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Turning a life upside down
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Thanks for all the fish (U10654037) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I'm a bit ahead of myself here, but I would be grateful for any advice.
Long story short, I'm going to be meeting a friend tonight and I'm pretty sure that in the course of this conversation he's going to tell me he's gay.
That of itself doesn't bother me, apart from the fact that it's taken him 50 years to find the courage to come out. I've suspected for a while, following a drunken conversation a few years back that made a lot of things fall into place.
Problem is, he's married, with grown up children, and is a respected member of the local community with seats on various committees. You get the idea.
He is also fundamentally very unhappy, both with his life as it is (which is outwardly pretty idyllic) and I suspect at the knowledge of the fallout that would result from his coming out to friends and family.
Basically, I haven't a clue what to do. I want him to be happy, he only has one life, etc etc. I want to tell him that he should come out, that people will come round, and if they don't they weren't really friends anyway. His family will come to accept it because they love him and want him to be happy, and his wife, well, maybe she suspects anyway, and...
And then I think I don't have the right to encourage him to (melodrama alert) ruin other people's lives just because of what he'd like to do in bed.
So what do I do? How do I help him come to a decision off his own bat without either being unhelpful along 'it's up to you' lines or encouraging him into a course of action he later regrets?
Sorry, have probably not phrased any of this very well. Long night, little sleep. Thanks for any thoughts. -
Message 2
Posted by Ali-cat (U8666386) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Hi burnt-apple
Just in passing I saw your post, and can relate to your problem having been in a similar position myself many years ago.
Just listen to your friend, that's all you can really do. Be the true friend that you are, let your friend talk to you about it, and don't offer advice if you can possibly avoid it. Difficult, and also exhausting. Best to just do the listening thing, and the 'being there' thing.
Good luck for tonight.
xx
Ali -
Message 3
Posted by Tadpole (U2267185) on Friday, 8th May 2009
burnt apple - do you have to 'do' anything? Other than listen, I mean. I don't think you can, or should, advise him on what he does next - just let him talk and be a sounding board. Good luck.
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Message 4
Posted by Dunlurkin NL (U2675855) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Many years ago I knew a man with a very successful male career and a seemingly happy marriage with children. He moved on from where I worked and I lost touch. Next time I saw him 'he' was a female panellist on 'Question Time'. She went on to have a an extremely successful second career. I gather from mutual friends that she also managed to emerge with a relatively happy new home life too.
I hope your friend can do the same.
Dunlurkin -
Message 5
Posted by Dunlurkin NL (U2675855) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I've just realised that my posting may come across the wrong way. I do know the difference between being gay and transsexual. I was referring to the major, life-changing decision for one person and the repercussions it can have for others.
Dunlurkin -
Message 6
Posted by Thanks for all the fish (U10654037) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Thanks both. For some reason I'm quite good at the shoulder to cry on / listening ear bit with acquaintances but when close friends or family tell me their problems I find it very hard to keep schtuum and tend to weigh in with advice. I've known him for 20 years or thereabouts and will find it very difficult not to even say 'you deserve to be happy. Do what makes you happy.' This is especially the case as he is one for putting other people's needs before his own and sets much, sometimes too much, store by doing the right thing. I doubt if he would find the courage to come out without a bit of encouragement.
Anyway, will do my best to keep my thoughts to myself! -
Message 7
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Friday, 8th May 2009
burnt-apple, why don't you gently suggest he calls a helpline for people in such situations who he could talk things over with, with a view to practical issues?
Listening ears from friends are great, of course, and weighing in with advice isn't always a great idea. But a helpline might be able to help with practical stuff re family, children etc...
Cat x -
Message 8
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Fri, 08 May 2009 08:32 GMT, in reply to burnt_apple in message 1
burnt-apple some random thoughts which may or may not be useful. I suppose they come from the POV of someone most of whose close male friends are gay. Also, at university, a flatmate of mine came out to me, and I didn't deal with it tactfully: I had no problem, but my respose was that one of our other flatmates would.
So I suppose I see 'gay' as pretty normal really, and don't see it as a wrecking of a life.
Would it be possible to separate out the gay from the possibility of him leaving his wife etc? Then it's an issue of a long marriage breaking down, rather than all the other suff.
