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Help with fallout from affair please
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Message 1.Â
Posted by auntylaura (U5026443) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Anyone out there who can help me with a daughter who simply cannot forgive her father for having an affair?
The background: My husband and I are very close and have until recently had a very strong family unit (two sons and a daughter) which has weathered many a storm, including me having two bouts of cancer in the last ten years. Husband nursed me through both bouts - was at my side for every ounce of treatment and consultation and supported the 21, 18 and 14 year old children throughout. I do not doubt for one moment that he is now and always has been totally committed to me and the children and loves us very much.
Last March (08) he told me that he had just ended a six year on/off relationship with a woman I know well, who has problems of her own and who was hovering in the wings to comfort him when he was at his lowest and most vulnerable and lonely. He tells me, and I believe him because I know them both, that having got involved and extricated himself after a few months in the first place he was repeatedly dragged back into what seems to have been as much a support as a sexual relationship because she kept threatening to tell me what had been going on, having 'cancer' scares of her own and threatening suicide unless he came to heel.
I have had experience of a number of devoted husbands/wives who have 'strayed' under the pressure of illness in a partner or child. In none of these cases did I ever doubt the love of the strayer for the cheated partner - although in all cases it would have been far preferable if it hadn't happened at all.
In the immediate aftermath of the eventual revelation I made an awful mistake and told one of my children who caught me at a low moment (however understanding one is, betrayal is always painful). And so it burst into the family circle and our lives were changed forever.
Fifteen months on my husband and I have never been happier together. I still see everyday the deep regret he has for what he did and its consequences. I took the view from he start that our thirty years together and our family unit, now 28, 26 and 20 were well worth fighting for and he and I have forged a wonderful new life together.
My oldest son who reacted to my cancer by heading to Australia (no support to his Dad but no-one blames him for that) reacted thus : 'How could Dad do that to Mum?' He was shocked and hurt and will take a long time to let it go but said at once he would take his lead from me. Slowly but surely he is re-establishing his relationship with his Dad.
My youngest son reacted thus : 'How could Dad do that to himself?' (O wise one). He saw straight away that dwelling on it could do no good and set about rebuilding. He will never forget and knows that their relationship can never be the same but is building a different one and they are comfortable with each other.
My daughter reacted thus: 'How could Dad do that to ME?'. She refuses to have anything to do with her Dad and what's worse is very angry with me for 'letting him off the hook' and putting her in such a difficult position. This I am finding far more hurtful than anything her father has done, although I am bending over backwards to see her point of view.
It is depressing in the extreme for 4/5ths of us to have come through the crisis in varying shades of intact to be faced with the prospect of the remaining 1/5th occupying such a moral high ground that she is prepared to smash our family life with no second chance whatsoever. I respected her point of view for the first nine months or so and facilitated it by seeing her on my own or letting her only phone me on my mobile. But now I don't want to do that. It seem to me that the longer this goes on the harder it will get to build any bridges.
Does anyone out there have any experience of this? I guess usually it happens when a parent leaves altogether. I never expected it to happen because one stayed!
Are we doomed to fretting about what she will do on birthdays/christmas/family occasions for the rest of our lives or can anyone out there throw me some hope and/or advice? -
Message 2
Posted by Flossie-Collie (U10562436) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Oh dear, this is a very difficult one. I'm really glad for you and your husband that you were able to put his affair behind you and it's great that your sons were able to do that too. As for your daughter, she may come round in time, but I think she's fully entitled to feel the way she does. She's part of the family and she feels her father has let *her* as well as *you* down. I can understand that.
I hope you are fully better from your cancer now
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Message 3
Posted by LindaLee (U2777941) on Friday, 12th June 2009
It seems to me that perhaps you need to give your daughter more time. You and your sons have managed to forgive your husband and 'move on' in your different ways but your daughter is seemingly not ready to do that yet. Is she really 'occupying such a high moral ground' or is she still desperately hurt by her father's betrayal? I don't think you can put a time limit on how long people take to get over something like this.
In my own family, my (then teenage) sons reacted with fury to their father's affair and had only the most minimal contact with him after he had moved out to live with the other woman. This was largely his choice - he found it easier to keep his distance than face up to the damage he had done. Very gradually over the years, and mostly due to the boys' efforts, the three of them have managed to re-establish some sort of father/son relationship. My ex is now with another partner and they all get together occasionally. I have never tried to force or avoid contact between them and never interfere with whatever arrangements they make now. They had to take it at their own speed - there is no right or wrong time for something so painful.
I really don't think you are necessarily doomed to celebrate family occasions separately but it may take a bit longer than you expected or hoped. It took my sons years rather than months, and I don't think that is unusual - though of course other posters may not agree!
It is very heartening that you and your husband are so close again and I hope your health problems are now behind you. Good luck! -
Message 4
Posted by auntylaura (U5026443) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Yes thanks - I'm well out of the woods now, dismissed with a clean bill of health and no more annual check-ups six months ago.
Of course she has every right to feel let down - we all do. I just wonder at what point it would be reasonable to hope that the 26 years of good he's done for her (and ironic as it may sound he has in all other respects been a wonderful father) might get a look in over the one obvious protracted and horrendous wrong. At the moment they clearly count for absolutely nothing. -
Message 5
Posted by BollyKnickers aka Lugh (U13689988) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Of course she has every right to feel let down - we all do. I just wonder at what point it would be reasonable to hope that the 26 years of good he's done for her (and ironic as it may sound he has in all other respects been a wonderful father) might get a look in over the one obvious protracted and horrendous wrong. At the moment they clearly count for absolutely nothing.Â
Firstly, I have no personal experience of the kind of situation you find yourself in. Secondly I admire your attitude with regard to your OH. Thirdly, if you daughter was 16 and not 26 then maybe I could understand her attitude but I think she should perhaps grow up a bit.
