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Message 1.Â
Posted by The Woman Robin Norwood Wrote About (U13898642) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009
Dear Irina-M,
Your post in another thread ( forced me to de-lurk and post a reply.
I used to be in a place that was similar to yours. I was completely trapped in an unhappy relationship with a physically and psychologically abusive man. There was a time when I genuinely thought that there was no way out. But there was, once I managed to gather enough strength and courage to seek help.
Please do seek help, Irina-M. Please go speak to /someone/. It may be best to start with your GP (who can refer you to the right people), or with one of the organisations which some posters mentioned in the other thread. Are you in the UK?
I hope you read the replies to your post. People are genuinely concerned about you, and they are eager to help you in any way that they can.
You are /not/ all alone. There are other women who have been through what you are going through, and there are people who are trained to help people in your situation. Please let /someone/ help you. You only have this one life, and you should /not/ have to live it in such desperate unhappiness.
I assume this post will not appear for some time, because I have just registered on this board. But I will come back to check if you post anything again. -
Message 2
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009
Irina - Can I second the thought that you do not have to accept your situation - it is one which you you ought to be able to change.
I posted a response in the other thread to your post there but you may well not feel like wading through all the twists and turns of that thread to find it. I posted the suggestion that you might want to check out the Alcohol Concerns thread here at and also the Al Anon website which can be found at
Fee -
Message 3
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009
I agree with above posters. I've a couple of friends who managed to break away from miserable and/or abusive marriages, and are now getting on their feet again some 2 years later - and /so/ much the better and stronger for it, though the break itself was awful.
I can understand the helpless feeling of being trapped in a marriage if one hasn't got financial wherewithal to be independent, but both my friends made it despite a pretty hairy time during the actual separation. -
Message 4
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009
Just to clarify - I wasn't necessarily suggesting separation as the answer if that isn't something that Irina can contemplate - just that it is possible to find some happiness even in very difficult situations. I suggested Al Anon because from what she said drink may be at the bottom of her husband's unpleasantness - Al Anon doesn't necessarily suggest leaving but does suggest that happiness is possible even if living with an active drinker.
Fee -
Message 5
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009
In reply to Fee in message 4
Yeah - sorry. Separation is of course only one possible option amongst several to an unhappy situation. -
Message 6
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009
The Woman Who Loved Too Much. Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness- and to Fee and Bette too.
Perhaps I should clarify. My husband isn't one of these constantly physically abusive partners/fathers. He doesn't come hom every night and whack me or anything. It's all quite complicated, which in a way makes it harder to sort out and to see clearly what should be done. He is a very moody person, and very bad tempered- volatile. He shouts at all of us over nothing. But he can also be quite charming and solicitous- over solicitous really, in a slightly creepy, fake way, as it's so much of a contrast to his normal bullying, cross, impatient manner. He's a classic Jekyll and Hyde character really- but he never seems to feel guilty or bad about his aggressive behaviour. He is not one of these men who says sorry and that he'll never be like that again etc. He doesn't analyse or criticise himself, and so never sees himself or his behaviour as wanting in any way.
That very violent incident I mentioned in my first post, happened 9 years ago now. He has never been so violent since. But I lost all trust in him after that. I can't love or respect a partner who could almost kill me like that, in my own bed, and never apologise or really acknowledge what he did.
This may all sound very strange to most people. I'm sure many people think 'Well- why are you still with the man, then?' or 'He hasn't been so violent since, so why are you still complaining' etc.
But as I said, I lost faith in my husband that night, and nothing will restore it. There is also a latent violence there all the time, which is very unsettling and stressful. For example, last summer he got very cross with our 3 year old and dragged him in from the garden by his upper arms,leaving horrible dark marks on our son's arms. I have read that any violence which leaves a mark is seen as physical abuse by the authorities. Again, many of you will be thinking 'How could she stay with this brute, and fail to protect her children from him?' But he hasn't been like that with our child since, and at the time I said to him if he hurt our son like that again, I'd call the police.
I realise my husband isn't going to change now- he's middle aged and he's a moody, impatient man who has no self knowledge (and no sense of guilt or responsibility) at all regarding his problems. I know I need to get the strength to get a divorce and give my children a peaceful, consistent (albeit extremely financially impoverished )home life, instead of this hellish, volatile, unpredictable, unhappy existence we have now. It isn't always awful of course- sometimes my husband entertains our children (though very rarely) and he cooks for them a lot.But my teenaged daughter has realised he is an alcoholic and is frightened of it all now. She has seen him lying asleep on the living room floor , TV still on, bottle and glass on the table.
