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When Sex Leaves the Marriage
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Kit Powlett Jones (U2673415) on Sunday, 14th June 2009
Short article with blog/comments.
I thought it was interesting - seemed heartfelt and candid.
Kit
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Message 2
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Sunday, 14th June 2009
I think this is an interesting article and topic, kit.
In the past, sex just wasn't such an issue, was it? I mean, women died from childbirth, and men got killed through war (for example), so the average marriage wouldn't have lasted for more than a few years anyway.
Well, that's my initial reaction, for starters. -
Message 3
Posted by Kit Powlett Jones (U2673415) on Sunday, 14th June 2009
Re: sex just wasn't such an issue
Hmmm. I didn't really think of the article and comments in a historical way. I was thinking about how modern people change (or don't) and how sad/frustrating it must be when you are not on the same page as your partner. -
Message 4
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Sunday, 14th June 2009
the average marriage wouldn't have lasted for more than a few years anyway.Â
About 12 years in the 19th century, but there was obviously huge variation.
The article doesn't seem to mention anything about health issues, unless I misread it. Surely if you marry in sickness and in health, then you take on the possibility that your marriage may end up sexless because of accident or ill health. That sort of thing can put a huge strain on a marriage anyway, regardless of the sex side of things, but some couples work through it. -
Message 5
Posted by David K (U2221642) on Sunday, 14th June 2009
What's sex?
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Message 6
Posted by Kit Powlett Jones (U2673415) on Monday, 15th June 2009
David - being an avid gardener, I know you know plenty about sex. Maybe just plant sex, but still. Kit x
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Message 7
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Kit, congratulations. I think you may have finally found the topic which even anonymous ML messageboarders are too reticient to discuss.
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Message 8
Posted by Kit Powlett Jones (U2673415) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Isabel - I know I don't want to share on this topic, but I did feel like reading what other people had to say about it, and I thought other people to visit TB or TVH may want to read some of the comments.
Kit -
Message 9
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Monday, 15th June 2009
How about when sex leaves your life?
I'm with Brennan - too much work for too little reward. I'd rather eat. -
Message 10
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Monday, 15th June 2009
I know I don't want to share on this topicÂ
So did you really expect anyone else to?
I suspect it's very difficult in this day and age of Viagra and vibrators and constant availability of sex in the media to admit to lack of sex if you're in a relationship - not being in a relationship is the only way you can own up to it, and I have known a few people who wouldn't own up to it, even then - they expected to go out to the pub and pull a man for the night, if not longer, on perhaps not every Friday night, but fairly frequently. I think there's a lot of unspoken pressure/expectations to be having sex at all ages. -
Message 11
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Monday, 15th June 2009
That may be true Bearhug but I also think that sex is a very private thing between two people and is no one else's business. Discussing one's own sex life is like appearing naked in the street - with the difference that you are betraying someone else's privacy as well.
I am glad that we are now more open about sex given the heartache that secrecy and ignorance have caused over the years. But it is one thing to discuss generalities, quite another to discuss one's own specificities.
Kip, I did find the article interesting - and some of the comments. But it is difficult to respond without explicitly or implicitly giving away too much. -
Message 12
Posted by Kit Powlett Jones (U2673415) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Bearhug, no I did not expect anyone else to. I guess I was guilty of broacasting a topic that I didn't expect a response to.
Thanks for your perspective, Celia. BTW, I hope you have been feeling more up since before you went on holiday.
Isabel I agree with what you said especially:
"we are now more open about sex given the heartache that secrecy and ignorance have caused over the years. But it is one thing to discuss generalities, quite another to discuss one's own specificities." -
Message 13
Posted by suepetal (U11727954) on Monday, 15th June 2009
I may be wrong but does anyone think that Irish people like sex more than English. French people have fewer inhibitions, American women are more aggressive and older people enjoy it more than the young. Sex is wasted on the young.
I could be wrong. -
Message 14
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Suepetal, I can't help wondering about your evidence base ...