BUT I suppose my POV is from long friendships (since I was a teenager really) with men who have always known about their sexual preferences and it's no bog deal, except for the social discrimination they meet (and still do). To me it's natural, and not a "world upside down" thig.
But the possible break up of a long marriage is a world upside dwn thing. To me, if I were in your situation, that would be the more difficult issue, particularly if I were friends with the wife too.
Good luck -- just listen maybe as others have suggested. -
Message 9
Posted by laReine-Astrid (U10636638) on Friday, 8th May 2009
burnt apple, just to say that the very fact that you are posting on here means to say you're trying to decide "what you should say to him".
Maybe he'll really surprise you and not come out with what you're expecting at all.
What I'm really trying to say is, don't try to prepare your responses, think instead of being as open as you possibly can to what he has to say. You're a friend, not a counsellor. -
Message 10
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Friday, 8th May 2009
will find it very difficult not to even say 'you deserve to be happy. Do what makes you happy.'Â
he is one for putting other people's needs before his own and sets much, sometimes too much, store by doing the right thing.Â
I wonder if these two things are not necessarily in contradiction? For some people (not all) 'doing the right thing' and taking into consideration the feelings of those they love (but may not necessarily have sexual feelings for) *is* one of the things that make them happy. They may be uncertain as to what to do because staying or leaving is going to make them unhappy one way or the other. Only they can know where the balance lies.
The other point that I wanted to make is that 'coming out' after years of family living does not just cause the usual devastation of the break-up of a long term relationship that Red mentioned, but can have other profound effects on the partner. This is because it shakes a fundamental part of their own identity to discover that they have been in a heterosexual relationship with someone who is not a heterosexual - that an extremely important person in their life is not what they seemed. (This is totally independent of any value judgement about being gay or heterosexual.) -
Message 11
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Although F(A)B I think it's importantto say that just as I have known several men who have always known they're gay, I also have a couple of close frienss I've known for over 30 years who have moved between same & opposite sex relationships. And I don't mean just playing the field; I mean that one, in particular was in a long-term committed same-sex marriage (although that word wasn't used rthen -- back in the 80s) but is now married in an opposite-sex relationship with children. And for my other friend, the same but in reverse.
But I take your point re the partner of a person whose sexual orientation is changing or has changed or was repressed previously. -
Message 12
Posted by laReine-Astrid (U10636638) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I have a very close friend who, years ago, was in a same-sex relationship for a while, but who was convinced that he wasn't homosexual, he was just terrified of women.
Then he was in a heterosexual relationship for a long time and had two children with the woman he lived with. She left him, and he met another man and is in a very happy, but not "official", relationship with this man. He realised that, while he had been in his heterosexual relationship, this side of him had been repressed. But he doesn't want to complicate things for his children, so his new relationship is kept on an informal basis.
My friend didn't make any kind of special date with me to tell me all about this, but he recounted the history of meeting his new friend over lunch. We had a good laugh about things and celebrated the fact that he was happy. And now he knows he's bisexual. Ö÷²¥´óÐã/hetero, it's not always that simple. -
Message 13
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I think that's sort of my point as well, LaReine. That for some people (prolly more than we think!) sexuality is not necessarily fixed for all time. People can and do change.
So that burnt_apple's friend may have been /genuinely/ heterosexual while with his wife. But has now changed. It could be put i such a way that it is not the undermining of a long partnership with that awful phrase "Well, I never really loved you anyway" (the rewriting of history & experience which can sometimes go with a relationship breakdown) but that oin the future this man's erotic life will be focussed differently.
Although I think at first it would be hard for anyone to accept that. Just that I'm not so sure that it's necessarily the case that the hetero/homo thing would make it worse for the heter partner in these sorts of situations. -
Message 14
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I posted as a result of knowing a woman who left her husband for another woman. She had always known that she was gay, but had not told her husband. It was quite difficult for her husband to come to terms with, but fortunately they got on well together and she did all she could to help.
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Message 15
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Ah yes, that is quite different & I imagine the husband would have felt the whole relationship undermined.
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Message 16
Posted by merrylatestarter (U10475559) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I cant really say much, having only ever known one gay man, who I get on very well with. I would say that if you have guessed correctly, some of his other friends might also have done the same, and it wouldnt be quite so hard for him to come out. It would obviously be devastating for his family. I dont know,its very hard. Good Luck anyway.