For what it's worth, I think you're coping really well.
Lughx -
Message 6
Posted by Sister Primrose of the Red Tinsel Flag (U5405579) on Friday, 12th June 2009
The betrayal is not only of the wife, but also of the children. The fact that you and your husband have found a way through this was by no means a guaranteed outcome, my guess would be that it is probably the less likely result in these circumstances. So, when your husband strayed, he was putting the wellbeing -financial, emotional and possibly even educational - of his children at risk.
A parent's covenant with their children is to protect them and give them a happy stable home. He did not do so, whatever the cause. That is why she is angry.
I agree that you don't have to pander to her by only taking calls by mobile etc. I think you should let her know that you hope that she can find a way to rekindle her relationship with her father, but I'm afraid you can't expect her to sweep her feelings away solely because you and her brothers have found resolution.
Things take time.
As a matter of interest, has he apologised to her for the betrayal?
PP -
Message 7
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Linda Lee, you almost wrote of our family story there even to the distance my ex kept between himself and his sons. Geographical and emotional. One does see his father from time to time but finds it an uphill struggle: ex's partner is very possessive and does not encourage mmeetings without her in attendance. We have been to funerals and a memorial service when ex was there and let's say we managed to be grownups about it. Ex and partner were invited but did not attend two family weddings on his side of the family despite accepting the invitations. The brides were not amused.
I wonder if a daughter finds it harder to forgive a father for what she sees as letting her down, especially if they had a good relationship before the affair. Might take longer for her to realise she misses him a great deal? -
Message 8
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:01 GMT, in reply to silverjenny in message 7
I have personal experience of this sort of situation (although I was 16 the first I /knew/ it happened -- probably 18 months old the first time it /actually/ happened), and I think you have to respect your daughter's feelings. Your husband has betrayed your daughter and his family. You may not like to think that, but -- speaking from my own experience -- that maybe how it feels to her.
Your daughter's feelings and responses are as valid as yours, even if they're different. You seem to be quite judgemental of her, which can't be helping her. Not only may she be feeling betrayed by her father (and have a think about what that might do to a young woman), but she may feel betrayed by you for apparently allowing this to happen. (I'm not saying that's accurate, BTW, just that she has a different POV on this from you).
She's not married to your husband; she is his daughter. That is, she has a different basis for understanding what happened, and a different set of tools for dealing with the situation. She has an entirely a different relationship with your husband, which is her business, not yours or anyone else's. IME she needs to be accorded the respect that is due to her feelings. -
Message 9
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:06 GMT, in reply to Redbookish in message 8
PS You say that she is potentially "smashing" your family life: she may see it rather differently. Her father pretty much smashed her family life. She may feel that the whole picture of a happy family which she thought existed is a big facade and farce. She may feel she has to make a huge adjustment to her /whole/ family history. As your husband's wife, you have an inrtimate relationship with him as an other adult; presumably, it's (hopefully) a relationship of equals. A relationship between parent and child is quite different and based on rather different grounds. There's a different power dynamic.
I think you really need to cut her some slack: saying she is potentially smashing the family smacks of emotional blackmail to me. Just because 4 of you have found resolution isn't a reason for her to do so. To expect or require it on those grounds could smack of bullying. -
Message 10
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Friday, 12th June 2009
So she would rather her mother be unhappy and alone than forgive her husband and by her own admission be happy?
Sorry but I'm with Lugh - she needs to grow up and while she might be hurt she needs to think about her mother who is the greatest sinned against here and what is best for her. She wasn't a child when this happened - she was 20, a grown woman.
G -
Message 11
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:17 GMT, in reply to GEm in message 10
GEm, I think my point to the OP is that this isn't about the mother; it's about the daughter. And she has a right to her feelings, independent of her mother's feelings.
You offer a rational choice, but believe yo me (having been the daughter in this situation) one's feelings aren't rational, and the kind of choices you set out are easier said than done. -
Message 12
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Friday, 12th June 2009
These issues cannot be forced. If someone feels as they do, they cannot be told to change their mind. In fact, effectively devalidating their feelings is a good way to magnify them, ime.
It must be very difficult for you to feel that you, who suffered the greatest betrayal, can forgive that she cannot. But that is how it is - it is a much a fact as the original affair. All you can choose is how you react to it.
Would it help to focus on how to manage the situation rather than trying to change it - perhaps discussing it with her and with your o/h? Things like how calls are made etc -
Message 13
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Sorry got called away and posted by error.
What I mean is - you can respect your daughter's feeling but still ask her to make some compromises for your sake eg being present for some events or phoning the home phone etc.
That way, things start to change but she doesn't feel under pressure to change her feelings - though, of course, as things normalise a bit, they might of their own accord. -
Message 14
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:33 GMT, in reply to Isabel_Archer in message 12
It must be very difficult for you to feel that you, who suffered the greatest betrayal, can forgive that she cannot.Â
Good point, Isabel. I wonder if it's because as a daughter, she had and has no control over the situation? What she thought of as her family has irrevocably changed for her, and she is not in a position to do anything about that: she's not in the position to choose to forgive -- she's being expected to. And now her mother is putting that stress on her as well -- it may feel like a double betrayal by both parents.
