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Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:50 GMT
'Night all, just asking for a bit of advice from the experienced ML parents!!
I have a six year old daughter who is a bright, delightful girl, doing well at school, popular, etc.
We live in a relatively small village and as a result most of us know each other, live near each other, mums are friendly with each other, etc.
Daughter has a particular friend (let's call her Annie) who she's been with since age 1 at nursery - circumstance has meant they went on to be in the same class at school, and do all the same extra-curricular activities, at the same time. We are also pretty friendly with her parents and often see each other socially (with all the children) in a larger group of friends.
Annie has always been a bit of a handful, even when she was small. She has a very dominant character, and while my daughter is no shrinking violet and quite a bossy boots herself, she is no match for her friend and often gets dragged/pursuaded/bossed into things she wouldn't normally do by Annie. Annie has two younger siblings and both parents work - I have serious misgivings about the way they are being brought up which I always kept to myself considering it to be none of my business, but since the new school year began I feel it's getting out of control and beginning to affect my daughter.
Firstly I have been told by all my daughter's teachers that when Annie is in class she easily leads DD (amongst others) astray and that it is a shame because DD is basically a pleasant, hard-working and focused little girl. All confirm that when friend is not there, or at least separated from her, DD is an utter delight to teach, and extremely responsive.
DD is also beginning to feel uncomfortable with Annie at times - she comes back with daily reports of how she lies, steals, shouts, swears, and is generally badly behaved. DD doesn't approve of this behaviour (hurrah! Some of my motherly chat has registered!) and whenever she can tries to play with her other friends. The problem arises after school (which finishes at 2pm) and they go on to lunch, then after school activities together, with less alternative company to keep. Annie disrupts DD continually and to be honest it has now got to the stage where I (and lots of other mums) find her utterly unpleasant.
The latest was DD piping up at the weekend "Mummy, what does (the F word) mean?" I handled it as best I could (she understands the basic biological concept of how babies are made, without the gory detail for now, thank you very much) having first told her that a) that is a dreadful word and b) Annie probably doesn't even know what it means herself and shouldn't be talking like that either. DD then went on to relate what Annie had been telling her about watching a couple performing a 69 (in gory detail) - which, despite being quite a relaxed mummy in these matters, utterly shocked me. Once again, I handled it as best I could...but have been left reeling by this - another in a long line of "things-I-don't-want-my-daughter-exposed-to-at-her-age".
Basically, this six-year-old is completely out of control. She is rude, foul-mouthed, aggressive, spoilt, attention-seeking, manipulative, crafty, she lies to get her own way, has a tantrum if she doesn't, shows no respect for anyone - adults and children alike, steals from her classmates on a daily basis...none of it is really her fault, IMHO, but my problem is that I think she is an appalling influence on my daughter and somehow want to solve it.
So far I've taken the line of lots of honest, open talking with daughter, hoping to help her see, of her own accord, that Annie doesn't really act like a very good friend sometimes and that she doesn't really want to follow that example, to keep making lots of other friends and spend time with others when she feels uncomfortable around Annie, etc. I has also spoken to her quite firmly re activities - reiterating that these are for learning and practicing the activity in question, not messing around because Annie says she should. Her teachers tell me that she has improved greatly in this regard since Christmas, so I am feeling relatively positive about that.
However I feel I want to /should do more. My gut reaction is to try to separate them completely - but this is a)impossible and b) probably not a very good idea or particularly fair. I would like to talk to the mother, but just don't know where to start, plus she is very stressed out at the moment (to sum up she simply can't cope with her three children despite having her husband, two BILs and her parents in law on hand every day to help out) and is on a reasonably high dose of anti-depressants and sleeping tablets...I don't think it would be helpful to charge in like a bull in the proverbial china shop and I could also lose a friendship over this - on the other hand if her daughter carries on this way it may end up being lost anyway...plus I dread to think what yhis could come to when they're 12, 13, 14...I suppose I'm looking to take some control of the situation for the good of my daughter while I still can. I wouldn't dream of telling her outright not to be Annie's friend - I prefer to let her work it out for herself, but on the other hand she's only six, she's my (on the whole) lovely, active, bright, sociable, pleasant generally polite and pretty well-behaved little girl, and I'd quite like her to stay that way.
GOsh this has become a complete ramble. I'm tired and actually beginning to chew this over and over at nights, wondering what, if anything I can or should do, whether to let it run its course, or guide my DD more firmly in a different direction, speak to the school...I've even considered taking both children out of that school and putting them in the one in the next village.