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Message 15
Posted by littlecandle (U2651900) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Sex is wasted on the young.Â
Well it was certainly wasted on me - I think I was the oldest virgin in England when I finally succumbed.
lc -
Message 16
Posted by Tattyhead (U2777247) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Well, unfortunately, sex left my marriage a few years ago in favour of the bottle(his favour, my misfortune!)
However, have recently rekindled romance with old flame I had not seen for 40 years and sex is wonderful - better than I ever had in 37 years of marriage (and it WAS good, pre-bottle). I never, in my wildest dreams, would have thought I would discover, at 59, the most brilliant s*x ever?! We giggle a lot - especially as, no matter how hard we try, we are not quite as athletic as once we were but we have fewer inhibitions, no worries about unwanted pregnancy, etc. We really have found love all over again but not quite as idyllic as it sounds as there is the not so small matter of his (celibate for 12 years) wife and my alcoholic husband. We are both still attached so there are highs and lows. However, very grateful for this second chance. -
Message 17
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Monday, 15th June 2009
You have been so open and honest Tattyhead that I couldn't bear your post to lie there looking neglected and unrecognized. I'm glad you have found love again and at such a late age ha ha! ;0)
I know of a sexless marriage, didn't start off that way but the last 15 years of it were with out sex but not with out love and affection.
The wife become ill with MS the most aggressive form of the illness I have ever seen. Her o/h cared for and loved her so beautifully and with such understanding. He put "that" part of his life to the back of his mind and got on with the rest of life. He did say the first year was the hardest but after that he really did not give it much thought.
After she died he didn't look for another partner he felt all that was over for him. He loves life, he has a great job, friends who adore him, he knows he is loved but not in that way.
So I think a sexless marriage can work for the chosen few let's just hope that if that's the hand you have been dealt that you are one of the chosen. -
Message 18
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Monday, 15th June 2009
A marriage that is sexless due to illness must be hard but one where you are rejected must be even harder.
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Message 19
Posted by littlecandle (U2651900) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Hi all
Since my rather facetious post upthread, I have been reading the comments on the original NT Times article, and found them gripping, enlightening, intelligent, saddening, and simply human.
This is a huge taboo, not one I'm about to break here in dear old ML, but I must say, as a busy mother of two young children, with a full-time job, a slight but cumbersome disability and a husband who gets up at four in the morning to go to work, it is hard for both partners to have the time and energy for the intimacy that is essential for a sexually-fulfilling marriage.
In a happy place right now, though not without having gone through difficulties. We've had our times of feast and famine too.
best wishes to all
lc -
Message 20
Posted by suepetal (U11727954) on Tuesday, 16th June 2009
Could there be a bit of the Irish in you Tattyhead?
Go for it! -
Message 21
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Wednesday, 17th June 2009
Suepetal, I think you might be, because generalisations are generally inaccurate!
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Message 22
Posted by suepetal (U11727954) on Wednesday, 17th June 2009
I sure am notjenniferaldrich, you mustn't know me well or you would know I was funning.
However, some generalisations are based on generally held beliefs, true or not. -
Message 23
Posted by daphnejonquil (U5267343) on Wednesday, 17th June 2009
I am not sure why everybody is being so reticent about this topic unless many of you know each other in RL, which might be the case.
My marriage became sexless after the birth of my second child and that was the beginning of the end of the relationship. I felt so lonely and shunned when my former OH could not/would not touch me. I asked him why and he said it was because I had become so unattractive. I was humiliated and gave up expecting a physical relationship with my husband. This was all the more hurtful because at the time all my female young mother friends were obliquely hinting that their husbands were making their lives a misery wanting sex all the time. My position seemed to be the reverse.
Years later, after he had left and I let him go, I sought therapy with a very kind older male doctor and at some point I confessed that I was so sad that I would now be celibate for the rest of my life. He wondered why I had no hope of finding another partner. With great embarrassment I explained that my OH had let me know that I was too unattractive for a relationship. He told me "nonsense, you're a pretty woman" and explained that birth is often a point at which men begin to identify their wives as their mothers and so lose desire for them. He felt my OH had done this. That session really was a turning point for me. I can't say I've had a life of unbounded sexual success, far from it, but that kind man of 20 years ago gave me a faith in myself that really never went. I found his explanation convincing and I still do.