Oh- it's such a long tale of woe and folly and lack of will power on my part. As I said, the really frightening thing is that I have grown so used to the situation. 'Normality' seems odd to me now. When I am with my mum (not often as she lives far away and is very old) and I can sit and talk to her over dinner and she is interested in what I have to say,and never gets impatient with me or cuts me off, and doesn't get drunk and creepily over effusive, it's just amazing. And I think- gosh, maybe if I divorce my husband and start again, just maybe I can have new relationships with people, where things will feel at ease and happy like this. But the trouble is I have lost faith in myself so much, aswell. I seem to have lost the strength and confidence and will power I used to have all those years ago. I have also become fat and unhealthy, and I drink too much wine every evening, which dulls the pain but also weakens the resolve, or the little of it there is. -
Message 7
Posted by EurekaBlitzen (U11200477) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Irina-M - You deserve so much better, and are in a position to leave one who, really isnt worthy of you, or himself for that matter, and needs to consult issues by himself. And I understand, that you might not be brimming with confidence at the moment - you dont realise how special you are. But believe me, you honestly are, and you dont need him. Not like that. You really do deserve better. ((Hug))
-
Message 8
Posted by Oz (U6102444) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Oh Irina
I have just posted on the other fred as I hadn't seem this.
Can I suggest like Fee did to visit the Alcohol thread in TVH too. You don't have to contribute but it may help you to lurk and see what has been said.
You suggest that your OH is aggressive in a latent fashion but his actions towards you and your son merely suggests to me that his actions are unpredictable and only narrowly being capped. Once is once too often.
No-one has the right to terrorise individuals and that is what he is doing.
His drinking in itself might illicit some behavoiur that you will be unable to prevent.
May I also suggest that your own salvation is not in a glass of wine . It doesn't dull the pain it merely masks it temporarily. At the end of a bottle the problems are still there but your judgement isn't.
There are a lot of people on these boards that can and will help you.
As I said on the other post you need to start by helping yourself.
Take charge and your confidence will return.
Hug
Oz
Be kind to yourself and get well.
Please get some help soon. -
Message 9
Posted by metro-mouse (U3068238) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
oh Irina, this is not good.
< My husband isn't one of these constantly physically abusive partners/fathers. He doesn't come hom every night and whack me or anything.> No, there is more than one way to kill a cat.
You clearly have considerable strength for how else could you have endured this for so long. Leaving would be my solution for your sake and the childrens' sake, there are many worse things than poverty IME. There is a lot of practical advice and help available here..and BTW I hope that you have deleted your posting record, google search record etc. Call the police at once at the first sign of any threat, people like that man sense when their victims are gaining strength. mm -
Message 10
Posted by yorkshire puddin (U4522617) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Irina-M
Can you think of any good reason to carry on like this?
I feel for you, you need to reclaim your life and your happiness and that of your children.
Choose it, then do it. If you want it, you can, if you don't want it stay as you are.
I wish you love to make the right decision and the strenght to carry it through. -
Message 11
Posted by Fiona Friend (U12004237) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Fri, 03 Apr 2009 06:43 GMT, in reply to Irina-M
Irina, I haven't got much more to add to the other messages here, I just want to wish you all the best in which ever route you choose to take.
I have no experience of your situation myself, but I have watched my sister go through something similar and I believe that the emotional bullying that you are receiving is quite as bad as physical bullying and I worry that if you stay with this man then things will escalate.
I also want to add that your children, especially your son(s) will be learning from your OH's behaviour and may grow up believing that this is a normal way to treat their own families in the future.
Fiona -
Message 12
Posted by EurekaBlitzen (U11200477) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Yes. Never forget, that you always have us folk to talk to too.
-
Message 13
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Irina-M
Please do have a look at Al Anon - it could be the support you need. One of Al Anon's principles is that it "attracts" rather than "promotes" - so please do have a browse amongst the Alcohol Threads over the last few years (you can read back via the links at the beginning and end of the threads) - you might find doing that will help to give you strength through reading the accounts of others and how Al Anon, or its principles, has helped them. Actually, if you go back a couple of years you will find me posting to Basia about how I really didn't need Al Anon - remembering that has caused me to think about what changed my mind and I think I will post about that but on the Alcohol Thread which you will find at
Fee -
Message 14
Posted by Oz (U6102444) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Oh thanks Fee I had just popped in to do the very same.
Please have a look I-M.
Be brave
Actually forget that you are already very brave but don't seem to realise it.
OZ -
Message 15
Posted by Ali-cat (U8666386) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
I just wanted to add my own sincere concern to that already expressed on this thread. I have no solutions, only to join with others in saying that there are Agencies out there who have people who have experienced similar pain in their lives. Please take some action to save yourself from this dreadful and painful situation. You will get help from people who understand what you are going through, and with this support you will find the courage to take control of your life again.
With loving thoughts from me.
xx
Ali -
Message 16
Posted by Lindfield (U11070610) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Irina,
When i mentioned domestic violence agencies in the other thread, i wasn't suggesting i thought you were permenantly black and blue - in many cases the women involved live in fear of an attack that nver comes. But, as posters above have said, emotional violence is just as hard as the physical sort.
