great age, 90+, I think, sayng how she hated being hugged and had great sympathy with small children who probably hated it too! So maybe it is a sign of advancing years. -
Message 30
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Tuesday, 29th July 2008
Just posted a message but now I am in pre-mod, not been bad but my sign-in identity disappeared into the ether so I suppose the message will be quite out of kilter by the time it gets through. bother and pooh!
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Message 31
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Got through quickly, amazing.
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Message 32
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Silverjenny. I usually stay out of here but just wanted to comment what a difference having a man around makes. I have joined the WI and another social club for older people (wot me?). The women in the WI and the mixed people (although these are mostly widows at the social club were thawing slowly although there was on be lovely women at the WI who immediately took me under her wing. Anyway, both clubs run day trips. I went on my own on a fed as my OH is still working. He took the day off and came on two. The difference in everyone's friendliness was marked! Why on earth is this?
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Message 33
Posted by Jules Bee (U3036149) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:49 GMT, in reply to silverjenny in message 27
I understand the difficulty in not knowing whether someone is a visitor/new member, especially in bigger churches. I think it's possible to get round it by going up to the person with a smile and saying something like, "Hello, I don't think we've met? Have I just missed meeting you before now?", which acknowledges that if you're both existing members, there can still be people you don't know, but also gives the other person the chance to explain that they are new, or visiting. It may still give offence to some long-standing members who feel that everyone OUGHT to know them, but I think it would cover the situation for most reasonable people! -
Message 34
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
One's own 'special' seat in a church???????!!!! Blimey. Is it divinely ordained?
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Message 35
Posted by woofti aka groovy gravy (U1483210) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:10 GMT, in reply to furiouslocki in message 34
Probably, Locki. I had my own corner of the College Bar which people tended to respect when I walked in ("Guinness?" "Yup.") -
Message 36
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
[Drystane, you mentioned the Peace. I have been in churches where some people swoop down on their pals when the Peace is offered, loads of mwah! and hugs, and others are left out! I prefer it when everyone turns to their neighbours and shakes hands warmly, with appropriate God-inspired words.]
Dry, I occasionally go to Mass, as do my two sisters, although elder Sis and I are now Brethren...
Anyway... we trotted off one Sunday to please Dad as it was a 'special' Mass for a deceased rello.
The place was chocka... come the sign of peace and we dutifully shook hands with those either side.. then turned to each other... looked down.. FIVE HANDS! Turned out little sis was behind us and had shoved her hand forward so it was between us... well.... you know when you get the innapropriate giggles.... -
Message 37
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Snork Woofti.
But isn't god supposed to be more egalitarian than the world of academia?! He's meant to be a bit of a communist really! I'm sure god should approve of communism even though it didn't believe in him. Of course it has never been carried out. You see special' seats and people in the church is what puts some people off church and religion.
I'm really glad you are feeling better. I have had panic attacks and they are 'orrible enough. A preparation for Hell perhaps? -
Message 38
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
message 34 Locki
The church by Whitby Abbey has a box pew with a fireplace in it, whch I think was used by the gentry. Quite liked the idea; it has high sides so one could have the fire lit and maybe take a book along in case the sermon was tedious! -
Message 39
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Yes silverjenny. I know that churches in the past were very hierarchal but now.........? And I know one (usually a man ) often has one's 'own chair' at home but in church?
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Message 40
Posted by Tiferet (U11543134) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
In the old days you would pay for your family pew. It was a way for the church to raise money.
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Message 41
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Locki, certainly in larger chapels, I think some of the Victorian attitudes were involved and continued. Poople paid pew rent which went towards upkeep costs, and then there were free pews. "The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" school of thought pervaded church going as much as the rest of society.
I didn't realise that people still had their own seats. I agree it would be very off-putting for a new member or an inquirer. -
Message 42
Posted by myhuckleberryfriend (U9588385) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Victorian?
My father became rector in a piscy (Episcopalian) church in oh, let me see, the early sixties, in a an industrial area. The main aisle had reserved pews and were heated whilst the side aisle was free and freezing. The practice hadn't been abolished for various reasons, raising money was only one of them. There were so few parishioners it was hardly worth while I can't remember the actual fee but £2.2/6d. springs to mind which wasn't hardly extortionate.
Anyway all fees were abolished at the second vestry meeting that Dad attended. I think the first one was taken up by the frequent theft of lead from the roof and was it the father of one of the choir boys? (to be continued!)
On the other matter, I've found warm welcomes the first and second time in a strange church but after that one is considered not a stranger and those are the times I've had difficulties.
huckie -
Message 43
Posted by IM (U1905027) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Silverjenny,
Thanks for your welcome. I will have a quick sprint through the board over the next couple of days - I am enjoying/being challenged by what I read and praying for those asking for help.
Look forward to reading your comments.
Blessings on us all. -
Message 44
Posted by Kate McLaren etc (U2202067) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:26 GMT, in reply to myhuckleberryfriend in message 42
I think in some churches where there has always been The Big House containing a Squire and a Family there may still be official private pews with names on. But more generally people tend to sit in the same place every week and are either surprised or actually a bit put out if they find someone sitting in THEIR place. This is idiotic, but it is human nature.
Grace builds on nature but it does not destroy it, even the bits which one would perhaps like it to destroy. -
Message 45
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Being territorial makes us feel as we are safe, I think. I can get possessive about the most dismal of work spaces.
In a similar way at church, making for the same pew/seat beomes part of a person's worship experience. Sanctuary for a timid soul, power trip for an arrogant one? -
Message 46
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U7606212) on Thursday, 31st July 2008
I used to like watching who sat where in church. I tended to get there early, which wasn't ideal, because I couldn't adjust where I sat according to where other people sat.
I used to hope that one man would avoid me. He would rustle carrier bags loudly when he was sitting down and when he stood up he would lean further and further forward until he was touching the person in front. I used to try and inch sideways without being too sudden and obvious about it. Somehow he seemed to end up standing behind me more and more often. Maybe he liked standing behind me. -
Message 47
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Thursday, 31st July 2008
I went to a party with a sit down meal. We had to rotate seats so as to chat to different guests. Perhaps the church could adopt this method?
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Message 48
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 31st July 2008
Sunny Clouds, you reminded me of a church I went to when when OH was at university. City church with a very mixed lively congregation. There was an elderly Jamaican man who had a lovely singing voice but was always a beat behind in the hymns; if I was near him, I was too!
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Message 49
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 31st July 2008
longish train journey today and I began thinking about this whole question of making people feel welcome at the particular church we attend. And looked at the thing from the other end.
why do we have churches?
Why have we made life so complicated for ourselves with the burden of property, expense of clergy and church liturgy.
I am not being flippant [and I am not inviting a lecture on church history] Just interested to know how we got from Jesus preaching on a Galilean sea shore to worrying our heads about Flossie Whosit not feeling welcome when she decides to go to service at St Anysaints. -
Message 50
Posted by Now Locking for a house (U3261819) on Thursday, 31st July 2008
That's what I would like to know too jenny. Perhaps it's because humans can't leave well alone and have to 'improve'. Like me, they often make things worse by doing this.
Why do you think god gave us the ability to argue against him? Was it just part of free choice?
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