For me part of the point of marriage is physical intimacy and I found it so hard to be sexless. -
Message 24
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Wednesday, 17th June 2009
Quite a few of us have met IRL, daphne, and in my case, a few have also met tLG, so I don't think it would be fair on him to discuss our sexlife on here!
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Message 25
Posted by daphnejonquil (U5267343) on Wednesday, 17th June 2009
I thought as much bearhug and I'd be reticent too if you all knew me. Ah, the never ending of mystery of what people do in private.
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Message 26
Posted by suepetal (U11727954) on Thursday, 18th June 2009
daphnejonquil, you can say that again.
Having gone through the separation from my husband on this very site, I must add that getting to know the people we meet on-line has it's good side too.
Perhaps we should set up a dating site here in TVH? -
Message 27
Posted by notjenniferaldrich (U8555450) on Friday, 19th June 2009
Sorry, Sue, you don't know me very well either, or you would have noticed that I was funning, too. Please don't be too purse-lipped with me, I didn't mean any harm.
Frankly, the subject of the OP is not one I would be serious about in any detail in the ML environment, though I've enjoyed reading the comments. -
Message 28
Posted by Lynnie P (U3585914) on Friday, 19th June 2009
Bet you weren't older than me, Little Candle! I thought I'd never get on with it - and have only had one partner, OH.
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Message 29
Posted by littlecandle (U2651900) on Friday, 19th June 2009
Um, twenty-seven?
lc -
Message 30
Posted by one who posted here once (U4064841) on Friday, 19th June 2009
Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:17 GMT, in reply to littlecandle
you've forgotten about Anne Widdecombe! -
Message 31
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Friday, 19th June 2009
When I don't have sex, I become a born-again virgin.
When there's the possibility of sex, then I want it now, and again, and some more please... what do you mean you're tired.. the night is long...
But when it stops, after a while, all the urge just goes.
I remember ...ooh.. possibly 20 years ago Stephen Fry saying that he didn't like the idea of sex (he was going through a celibate phase) because it meant you had to rub your slimy bits against each other - and that's how I feel when I am in my born-again virgin state.
It's like there's this huge dam. Break it and all hell pours out.
It's really strange. I know some very well... maybe not prudish but very 'neat and tidy' people who wouldn't do half the things I'd do in bed, who have confided to me that they couldn't live with out sex and also the kissing and cuddling that came with it.
Lucky for me then that the desire soon fades as I can go for years in a sexual desert. -
Message 32
Posted by littlecandle (U2651900) on Friday, 19th June 2009
I've discovered that, so long as we both start out freshly washed, I'm not neat and tidy in bed, and that, I suspect, I might find too much fastidiousness to be terribly off-putting.
Similarly, I'm not easily shocked; mind you, I've had a vanishingly small pool of partners who have never asked me to participate in anything too weird.
Being a late starter does have its benefits - the novelty hasn't worn off yet!
(Though I will concede, LynnieP, that Ann Widdecombe might possibly be an older virgin than I was.)
lc -
Message 33
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Saturday, 20th June 2009
Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:05 GMT, in reply to littlecandle in message 32
Without making assumptions, Anne Widdecombe may not have yet succumbed. Even as a butt for unkind humour, I bet she has had offers. She's very interesting, and not all men are fixated on non-mothers.
I was very boring and fell in love at 17 with inevitable follow through. I don't think a man has the right to accuse a woman of being unattractive. There are plenty of very ugly and seemingly unattractive men around and they have sex, presumably. In any case, low self-esteem can cause women to eat instead of pining for sex, so which came first, the chicken or the egg? -
Message 34
Posted by one who posted here once (U4064841) on Saturday, 20th June 2009
Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:43 GMT, in reply to Rwth of Cornovii in message 33
Anne Widdecombe's made it quite clear she's not a virgin - she was the first famous middle-aged virgin that sprang to mind -
Of course that article's 10 years old. -
Message 35
Posted by suepetal (U11727954) on Saturday, 20th June 2009
Warm cuddles and good kissing, hugging and holding, loving and laughing,as good as or better than sex. Actually, I think finding someone who can make you laugh is a real turn on.
