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The End of the Affair
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Wednesday, 3rd June 2009
One of Greene's better books but maybe not strictly what this is about but it was the first Snappy Title I thought of. Anyway. The story is. A pal of mine (well actually she's my ex-sister-in-law but that's not all that relevant apart from the fact that we know each other pretty well because of sharing the same in-laws for years maybe) has recently split up with the the man she took up with a few years after her and Clogs-in-Law got divorced. They'd been together for 3 years and she really thought this was The Man Of Her Life. Unfortunately he has now decided he's not. Hohum, it happens. Life goes on. (Sorry, this sounds much more flippant than I mean it to, I'm trying to keep things short here.) Except that she seems to be in a Really Bad Way about it all. She's now picking over their relationship and looking back at the good times and doubting if they really were so good as she thought they were at the time. Which I think is... I don't know, destructive? She's said she feels like such a failure. 40, on her own again. Whereas in the years after her divorce when she was alone she was such a positive, strong, independant woman. I hate to see her doing herself down like this, trying to work out what she 'did wrong'. Anyway, what I'm really looking for are tips as to how to help her get out of what looks like it's beginning to be a bit of a negative spiral. She's not eating and sleeping well. I feel a bit 'all I can do is listen and offer re-assurance'. But are there 'concrete' things I could be doing? (Vague vague, but I remember once I started a thread here about some problems my neice was having and someone came with the brilliant idea of 'books' which fit exactly into our sort of relationship and I'm rather hoping for a similar 'aha moment' in here if at all possible...)
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Message 2
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Wednesday, 3rd June 2009
Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:14 GMT, in reply to Campbell-in-Clogs in message 1
First of all, she did nothing wrong. Probably neither did he. When my sister and her beloved split up, she didn't tell anyone, but when she told me 6 months later, it was pretty clear to me that she had reached at about the same time, a parting of the ways with her professional colleagues. She had published a book, quite a good one about mentoring at a senior level, and her boyfriend just felt out of it, so he went on his way rejoicing. They had conducted the relationship in a very civilised way in different parts of the country and only met occasionally. It just ran out of steam.
Anyway, 40 is no age. She needs to kill the alternatives, "If I had done this, maybe it wouldn't have happened" etc etc. Turn her back on him and start again. To quote Merlyn in "The Sword in the Stone" Learn something. Do a training course, change direction in other ways. Re outfit herself, even if it is in Oxfam. Reinvent herself, not for life, but just as an experiment to see what she would like. She may prefer her old self, but if she hasn't tried something new, she will never know. Get her to read Eliza's search for the one perfume, sorry Scent. In 4 long threads, it will fascinate and take her out of herself. She may try some new scents and evolve through this difficult period and will certainly benefit from the wit and wisdom of the other posters. Particularly the lovely Captain Wentworth.
If she is allergic to scnet, why not try the search for the perfect shoe, or hat, or other fashion accessory.
She could do what Judith Starkadder does in Cold Comfort Farm when Seth is spotted and transported to Hollywood and become fascinated by old churches.
I don't mean to be flippant, but really fun is the best cure. It helps people in some of the worst anguish, and it is better than drink or drugs, or overeating - as an addiction I mean. Not the normal craving for marzipan.
I hope this helps. -
Message 3
Posted by LindaLee (U2777941) on Wednesday, 3rd June 2009
C-in-C, if it's really recent then I do think that listening and offering reassurance may be just what you should do right now. If your pal is anything like I was after my ex left, she will analyse every facet of the broken relationship to bits, wondering 'what if?' I think that's entirely natural amd maybe something she just has to do.
About a month after my ex left, I went on holiday with a friend (booked before my marriage fell apart) and, bless her, she listened to my ramblings about my marriage every night for a week! She also put meals in front of me, which was very helpful because - left to my own devices - I wasn't really bothering to eat. She also walked me for miles sightseeing so that I was tired enough to sleep at night!
I think if your pal was strong and independent before, she has it in her to be like that again - but it may take her longer to recover that inner strength this time round, and maybe the best help you can give her is to go on being a good friend. -
Message 4
Posted by One (U8211650) on Wednesday, 3rd June 2009
Interesting that you think it's one of his better books Campbell. I read it many years ago, used to be a great GG fan. Still am but I don't really do fiction these days. I found it the book of his I have enjoyed the least, not a patch on The Quiet American or The Confidential Agent (a terrific book) for instance. Possibly I read it when I was too young and unable to empathise with or understand the predicaments the characters were in.