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Message 17
Posted by strawberrysunrise (U10452397) on Friday, 8th May 2009
you only get one life ,it's total amazing to be here,at some point if you have the chance you should be allowed to be yourself,if any of the people that might be hurt by a grown up been honest with themselves really love that person they should be happy that person is going to try to be at one with themselves,it is horrible living a life as a lie,why shouldn't a person decide that they have a different sexual orientation,we are only here for the tiniest moment in time,when else will this person get the chance to live their life as a person.
I would respond to your friend with a hug and a "how wonderful,and how can I support you"?
if other people don't like it,then that is something they need to look at,no one has the right to expect someone else to live their life in a way that makes them unhappy.
If my friends and family are happy and healthy then I am pleased for them,it's when when either of those are missing that it upsets me,then I worry and fret. -
Message 18
Posted by laReine-Astrid (U10636638) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Strawberry
I'm basically 100% behind your lovely post, but would just like to say that, in my friend's case, he didn't "decide" anything. He floundered from one relationship to the next, changing his mind about whether he was homosexual or heterosexual, until he finallly realised he truly is bisexual. This happened because, after his wife left him, the next person he fell in love with was a man. -
Message 19
Posted by Judith Hearne (U7775397) on Friday, 8th May 2009
B.A, a friend of mine, married for 25 years, was in exactly this situation. His marriage was a happy one, but from time to time he would go out and, er, pick up young men in various of the more salubrious of the town hotspots. (I don't find those facts cotradictory, btw) Finally, he decided it was time to tell his wife..
She was mildly surprised to hear him say it, but on some level had long suspected. Then it was on to the two teenage children. Daughter all right.. "You're still my dad". On to son, macho-type lad, fully expected to throw a fit. Friend takes deep breath.. But is interrupted:
"Dad, I know what you're going to say. You're going to tell me you're gay."
Conversation moves swiftly on to other more important things, like football.
My friend now lives with his male partner, and is on very affectionate terms with ex wife and children.
As has been said, B.A, don't pre-empt what your friend is going to say. But if it does turn out to be as you expect, there are a million and one possible outcomes. All you can do is listen, and be there for him later. -
Message 20
Posted by Sister Primrose of the Red Tinsel Flag (U5405579) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I had a friend whose fiancee left her for another man. It completely destroyed her, took her years to rebuild her self esteem and a long time for it not to colour he relationships with other men.
This comment is not by way of a negative judgement on the fiance for the decision he took; the reasons he had not been accepting of who he was were painful for him and he acted as kindly as he could when he knew what he had to do.
However, it damaged her and her sexual identity in a way that being left for another woman would not have done - "You're really attracted to men but picked me - what is it about me that is unwomanly enough for you to find attractive?"
I remember hearing a prog about the radicalising effect of the miner's strike on the communities it affected - more than one marriage ended with newly empowered women feeling able to declare and act upon their true identity. The interviewed ex husbands, even where there was no hostility, were also left very unsure of their identity and less confident of their attractiveness.
Back to the original question, I think I share the view that your role is to listen and if you must give advice, make it the advice that he talk to a helpline staffed by folk who've been there and got the t shirt (so to speak)
PP -
Message 21
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Every situation will be different. I knew someone whose husband finally told her he was gay after 20+ years of marriage. She had some idea but until that point had been unsure. She gets on better with his partner than her ex.
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Message 22
Posted by virtual_jan (U13662056) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Just echoing what several people have already said on this thread, namely, that for many people sexuality is not "fixed".
We sometimes put enormous pressure on ourselves and others to label our sexuality. There are many people who might be happier just "being" whatever they happen to feel at this particular point in their lives.
Your friend might want to come dancing right out of the closet and make up for lost time, but then again he might not feel comfortable being categorised.
And beware that dreaded question "when did you first realise you were gay?" Probably a harder question for some people to answer than understanding "a short history of time!" -
Message 23
Posted by WellyBoot (U2280364) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Fri, 08 May 2009 18:14 GMT, in reply to Judith Hearne in message 19
Judith, my friend experienced the same thing. His wife, whom he had married in the 60's, was not in the least surprised and they remain good friends to this day. The reaction from his son and daughter, who were young adults at the time, was exactly as you describe. I guess it depends abit on how well they know each other & how long they've been together, maybe.