I sense from your post that you know what you need to do but don't yet feel ready to do it. I think most of us could empathise with that one. Knowing what is good for us is one thing - finding the strength to actually do it is quite another. Some of us have the luxury of being to sit in the mire for a while and perhaps you do too. But perhaps you don't - which brings me back to what i said on the other thread. Start lookng at a plan. Get advice. It might mean just having enough ID to hand to get financial assistance if you had to flee. It can't do any harm and if it empowers you, it could be a huge help.
And (again repeating another poster) remember you have support here - this week, next week, next month, next year. When you are ready. -
Message 17
Posted by The Woman Robin Norwood Wrote About (U13898642) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Irina, I am so glad that you posted. Perhaps coming to this board and sharing your worries can even be the beginning of a solution for you.
<<>>
This is all very familiar to me. Perhaps the best thing is to start small. When one says, "I have to divorce my husband, find a well-paying job, look after my children on my own, make new friends, or even meet a new man", that is such a huge undertaking that it is frightening. So one chooses to do nothing at all, and turn to drink to "dull the pain", as you say.
So, start small. Speak to your doctor about the drinking and the weight gain. Think of getting in touch with other people who are struggling with similar problems about their alcohol and food consumption. (I am sure you know that high levels of alcohol intake can lead to weight gain.) If you can do something about that, it will help you gain back a little of your self-confidence. You will feel more in control of your life, readier to tackle other issues.
How about exercise? Do you have time for that? Is there a gym or a dancing class or a walking club that you can join? That would help with your health problems and can also lead to new friendships.
I am also glad to read the supportive messages on this and the other thread. -
Message 18
Posted by Babs (U12089863) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Irina, I'd add my own support here, if that's ok...I was in a similar situation although we had no children. My OH had been a drinker throughout all the time I knew him (known him since my teens) - social drinking at first, but over the years slowly getting worse. When he was sober, he was the loveliest man you could hope to meet. When drunk, he was just the opposite. A true Jekyll and Hyde.
I experienced physical and verbal abuse, interspersed with periods of happiness. Enough happiness to make the low times bearable. As time went on, it got gradually worse. I tried to get help for him, which caused problems because he resented outside interference. Things went downhill rapidly after I spoke to my inlaws about it - they'd already gathered he had a problem, but he blamed me for speaking out.
He was made redundant three years ago and, with little else to do at home, he spent most of the time drinking. His behaviour escalated, he had spells of real violence, combined with self-loathing for what he was doing to me and to his family.
I was reluctant to leave because I dreaded what would happen to him; but it was getting to the point where life was becoming unbearable.
I was at my wits end when the problem was taken out of my hands...he died, suddenly at 45, from complications of heart disease and alcohol abuse.
I think I understand - I did the same thing, drank too much myself to deaden the pain of the life I was living. Going home from work wondering what I would be met with; work itself became burdensome because I was completely stressed out.
I had no choice in that my freedom, if you like, was handed to me. I miss my husband but I don't miss the abuse. I don't miss finding his stash of whisky all around the house. I miss his humour and his quiet wisdom, but I so value now the peace and tranquillity of my new life.
I did learn one valuable technique, partly from Al-Anon but also from other alcohol advisory agencies -that of detaching yourself mentally, if not physically, from the situation. In the last fortnight of his life, somehow, my attitude changed. I had been angry and bitter and resentful against him.
In those last days, and why I don't know, I started to find a sense of peace. I accepted that he had a problem that would probably never be solved. I accepted that I had done everything possible, and the rest was his choice.
I started focussing on my own life more, thinking about what I wanted from the future, accepting that I would probably be doing my own thing, because I simply couldn't rely on him being sober and able to do them with me. The night before he died, I went out with my friends for a meal; for the fourth night in a row I'd come home to find him comatose, so I thought I may as well go out with them, as stay in and look at him lying there.
I don't regret that. I had no idea it was going to be his last night on earth; and even if I had, what could I have done for him?
It's taken me a lot of heartache and soul searching (and counselling) to get to where I am now. I don't remember the physical violence, but the verbal abuse has left a mark and I'm still dealing with that.
I do however, feel that that sense of detachment has stood me in good stead since, to deal with the funeral, probate, practical stuff. That, and being able to talk to people in similar situations. I had a lot of support from my friends at church too.
I don't know why I've poured this lot out - sorry if I've hijacked the thread - but just wanted you to know you're not alone, there are plenty of us out here who know what it's like, and there is help if you want it.
I know for sure I wouldn't put up with it again - but I also understand full well anyone who would put up with it rather than leave. It ain't easy.
I wish you well, whatever path you take. God* bless you.
Bxx
(*Other deities/non-deities are available) -
Message 19
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
I couldn't agree more.
Fee -
Message 20
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Thanks again to the posters above who've offered support. It really does give me strength.