Has her father asked for her forgiveness, or apologised, or in any way tried to understand how she feels? -
Message 15
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Ive never been in this situation but I really cant see that what a parent does is any business of adult children if it isnt directly impacting on them which an affair which is over cannot possibly be seen to do. It would be different if they were children and as PP says their lifestyle/family life were under threat but they were all well into adulthood when it happened.
Im with those who think that the daughter should accept that if her mum has accepted what happened and moved on then so should she.
Can I wish you all the best AL, you sound like you have been through such a lot and have emerged stronger. -
Message 16
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Friday, 12th June 2009
I'm not sure that debating whether the adult daughter has a 'right' to feel as she does is that helpful. Her feelings are her feelings however appropriate or otherwise. That's why I would suggest focusing on what she does not on what she feels. However upset she is, could she please make the effort just for one hour, one day, one weekend?
I'm saying this hesitantly Aunt Laura in case it sounds like a criticism but I'm wondering whether you are focusing too much on the idea of the 'united' family. It's understandable after what you have been through but actually adult families tend to go through their strains and stresses and it might be better to roll with the punches a little rather than fixing on an ideal that might be unattainable just at the moment. -
Message 17
Posted by BollyKnickers aka Lugh (U13689988) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Of course the daughter has a right to feel what she feels. What she doesn't have a right to do, IMO, is blame her mother for the situation. What happens between two adults is their business and their business alone. Grown up children will have their opinions but do not have the right to be judgemental of the state of their parents' relationship.
Lughx -
Message 18
Posted by auntylaura (U5026443) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Well things have got lively while I've been out!
Yes PP. He apologised freely and fully. He made sure that each of them had as much individual time with him as they wanted for a full and frank discussion about what he had done, how it had happened, how very much he regretted it, how stupid he felt, how badly he knew he had let them down and how little he felt he deserved their forgiveness. He remains open to such discussion at any time and has stepped back to allow them to come round (if they will) in their own time. He doesn't contact them by phone, sensitive to the fact that they may not want to talk to him but sends supportive text (well done) (glad to hear things are going well) etc. whenever appropriate.
I have watched this man trying to come to terms with the pain he has caused his children and the knowledge that his relationship with each of them is seriously damaged - whether or not beyond repair remains to be seen with the passage of time.
R : I realised when I re-read what I had written that I could be sounding judgemental of my daughter. Not so. The reason we are where we are is because judgemental isn't something I do. I feel for her in her pain - I know exactly what effect such a betrayal could have on her future relationships - I worry for her and want to do what's right FOR HER. That's why I posted in the first place - I'm thrashing about trying to decide what the best thing I can do for her might be.
Instinct says leave her be but I see danger there as I said before. Without the reestablishment of some contact with her Dad she has frozen him in time and in a light that she really doesn't like. He went from hero to villain in one fell swoop. Truth is he's neither hero nor villain - just a flawed human being hoping for (but not demanding) a second chance.
My use of the phrase 'smashing family life' was colourful and not terribly helpful. If she's gone for good I would in fact ultimately see it as the fault of my husband since he was the twit who made the fatal wrong choices in the first place.
Do I unrealistically cling to the notion of a family unit? Perhaps I'm old fashioned enough to do just that. If I had to place my bet it would be that with time the strength of this particular unit will reassert itself and she will come round because it was so important to her. Her reaction is probably directly proportional to its importance in fact.
My post was really trying to gain insight from others as to whether this is likely to take months or years. I fear I am hearing the latter. -
Message 19
Posted by auntylaura (U5026443) on Friday, 12th June 2009
PS. Redbookish - what I have written here was for strangers and is as fair a summary of what I feel as I could make it. I would not dream of saying to my daughter that I feel she is potentially smashing the family or to demand that she comes round to my point of view. I am not an emotional blackmailer or a bully thanks all the same, just a woman trying to take council from others before doing anything unconsidered or potentially harmful to my daughter - or her father. Or me.
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Message 20
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 12th June 2009
auntylaura, I can empathise very much with this although I don't want to give more detail than I've probably let slip elsethread.
I think from what I've been able to glean from other similar situations and from what I can see of the one I am most closely involved in that it is more likely to be years than months - with a gradual thawing rather than a sudden coming round - and that it is probably best not to interfere but to leave them to work it out for themselves.
I think those who think that a child (of whatever age) can be or should be unaffected by something like this are probably being rather unrealistic.
Fee -
Message 21
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Friday, 12th June 2009
I've just come in and read through this thread very quickly so forgive me if I say the same as others already but I do just have to say this; a marriage is between two people, a family is about more people but THE marriage is the two of you.
What goes on between you two is the important bit and if you have forgiven him that is what matters in the marriage.
As parents we are flawed we make mistakes we never get it right all the time. We are human. Your daughter has blown this out of proportion. Your husband did not blow apart the marriage, he played a dangerous game it blew up in his face but the marriage has stayed in tact, it's still there.
Your daughter can be sorry her father acted as he did she can tell him etc but ultimately it is between you and him not her.
No one knows what goes on between two people in their relationship really, do they. What is right for one couple is not right for another. You have navigated a difficult path. You, you and him. Not her. No one should come between man and wife and that includes kids because they don't know. -
Message 22
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Have you thought of writing to her? Put down some of the things you said in the OP and your last post. Explain that you have thought through things and how you've reached your forgiveness. But you do need to acknowledge her feelings, and accept that she may not change them, and even if she does, it might not happen overnight, and she may never feel able to completely trust her father again. But if it's in a letter, you've got the chance to read through and see if wording can be misinterpreted from the way you mean (like leaving out bits about her smashing up the family). And she's got time to read it over and think about it and consider it. That's not always possible in a face-to-face conversation.