Digressing slightly there was an interesting programme about the film of The Third Man on R4 yesterday (2 June). It dealt with an aspect I'd never really considered, the influence of Kim Philby on the book.
Philby and Greene were lifelong friends and the former was the latter's boss in the wartime SIS. Philby, of course, spent time in Vienna in the mid-thirties working for the Comintern. -
Message 5
Posted by Lilypicker (U8223215) on Wednesday, 3rd June 2009
A friend of mine was similarly independent etc - I felt that she therefore blamed herself *more* for being sunk in an awful pit when she and her ex split. She told me, as if it were a crime, that she felt she was in a deep dark hole - and when I told her "well - that's right then, because that's where you *are* at the moment" - a look of revelation came over her face. I don't claim huge credit as in a way my remark was made out of just the kind of "here-for-you" offerings that you describe making towards your friend. But we talked about it, and it seemed to make my friend see that being depressed and distressed was logical and not something to blame herself for. Not being able to immediately snap out of huge personal trauma is absolutely what to expect, and just because you're used to being strong and happy this doesn't make you a weak fool.
I hope this might help your friend.
Lil(y) -
Message 6
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Wednesday, 3rd June 2009
Thanks for all replies so far, including the bookclublike diversion, which I'm always up for. Will answer them more later/tomorrow when I have more time to think about my replies. But this is exactly the stuff I was hoping for, it's a situation everyone's been in and other 'takes' on it are always helpful.
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Message 7
Posted by Alsdouble (U524298) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Hiya Campbelli'clogs.
Read this yesterday. Not my place to comment. This is a wimmini thread but, here lies the key, in my opinion.
"such a failure. 40, on her own again."
The relationship aspect has just been a symptom of something already there.
She's gotta work on herself. Everyone has to do at some time, and not seek from outisde that which, the answer, lies within.
Something we all have to do eventually. You can put it off, but you can't escape it.
How she does it, well there is all kinds of stuff available and you have to find one.
We are all bruised by life.
Twopenneth over. Hope you don't mind. -
Message 8
Posted by SmoctusMole (U13882662) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Hello Campbell,
'snot really my place to comment either coz of being outside my immediate experience. However, I thought it interesting that you seemed to be saying your pal had more or less sailed through her earlier divorce while it was the breakdown of this particular relationship that is causing her such anguish. Have I got this wrong? If not, then I think it likely that it's been a sort of 'straw that broke the camel's back', like two deaths in fairly quick succession.
As for what you can do - really nothing except to 'be there' in horrid modern parlance. But also the jokes, even if they only help you! It's exhausting being the stalwart friend and to be a true friend right now you will need to lighten your own spirit from time to time.
Regarding Graham Green - wasn't this book said to be largely autobiographical? -
Message 9
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Well, I've worked on myself constantly since teenagehood. I've definitely evolved.
And have I had a successful, long-term relationship? Have I heck as life.
Tell your friend that that is the state of play for most women today. Single and fighting their own corner. I'd say 90% of the women I know are like that. Single. Long-term single. With not a prospect of a relationship in site. Despite being fit and slim, intelligent, and earning their own money.
Tell your friend that 'if you can't please anyone, please yourself'. Because that is all you can do.
And tell her not to get her hopes up. She'll probably be single for the rest of her life so she'd better develop hobbies and interests.
One of my professors (48, 25 years in a relationship, one son and the man walks out on her for a needy, out-of-work actress because according to him he was going through a mid-life crisis) was talking about having a house-warming party. Apart from one neighbour, she doesn't know any single men to invite.
That's the way the world is these days.
Cynical? Moi? You'd better believe it. -
Message 10
Posted by Miladou bloody but unbowed (U3518248) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Dame C, you know that's not helpful - either to the poster, her friend or yourself!
"Two men looked through prison bars, one saw mud, the other stars" I don't know the origin of the quote, but you seem determined only to see the mud. Don't you understand that you're wasting your life by being so negative?