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Message 36
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Well, I know that my aunt and god-mother in Berlin are virgins from comments they made to me once. Nothing has changed since then. My aunt has a martyr syndrome. My god-mother believes you have to be married to have sex.
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Message 37
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
I'm pretty sure my maiden great-aunt in her 90s is still maiden. Not to mention never having had a drop of alcohol, other than communion wine.
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Message 38
Posted by jollysaucepanlids (U12449929) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Warm cuddles and good kissing, hugging and holding, loving and laughing,as good as or better than sex. Actually, I think finding someone who can make you laugh is a real turn on.Â
Yes, in fact I think physical displays of affection outside the bedroom are for most people essential for good sex. I know a couple who have not had sex for years. He wants it, she doesn't because he never shows her any affection in the way of kisses, cuddles, hand-holding etc. They still share the same bed, (she naked) which I think must cause him terrible frustration. She probably doesn't realise this as her libido is virtually non-existent and she thinks that men are like women and eventually lose the desire for sex if they don't have it for a few years. She is willing to go for counselling but he isn't because he says it's all her fault. She doesn't want to have separate beds as that would be admitting that their sex life is permanently over, but they seem to have reached deadlock and I don't know what else they could do. -
Message 39
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Sounds like they need this:
Different people show their love in different ways. She thinks love should be shown physically - hand-holding. He displays it in a different way. My dad does little things for my mum - like washing the car. DIY and stuff.
He must feel something for her otherwise he wouldn't be there still. I know many men who'd have left that situation a long time ago. -
Message 40
Posted by LooseWheel (U2499574) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Ok here goes...I've been married for twenty years and probably haven't had sex for at least three years, possibly more (I can't honestly remember). I was, if I'm honest, pretty much off sex by the time we got married, though I never let OH know this - during the time we were 'courting' I'd been like any other young lovers, up for it all the time, so my initial turn off (which I don't remember) sort of crept up on me. We had Miss W some 6 years into the marriage and sex went from infrequent to non existent - she's now fifteen. I love my OH and I know he loves me, but sex does not play a part in our relationship at all - there have been times when I've wondered what it would be like to have a satisfying, sexual relationship with the man I married, and I'm sure he's done the same, but at the end of the day, we both appear to be quite happy with the status quo - at least, he doesn't say he isn't happy anyway (and I'm sure as eggs is eggs that he'd rather be with me sexless, than without me) - we do love each other very dearly - I'd be just as lost without him - it's just difficult to summon up the interest - I often feel that I'm actually asexual because I just don't care about it one way or the other.
LW x -
Message 41
Posted by LooseWheel (U2499574) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Ok, so now I feel more of a pariah than I did before, what with having no response whatsoever to my post. It took quite a bit to be this honest, but now I wish I hadn't bothered. Sorry, I know I'm probably over reacting.
LW x -
Message 42
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
No No LooseWheel please do not feel over looked. I read your post and thought you very brave for opening up as you did. But I have people here and I'm in and out of the kitchen - being the perfect hostess and all that- and can not respond as I would wish.
I'm not even sure what a pariah is - is it some sort of fish- anyway you are not a fish or whatever you are a lovely brave poster and when I have time I will try and respond accordingly.
Love me. xx -
Message 43
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Oh blasted flea on re reading I didn't mean love me I meant love from me.
Too much wine so little time and all that.
People coming in, I don't want them to know my secret, posting in here I mean gotta go.. -
Message 44
Posted by LooseWheel (U2499574) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
Thanks HAP - not that I was just sitting here waiting for a response!! Mustardmitt, I thought long and hard before posting, because it's a subject that's prone to a lot of taboos and misunderstandings. My OH and I are very happy together, though effectively celibate - I certainly don't look elsewhere for sexual pleasure - outsiders may find this hard to believe/understand.