And Babs- thank you so much for sharing your story of similar troubles on here. I really am sorry you had to suffer in that way and that your partner died, but it is good to hear that you are unbeaten by your experiences of such a relationship, and that you have strong support and friends to lean on.
I would say one thing though, Babs. Your partner sounds quite a bit different to mine. My husband is a Jekyll and Hyde character with or without drink- it's just his nature. He is very moody and it isn't dependant on alcohol, although alcohol of course I'm sure exacerbates the problem. You said your partner was very sweet when sober, but unfortunately my husband can be nasty whether sober or drunk. I think that adds to why I don't love him at all any more: it's not a case of alcohol changing an otherwise nice man into a brute, not at all.
I think my husband may well have some sort of personality disorder,since he is an intelligent person but has no self awareness whatsoever. I once saw a programme about 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder', and it really fitted my husband very closely- the lack of self criticism, the arrogance,the impatience with other people, the lack of empathy and so on. But then, other people might just call him 'a nasty piece of work'. At one time, I might have tried to get help for him, but I don't love him enough to do that now. (I used to talk to him about 'anger management' etc., but he refused to even consider such things. When I went to 'Relate' years ago after that attack, he refused point blank to come with me; as far as he's concerned,there is no problem, well, not with him anyway.) Too much damage has been done and I just want to sort things out for me and my children.
The whole thing is quite ironic: I used to be the one who was outraged that any woman could put up with any sort of violence/bullying from a man. Once when I was a teenager my father was very violent to me, and I can remember lying in my brother's room (he was away at university), having barricaded myself in with a sofa so my dad couldn't get to me after the previous assault, saying to myself "If he comes in here, I'm jumping out the window- and when I grow up I am going to make damn sure I marry a sweet, gentle man, not a man with a temper.." I was absolutely determined about that.
I also remember a bit later when I was travelling round Europe aged 25, meeting a girl in the former Yugoslavia, and her boyfriend was jealous and aggressive and she told me she was scared of him.I sat with her for hours one night when he was off drinking and playing snooker with some locals he'd met and advised her that she shouldn't put up with such behaviour, that she had her life to live and should get away from this brutal man etc. etc.To me it was all so simple and clear cut back then. But now I am so much older and feel so much less certain and so much less confident about myself or anything else.. -
Message 21
Posted by Oz (U6102444) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
I mentioned this posting to a mate that I owled.
I also said in a jokey way that is this was my Oh I would have him sectioned.
Well girl I am bluddy certain I would now.
Come on I-M you are still that 25 year old it doesn't just evaporate into the ether you know.
Get onto that plan.
Get advice from some agencies and some friends.
Sure you have some.
Whatever you have them here.
Have you spoken with your GP.
May I humbly suggest you do. You want some documentation regarding your situation and his actions. There are good reasons for this both medically and legally.
Sort it please.
Remember you are the only thing between him and the kids and the scares he has left on them so far will be deep. Your are bad enough.
How old are the children BTW?
Here to help if I can
Oz -
Message 22
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Do you mean I should have my husband sectioned, Mrs O.? I don't think he fits the criteria. If only...
I have asked him to leave many times. I've said "get out of here!" when he's been aggressive with the children countless times. I also asked about a trial separation.But he just said that if I wanted to, I could leave, this was his house etc. etc. I'm so scared of losing my home I really tried hard to get.(That's another long story, but my parents enabled us to buy a first home by giving me the deposit and acting as guarantors etc. plus gave us another huge sum towards our present home) I just don't have the money to pay the mortgage if my husband isn't paying it. My teenaged daughter also tells me she is scared of losing our home if we divorce.
(My children are 14, 9 and 4.) -
Message 23
Posted by Lindfield (U11070610) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
You really do need some professional advice Irina.
I could be wrong but i thought you would get at least 50% of the house. Here in Oz it goes up depending on how many dependent children you have - a friend got 85% with three small children. Waiting until the children get older might affect that. Like i said before, getting advice doesn't mean you have to act on it - but knowing where you stand would help.
Speaking as the child of divorced parents - of course your 14 year old wants to hang on to whatever security she has. She would probably be furious with you for upsetting the status quo - but that doesn't make her right. Trust me, she'll get over it. One day she might even thank you. -
Message 24
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
I have been to the lawyers. I went very soon after that incident 9 years ago, But the advice I got wasn't at all reassuring. They said that as we still had a lot of mortgage to pay off, the likelihood was that the order would be to sell the house and split the proceeds. So any profit I made would be used for rent for a home for me and the children, and quickly dissipate to nothing.
I did see another solicitor 5 years ago and he again said I'd be unlikely to end up with 'the marital home'.