Obviously I'm biased just now, but family estrangements - there comes a time when you can't do anything to make it up, and you never can know how much time you've got left. Certainly I didn't have any clue at 28 that I'd have lost one parent within 2 years, and both within 9 years. The relationship between her and her father will never be quite the same, whatever happens next, but there can be some sort of relationship. You can learn to live with your parents' betrayals and still be involved, even if you never entirely trust them again.
It could still be years, though. -
Message 23
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fee, I think that in any situation people will have an opinion. It seems very self absorbed to me though for a 26 year old to react like this when the actual victim of the infidelity is prepared to move on. It would of course be very different if the daughter was a child and her life was being affected in a practical or emotional way. It is very similar to how Debbie in TA reacted to Brian's affair isnt it with jenny being prepared to move on.
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Message 24
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:26 GMT, in reply to auntylaura in message 1
Aunt Laura (hullo from another Laura!)
A couple of other things occur to me that haven't been mentioned, I don't think - one, that a 26-year-old may be projecting her own feelings of infidelity into your marriage; I was about her age when my fiance had an affair and it nearly killed me. I honestly thought I might die from a broken heart as the pain was so much. If she's had that experience, or has helped a close friend through it, then she may be projecting that level of pain onto you, when you are apparently not in that destroyed state of mind, maybe because you are older and more experienced in emotions or perhaps because you know your husband and have 20+ years of knowing him to put the affair into perspective.
Secondly, if she is the only daughter, she may well have retained into adulthood a fairly idealised image of her father. I know the time when one realises that one's idealised father has feet of clay and is human is a terrible experience. Countering that, the time when one realises that a father is only human but is one of the best humans in one's life is a truly wonderful experience, and I hope with time she reaches this level, when the trust is rebuilt and the relationship is better than the idealistic one of old.
If that was the case, then she may be feeling that her world is truly shattered, and it may well take time.
I can't offer advice, but maybe the suggestions above might help. Good luck.
Laura -
Message 25
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Isn't she probably likely to be thinking more about the relationship between herself and her father as part of the family unit, though - and the fact that he put that at risk? It seems to me that part of someone's sense of identity will be their family base and if that security is rocked in anyway it is likely to impact on that sense of identity and undermine your own personal history.
Fee -
Message 26
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Yes he did put the family unit at risk and he said he was sorry. Of course she will be feeling raw and shaken but the family unit is still together her parents have worked the crisis through. She didn't lose him or her mother. What she lost was the "ideal" family image. Well, there are actually worse things that can happen than infidelity, domestic violence for one.
She is a 26 year old woman not a child. It's disappointing but it's not the end of the world. -
Message 27
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Your point is an interesting one Laura but why would someone in their mid 20's be that tuned in to either parent in terms of image etc?. Again it smacks to me of the reaction of a much younger person. I think you could be right about transferrence though. Anything else seems unlikely to me.
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Message 28
Posted by Miftrefs Laura in Lothian bufily ftitching (U2587870) on Friday, 12th June 2009
Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:49 GMT, in reply to whitbyrose in message 27
Dunno why, whitby - thankfully my father never actually /did/ anything wrong but I was well into adulthood when the childhood idealisation fell apart and it hurt like hell - I felt angry, betrayed, resentful, let down... how dare he not be perfect???
Remembering the fury and rage triggered by just realising that he wasn't superhuman... well, if she's an only daughter with two brothers, sometimes the daughter can retain that childhood "daddy's little princess" aspect into adulthood. I've known a few in their late 30s for whom that idealised image never shattered (notably they failed in adult relationships since nobody could match up to their ideal of man).
I know it all sounds very Freudian - but we do base our expectations of people on our parents to a great extent until we get some experience of our own to start basing our expectations on - and if nothing had ever happened if she'd led a rather sheltered life... well, you could quite easily reach 26 without being confronted with the discovery that your superhuman Daddy is actually just a flawed human like all the rest.
I'm just glad that I somehow "worked through" the startled anger" without my poor father ever knowing! He's the best Dad anyone could have now, without being superhuman or perfect.
I hope aunt Laura's daughter can get there, too. It took about two years with me, but that was without anything actually having happened, if you see what I mean, no act of his to cause the shattering.
Laura -
Message 29
Posted by DanskRose (U2257282) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
auntylaura, just chucking my instinctive feelings in here and press delete if you like. Many sympathies with all involved here goes, I hope, without saying.
My first reaction was that your daughter is thinking not just of your marriage but of her own potential marriage. Similar lines to where Laura was going really. We all like to think we will have a stable and faithful marriage without the intense level of heartbreak and betrayal that something like an affair brings - and not a one night stand but a deliberate 6 year betrayal, which is obviously far worse, and she will be seeing it that way I bet.
Your daughter may well (could be totally adrift here) be thinking of her own future long term relationship if she has one. Her image, however unrealistic in RL, of a long and faithful relationship being possible or the norm, has taken quite a battering. This started over seven years ago when she was still a child and so I don't quite agree with those who say she's an adult so buck up.
There may be something to the fact that she's a woman here too. Of course she's going to project herself into your side of the betrayal in a way your sons won't have. She may well now be seeing herself in the future with her partner cheating on her and risking blowing her and her childrens' lives apart. A friend whose father had an affair when she was about 18 went into the "I'll never trust a man in my life" thing for a long, long time. Her brother, while hurt, didn't see it had any possible bearing on his future with his fiancee as he felt he had no intention of cheating. Had his mother done the cheating, well, who knows?
