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Humanist funeral question
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Message 1.Â
Posted by PhyllisDoris (U2224329) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Unsure whether to post here or The Bull - but it's quieter here.
Elderly relative, fortunately still with us, but thinking ahead, wishes to have a Humanist funeral service. The question is, where can this take place? It will be a burial in a 'green' burial ground, which has no facilities, and in any case is too remote for most people.
Does anyone know what would usually be done in these kind of cicumstances? For instance, would it be out of the question to hire a church (I think there would probably be a fair number of people who would want to be there)? -
Message 2
Posted by Petrovic (U2381632) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:54 GMT, in reply to PhyllisDoris
Hello Phyllis
Savvie (Savannah Lady) knows all about this so with a bit of luck will be able to help out - otherwise, this has been discussed before but some time ago; maybe someone else will have a link to a previous thread? -
Message 3
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Hi PhyllisDoris,
Savvie is the person you need here, but I have been to several humanist funerals held in a variety of places - a village hall (not with church connections), a relative's garden (with a marquee in case of bad weather) and a recreation of a Bronze Age roundhouse in the woods - which is open to the public but was commandeered one evening, probably without any official permission.
My local church hall has no religious symbols, if that would be a problem, except for a discreet cross at the top of the noticeboard inside. I'm a pragmatic atheist and wouldn't have a problem with it. My I commend your family member on thinking in advance about this. It's a great gift. -
Message 4
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:14 GMT, in reply to PhyllisDoris in message 1
THis might help:
Also, I remember organising my grandmother's funeral. She was a member of the Spiritualist Church, and unlike a lot of her fellow members was not a Christian in parallel. (That's another topic ...!) The undertakers found us an Anglican priest, but in the end we went for a civil celebrant registered for funerals, as the Anglican priest is bound by the rues of the CofE about the kinds of things he must say in a funeral service. These would have made a mockery of my grandmother's beliefs.
So I'd say a church would not be great as a venue: what about a village or local community hall? -
Message 5
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Monday, 15th June 2009
I have been to 4 Humanist funerals in churches and there has not been a problem at all. Oh, and a memorial too.
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Message 6
Posted by Eileen (U2438659) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:04 GMT, in reply to posh in message 5
I don't know the answer to your question, PhyllisDoris but, as others have said Savvie is a humanist celebrant, as I believe is amethy5t so they should be able to help.
It might not be an issue with the church to hire out the premises for a humanist funeral but I'm wondering whether the celebrant might have an issue. The reason I'm asking this is because when we were organising my dad's funeral I'm pretty sure the celebrant said any music would be OK, "except for hymns, of course" (to quote him). I didn't take him up on that because, in the end, we didn't choose any hymns because of time constraints and other music being chosen, although "The Lord's My Shepherd" was considered by us at one point as my father had remarked that it had been sung at both his parents' funerals, so would have had personal significance for him rather than religious (we are all atheists).
I'd be interested to hear the official take on this. -
Message 7
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Monday, 15th June 2009
I think it depends on the church really, I have been to humanist funerals in churches where the music has ranged from 'White Rabbit', 'Always look on the bright side', Mozart, 'I'm a Gnu' to Faure's requiem.
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Message 8
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:25 GMT, in reply to posh in message 7
I think my point was partly that as my grandmother was not a Christian, it would not have been appropriate for her memory to have anything to do with a Christian church, although socially, that's what would have been expected. -
Message 9
Posted by Eileen (U2438659) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:27 GMT, in reply to posh in message 7
But it was the humanist celebrant who said "except hymns, of course", Posh. I did wonder about it because there istime set aside for people to have a quiet moment or say a prayer, if that is their leaning (not sure if that's explicitly invited) and was quite shocked by the implied intolerance (hope that's not too strong a word to use here). -
Message 10
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Monday, 15th June 2009
umm, well, it is possible to be an athiest and still like hymns.. I am anti war but am a blubbing wreck on armistice day [I always go to the ceremony to pay my respects] us humans are complex creatures and rightly so.
Humanists [those I have met] realise and repect that. -
Message 11
Posted by Flakey (U13643566) on Monday, 15th June 2009
I could not agree more Posh. I love a hymn and get wet eye action on 11/11.
Flakey -
Message 12
Posted by Eileen (U2438659) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:55 GMT, in reply to 2flakey in message 11
That's why I found it a bit odd. Perhaps it was just a personal thing with him. In any case it made no difference in the end. -
Message 13
Posted by PhyllisDoris (U2224329) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far - I had a feeling that someone in these parts was a Humanist celebrant, but couldn't remember who.
That looks like a useful book, RB, and I will see about getting a copy.
Using a church wouldn't be a problem for us, if it was allowed - and the local one would be very close to the house.
I'm surprised about the celebrant apparently not wanting there to be hymns - we had 'Cwm Rhondda' at my dad's (humanist) funeral because he'd always liked it (and so do we), and we felt that those present who /were/ Christians would appreciate it too. The celebrant had helped us with choosing the music and was perfectly happy with that one. -
Message 14
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Maybe they said that because they thought you wouldn't want them rather than saying you couldn't.