I have wondered if maybe I got poor advice- I did read recently of an order whereby the wife gets to stay in the 'marital home' till the youngest child is 18 and the mortgage company reduce the monthly payments etc. The thing is if we separate, my husband will have to pay rent for a flat etc. for himself, so he won't have much left over to support us. In time I hope I'll get a job and so on, but it will take time before I'm earning anything like enough to pay the rents etc. round where we live (and my children go to school). -
Message 25
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Irina
Only you can decide what it is right for you to do - I think it is sensible to use these boards in the same way as an Al Anon meeting - what happens there is that people share their own experiences - they talk about themselves rather than what they think others should do (although outside meetings they will offer advice and in most meetings there are likely to be people with experience of separation from partners/spouses). Listening helps others to see what is possible and then to work out gradually what to do for themselves.
The Jekyll and Hyde thing - excessive alcohol consumption will, I think, exacerbate any tendency to mood swings even when someone doesn't currently have any alcohol in the bloodstream - and you may not always know when there is and isn't alcohol in the bloodstream. My husband was never physically violent but I suffered years of pretty regular low level corrosive hostility and dismissive arrogance - I know now that for a lot of that time he had actually been drinking although it was not apparent in his physical demeanour (he was always a very functioning alcohol - there are lots of things which he did apparently in full control of his senses of which he has no subsequent memory).
Professional advice is a good thing so that at least you know where you stand - if you are in the UK then you should be able to find a solicitor who will give you some basic advice free.
Fee -
Message 26
Posted by SmoctusMole (U13882662) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Dear Irina,
I think you might be a little out of date on what your husband can or cannot do regarding your home. These days, as I understand, you cannot be forced to sell the home of your children as long as one of them is in full-time education. But I'm not a solicitor (plenty of nice people on these boards are, though). It's obviously complicated in your case as you'd like your husband to be the one to leave.
I do admire your bravery in opening up to all of us and for writing such good letters. Perhaps, like me, writing it all down will help to clarify things in your mind? I do hope so. The only bit of advice I would feel qualified to offer is that of other posters who have pointed out the diverse dangers to your children if you stay put. Please seriously consider that. And remember From Little Acorns - the first step in whichever direction you decide on is the hardest.
And also (looks like I can't count!) PLEASE FOLLOW ADVICE TO DELETE EVERYTHING FROM YOUR COMPUTER. Good luck to you. -
Message 27
Posted by sadie (U781345) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Hello again Irina
Oh- it's such a long tale of woe and folly and lack of will power on my part. As I said, the really frightening thing is that I have grown so used to the situationÂ
Believe me, from one who knows, it is not your lack of will power that is the problem here. Living miserably affects every part of your being and you will need strength and courage to make changes, but you CAN do it.
When I finally made my move I was supported, no, almost carried, to freedom by some of the women who are talking to you on here now. Please please listen to what they are saying.
I have never been so scared in my life as the day I took out a tenancy on this house, living without him seemed imcredible, but do you know what? Once the front door closed and I realised I was the only person who had a key and I could control what happened 100% I finally stopped holding my breath, and over the next few months really started living again.
Almost two years on from that I have a new relationship with a man who is kind and lovely and does everything he can to make my life comfortable. It is taking some getting used to I can tell you!
Dear Irina, you are not alone, you have ML's finest right next to you and we are all rooting for you. I would be lying if I told you it was easy, it is not, but neither is choosing to live miserably for ever.
with love
Sx -
Message 28
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:48 GMT, in reply to Irina-M in message 6
Irina, have a look at this website,
particularly this section, -
Message 29
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:49 GMT, in reply to carrick-bend in message 28
Apologies, pressed the wrong button and didn't post the link.
3F -
Message 30
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Hi again, Irina.
There are many people rooting for you here. I can imagine how scary this is for you - esp. as your youngest child is only 4. I think it is /so/ hard for mothers of small children to break away from an abusive relationship, as they do not just have themselves to consider (stating the bleeping obvious, I suppose!).
I, too, think that the legal advice you had previously just might be out-of-date. Laws do change, and you have been married that much longer now, so might have more rights.
My only advice I can think of at the moment is to gather as much information as you can about the family finances (income, expenditure, legal stuff such as mortgage agreement). In the cases of my friends that I mentioned above, the husbands controlled all the finance and they didn't even know what he was earning - they were just given a housekeeping allowance. I discussed with them a lot about this issue, and pleased to say that they are now infinitely more savvy and are doing very well at managing their own finances now they are divorced (though, to be truthful, one husband /did/ change his behaviour too along the road to separation).
All the best. If nothing else, ML makes a good sounding board! -
Message 31
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
I agree with you, Bette. I cannot imagine living in a household where I didn't know how much money was coming in and going out, but that's my 'inner accountant'. I do know lots of women who really don't know, and haven't really taken an interest in family finance - all well and good if things are OK, but not so good if it is being used to control someone.
Irina - someone further up made a suggestion that you move your ID details, passport, driving licence etc out of the marital home to somewhere 'safe'. It will be the first step when you need to open your own bank account.