To add to this, you have got over this (you know what I mean, I'm sure it still hurts) in a spectacularly short time. You really are very, very unusual to come to terms with such a long affair in a year and say that you are happier than ever. Testament to you and perhaps to your brushes with possible death giving perspective. That's great for you but I can see how it could feel like an extra layer of betrayal to her. She has been denied seeing him "punished" as she might, in her anger and hurt, feel appropriate. Therefore she might have seen you as somehow collaborating with him in her hurt and also betraying women, and her as a future woman (can't express that properly) who might be similarly betrayed. She possibly felt a need to see you dish out some punishment to make her feel safer, that any men who betray like this will at very least get their severe comeuppance.
Not saying that she would be right to feel like this but I sat a while and projected myself into her situation and this is what I came up with as how I could imagine feeling. If she does approach any of this, she will need time, no hint of feeling that you wish she'd come into line and I am sure she'll come round in what she feels is a timeline that respects her and her feelings in a way she may feel is being currently denied her. You don't have to have done anything to make her feel like that BTW.
Of course, I am well known for talking a load of bolleaux most of the time so, if this is way off, please just know I sympathise and wish you all very well.
I' -
Message 30
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
It is fascinating reading all the different perspectives on this as they are so wide ranging. My own personal feeling is that I dont think it has anything to do with me what my parents do BUT I come from a very stable family background and as my parents are older am looking back in retrospect knowing that our family was never under threat. Im interested that you see 19 as still a child DR. I definitely wouldnt and have been interested in the perceptions of when childhood ends and adulthood starts in here before. Again from a personal level I would have seen myself as an adult from the point where I left home ( the day after I left school at 18) and my kids at about the same point ie when they were 18 and left home.
I made a parallel with the Archers scenario where Debbie reacted like this to Brian's affair with Siobahn which again I felt had nothing to do with her esp as in this case Jenny accepted it. When I woke up this am I was thinking about how strongly some people have supported the daughter in this thread. What occured to me ( back to TA) is that there was a very different reaction in DTA to Brenda's reaction to her fathers relationship with Vicky. I was on the other side of the fence on that one and very much could see why Brenda wasnt happy as her current life was being affected and also the memory of her mum ( and her perception of her family). I think that must be so hard to live with especially if a new family is later formed. I think we all react to things in different ways, have different buttons which can be pressed etc. In my case I dont know why I feel so differently about the two scenarios given that neither has ever affected me personally. I suppose it boils down to thinking that we can and do have opinions on things but that is as far as it goes with someone elses business. -
Message 31
Posted by DanskRose (U2257282) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
"perceptions of when childhood ends and adulthood starts in here before. Again from a personal level I would have seen myself as an adult from the point where I left home ( the day after I left school at 18)"
Exactly the same with me and I was responsible for myself from then on, just as my 18 year old who is half way through his first year at University is. There is though IMO a strange half life between technically attaining adulthood and achieving total emotional independence from your parents. Many people never do, which is clearly a bad thing if it infantilises us but we will almost all of us have a strong emotional attachment to those who raised us and love us and would give their lives for us without a second thought. It's not like any other relationship.
I am delighted (if it were in the slightest my business) that auntylaura has achieved all she has and reached the point she has so quickly and three very genuine cheers for her. It must have been extremely difficult.
The daughter, though I agree that her parents' marriage per se is none of her "business", has had her own betrayal and must work through it at her own pace. There is absolutely no right and wrong timing for her here IMO. Her mum obviously appreciates this and, though it would be much nicer for all the family if the daughter was able to deal with this as quickly so that things could get back to normal, this is, I am afraid, part of the legacy of something as shattering as a long term affair. The ripples spread very wide and they continue often indefinitely. Even auntylaura (sorry to talk about you as though you aren't here) may find the feelings of betrayal and hurt and distrust come flooding back later, long after she thinks they have subsided and that's OK too.
I honestly don't believe that a child who has had as stable and loving a relationship with her father as her mother describes, will stay away for ever. The better the relationship, the more the hurt and it may be as correspondingly brief as it is violent.
If I were auntylaura right now though (and isn't not being auntylaura making it very easy for me to pontificate?) I would from now on put a stop to this enabling of the daughter's behaviour. Acknowledge her rights to any feelings she may have and offer to listen anytime, assert auntylaura's right to have dealt with it in the way she has chosen without the daughter sitting in judgement on this and simply insist that the daughter deal directly with the father or not at all. End of discussion. She may lash out and ignore him for a while but eventually will be forced to do the adult thing and open negotiations.
Anyway, the very best of luck to you all. -
Message 32
Posted by auntylaura (U5026443) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
DR : Thank you for such a thoughtful and insightful response, which I suspect is close to, or pretty much bang on the money. The only thing I will pick up is that she was 19 and had left home when the affair kicked off so not exactly a child..... (I never said - she's the middle 'child'). Strangely it's the youngest who was the wisest and began rebuilding quickest yet he was the most betrayed of the three because he was still young and at home.
I've thought about that a lot and concluded that he in a way found it easiest to see his father more accurately than the other two because he still knew him and though away at university when it broke was still at a stage where he was based at home for holidays and so on. It's harder to build ogres out of people you see over breakfast every day for a month and it means that you have to find some sort of accommodation from the get-go.
Reading what I've written the recurring theme is my fear, directly related to the last paragraph. If my daughter shuts her Dad out (for all the reasons you give - believe me I can helplessly see exactly where she's at) she risks two things. First, building him up into a much worse man than he actually is and second, (and here I make no apologies for what others might see as melodrama) she runs the risk of running out of the time which she may need but not have. My perspective on life has necessarily had to change and I no longer take anything for granted for any of us however healthy we all may be right now.