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Message 15
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Monday, 15th June 2009
As others have said, the person you want is Savvie.
I think that it is British Humanist Association policy that hymns, prayers and (possibly) religious symbols are not allowed. Maybe there are other celebrants who refer to themselves as humanists other than those who work within the auspices of the BHA. There are also commercial companies who will provide an officient who will preside over any mixture of religious/non-religious songs/prayers etc that you want. It's possibly such an officient who presided over the 'humanist' ceremony that included hymns.
As regards the law, I beleive that you can hold a funeral ceremony anywhere you want.
We had a humanist ceremony for my Mum. Perhaps the most important part for my sister and I was that the celebrant (I've often wondered whether it was Savvie!) came to talk to us for a couple of hours about Mum before she drafted the eulogy (or whatever it's called). She then sent a draft to to us, and we spent about half a day reorganizing and rewriting parts of it (we didn't have to). It was actually enormously cathartic in giving us a chance to talk and think about various parts of our relationship with Mum that were not 'straightforward' - at the same time as giving us a more distant perspective to put things in context.
I hope that you find a suitable way of celebrating your relative's life that fits with both their wishes and the needs of friends and relatives. -
Message 16
Posted by SassieVicar (U11015741) on Monday, 15th June 2009
As an Anglican priest, I do find it rather odd that people might want to hold a humanist funeral in a church! Not being argumentative, truly; I just don't understand it.
Sass xx -
Message 17
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Becuse that is the community focus? I grew up in a village [well, town, cos we had a town hall] but there was the catholic church, the chapel the URC and the 'Fishermans church'..
Most only saw the members for matches, hatches and dispatches but the fishermans church was OURS.. -
Message 18
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:46 GMT, in reply to PhyllisDoris
Hello there Phyllis - just spotted on another thread that you needed some advice.
I am a Humanist celebrant and have taken quite a number of funerals over the years, some in very different sorts of places! With woodland burials, sometimes there is a sheltered facility on the site which can be used for the service and sometimes we conduct it by the graveside itself. The latter is less than satisfactory if there are a lot of people attending the ceremony because of the possibility of inclement weather, plus the fact that a large crowd is unlikely to be able to hear everything. Oftentimes, we will have the main part of the service in a village hall or in someone's garden and then have a brief committal service at the graveside. Increasingly, the newer woodland burial sites which come under the auspices of the local authority, are being created with a non-denominational 'chapel' type building which plays host to all kinds of funeral services, not just Christian or Humanist ones.
On rare occasions, the local bishop will allow a church to be used for a Humanist ceremony (funeral, wedding or baby naming). This is generally (IME) where the family have lived locally for many generations and are well known to the local clergy who are able to accept that one or other member of the family is not of the faith. There are a few Humanist celebrants who are uncomfortable in churches but I would say the great majority of us regard churches as simply buildings (often very beautiful ones) which could, more usefully, be made available to all members of the community. Therefore it is rare that a celebrant will refuse to conduct a Humanist ceremony in a church, but mainly that the church will not allow the church to be used for a Humanist ceremony. I would say that this is something that the family would need to negotiate with the local vicar who (usually) has to have permission from his/her bishop.
Humanists do not believe in gods or 'supernatural' beings. We believe that we only have one life to live and we believe in the innate good in human beings to take responsibility, without benefit of punishment or reward, for our own lives and, wherever needed and possible, for the lives of others. Thus you will understand that our services would not expect to contain prayers or hymns. Our services are completely personal to the individual who has died and are written specifically to encompass their lives as fully as we may in the time available, to pay tribute and bid farewell to them and to help those who are bereaved to begin to come to terms with the loss of a much loved person. That said, many of us understand that certain hymns have particular resonance with an individual - the so-called 'Navy Hymn', for example - and are quite happy for that music to be used to 'play in/out' an old sailor. But we do not read prayers or use religious words - that would of course be hypocritical. If, for a special reason, /someone else/ wanted to read something of a religious nature, we would stand aside for them to do so, but we feel that if people want a non-religious service then that is what they should have.
As has been said upthread, there are commercial organisations who will do 'mix and match' ceremonies for you - a bit of a prayer or a hymn - alongside other more secular words. Some Funeral Directors also offer such a service. Most people who choose a Humanist ceremony do so because the humanist philosophy is one which they are at ease with and which they feel accommodates their views of life (and death). You can find out more about us at:
I hope this answers your questions and is helpful to you. On the BHA site you will be able to search for the nearest celebrant to you (or your relative). We are all perfectly used to discussing funerals for people, with them, before they die - sounds morbid, but it happens with us more than with many because people who want a humanist funeral generally often want to make absolutely sure that is what they get! Do call one of your local celebrants if you want more info and help or post here for me and someone who has my email contact will, I am sure, be willing to make contact with me (as I don't frequent ML much these days)and I will advise you whom to call.