I hope you can confide in a RL friend, or speak to someone at a local Women's Refuge for more advice on how to achieve what you want, in appropriate stages. I wish you every success in your life - because you and your children deserve it. -
Message 32
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:47 GMT, in reply to Lili Bolero (half a Bee) in message 31
Just to know that you're not alone can help - I thoroughly second Lili's comments. -
Message 33
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
I cannot imagine living in a household where I didn't know how much money was coming in and going out I wonder if it's a generational thing? My father dealt with all the bills, and I don't know how much my parents talked about money. Certainly the first time I learnt how much he earned was when he died and I was sorting out things like his P45. He did talk about money, as I learnt from him about talking to the bank and I could always ask him tax questions and so on. I don't think it was a question of control with him - he just grew up in a generation where women weren't allowed bank loans and all the rest unless a man could guarantee it for them.
Anyway, I hope you find all the information you need to make the decisions that are best for you. -
Message 34
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Thank you again all you sweet people for all your support and advice. And Sades, your story really is so encouraging and well done for sorting your life out, for deciding to 'live again'! Sounds like you made a wise choice with your latest partner- or did luck play a part?
Can I just say, I am the one who deals with financial matters in my family, and always have been. My husband can't be bothered with all that boring stuff (as he sees it). But nevertheless he is the one who is the earner, and his salary (with help from my parents) pays the mortgage. I know it will help on divorce, that my parents enabled us to buy our houses by giving us so much money for our deposit and so on (in effect they gave me my inheritance early) and also that they continue to give us a sum every month toward sour large mortgage. But the advice I was given each time I sought legal help, was that sale of the marital home would be ordered and proceeds divided.
Obviously if my husband was coming home and being physically violent most of the time, money would be immaterial and I'd be down at the refuge with my children, or phoning social services and the police. I've tried to convey that it is more complex than that, but I understand if other posters haven't grasped my situation as it's such a long, complicated story and as I said it is subtle and not clear cut in some ways.
If I had no children I'd have been gone long ago and if I had independednt means and money for a house I'd also have left long ago. I suppose I've swallowed any pride I had and stayed in this dysfunctional situation because I felt I hadn't a better option. My children are quite widely spaced in age, and I have been breastfeeding and pushing prams for a long time now. Because of what happened with my husband, I have lost confidence in myself and my capabilities and even my sanity sometimes. I became so depressed and anxious I developed a neurological disorder which further reduced my self esteem and confidence. (Or a pre existing neurological problem manifested itself properly and was dagnosed for the first time.)
Oh, yet again I feel it is such a long catalogue of 'unfortunate incidents' and so on, I feel I'm rambling. -
Message 35
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
In reply to Irina-M in message 34
Last post tonight, then I won't be around for most of tomorrow.
Glad to hear that you are on top of the financial side (thought after I posted that that might be the case).
I'm surprised if the law wouldn't give you your fair dues - but each country is different.
I can really understand (I think) about the erosion of self-esteem. I can only suggest trying to build that up brick-by-brick (and coming and talking about it is a start). Have you got any close friends who you can confide in, or could help at all if you wanted to get out? -
Message 36
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
I think the law see it as 'fair dues'- ordering sale of the home and dividing the profits according to our contributions. If we owned the house outright it would be quite different. I'm sure then the children and I would get to stay here. But I think it's a question of pragmatism: there is a mortgage to pay (lots of it) and I wouldn't have the means to pay it were I allowed to stay here with the children. My husband doesn't earn enough that he could support himself and pay our mortgage here. But I am holding out some hope for this order I read about, whereby the wife (or husband) gets to stay in the marital home till the youngest is 18/leaves home and pays a very reduced mortage payment each month. That might be applicable.
But recently it's got so miserable I just keep fantasising about a nice little terraced house, however tiny, with me and the children there, all cosy and at peace, and unlocking the door knowing our home is our haven, the one place we feel cherished and understood and listened to, where no one's going to shout at us for no reason, or ignore us when we speak and turn the radio up or lose their temper because my 4 year old pronounces 'School' 'skul' (because he's picked it up from me)and order my 14 year old daughter to get out of his sight beacuse she keeps repeating 'skul' and giggling a bit annoyingly...
I've even opened my mind to the idea of having to move far away from here altogether to somewhere where property is much cheaper and so on. But my 2 older children are distraught if I ever suggest moving them from their schools ('skuls'?)and I really want to stay here too.
I will seek fresh legal advice and try to get my courage up. For ages I've been thinking- I'll lose weight and get fit and this and that and then I'll get a divorce, because I'll be confident and less depressed. But I'm beginning to wonder if the only way I'm evergoing to get my old slim, confident self back is AFTER I've divorced, after I am free of my husband and this constant worry and preoccupation with each day and his moods and getting through it. -
Message 37
Posted by atishy, virgo intacta and unstuffed post changeover (U3927091) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
Irana, having read your posts on your very unhappy situation I hope you'll forgive me if I make too many assumptions and leaps.