Have I got over it very fast? Hmm. Have I got over it - do you ever? I suppose my capacity for absorbing hammer blows has been expanded somewhat over the last ten years and I'm pretty sure I know what's important.
My husband behaved appallingly and I neither forget nor forgive the damage he has done to me and our children. But the decent man I married is still there. I've looked in the mirror and cast myself back to what was happening when the third party appeared and without completely baring my soul I can only say that honesty compels me to admit that with the exception of our youngest each of us, including my daughter, played a part in making him feel what he must have been feeling to do something so uncharacteristic.
In those circumstances I would have hoped he'd have found himself a buxom blousy sympathetic blond to let him get everything out of his system. His mistake was putting himself into the hands of someone who, once she got what she wanted and for which she had been angling for a very long time, simply wouldn't let go. Am I deluded in believing this? Some might say so but I know I'm not. I knew her Horatio. And believe it or not, I know him.
The urge to try and put everything right for our children is an overpowering one and it is the driving force for the OP here. I believe that in the long run my daughter will want/need her Dad back because although she 'hates' him now it's still early days.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. The loving (but the hardest) thing to do for her is to let her know we are BOTH still here (and suddenly I see that she has been threatened with the loss of each of us in different ways - never saw that before) and will remain so for her always. Our hope is that by willingly sticking together and showing all three of our children that their lives were not based on a lie - their parents love each other and are in it for life no matter what comes. My personal hope is that they will see that great good can come out of bad and, in the end, take strength from that.
There - you see. Melodrama as promised! -
Message 33
Posted by DanskRose (U2257282) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Melodrama? You'll have to do better than that. None that I can see.
"(and here I make no apologies for what others might see as melodrama) she runs the risk of running out of the time which she may need but not have."
I toyed with adding this to my post as it hit me straight off due to personal events in my life, but shied away from adding even more sadness to the mix! I almost said that, should he turn up tomorrow with a cancer diagnosis, I truly believe she'd be back in a flash. Unfortunately, that's a sad risk you have to run. Telling her this though would lay you open to accusations by her of the vilest emotional blackmail, however true it actually is in fact. You of course know that, I'm not pointing something new out to you.
If the worst comes to the worst and disaster strikes, the ensuing regrets she has about not coming back in time or wishing she had come back earlier are, so, so sadly, still at least partially an effect of the affair and life does sometimes totally suck and we all have huge regrets about things in our lives. I don't think there is anything you can do to protect against this particular fear and so, if at all possible, you'll have to push that away as far as you can and cross fingers, toes and other bits it doesn't come to that. We can't magically fix things for all the children. As a mother of five, believe me I am totally with you on the wish to protect them from every tiny thing, if only that were good for them.
Our own family (not my OH and children) has had its ups and downs and long periods of total estrangements between various members. Pretty much on an even keel right now, which was fantastic when we recently had a shock terminal diagnosis and were able to gather together from the literal ends of the earth and spend time together. Had the estrangement been still going at that time, the sadness and heartache would have been even worse but that's just what would have happened and we wouldn't have been able to fix it.
Many cheerful wishes for you though that it won't come to that. How many stinking things can happen to one family? You're due a break I think.
Your sense of perspective is amazing. -
Message 34
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
As you say, into this mix of very complex emotions, we have to add your own illness. Your daughter must have been scared and worried - perhaps more than she wanted to show for your sake. She may also have felt angry with you for threatening to leave her. She knows that such an emotion is irrational so she focuses on the thing she can see some justifucation for.
I don't think this has to go on for years. Believe me, I know about family feuds and they can seem immovably stuck one minute and then all of a sudden, things start to happen. IME, that starts to happen once people (well, ok, me) start to feel that their feelings are acknowledged and understood even if they're not shared.
So, as I have said, you have to respect her feelings however much they run counter to what youy want to happen. And you do not have to allow her to derermine how you interact. If she is aking you to do things you find uncomfortable eg freezing out your husband, you are entitled to ask her to do it differently. And, while I am of the school of thought that says that growing up happens gradually and may never completely happen vis a vis your own parents, 26 is old enough to be asked to modify some of her behaviour if not her feelings.
Good luck, you deserve it. -
Message 35
Posted by BollyKnickers aka Lugh (U13689988) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Many wise and erudite posts. However, could someone explain to me in what way the daughter was "betrayed"? I would be genuinely interested to hear.
Lughx -
Message 36
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
I've been in this kind of situation aun..no it's no good I used to have an auntie laura and I can't imagine giving out advice to her, so I'll just call you al if that's ok.
My family breakup was caused by me. I'd also been married over 34 years, and my children were 29 32 and 34. I felt enormous guilt about bursting their comfortable little bubble that their parents were happy, but I left anyway as finally I couldn't continue being unhappy and seeing my life stretching into a big nothing. I was 57, and I'm now 61 and married to The Viking 21 years younger than me, and if you think I had problems before, imagine what that caused!
Now, two things leap out at me. Firstly, you cannot blame everything on to the other women getting her claws into your husband. He could have stopped the affair, he isn't a child. I don't know why I'm being so understanding, as after I had all the wrath loaded upon my head, we find out he's been having an affair with the wife of a friend. I was very angry at the time, but not now. Things have moved on hugely.
It was my son (middle one) who was very angry with me until we had a showdown when I told him I would not be spoken to with disrespect, that I was still his mother, I did my best to bring them up against extremely difficult odds that they never knew about and now I was going to find a new life for myself, it was a case of get used to it, or we must continue to love each other from a distance.