Oh dear. I wonder if anyone in ML has any experience of this kind of situation, or advice/opinons. And if not, well at the very least, it's been rather helpful to pour it all out on (ML) paper...Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 2
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:02 GMT, in reply to Alejandrita in message 1
You know, you may have solved the problem. My neighbours had a child who became very unruly. It appeared that living with their parents, the child was being given instruction from the grandparents as well as the parents. While the parents were there. It undermines the children a bit when that happens.
Maybe you could kidnap the mother and take her out for a shopping expotition and find out what is bugging her. Maybe her job is a nightmare, or just Annie, and she can't quite work out where to go with her. Maybe she needs some quality time alone with Annie during the holidays. Half term is coming up around Valentines day. Why not suggest that she catches up with her outstanding annual leave and takes Annie away on her own to Say Centre Parcs. Then they can talk and see if she can work out a strategy. The teachers would help devise a development programme, as they did for my daughter with different educational problems with her own daughter.
None of my business, but it might help. To approach her with a non-judgemental plan in mind.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 3
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
DD then went on to relate what Annie had been telling her about watching a couple performing a 69 (in gory detail) Â
Loud thud as jaw hits floor.
Anything I post now is simply opinion not advice, I am not qualified and have no experience.
I would be really worried about this girl's home life if she is exposed to this, either with access to movies or as a real life witness.
I can quite understand you not wishing to talk to the mother on this, there must be a lot going on and her depression is possibly a symptom of stuff that is going on behind closed doors.
Is there someone in the school with pastoral care responsibilities? I think this has to be tackled by professionals and you cannot ignore it.
IMHO.
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Message 4
Posted by witchwoman (U2992515) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
I would be really worried about this girl's home life if she is exposed to this, either with access to movies or as a real life witnessÂ
I'm with Nomad on this one. This is a very alarming thing to have reported back as coming from a six year old, and it needs urgently to be referred to the school. Their child protection policy should swing into action and that way both your concerns for your own DD and the issue of Annie's own wellbeing should be addressed. The school will be obliged to keep your name and your daughter's confidential, so don't have any worries about comeback from Annie's family. In any case, it is clearly in her interests to pass this issue on to someone who will deal with whatever is happening. It sounds as if some of her behaviour could be part of a response to a less than ideal home life.
Good luck with it all.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 5
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Alenjandrita, it is probably relevant to point out that you live in Spain (I believe) so that responders appreciate that there may be a difference in how schools handle things.
With all due respect Rwth I think this is way beyond Alenjandrita kidnapping the mother for an expedition and finding out what is bugging her.
Annie's apparent behaviour and knowledge of things she should not have been exposed to at her age sets alarm bells ringing for me. Factor in the mother's depression as well, there is something seriously wrong.
IMHO.
XNoLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 6
Posted by jane_berry (U3025755) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Alenjandrita - I would not want my 6 year old involved with this girl. Tough though as the school situation is totally seperate from the local one. Much more difficult to seperate them at school - good luck
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Message 7
Posted by jane_berry (U3025755) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Agree XNo - something seriously wrong going on in that household and that child needs protecting. It's not just schools that Alenjandrita needs to know about but local child protection agencies as well
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Message 8
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:54 GMT, in reply to witchwoman in message 4
Thanks for those responses. It is all rather alarming. As I say, I know the mother pretty well, indeed she has often asked me (and other mums) for advise on how to handle not only Annie, but also her middle child, who is 3. Her one-year-old is, quite amazingly, equally foul, insofar as it's possible for such a small child to be - (tantrums, kicking and screaming, wanting his own way all the time, straight away). She has never, ever taken any of the advice offered, despite it registering and her understanding the logic. The irony of it all is that she is a trained psychologist. Her current way of handling her situation is to run away from it all - she will palm her children off to pretty much anyone so as not to have to put up with them, even on holidays and weekends. They consequently have little or no daily routine, inconsistency in terms of limits, discipline, etc. and are more often than not "kept quiet" with a huge bag of sweets or crisps, and are quite clearly crying out for attention. I've tried to be supportive on countless occasions, simply by being sympathetic, listening, and relating what works and what doesn't work for me with my two...but it falls on deaf ears unfortunately. As I say, I've always been loathe to proffer unsolicited advice on parenting as I know how annoying it can be...but now it's beginning to affect my own family and I'm really worried - mainly for my daughter, but also for them. I feel a duty to talk to my friend honestly about this, but a) I'm not really sure how to go about it and b) I'm beginning to wonder if she'll register the seriousness of what I'm saying, let alone take it seriously.