You've come to these boards because you need an outlet and support, both you'll gladly get. In doing so you've reached the stage in your mind where, in effect, your marriage is ended.
You can choose to remain, and you already know what to expect from that. That's fine if you do, sometimes even the dread familiar may seem more welcome than the awful unknown, though it clearly makes you deeply unhappy, and, from what you've described, your children too are becoming aware of the abnormal situation.
You can choose to leave.
What would concern me is the circumstances under which your leaving might take place. Given what you've described in your husbands behaviour the most dangerous situation for you all would be the catalyst of violence.
I understand why the impossibility of leaving might seem overwhelming, as many posters will tell you, it is do-able and it is a better life afterwards.
I hope you can. -
Message 38
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
Atishy. You have got the measure of the situation rather well in fact. What you say is very much what runs through my own mind. I have stayed so long after the 'big event' that I have lost my fire and enthusiasm for escape and change. But you are right- it is silly to imagine there won't be another occasion like last summer when my husband left those awful marks on my little one's upper arms.
I am worried about my husband's reaction if I were to start divorce proceedings. He wouldn't take it with good grace or good humour. He might well become violent or threatening. The lawyer I saw 9 years ago after my husband almost strangled me, said perhaps we could get an injunction or restraining order thing if I started proceedings so that my husband would have to move out at once and stay away from us in case of violence. But I don't know now if that would be possible all these years on.
I did call the police that night 9 years ago and they came round. But that was before the compulsory arrest rule in such situations,(they asked me if I wanted to press charges and I said no as I just wanted to keep things 'normal' for the children and so on) . I called the police once about 2 or 3 years ago during a much milder violent incident and they said no record would have been kept of my call or that incident.
My husband is quite unusually stubborn. In books and films, when the wife begs the husband to leave and asks for a separation, he always seems to hang his head and go, tail between his legs or even raging.But I have asked my husband to leave many, many times and even suggested a trial separation, but he just brushes that aside and ignores me. He says that if I want to, I can leave but this is his house and he's not going anywhere. My feelings on it seem immaterial to him. We have gone far beyond discussing anything like this together now. He spends his evenings in the living room while I remain in the kitchen dining room. He sleeps in the living room. After baby 3 he ended up there and I won't let him back into my bed after what happened to me in it 9 years ago, and he is always pi**ed and comatose and snoring horribly. Even when we were still sharing our bedroom, he invariably fell asleep on the sofa and I'd have to try to wake him and drag him upstairs, even when I was pregnant. Those days are thankfully over. -
Message 39
Posted by Fiona Friend (U12004237) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
Sun, 05 Apr 2009 07:14 GMT, in reply to Irina-M in message 38
Irina, do your parents know what is going on? Some things in your posts have really struck a chord with me as being very similar to my sister's situation. Your husband is not going to move out of the house while your parents are effectively paying him to remain there. I realise that they are also enabling you to live there as well, but in absolute misery it seems. -
Message 40
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
irina, just to add a point to Fiona's. Could your husband continue to pay the mortgage without the contribution from your parents?
-
Message 41
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
Irina
I really hope that you will feel like investigating Al Anon (or some other similar real life agency or support group) - this board is a very good way for sorting out what your feelings are - but it cannot provide the practical real life in person support that you would probably find there, whether you decide to stay or go. I hope that you've looked to see whether there are any convenient meetings close to you (I know that with a four year old it may be difficult to get to them).
Fee -
Message 42
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
Irina your situation sounds just like that of my daughter. She has at last found the strength to divorce him on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour. 3 years ago she found proof of his affair and threw him out but thought she'd never manage financially with 3 young children, so in the end took him back.
Big Mistake.
His behaviour has gone from bad to worse and she can take no more.
He refuses to see that he has done anything wrong, even to the point of alienating HIS OWN solicitor, the judge and the mediator.
Dar Dau ( from my own outpouring on the MB when someone else had the same initials and things were getting confused I now use Dar Dau for darling daughter) has managed to get a job which allows her 16 hours per week which is the time allowing optimum claims on social security, housing benefit etc. She's having to sell the house because of his mountainous debts and can't get a mortgage to buy again.
She had a super job and her own flat, we always said he married her for our money.
Things will be tough for them but the peace she is looking foward to is worth all to her.
Only you can decide how you handle this, but there IS help available you just need confidence to do whatever you decide. -
Message 43
Posted by Westsussexbird or Birdy aka Westie (U6316532) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
Just to say how sorry I am to read of all this unhappiness and I hope all of you with such problems find a way forward. To dig your way out of an impossible situation takes great strength of character, and I admire you all so much.