My eldest daughter showed the most understanding, having a family of her own to worry about, and acknowledging that she had never led a blameless life. She continues to be my rock.
Now we come to the youngest one, my daughter. At the time I left, she was quite understanding, but as the four years since I left have progressed, regresses into a moody teenager (she's now 34 and married) and takes every opportunity to make me feel guilty, coming out with ridiculous stories about being piggy in the middle between me and her father, which my other two tell me are not true. It's a kind of attention-seeking. Again, I kept quiet, piled the guilt on my own shoulders, until everything exploded and I refused to discuss her father and me and gave her the silent treatment for a while. I admit she knows which buttons to press to get me completely wound up. I felt very empowered to finally stop apologising.
It's taken four years al. My son (36 two children) is now my business partner, and rings me almost every day, confiding in me and being completely supportive of my marriage to The Viking who he likes very much. So that's two off the list.
My youngest behaves like a stroppy teenager and how often do I have to bite my tongue not to remind her how when she was a 19 year old student she brought a 47 year old home and expected us all to be deliriously happy. I made him welcome and was not rude. She, sadly couldn't offer me the same courtesy.
She likes TV very much too and has become close to him, but this is part of the strange hanging on to her childhood versus acceptance that her mother is a person and has her own needs.
My oldest son who reacted to my cancer by heading to Australia (no support to his Dad but no-one blames him for that) Â
This made me feel very sad on your behalf and very angry too. So your children don't behave very well when their support is most needed. Can't she see that her brother hasn't exactly covered himself with glory? No one is perfect after all.
The guilt we carry as parents is huge. It's very hard to step back and say hey enough! I've paid my dues now leave me alone! Believe me, the respect I've had from all three of them since asserting my authority again has been huge.
Your husband is their father. He did his best to give them a good life and then strayed for whatever reason (not clear from your posting) but he's back, supporting and loving you. It's NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS! Oh dear I'm so cross! They have their own lives to live and at their age they should be more mature about life and its various paths.
It's going to be hard to be hard al but you have to give it a try. Stop tippy toeing around your daughter and be the parent in charge again. She has the upper hand right now and it's wrong.
I'm going out now and I'm so sorry if I sound all shouty but I've been in your husband's situation, and I didn't stay. Poor him and poor you and grow up girl!
That's it really. -
Message 37
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:32 GMT, in reply to Isabel_Archer in message 34
Just one small comment to add in general that I don't think has been picked up (and otherwise I agree with what Isabel, Danzac and Laura have posted): no matter how painful the options were for you, AuntyLaura, you had some semblance of choice - forgive and repair the marriage or end it. Your daughter has no such choice - her father will remain her father whatever happened, could have happened and will happen. Freezing out her father is for the moment her only means of showing her free will, as painful as it is for you.
To those who posted that as an adult, the state of her parents' marriage shouldn't concern her, I would rely okay if you accept that the flip side of that view is equally valid - whether she speaks to her father or not should also concern only her and him. A 26-yr old cannot be expected to be both an autonomous adult in emotional reactions and at the same time an integral part of a family relationship as if she were 12.
Lugh, someone else with more specialist knowledge will probably have already replied to you but a woman constructs her femininity from birth not only through her mother but on the basis of her father's relationship with her (girls whose father "validates" them by praising them, whether for studies, looks, activities etc. have generally done better in constructing relationships and moving on, than girls with absent fathers or distant fathers.). If the OP's daughter has constructed herself on the basis of being valued by a faithful father who doesn't lie - knowing that he has lied and over a long period of time is going to wreak havoc subconscioulsy. -
Message 38
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:36 GMT, in reply to Lugh (from small dog to Celtic Sun God)
Lugh, speaking from my own experience -- and I've actually been the daughter in this situation -- as a child in the family the stability and safety of one's family feels as though it relies on the stability of one's parents' marriage. So a threat to that relationship is a threat to the family unit. I certainly saw my father's behaviour as an explicit indication he was no longer interested in or committed to the family unit. That's what his behaviour signalled, whatever he said at the time and subsequently.
I agree with people who say that the parents' marriage is between them. However, from a child of that marriage's point of view the marriage is the centre of the family, so is n a sense a "public" relationship. But the problem is, it's one that a child of tat mariage is reliant on for part of his/her identity, but a relationship over which they have no control. So yes, what goes pn in a marriage is private between the 2 partners, BUT the ramifications of that relationship have *profound* effects on others outside that relationship.
My parents divorced when I was in my early 30s. Even though the divorce was amicable, it was not a pleasant experience as a grown up child** Principally because -- What my parents said to me about the divorce and why etc etc contradicted the story of a happy nuclear family which both parents had peddled for 33 years of my life. THey were now telling me (and this was explicit) -- along the lines of "I was never happy") was that the marriage and the 'happy family' was actually not true. It's p'raps hard to explain if you haven't been through it, but to me anyway, it was as if I had one secure version of my entire background was now being pulled out from under my feet. I felt stupid and humiliated for ever believing it. Sad confession about my character, but true. Luckily my sibs and I are very close, and I no longer live anywhere near either of my parents, although relationships are cordial.
** IME over my extended family & watching friends deal with similar situations, you are always your parent' child, however old you are.