LW x -
Message 45
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
My OH and I are very happy together, though effectively celibateÂ
Well, I think that's a very important thing to note. The article in the OP suggests that without an active sexlife, you can't have a happy marriage - but I would argue that problems in a relationship are not the only thing to cause a lack of sex. Every relationship is different, and some start with tons of sex and stay that way, others never had much, others change because of illness, or bad work (mismatch of shift patterns and so on), or screaming children, and all sorts of other reasons. You can have intimacy without sex, and I think you can also have a sexual relationship without having penetrative sex (that can get into a whole other debate, as IME, Bill Clinton isn't the only man who seems to think it doesn't count unless you have penetrative sex - would be interesting to know what their wives think about this...) -
Message 46
Posted by cattyfiddle (U2227703) on Sunday, 21st June 2009
LooseWheel - I really do understand how you can be happy with your beloved partner and be celibate. What goes on between a couple is so unique and not open for judgement I think. I have been in a similar situation and kept thinking 'should I be unhappy about this?' - yet I wasn't at all - in fact very happy. It was just different. It sounds like you have a lovely relationship and that is more than a lot of people can say.
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Message 47
Posted by diasporatehousewife (U9694450) on Monday, 22nd June 2009
Mon, 22 Jun 2009 06:21 GMT, in reply to catty_fiddle in message 46
I read somewhere that a couple have as much sex in their first six months together as they do over the entire remaining course of their relationship, and I think that about sums it up. Very interesting article which resonated for me - as did many of the brave posts upthread. Sometimes I think the phrase 'shut your eyes and think of England' has more than an element of common sense in it. -
Message 48
Posted by Once-a-Ginge (U1486077) on Monday, 22nd June 2009
Loosewheel, please don't feel like a pariah. If it helps I want you to know you are not alone. I've been married 39 years, OH and I love each other dearly, but our sex has always veered bettween bouts of "going at it like rabbits" and longer periods of abstinence. Two years ago he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and had his prostate gland removed. We are of course delighted and very relieved that he now appears to be free of cancer, but it is a disappointment that the side effect of the operation is functional impotence. Disappointment, yes. Disaster, absolutely not. In some ways we are happier now than before the operation, because there's no pressure, no worrying about not feeling like it oneself but not wanting to let the other person down.
Tabs -
Message 49
Posted by Lemon Sabotage (U9577550) on Monday, 22nd June 2009
LooseWheel, I was fascinated by your post. I have thought very hard about posting on this thread, partly because I am a meet-attender, but what the heck.
I was in a 12-yr. relationship that was blissfully happy in every way apart from the fact that in the last few years my sex-drive had gone down to zero. My partner was such a nice person that he told me it didn't matter. I assumed that it was something to do with the menopause, and didn't want to go on HRT, so I didn't bother to try and do anything about it.
After a complicated chain of events, which I won't go into on here, we are no longer a couple, but still very good friends. And I have discovered that my libido-situation was completely reversible, as it were. At the age of 53, my body is behaving the same as it did 35 years ago.
I don't think there is any particular moral to my tale, except this: a change in circumstances can change how your body reacts in ways which may astonish you. -
Message 50
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Monday, 22nd June 2009
Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:34 GMT, in reply to LooseWheel in message 40
You are really not the only one Loose Wheel. I read an article some long time ago that said out of marriages that lasted a long time, a high percentage didn't have sex at all or for a long time.
I found that quite comforting, because it takes two to tango. If a man refuses to accept the need for foreplay or any touching, he is not going to find his wife very aroused. They are supposed to take the initiative which includes persuasion and arousal.
We are probably mind mates and are affectionate, but haven't had marital sex more than about 10 times in our long married life. It's one of his enthusiasms that was overtaken by other enthusiasms many years ago. Real ale, cars, photography, little spirit stoves, sailing etc.
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