In reply to the OP, it could be he wants to sound it out on you, it may be he hasn't told anyone yet and just wants to say it out loud to someone he trusts. To hear what it sounds like in words. If you know what I mean.
WB -
Message 24
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I agree with those who say listen, and do no more than advise he contacts a help line or the like.
It might work out fine, it might end up a total nightmare. There's no way of knowing, without knowing the people and relationships involved, and even then, you can't know for sure.
In my fairly limited experience, I'd say that people's sexuality is usually more fluid than society generally allows for in its expectations, and also that women find this concept easier to deal with than men. But that may just be a reflection of some of the people I've known. There aren't any hard and fast rules when it comes to this sort of thing though, and everyone has to work it out for themselves. -
Message 25
Posted by Thanks for all the fish (U10654037) on Friday, 8th May 2009
burnt apple, just to say that the very fact that you are posting on here means to say you're trying to decide "what you should say to him".Â
Lol, Well yes, I can't really argue with that, can I?
Maybe he'll really surprise you and not come out with what you're expecting at all.Â
Understatement of the year. We didn't get as far as any great revelations, not about his sexuality anyway, and he made it a bit of a flying visit. Transpires that he's on anti-depressants now, and struggling on at work despite his doctor wanting him to take time off, with stress and depression. He's insistent that it's work related and there's no other cause.
That's bad enough, but he also told me he's thought about killing himself. He said the thought of what it would do to his family and the fact that he's too much of a coward have so far stopped him taking it further. But he just wants it all to end and that's the only way he can see of finding peace. Now this was completely out of the blue and I have to confess it left me reeling - and pretty much speechless!
Should I keep to the listening ear drill, or in the circumstances do I need to be a little more proactive? This is well outwith my sphere of experience, I'm very glad to say, though I gather that the fact that he mentioned it, and is mindful of the impact on his loved ones, is a good sign. He was cheery enough when he left, and I'm pretty sure there's no danger of him doing anything stupid anytime soon. -
Message 26
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Friday, 8th May 2009
I would just listen, and say, whatever YOU decide I will always be your friend.
[unless, of course, he is goung to confess to being a serial killer or summat and you have anticipated incorrectly]. -
Message 27
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Goodness, burnt_apple, your friends and relations do pose you a series of dilemmas.
I think I'd be encouraging him to go and talk again to his doctor and see if a professional listening ear could be organised.
Fee -
Message 28
Posted by Thanks for all the fish (U10654037) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Fri, 08 May 2009 19:59 GMT, in reply to Fee in message 27
Tell me about it(!)
He did ask the doctor if he could refer him to someone but the doc said that wasn't necessary at this stage and to give the pills a chance to work. I didn't ask how long that could take. I'll phone him next week to touch base and see how the land lies. -
Message 29
Posted by Thanks for all the fish (U10654037) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Fri, 08 May 2009 20:11 GMT, in reply to burnt_apple in message 28
Should also say thanks very much to everyone else who's replied. I hasten to add it was the potential end of a long marriage and the fallout that might ensue as a result of his coming out that I was referring to when I mentioned turning lives upside down, not his being gay. That, per se, is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think some of his friends and relatives will feel the same. -
Message 30
Posted by mistle_thrush (U3279940) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Hi burnt_apple
Just seen this thread. So you have a bit of an idea of timescale, antidepressants will take at least 6-8 weeks to have an effect. Meanwhile I hope he finds his GP helpful, and it might well be an idea to think about 'talking therapies' if poss.
And about the suicidal feelings - very important that he does feel able to express them. I know people can be worried that talking about suicidal thoughts can be dangerous, but as I understand it the research doesn't support this idea. Please do bear in mind (and let him know if you can) that the Samaritans would be a good place to turn to if those thoughts persist.
About the other issues - phew, what a minefield. I'm sure the fact that you are clearly there for him and able to take on board what he says non-judgementally will be the main thing for him in all of this.
Good luck, hope he continues OK, and you too!
m_t -
Message 31
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Friday, 8th May 2009
In reply to burnt_apple in message 29
Well, I think it would be great for you to listen to him and be a sounding-board - if that is what he is looking for. I can understand that you can see the ramifications from this, but reading back to OP, I can't help feeling that he has to sort this out with his wife, before any declarations to the wider public.
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