Westie :0) -
Message 44
Posted by U13882105 (U13882105) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
I wish your daughter well, Librarian, and it is very encouraging to hear of one 'who got away'. You sound like a great, supportive mum. I love my mum a lot, but have been very disappointed in her reactions to my problems with my husband. She always tries to put his side of things "Oh- he's probably just tired.".."Oh- there are a lot of men like that unfortunately." and the classic "Perhaps you bring out the worst in him" after he almost strangled me in my own bed, and so on.
One of the things I'm most resentful about, to do with my husband, is the way he's damaged my relationships with other people, particularly my loved ones. I had never had a cross word with any friends or my family (as an adult) until after meeting my husband at the age of 28. I now almost never see my brothers, have lost touch with one of my two best friends from childhood, and almost never see the other one and have lost faith in my own mum to some extent, because she has been so unhelpful to do with what my husband has doen and so on.
It makes me sad beyond belief and a bit angry when I think that none of that would have happened had I never met this man. -
Message 45
Posted by Oz (U6102444) on Monday, 6th April 2009
He is not tired but pissed and aggressive.
There are some men like that but not as many as your mum thinks. Anyway behaviour like that is NOT normal.
And you do not bring out the worst in him he does that quite well without anyone's help.
Who is the daughter in all this. I think you mother is a victim of the past. She would feel embarrassed to have a divorced daughter. That ,my dear, is her problem. You have plenty more pressing issues of your own.
If he has succeeded in alienating your friends and family may I humbly suggest that he has got a RESULT!
You are now alone and isolated from those that might help you and he has you just where he can control you. This has been no accident my dear.
Put your pride away and contact you family and friends. They know what he is like otherwise why do they shun you and the family.
reestablish yourself and burger him.
Pick up the phone to you brothers and talk to them like you have us.
Honestly and forthrightness is needed here.
You may be amazed by theirs and other responses,
you might find that you are no longer alone for a start.
Courage.
Do it soonest
Oz -
Message 46
Posted by Westsussexbird or Birdy aka Westie (U6316532) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Oz, you have saved me writing an almost identical message to Irina.
-
Message 47
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:33 GMT, in reply to Irina-M in message 44
One of the things I'm most resentful about, to do with my husband, is the way he's damaged my relationships with other people, particularly my loved ones. I had never had a cross word with any friends or my family (as an adult) until after meeting my husband at the age of 28. I now almost never see my brothers, have lost touch with one of my two best friends from childhood, and almost never see the other one and have lost faith in my own mum to some extent, because she has been so unhelpful to do with what my husband has doen and so on.Â
Look down (in Signs of domestic violence) to "isolation" - it's a classic strategy.
That's one of the reasons why contacting a Domestic violence/abuse helpline might help - it can be useful and liberating from guilt to find out that he's following a pattern, and, unlike what he's probably told you over the years, It's Not Your Fault. -
Message 48
Posted by Oz (U6102444) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Spot on CB
Cheers Westie
Irina a lot of people here giving you the tools to change your life -
Message 49
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Irina - I've been reading your posts on this and Dame C's thread and wanted to wish you sympathy and the strength to make the changes in your life you know you need to.
My first husband was abusive. Not always physically, but usually in a more psychological way. I well remember the feeling of dread on hearing his key in the door and the worry about what mood he was going to be in, or what delights the evening would promise. And of course according to him it was all my fault - if only I would do x,y or z, or alternatively *not* do, x, y or z, then things would be fine. Of course it was like being in a game where you stood no chance of winning - the rules were arbitrary, changed frequently, and always worked against me. My ex did many of the things described in the links cb has posted - gradually isolating me from family & friends, undermining my confidence, increasing my dependence on him etc etc.
But I got out. And although the leaving process wasn't easy, once I embarked on it I grew in confidence and now I would *never* fall into that trap again. I now have a successful career and a wonderful second husband who makes me understand what was missing from my first marriage. There is always life beyond.
Please, even if you think you're useless (and believe me you're not), you need to think of your children. By remaining in this situation their lives are being affected, as is yours. Life can be better than this, much better, and you really do only get one shot at it. Do you want to teach your daughter that it's acceptable to put up with treatment like this? Or your sons that they can behave like this to women?
There are agencies and people out there who can help. I wish you all the very best. You deserve so much more than this, you know, so be kind to yourself and take the step. Find out your position and go from there. It may seem daunting, but taking back control of your life is better than you can ever imagine. -
Message 50
Posted by overandout (U10539354) on Monday, 6th April 2009
I've just been re reading the womansaid link and can say that my nearly-ex-son-in-law certainly uses those tactics.
point 1 yes: 2 yes: 3 yes: 4 yes: 5 yes: 6 yes: 7 yes: 8 ??: 9 no: 10 absolutely.
I think you can tell - I hate him,
trouble is he can come over as So Nice that a lot of people wouldn't believe it. except now most of their friends know what he is like as Dar Dau puts her mobile phone on loudspeaker so everyone nearby can hear him sounding off.
It is NOT your fault.
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