I have an appointment to talk to DD's form teacher on Monday and may bring up the subject then, although I have to tread very carefully there too - this is Spain, and in a small village like this gossip and scandal gets out as if by magic - something similar happened only yesterday to another friend over a completely different issue. There is a welfare officer at the school who I warmed to immediately upon meeting - perhaps she is the right person to talk to...I think what's holding me back is the feeling that I should address this directly with the mother first, seeing as I know her well. It somehow feels rather underhand and dishonest to "go behind her back". I'm sort of stuck on this one. Which in itself is odd as I'm normally not one to mince my words or shy away from confronting serious issues.
Sigh. I'm off to bed to sleep on it (again)...maybe I'll wake up tomorrow with some greater clarity on the matter.
Thanks again. It's great to get it off my chest to impartial listeners (OH is understandably FURIOUS and if it were up to him we'd never speak to anyone in the family ever again - doesn't do things by halves, my OH!!)Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 9
Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Alejandrita - I'm SO much in agreement with the posters who think there may well be something very wrong with the what going on in the child's home.
At the VERY least, she's beng exposed to porn films - did she find them by herself? It's just about possible, since we've had a period of getting popups leading to hard-core porn on my own PC, which seem to come via MSN etc links. If so, it's still hopeless parenting, and as you say, will get far worse before she's a teen. But hard for you to handle until your own DD catches on - I think she will with your help.
But it could easily be far worse (and I find it hard to think that a 6-y-old who comes across stuff like that isn't going to be shocked anyway) i she talks about it normally, I think others in her home know about it. So the question is who is showing her this, and why?
No answers, I'm afraid, as I know villages can make things quite complex, but if you can find a way of doing something discreetly, I think you should.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 10
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:22 GMT, in reply to Alejandrita in message 8
I've just re-read my posts and realised how confused I sound and how I'm completely contradicting myself...oh dear! That's what a muddle I'm in. Gosh parenting is a difficult job. And I'm reliably informed that all this is just the tip of the iceberg. I dread to think what I'll be like when we get to the adolescent stage...
Must get some sleep but will come back (hopefully more coherently) in the morning.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 11
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
It's obviously your decision Alenjandrita on how you handle it. You are the one who knows the situation and all the people in real life.
The welfare officer sounds like a good starting point. An alternative might be the Spanish equivalent of your GP, I assume they are bound by patient confidentialty and if you can present the issue as concern for your own daughter then they may be able to advise you on the appropriate channels.
Your first responsibility is to your own family. If you can find a way through this and still remain friends with Annie's Mum then that would be great, it sounds like she needs a lot of emotional and practical support. Just don't do that to the detriment of yourself and your own.
The usual caveats apply, I have no idea what I am talking about most of the time so please feel free to ignore me.
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Message 12
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Alejandrita, a very difficult situation for you to be in. It is unacceptable for your daughter to be influenced by Annie's bad behaviour. But it seems clear that Annie herself is not only being neglected but exposed to influnces no young child should have in her life. You do not mention a father figure - is it possible that she is placed in contact with someone who is abuusing her in some way?
As far as your friend being a psychologist goes, she may know what 'should' happen but, faced with the never-ending demands of a young family, have no way of dealing with them at a practical level or even have the first idea of establishing a routine for them.
Pity she is not in UK, at least then the youngest could be seen by someone form SureStart and your friend would get suppost. It is difficult to suggest what to do since I don't know how the Spanish system works re child neglect and offering support for mothers.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 13
Posted by Adaptery (with brackets) (U13803003) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
If your school has more than one class per year group, then they may want to separate them and you would agree.
Gradually start finding other after school interests (piano lessons if you get desperate).
I don't think you can solve other people's problems for them in this siuation, especially if you believe you child is taking the flack.
SLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 14
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
(to sum up she simply can't cope with her three children despite having her husband, two BILs and her parents in law on hand every day to help out) Â
Presumably the husband is a father figure.
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Message 15
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Xno, sorry, hadn't taken that bit in. Better get off to bed.
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Message 16
Posted by peskylogin (U2369503) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Can you take your daughter to different after school activities.
I don't think I would chat to the mother - she might just take your comments out on her daughter! maybe accuse her of lying or something. She doesn't sound the type to be able to take things in hand sensibly.
Why aren't other parents becoming involved if Annie's behaviour is so unpleasant? Maybe in Spain it is assumed that the family sorts things out.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 17
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Can you not talk to the teacher at school? That's what I would do. The teacher could then talk to the parent without mentioning your name.
I'd also mention the pornographic element. I find that most concerning.