Hope your relative does not need our services for a long time!
best wishes
Savvie -
Message 19
Posted by Celtic Tiger (U2229153) on Monday, 15th June 2009
You could possibly use the "chapel" at your local crematorium. An elderly neighbour of ours died recently who was a member of the Christadelphian Church and for complex reasons the Church was not accessible for her funeral. The Christadelphian celebrant and the undertaker arranged for the service to be held in the crematorium and afterwards the coffin was driven away to be buried as the deceased wished.
Until last week I had no idea that using crematorium facilities in this way was possible. -
Message 20
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:04 GMT, in reply to CelticTigerAgain
You could possibly use the "chapel" at your local crematorium.Â
Yes, that is another possibility CTA. Crems do tend to be very busy places generally, though some of them have separate chapels if they also have burial grounds and they don't get a huge amount of use.
Now I am really going!
Savvie -
Message 21
Posted by PhyllisDoris (U2224329) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:20 GMT, in reply to savannahlady in message 20
Many thanks for taking the trouble to write all that, savvanahlady (And thanks also to those kind posters who sent her here). You have been most helpful. I didn't know that it might be possible to use the crematorium chapel for a burial, so that is something to consider. The actual burial ground would be out of the question in any weather, as it is down a long windy farm track - and a fair number of my relative's friends are on the elderly side. Will use the website to look for someone local to my relative (who lives 300 miles away).
My thanks again. -
Message 22
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:02 GMT, in reply to Eileen
I did wonder about it because there istime set aside for people to have a quiet moment or say a prayer, if that is their leaning (not sure if that's explicitly invited) and was quite shocked by the implied intolerance (hope that's not too strong a word to use here).Â
Oh lor - meant to include an answer on this Eileen (you'll be laughing at me now I know and saying nar nar na nar nar!)
We do indeed include a quiet moment for reflection or quiet prayer and are careful to tell people this at the start of our ceremonies. I should emphasise that humanists are not /against/ religion. We respect other people's beliefs and hope that they will similarly respect ours. What we do ask for is equality and that, I'm afraid, is sadly lacking in this country where there remains far too much discrimination on the grounds on religious grounds. But that is a whole other debate which has been had many times here and I will not get into it again.
A final, final word - there are quite a lot of people out there who claim to be 'Humanists' who say they are 'accredited by the British Humanist Association' (BHA). We know this because we often get complaints about some of them and have to explain that they are not members of Humanist Ceremonies (which is the Ceremonies arm of the BHA) and so we have no control over their standards of performance, etc. Only those celebrants who are listed on the BHA website are the ones who are properly trained, monitored and accredited by the BHA. It is a real problem to us and when we hear of people making false claims we do write to them and tell them that they may not use this designation. Unfortunately we cannot afford recourse to law so often they ignore us. I say all this so that anyone who wants a BHA Humanist Celebrant should go to the BHA site, click on Ceremonies, your post code and the type of ceremony you are looking for and you will find a properly accredited person.
going, going, gone .....
Savvie -
Message 23
Posted by Eileen (U2438659) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:35 GMT, in reply to savannahlady in message 22
Thanks for your clarification here and earlier, Savvie.
How are you keeping? I hope no more headaches. There was some talk a while ago of possibly another operation but this time on your heart. Any news? I do hope you're feeling well and enjoying life. -
Message 24
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:44 GMT, in reply to Eileen
Oh well in for a penny....
Yes, I am doing OK, Eileen: thanks so much for asking. I was diagnosed with COPD a few weeks back so they are currently trialling different meds to improve this as much as poss before we look at having a pacemaker fitted to help the heart failure. I am not keen on this because it is likely to inhibit my travelling and other activities a bit, so I am glad I insisted that they check for lung function first! Headaches are rare thank heavens!
I hope you are keeping well and I noted somewhere a while back that you are planning on returning to the UK for good - is that right? If so, my heart really does bleed for you on leaving the lovely Italy.
much love
Savvie -
Message 25
Posted by Eileen (U2438659) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:50 GMT, in reply to savannahlady in message 24
Ah, good news on the headache front - that must be a huge relief. Good luck with the rest.
Yes, the time has come to return. I miss my Loved Ones but hope to return here a few times a year to visit (and also I help my landlady rent out a holiday home, so keeping up to date with that will be a good excuse to visit). It is lovely here but I'm beginning to feel a bit isolated and am looking forward to getting stuck in when I get back to UK. This 4 year break has refreshed my view of my own country, which is great. -
Message 26
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Savvie, do undertakers have your list if people request a humanist funeral?
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Message 27
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 15th June 2009
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:36 GMT, in reply to silverjenny
Put it this way SJ - we send out a Directory of accredited celebrants to all FDs every year and local celebrants give them extra copies as well. Odd that quite a few claim never to have seen one despite our best efforts! Especially as our Directory is circulated by the association of FDs on our behalf!
That's really why I say check with the website because that is always there and always uptodate (eg if someone retires during the course of the year or new celebrants pass through the training, mentoring and accreditation process).
I have really blown my new rule today - after so many successful days too!
I blame all of you for this, it's not my fault, oh no!
love
Savvie -
Message 28
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Monday, 15th June 2009
mea culpa, Savvie.
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