I think it's interesting that a lot of people on this thread have written from the POV of parents or those who've not experienced a ruptre in their parents' marriage. -
Message 39
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
If the OP's daughter has constructed herself on the basis of being valued by a faithful father who doesn't lie - knowing that he has lied and over a long period of time is going to wreak havoc subconscioulsy.Â
True, but I come from the school of Life Ain't Perfect. When she can say she's led a blameless life she can start pointing fingers. IShe's being selfish in continuing this war, especially as it's making her mother unhappy. -
Message 40
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:42 GMT, in reply to E. Yore (low I.Q. pedant) in message 37
no matter how painful the options were for you, AuntyLaura, you had some semblance of choice - forgive and repair the marriage or end it. Your daughter has no such choiceÂ
E.Yore's said more concisely what I've been struggling to express. Evidence, possibly, that a parent's infidelity can cause tongue-tied confusion trying to think it through for some considerable time! -
Message 41
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:44 GMT, in reply to Lilo in message 39
But Lilo, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that she is an adult and should accept what has happened in her parents' marriage and at the same time say she should toe the line her mother has laid out for her. Especially when the older brother is allowed to distance himself without getting the same amount of pressure, from what I can see.
And how do you know that the daughter HASN'T led a blameless life upto now?
The bottom line for me is that the adult daughter shouldn't be made responsible for her mother's happiness, when issue under discussion is in fact the mother's marriage. -
Message 42
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
True Lilo, life ain't perfect - but that cuts both ways. Sometimes, because of choices made, you (ie one) can't have the relationship that you would like to have with your children. Doesn't mean that the choice was wrong, just that there are painful consequences.
-
Message 43
Posted by BollyKnickers aka Lugh (U13689988) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Thank you both E Yore and Redbookish. I will read and digest a little later.
Thank you also for taking my request seriously as I was worried it would sound like someone just being argumentative for the sake of it (and I hate that)
Lughx -
Message 44
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
No EYore (I can't seem to go out yet) I'm not saying she should toe lines her mother has laid out for her. al has tried and tried and so has her father to be understanding, and has got nowhere. I'm suggesting she stops being so accommodating, and tries being a bit assertive. I see a kind of spoilt child having everyone creeping round her. Yes it was hard seeing her brother getting away with it, but he's coming round now, and all she's doing is prolonging the unhappiness.
Of course I don't know if she's blameless, it was a figure of speech.
Isabel, how completely I agree with what you just said. However, with work on both sides, you can come out the other side with a newer improved relationship. -
Message 45
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
My two eldest now think their sister is a drama queen and should concentrate on sorting out the problems in her own marriage. I keep right out of *that* one!
-
Message 46
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
...and anyway, isn't "getting away with it" a pointless exercise in this instance. Their parents are back together, and happy. What's gone on before is over, the halos have crumbled, but they are back together! It's a concentration on the daughter's feelings in this case that is irritating me. I'm not heartless, and I have spent hours and hours talking things through with my children, but it's now time to stop talking and get on with living.
I'm getting in a muddle as the posts are overlapping each other, so I will go out and maybe come back later and see where I'm going wrong -
Message 47
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
I can understand all points of view here. As a parent of teenagers, I do see my children reaching adulthood as the moment when I can start making decisions for myself and not for them and I'd be unhappy to be told well, no, actually, you've got do it the way I want you to - particularly when it involves things as fundamental as relationships.
But without rehashing it, I can also see why adult children find these things very difficult to come to terms with with the consequences discussed here.
But as you say Lilo, time and openness are probably the only things that can help - and meanwhile mutual respect for each other's very different feelings. -
Message 48
Posted by BollyKnickers aka Lugh (U13689988) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
I'm not sure, but I don't think we've 'met' Isabel. Just wanted to say you do seem to talk a lot of sense*, across the threads IMO. Will always stop and read you.
*doesn't mean I always agree with you but, oh dear, I'm not doing very well this morning. I'll give it a rest and come back later I think.
:0
Lughx -
Message 49
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
I have seen a lot of students caused considerable distress by the break-up of their parents and a 26 year old is not much older than that.
I am currently aware of a final year student (23 years old because of a longer than three year course) who has ended up needed counselling for stress - partly usual student stress and partly her father leaving her mother a year or so ago - this girl has tried to remain on friendly relationships with her father (nearly everyone in the family is being very civilised about it all) but has finally admitted that she is very angry with him and has acknowledged that she needs to tell him that before she can get to terms with it all. From what I know of this girl, she is very mature and unselfish and trying to do her best for all concerned - but the bottom line is that she does have a feeling of anger, of loss, of the feeling that her father does not understand what he has done to the family as a whole and her view of her place in it - she now feels a need to express that - and it is probably healthier for her that she should do so
Auntylaura, it also occurs to me that your daughter may not feel able to trust your husband not to do it again - she may be trying to protect herself from future hurt.
Fee -
Message 50
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Saturday, 13th June 2009
Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:12 GMT, in reply to Isabel_Archer in message 47
Very true, Isabel. And a really important thing that parents might need to acknowledge -- and siblings too: each child/sibling has a /different/ experience of the family. So yes, one child may respond differently to another. Just gecause one child responds in a way a parent likes, and another responds in a way a parent finds problematic, does not mean one child is "right" and the other "wrong."
Indeed, in the OP, I thought the way the eldest son disappeared to the other side of the world a rather more problematic response. But he is apparently forgiven etc. I wonder if the mother expects more of a daughter than a son?
I now my mother confided things to me should should /never/ have said. One's father's infidelity can have a profound effect on the ability to trust men: I don't think I really do, So there's a consequence of my parents' marriage that I have to live with, struggle with & try to do something about. And no, Lilo, of course I haven't lived a blameless life, but the fall out from my parents' marriage has had consequences for me, and as E.Yore so wisely puts it, I had no choice over their relationship. So yes, it was their marriage, but it had effects on me as a child. So I think I do have a position from which to comment ... if not a right (not sure about 'rights' in this situation).
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