My god-daughter had a naughty friend called Ch. when in primary school, but then they went on to two different schools and the problem was solved. And Ch. had already started to calm down by then and wasn't at all bad when she wasn't throwing a tantrum. But your situation, Alejandrita, is horrific.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 18
Posted by dimoniona (U4063858) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Alejandrita,
Not a nice situation and horrible to be up worrying about it in the night. We had a very similar one with Big Daught., now 13. Two children in her class of twelve were rather like this, a boy and a girl. Short of moving or taking her to another village for school (not options really) the only real answers were to make sure she saw other friends a lot and did different after school activities, (someone suggested piano, she did that: just with the teacher for the piano and and a class of mixed ages for the theory).
Your daughter sounds as if she knows what's right and wrong and that's probably the main thing with some reinforcement, difficult sometimes to do without dissing the other child.
I have been amazed at some of the stuff both my girls' friends are allowed to watch on the telly, and by their bad language. Your case sounds rather extreme though and I would mention it to the teacher when you see him/her.
Big daught. is now in her second year in secondary school in the nearest "big" town, she ended up going to a different insti. from the terrible two and now, even though they're in the same village she only sees them when she wants to.
Good luck!
Dim.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 19
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:39 GMT, in reply to dimoniona in message 18
Morning all, thanks for your thoughts on this one.
I barely slept a wink last night, and to top it all DD wet her bed again last night (three times in a week). I'm still doing lots of talking with my daughter to support her to do what she thinks is right and spend time with people she feels comfortable, but my heart breaks for her as she is clearly upset that her supposed friend is becoming so unpleasant. I think I have several options - I will talk to the teacher and the welfare officer at school in confidence, and then possibly approach the mother (mainly because I'd feel terrible if it were the other way round and nobody said anything to me directly about it). I have the support of other mums but for all of them it is easier to distance themselves (as they have done) as their children are not spending every minute of the day with Annie (different ages, different activities, etc).
There is the option of changing activities - although I am only willing to try to change classes/times where possible, not the activities themselves because the truth of the matter is that my daughter does rhythmic gymnastics and music theory (she does have a one to one piano class each week) because she LIKES them, and wants to learn. Annie's mother, on the other hand, signed Annie up to the same activities because it means having to put up with her for less time at home. I know this to be true because she has said as much. So I feel that to change DD's activities in order to separate them would be terribly unfair to DD - in effect punishing her when she's not really the root of the problem. Obvously if there's no other option then I'll do it, but I feel very indignant about it
This has been going on for a long time now, and I can feel all this pent-up frustration and worry building up like a volcano...I think I need to calm down a great deal before I do anything at all!!Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 20
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Sounds a ghastly situation Alejandrita. Deepest sympathies. The bed-wetting might suggest your poor daughter is stressed about it too.
I was shocked at the oral sex element to the story - because about a year ago we had a terribly shocked TomKitten asking his dad (thank God it wasn't me!) about a similar thing as he'd seen pictures of it on the internet at a friend's house... at the time, I asked for advice on here and on the strength of the advice given I contacted the friend's mum and suggested she put parental controls on her computer. She was horrified herself and immediately did so. TomKitten was repulsed and mortified by the thought of putting body bits in mouths, and has certainly never mentioned it again, and he was 11 at the time. I hate to think how it would affect a six-year-old.
I wish you strength and luck. And a hug to your daughter.
Cat xLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 21
Posted by Wanda_Ofwandas (U2258758) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Alejandrita, try punching a pillow for five minutes before you do anything at all! It does help, honest. There's so much 'stuff' around this issue that it's not surprising your head is keeping you awake at nights - a bit of energy let-out might help.
I've no practical advice to offer, I'm afraid - but my thoughts are very much with you, and I applaud you for supporting your daughter in her own turmoil AND being level-headed and kind enough to want Annie's mother to seek a solution that will benefit them all.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 22
Posted by Swedey (U4339411) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Good morning Alejandrita, I'm not surprised you didn't get much sleep last night. A horrible situation to be in , exasperated by living in a small community (or that's what I assume you live in anyway).
Not that it matters, but is this other family British or Spanish?
I think speaking with the teacher and welfare officer has to be the first step, and absolutely tell them about the pornographic tale.
As for speaking with the mother, only you can decide that one. Difficult one.
I'll be thinking of you - as you might remember, I also have a six year old daughter (who, coincidentally, wet her bed last night for the first time in nearly a year).
Good luck.
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Message 23
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:26 GMT, in reply to catwomyn in message 20
I was shocked at the oral sex element to the story - because about a year ago we had a terribly shocked TomKitten asking his dad (thank God it wasn't me!) about a similar thing as he'd seen pictures of it on the internet at a friend's house...Â
Several years ago, with a different ISP, I once had a pop up with the very thing, just appear on my screen without provocation, about which I objected very forcefully to the ISP concerned. (Freeserve). I don't think it was their fault entirely, and it never happened again, though the odd gambling pop-up with no way of exiting from it without going in to it still arose from time to time.