I wouldn't be so blunt if I didn't worry about you. -
Message 11
Posted by Alsdouble (U524298) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Puzzling statement miladu, most puzzling.
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Message 12
Posted by Dunlurkin NL (U2675855) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Not puzzling in the least, als, if you are referring to Miladou's own statement.
Dunlurkin -
Message 13
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
miladou,
I think it's better to be realistic, rather than optimistic.
Why raise her hopes? She'll be all hopeful, keep going and after a year or so start to wilt again as she realises that it's a permanent state of being.
Much better to expect nothing. That way, if some decent man comes alone, she'll be delighted. But if nothing happens, you've still got your hobbies and interests.
Best thing to learn is how to go out alone. People have often said that couldn't go to a restaurant or the cinema by themselves. If I had to wait for someone to join me....
miladou, I know too many nice women who have been single for years. And a know a couple who have put up with ... well I don't swear.. for a long time - rather that, they think, than nothing.
Rather nothing, I think, than that. -
Message 14
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:05 GMT, in reply to miladou in message 10
Up to a point, I think Dame C is right, in that it is only by being happy with herself that she will be ready for a new relationship, and only by being happy in herself that she will get over the last one. As we all know by now, Dame C has not yet given up her old love, so she can't move on.
I really dislike the word 'needy' as though being in need is any more than a temporary situation. If I had a pound for all the times my O/H has been supportive to people in need of support, we would both be a lot richer. It is one of the things I like him for. A sort of universal older brother. The only defence of one's own relationship is to pitch in and help with goodwill, then you both send them off rejoicing.
There's no quick way out of heartbreak, and in a way it is like a bereavement. It takes 2 years to get over a bereavement, and a year to function emotionally. One friend said that he had lost interest in all his hobbies and couldn't understand why. I told him that it was because of his recent divorce, even if it was to be wished for long ago. A year later, he rang us up, overwhelmed by hearing for the first time, the Samuel Barber "Adagio" so it did come back.
But Alsdouble does point out that she needs to work on herself. Maybe in the sense of learning her own satisfactions outside of relationships. -
Message 15
Posted by Alsdouble (U524298) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
I found it puzzling, Dunlurkin.
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Message 16
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Ah, rwth, I did meet someone recently. Drove all thoughts of anyone else out of my mind.
Married, though. So scrap that.
First guy who's interested me in just over 2 years.
That's how likely the chance of meeting a man is these days.
I know a lot of people who work on themselves: spiritually, physically, clothes-wise, you name it.
Still doesn't mean that you automatically get a satisfying relationship or one at all - satisfactory or not.
I know too many intelligent, kind-hearted, good-looking, solvent women who can cook to know that all that ain't going to mean you'll attract a man. -
Message 17
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
C-in-C - sorry to hear your friend is having a bad time. Rwth is right though - she is suffering a type of bereavement, but worse in some ways in that the other person isn't dead.
In terms of what you can do, I think sometimes we have a need to 'solve' things, when in fact all that will do that is time. You can provide a listening ear, but also reassurance, ie that she's not past it at 40, she's still attractive etc etc. But it sounds as though the split is relatively recent, and so she'll be in the first stages of rawness at the mo', I suspect. Not downplaying this but this is a stage in the grieving process and it *will* get better. Perhaps you can go with her to a film or some other activity she might enjoy, if you're geographically close to her? -
Message 18
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:49 GMT, in reply to Dame Celia Molestrangler in message 16
Still doesn't mean that you automatically get a satisfying relationship or one at all - satisfactory or not.Â
Celia, I didn't claim that it is the natural result. It is important, however you end up, that you are comfortable with yourself as a single person. An outward looking relationship is bound to contain a lot of loneliness and emotional self-sufficiency is a skill that most of us do well to cultivate. Can I refer you to the "Prophet" on the subject of Marriage. "Love one another, but make not a bond of love: let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your words. .... Give on another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf".
A person who is happy and relaxed alone will tend to attract, but doesn't have to choose unless the other person is right for them.
Are you choosing people who don't want you, or who are married because you are afraid of committment? That's a rhetorical question by the way. I'd recommend "The Prophet" by Khalil Gibran, because it is a good read, and because it gives a lot to think about. I have learned a lot of wisdom, but not neccessarily applied it. -
Message 19
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Rwth, the way you put it originally, it seemed to imply that that would be the result. Or so I interpreted it.