Anyway, yes it would be a kindness to mention that you have spoken to the teacher and welfare officer for your own child's sake, and just wish her well. Maybe the mother concerned needs to get away from her extended family with the children, and start rebuilding their childhood. It does look as though at least one of the other adults are reinforcing the behaviour of the children.
At least Annie will be getting some benefit from the activities, as well as just the respite from her 'home'
I'm sorry if I was a bit simplistic earlier, but it is often best to start at a low level, however bad you suspect things may have become. The mother is obviously the key, but maybe the father also needs to be tackled. His children are at risk, and they need protection. Maybe O/H could be useful there (when he has cooled off that is).Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 24
Posted by Moonflower (U2267264) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Oh dear.
I think, as other posters have said, looking after your own child comes first, and supporting your friend a long way behind that. I'm horrified by the idea of a six year old being exposed to oral sex, that's surely a child protection issue and if I were you I would report it to the welfare officer and teacher. At the end of the day you don't know what other issues the school may be aware of in connection with this family. You could be providing a piece of a bigger jigsaw.
If it were me I would move my child to other classes and support her in making new friends, inviting them round to play and so on. Six is awfully young to deal with some of this, and being busy with new friends may well be the gentlest option for herLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 25
Posted by Jane Eyre (U5521427) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Dear Alejandrita,
What a nightmarish situation. I have a daughter of the same age and can imagine your distress. As other posters have said the fact that your daughter is bedwetting may well be a sign of stress so it is vital that you do something about the situation for her sake as well as your own. My first act would be to protect my own daughter's happiness and well being. I think that you should say something immediately to the class teacher about the effect that Annie has on your daughter (s/he has probably already noticed this). You don't have to be judgemental about in the first instance if you are worried about it becoming a matter for gossip. You could just say (diplomatically) that the girls are not getting on so well and and your daughter gets distracted and ask if they could be put in separate groups for table activities etc. You could also ask that a particular eye is kept on playground interactions.
Then I would deal with the after school activities. Annie's behaviour is preventing your daughter from getting the full benefit from these activities, so annoying as it is to switch I would change your daughter's times and days.
Thirdly, as other posters have said, I would actively encourage friendships with other children by arranging playdates etc. Hopefully with other strong friendships in place your daughter will be less liable to be influenced by Annie's behaviour.
What Annie said to your daughter is worrying and I do think that you should say something. The question is whether you should speak to the teacher, the Head, the welfare officer or the mother. Obviously if one of your own children was giving cause for concern you would rather a friend spoke to you, but I do wonder how much good it would do as Annie's mum is clearly not coping and in your shoes I would certainly seek advice from the school, perhaps the welfare officer, who may know more about the situation anyway.
If you have known Annie for a long time I wonder whether it is possible for you to gently say that she seems rather unhappy/angry lately and is there anything that she is worried about? Is it possible that in relating what she had seen to your daughter she was trying to determine whether her experience was usual.
Best wishes to you and your daughter, it is a really awful situation, I hope that things improve.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 26
Posted by jane_berry (U3025755) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Cat - I think Juniper would still be horrified at 13, he's horrified enough if I'm wearing a skimpy nightie and forget to put my dressing gown on and he gets a glimpse. EB is more pragmatic about the whole subject being older. But I agree there is something very wrong about a 6 year-old knowing about oral sex.
If the friend lived in London I would be seriously considering talking to my friend who is with the Met and who has recently left the murder squad and returned to child protection about her take on the situation. In fact I may do so as I don't imagine the situation in Spain regarding child welfare is much different and she may have some useful pointers - obviously carefully making it a hypothetical situation.
Alejandrita - is it possible to have your daughter moved to a different class? You may have seen that I did the same with Juniper at RE in recent months because he could no longer tolerate the obnoxious views of a classmate and that was only 1 hour a week. The whole school day is a long time for your daughter to have to suffer. I can see why you don't want to move well liked after school activities thoughLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 27
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
So sorry for your dilemma, Alejandrita, and very sympathetic re the shocking things this child has been talking to your DD about. I think your concern is more than justified.
I have nothing to add to the very sensible advice given my others up-thread, but I have a couple of little anecdotes that might help you to look beyond this.
When I was six, your daughter's age, my father died suddenly, and my mum upped sticks and brought us back to her home town to live with her mum, my Granny. I started at a new school and fell in with a girl called Brenda. Her mum worked in a bit textile mill just opposite our school, and Brenda used to go down there and wait in the lodge until her mum finished work. I was fascinated and overawed by Brenda, who knew everything, encouraged me to join in her six-year-old villainy (including thieving from our mothers' purses and other places), though there was not quite so much f-ing and sox in those days. My mum had exactly the same problems with this friendship as you, except that she didn't actually socialise with the family because she didn't socialise at all, being too busy as a very young widow trying to minimise the burden on my Gran at the same time. Eventually, Brenda and I were separated by changing schools after the 11+, and we never saw each other again. I stopped thieving and am now, according to my own daughter, so honest it's unreal. But if she's right, the Brenda period is the reason for it.
Second anecdote. My own sprogette aged about 15 took up with a very bad crowd in the village we now live in. They were into things like getting drunk, ganging up to wait for people outside the disco who had supposedly dissed them, exploiting silly little 15-year-olds for sex etc. My poor little sprogette, who was rather gullible and in love for the first time, behaved very badly, (including a community punishment for shoplifting) much to my despair. At one stage, I almost wrote her off and thought I would do my parental duty but no more rather than let myself get dragged down with her. She was always beautiful and still is, but today she is responsible, decent, honest, hardworking and a wonderful mother.
Conclusion - worry about influences on your child, but don't over-react. It is your family at this stage in her life that really counts. She will come through it, and with your help, she will recognise Annie for what she is. Except that she may be a bit scared of her at this stage, so any separation you can engineer is probably a good idea. E.G. my grandson changed football clubs because of a bully in the old one. He still plays footie but without the aggro. And started guitar lessons to keep him away from the bully in the local playground.
Good luck, and stay calm, sane and true to your own child-rearing principles.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 28
Posted by moose (U2611801) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
I work in a Primary school in the Uk on the pastoral side of things. If a parent came and told us this story it would be a child protection referral immediately.
I know the OP first concern is for her daughter , but the other child and her siblings could be at risk of serious harm.
Whether the child has seen a film , internet porn or the real thing , it is a serious concern.Make the call!
I do not know how it works in Spain but here another option is to call NSPCC.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 29
Posted by The equally pointless susierratic (U1485524) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
<>
Just wanted to say that, as a primary school teacher, if a child in my class spoke in this way to a teacher or another child, it would have to be treated as a child protection issue and I would have to report it to Social Services , after informing the parents/carers of course.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 30
Posted by jane_berry (U3025755) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Quite moose and susie - it is a child protection issue for the other child and her siblings and she is not old enough to seek help herself. Have been contemplating the matter and think that you really do have to raise the matter
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 31
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Just thought - that if she has seen images of sex acts, there may be child abuse going on. "Come and watch this with me... isn't it interesting? It's our little secret."
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 32
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:33 GMT, in reply to Dame Celia Molestrangler in message 31
Hello all,
Thank you so much for your input on this matter. I'm feeling a lot calmer now and able to address the situation in a level headed fashion.
There are quite clearly a lot of problems in that household. I feel close enough to the family to worry about it, yet not afraid to approach them. My daughter's well being and development is top priority and if I lose a friendship, then so be it. Talking about it with my own wise mum today brought it home for me - she said "if DD was being abused, you'd move heaven and earth to stop it. I think this is on a similar level and you need to take action."
I was half expecting to see the mother today but she wasn't around and as is becoming a common occurrance of late, Annie arrived 40 minutes late for rhythmic gymnastics and her father turned up late to pick her up, so I didn't even see him (not that I would approach him about this anyway).
Earlier today I came to the conclusion that I will talk to the mother as soon as I the opportunity arises. I plan to limit my side of the conversation to the oral sex issue - taking the line that I think she ought to know as I find it unappropriate for a six-year-old to be exposed to that sort of thing and that it can only be harmful for the child, for her (the mum) and for other children. The idea is then to leave the ball in her court, give her food for thought and let any further discussion take its course from there. My main motivation for doing this is because if it were me, I would like to think that someone would tell me their concerns. My intentions are truly kind - I will have tread carefully while at the same time being straight with her.
I will raise the issue with the class teacher on Monday (although I suspect she woudl be surprised) and arrange to see the welfare officer - independently of whether or not I have spoken to the mother by then.
And of course, my number one priority is to keep talking to my daughter, supporting her and guiding her on right and wrong, encouraging her to be her own person and choose who her friends are, etc. TBH honest I think we're making good progress in this regard, and I'm very proud of my daughter for her sensible reaction to the situation. I shed a little tear this morning when she said..."You know Mummy, Annie's problem is that she hasn't got the *balance* (at this point she did a wonderful little balace gesture with both hands!!) of friendship right" She means that there isn't give and take, or the general care for each other which she finds there is with her other friends. What wise words to hear from a six-year-old!
If I get nowhere with all this, then obviously we will have to sit down and re-address the issue of schools, activities, etc with a view to damage limitation. But I really hope it won't come to that.