No, of course I didn't go for a married man. I didn't know about that. Stopped anything developing.
No, after so many hopes, I've ditched them.
Best to just get on with your life, enjoy doing things you like or want to do and don't assume anyone else will be accompanying you.
Don't wait to meet someone, just go and do what you want to do. -
Message 20
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:17 GMT, in reply to Dame Celia Molestrangler in message 19
Easy to say, not so easy to do, but you sound like a woman with a plan, so good luck and have a happy time. I'm glad you enjoyed your Syrian holiday.
How would we cope with the happy times if we had never been sad? -
Message 21
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Yeah, I remember we had a Polish poem in translation in one of our English classes at school which had exactly the same sentiment.
You need the contrast.
Which is why I'm very sceptical about trying to take all the sting out of life. E.g. trying to cushion children from disappointment.
You obviously don't really want a roller-coaster life, but a bit of up and down makes life ever interesting. -
Message 22
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Portmanteau reply I think is the relevant posterish term for what's coming up I think.
Thanks again for all replies. Yes, even you als
Course it's not 'only' a wimmini thread and your input is as welcome as all the rest. Men get dumped and broken hearted often enough too I've noticed.
And everyone has said sensiblish things that I know already too (but it's sometimes handy to have them written down in someone else's words - it reminds and lends clarity).
The camel's back/straw remark was interesting... she did indeed sort of 'sail through' the divorce 7 years ago. In fact I think I started finding her a lot more interesting after her divorce - she did develop and change a lot then. Mind you that was more of a mutual parting of the ways than the unilateral decision on his part she's dealing with now.
I just feel so... tired of all the operative clichés! 'It'll take time'/'Grieving process'/'Don't throw out the good times with the bad' blahblahblah. I hear myself trotting them all out and I just want to scream with irritation sometimes that it's all so predictable. And she's much the same, stuck in this brokenhearted cliché mode and longing just nOt to be this way but not quite able to get herself out of it. Yet.
Practical 'things'. Well it's not as if she really has much time to sit and mope and that she really needs 'taken out'. She has a busy life, work, a daughter, friends, family. I'm certainly not her only support but I do my bit. We went for a long walk with her dog yesterday - Saturday she's coming with me and some pals to the open day at the Horse Sanctuary (my what a social whirl my life is! But maybe a new 'project' would help... Maybe she could dust off her sax again and start taking group lessons - would be a good reason for me to do the same...
Oh before I forget. The Book. I read it when I was 20 and having my own brokenhearted cliché period. The title seemed appropriate and I howled my way through a lot of it as far as I remember. I suspect Monsignor Quixote is my all-time favourite Greene though. -
Message 23
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Sorry to pitch in after such a long absence, but I have known several women who have found a lovely man after the age of 40, and without exception, they were "happy" before they met the bloke. It is not so much solvency, education and the ability to cook that are attractive, but a positive attitude to life and a person balanced in herself who is absolutely irresistible (same applies to lone blokes, I should imagine). I sometimes have the impression that it's the women who don't really need a new partner who find one like the icing on the cake. Maybe that's the secret.
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Message 24
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:30 GMT, in reply to Campbell-in-Clogs in message 22
We went for a long walk with her dog yesterday - Saturday she's coming with me and some pals to the open day at the Horse Sanctuary (my what a social whirl my life is! But maybe a new 'project' would help... Maybe she could dust off her sax again and start taking group lessons - would be a good reason for me to do the same...Â
When my mother died, my sister and I took a walk round the farm, and it was extremely comforting. Not the total consolation, but a bit of much needed relief.
Maybe you should both watch "Genevieve" because of that lovely sequence in Brighton when Kay Kendal borrows a sax and plays a terrific Jazz obbligato, then passes out. Or was it a trumpet? I forget. A saxophone is much more fun than "oldt Churches".