I'll let you know who it goes.
Thank you.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 33
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Alejandrita - your daughter sounds a very mature and sweet girl. You seem to be doing everything right by her.
Good luck with dealing with the 'stuff'.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 34
Posted by jane_berry (U3025755) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Your mum is wise and thinking like the rest of us I would certainly move Heaven and Earth to protect either of mine if I had any suspicion of abuse and like DCM I am really worried in this little girl's case.
Sounds like you are taking the right course of action to try to protect Annie. And right to be proud of your DD just as I was of Juniper when he finally told me why he'd dropped that friendshipLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 35
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:45 GMT, in reply to Alejandrita in message 32
Obviously I meant "I'll let you know HOW it goes".
It is also worth mentioning that I also have a five-year-old son - whose eye's almost popped out of his head when his sister was relating this story. Even more cause for concern, nautrally.
Nevertheless I hope to get a better night's sleep tonight, now I've got some clarity...Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 36
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Friday, 30th January 2009
Alejandrita, it certainly sounds as if your daughter is a pretty together child and that you're doing all the right things with her. The situation with her chum sounds grim though - I understand that of course your first concern is for your own child but I hope you can find some way of setting some sort of official help/care in motion for this little girl, who is obviously being exposed to things she should have no knowledge of at this age. (Sorry, stating the bleeding obvious here...) I really just want to bookmark this thread so I can keep up with any developments and to wish you all the best in working through this. Aren't dogs sO much easier! (Sorry for this wee bit of cross-threading, but we tend to 'meet' each other in here chiefly on the dog thread and I therefore usually only here jolly tales of a delightful shiny black lab.)
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 37
Posted by Pin o Chocolat (U2372386) on Friday, 30th January 2009
Just wanting to express my concern for you and yours in this situation and to add my voice to those others who have mentioned the child protection issues here. I don't know what the situation is in Spain, but here, this would be referred to Child Protection agencies if it became known to the school. I would think that, after you have taken steps to protect your child, you need to pass this on to the school so that steps can be taken to protect Annie and her brothers. As has been mentioned, your information may just be on top over other stuff already known. So, please, talk to the school - they should have the means necessary to get things started.
You are clearly concerned about the mother, your friend; under the circumstances this is laudable: many would have turned their back on her. Might I suggest though that she may need someone to just be a friend - share a glass of wine and let her talk, rather than be the friend who is offering advice that might be seen as criticism. If the school is going to act (and they would be obliged to do so here) you might want to consider this.
I shall be thinking of you. This is a horrible situation for you all.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 38
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Friday, 30th January 2009
<<>>
---
aaagh!! 'hear'! I don't even have the excuse of using the Dutch spelling this time. I'm off to stand in the corner now.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 39
Posted by Westsussexbird or Birdy aka Westie (U6316532) on Friday, 30th January 2009
You've had half an hour in the corner ... you can come out now :0))
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 40
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Friday, 30th January 2009
<>
I would second this ShepherdS. I think, from a purely selfish view, if I were going to talk to the school, which may set child protection measures going (and I think you should), then I wouldn't bring the subject up with the mother yourself yet. You would be blowing your own 'in confidence' status: if you said to her 'I'm very worried about some of the things Annie is saying' and then the authorities say to her 'we have had reports that....' she will twig pretty quickly.
You may be more useful to her as a listening friend; I know it seems underhand but it might be the best for all of you. Good luck, whatever you decide.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 41
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Friday, 30th January 2009
Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:45 GMT, in reply to ermintrude in message 40
Once again, thanks for this useful input. As it turns out, I'm more likely to be talking to the school before the mother anyway, as I probably won't see her before Monday.
Campbell, yes, dogs are a lot easier most of the time...although if you pop over to the dog club you'll see I'm not so sure about that today!!!Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 42
Posted by Dunlurkin NL (U2675855) on Friday, 30th January 2009
What a nightmare scenario for all concerned.
Swedey asked "Not that it matters, but is this other family British or Spanish?"
On reflection, I think it does matter. Only because if the mother is British, it is possible that she will have have fewer friends to turn to than if she is a 'local'. The mention of a husband and two BiLs make me think she has at least some Spanish family. In an expat situation one does tend to have relationships with people that one might not in other cases, or at least different sorts of relationships.
Things may not be easy in the future between Alejandrita and the mother, even if she does not know who raised the situation with the authorities. (Just to make myself clear: it absolutely should be raised and as soon as possible.)
DunlurkinLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 43
Posted by Westsussexbird or Birdy aka Westie (U6316532) on Friday, 30th January 2009
I once spoke to a 'friend' about how on the way to school her daughter would walk inbetween my daughter and anyone my daughter was chatting with ... to the extent that my daughter would get elbowed into the road, or into the bushes! This kind of behaviour had gone on for quite a while.
I asked if she could perhaps have a little chat with her DD about sharing friends and that there was no wish to exclude her from conversations if only she would just make room for everyone to join in.
I was told in no uncertain terms that she didn't need anyone telling her how to bring up her daughter and although we live close by it has been clear, in all these intervening years, that I am not a friend. You can't put your finger on it, but I know and she knows.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 44
Posted by Jane Eyre (U5521427) on Friday, 30th January 2009
I wonder whether you should ask the school what action they will take? Not to be nosy, but to check that they are going to do something about it and also so that you are prepared if the parents subsequently approach you. I once had a very difficult phone call from another mother after I had had to speak to the school about her child's bullying of mine.
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 45
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Friday, 30th January 2009
Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:35 GMT, in reply to westie (westsussexbird) in message 43
I'm worried about "losing a friendship", as we have been pretty close in the past when the kids were younger (before her third child was born). But to be honest, there's been a distinct cooling off recently, in part because I find her eldest child so unbearable, but also because we are all pretty busy, no longer have as much time to spend afternoons in the park, etc, etc. And obviously, the friendship is likely to grind to a halt anyway if this kind of behaviour continues. And anyway, my priority is protecting my daughter (and by extension my son).
They are a Spanish family - although she is quite "alone" here. Her parents both died young and she has a much older sister who lives some distance away. However her husband's family are local and around all the time - and I know they do all they can to help her out. This may or may not be counterproductive.
I am aware that what I say to the mother may not be well received, which is why I am keen to go about it in a calm way, making it clear that I think it's important for her to know what her daughter is saying in the playground and that I am telling her because I'm concerned about her and her family, offering any support she may need. I am equally aware that what I have to say may simply be ignored. But I do feel the need to at least try to talk to her. She is aware that her daughter is a problem - she's been told often enough, apart from living with it every day - so this may just be a chance for her to start to take action instead of pretending it's not happening.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 46
Posted by Mrs Ryecroft (U6999804) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
How have things gone today Alejandrita?
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 47
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:21 GMT, in reply to Mrs Ryecroft in message 46
Evenin' all -
Well I had a great chat with DD's teacher - about lots of things, not just this particular issue - and she was very helpful and supportive. She confirmed that Annie is a headache for her in general and that my DD indeed is choosing to spend time with other friends during school hours. I told her about the oral sex issue and she was taken aback although not overly surprised - and I'll be having an appt with the welfare officer (who is already "observing" Annie anyway) later in the week. This lady will hopefully be able to take some action in this regard, and support and advise me in dealing with any repercussions on my children.
I then spoke to the mother over a coffee while the girls were in music class. She was very taken aback and very concerned. She was grateful that I had told her and although she didn't say what she plans to do, she certainly has got some food for thought. We'll see what happens. To be honest I feel very sorry for her. She's not a bad person, quite the contrary - she's just in way out of her depth (and she knows it) and she doesn't seem to have the strength, or the motivation, to find a way out. WIth a bit of luck she'll talk it over with her husband tonight and they may well take some action.
So - I feel a load less bogged down having taken some action. There may not be a completely satisfactory solution to this issue, but I'm sure with some professional guidance (on this, and the fact that my daughter seems a bit miserable, is wetting the bed and now, for the past three days, crapping her knickers - all of which was beginning to send me into utter panic) I'll be able to do a great deal.
Thanks for all your kind words and views. I'll keep you posted!Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 48
Posted by Dunlurkin NL (U2675855) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
That all sounds very positive Alejandrita (With the exception of the full knickers bit, but that is temporary. My advice would be to wrap them in a doggy-doo bag, chuck them away and replace them. She's a growing girl and would be needing new ones anyway.)
It is especially good that you and the mother have been able to have a good chat. The children had to come first, but it is good that the mother took the information as it was meant, and didn't start getting at you.
I hope all will be resolved for the best as soon as poss.
DunlurkinLink to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 49
Posted by Alejandrita (U2222432) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:43 GMT, in reply to Dunlurkin in message 48
Yes...As you've probably realised, my children being only 13 months apart meant that I did my fair share of poo cleaning and scraping all at once for my first 2.5 - 3 years of motherhood...then I decided that life is too short to scrape poo off pants.
My concern is less about the actual accidents and more about why she's trying to hide it from us.Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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Message 50
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
Just give her a big hug. She must be all confused, whilst trying to be grown-up at the same time. Poor lass. What a shame that she has had all this trouble to deal with.
Link to this forum: Bad influences in the playground...parenting advice needed!!
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