I'm sorry the bits about it taking time etc got repeated. It would have been an invasion of her privacy to explain that you had been saying all this, and of course you have. I'd go for the project, or maybe a completely new project. Why not go and look at all the options. Maybe they will be doing "taster days" at local colleges during the summer. -
Message 25
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Nice to see you back notjen. Have you been away somewhere or just not been in here? (Not that it's really any of my business mind you! Feel free not to answer
I don't think she's really that concerned about being single as such at the moment - she doesn't particularly 'want a new man'. She wants the old one back... Mind you I think she's doing a pretty good job of talking herself out of that frame of mind - I just worry a bit that in trying to free herself from wanting him she's taking apart their whole relationship and declaring it a falsehood, whereas I knOw they were very happy for a good while. But fine, if that's what she has to do, maybe that's the right thing for her. But no, she's starting to doubt things she's done herself, wondering if everything has been false. It's like bits of her life which she thought were real have crumbled to nothing beneath her feet and obviously the effect is unbalancing her. Sorry, rambling a bit here. -
Message 26
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Or, as Goethe put it, "Those who never ate their bread with tears cannot know you, heavenly beings"
(sorry to all enthusiasts for the ropey translation). In more frivolous moments, this was quoted as "Those who never ate their bread in bed cannot know how crumbs prick!"
I have known some sad times, so bad at some moments that I truly wished I could go to sleep and never wake up. I can still remember that agonised feeling, and some of those times lasted many, many years. I learned a lot from them, but I don't think it was the agony that made me a better person, if anything did. I'd rather have been happy (or at least, not sad) and learned in other ways. -
Message 27
Posted by SmoctusMole (U13882662) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Replying to notjenniferaldridge
Indeed, I was one of those women who met a lovely man after the age of 40 - me, not him. In fact I was 48, and I certainly wasn't "on the look out" by then.
But I'm pretty sure that if I'd still had that hunting gleam in my eye as I assuredly did in my 20s he'd have run a mile! As it was, we got to know each other in a very leisured, unpressured way - no fireworks, no angst over non-ringing phones, but instead the lovely surprise of making a new friend quite late in life, and a friend who developed into being totally necessary. -
Message 28
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Thanks for your kind welcome back, C-in-C. No, nothing special, just mad hectic work until last weekend, now relaxing in my little witch's cottage in sunny (yes, really!) Bra'fud. Going home tomorrow. And then mad, hectic work again until the end of July, then back here.
I was once dumped rather unceremoniously just as I had made up my mind that this man was for me. He must have been going through the inverse process! It took me five years of putting a brave face on it before I stopped getting fits of crying in the car (and tears still well up occasionally), and I still can't be in the same room as the chap without feeling uncomfortable. I felt that I hadn't had time to run through the usual cycle of falling in love, reaching a plateau and returning to normality but had got landed in thin air and had a long, hard fall. I was accused of calling the good parts of the relationship into question, but I'm afraid, with very long hindsight, the duration of the agony in relation to less than a year together actually did call the good parts into question. So maybe your SIL is not entirely wrong, however good the good bits were.
I think she's lucky to have such a supportive SIL to care about whether she's getting over it. And it sounds to Auntie Notjen as if she has everything going for her to find her feet again, soon. Sorry I haven't anything more solid to offer. -
Message 29
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
Oh, congratulations, moley (if I may make so bold). I'm so glad for you, and what you say just confirms what I think about happiness found in later life. As I said, I've come across a good few people like you and your partner.
Three of my nicest colleagues, all of whom went through absolutely harrowing divorces, have turned up at recent conferences with a new and quite delightful partner showering attention on them (one has a nasty foot injury, and her new man looked after her wonderfully). They all have grown-up children. -
Message 30
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Thursday, 4th June 2009
well actually it all sounds like a pretty solid description from the inside of what I suspect she's going through too. So thanks for, em, sharing (it's no good, I can't do helpgroupspeak without feeling like a plonker.)
-
Message 31
Posted by SmoctusMole (U13882662) on Friday, 5th June 2009
Slightly off tack, but if any of you saw 'Calendar Girls 10 years on' tonight you will have seen that the nice lady who's husband died and who was the cause of the whole thing taking off has married again, to a long term friend. So there's no such thing as too late if that's what you want.
But I do understand about breakdowns of relationships leaving one with no confidence at all and doubting even the nicest times as this has also happened to me. It's just horrible and soul-sapping.
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