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Dyeing to meet you...
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Kishtu (U14091165) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
... apologies for the pun....
*braces self to do presentation*
My name is Wealas and I do a lot of work with natural dyes - mostly wool, spinning on a drop spindle and weaving with a warp-weighted loom that Lovely Man made for me.
I find historic dyes endlessly fascinating and would love to talk about natural dyeing if any of you have done it.... just as a for instance, onion skins - the papery, un-smelly bits - make the most gorgeous tawny autumnal beech brown on wool. No mordant required. Just boil and go.
I love it. -
Message 2
Posted by BollyKnickers aka Lugh (U13689988) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Hello Wealas. I know nothing about dyes but you make it sound fascinating. Hope there are other dyers out there, wanting to chat. I shall lurk enthusiastically.
Lughx -
Message 3
Posted by Iva Nedake (U4264966) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
I'd like to bet that Laura in Lothian will have a lot to add to this thread.
I'm sorry I can't add anything but I, too, shall lurk with interest. -
Message 4
Posted by Iva Nedake (U4264966) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Drat, I meant to welcome you to Mustardland, Wealas - so, welcome.
Just in case you've not already seen it, have a look at the link for answers to frequently asked Messageboard questions.
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Message 5
Posted by Marigold (U2227056) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Iva, you beat me to it - my first thought on reading the OP was "Laura"!
[How are you, long time no "talk"]
Welcome, Wealas, skipful of your fancy ready whenever you are. -
Message 6
Posted by Doodlysquat (U13738858) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Hello Wealas...another interested lurker here. I rather fancy dying some wool with onion skins and then knitting a cardigan with it. OK...so where do I get suitable wool for dying? Will any commercial white wool do or does it have to be the expensive hand spun stuff done by the local enthusiasts? Will it work on a wool and man made mix.....Sorry to be a bit ignorant but have never thought about dyeing before. Will I need lots of water...I live on a boat and water is on ration! Can you direct me to any internet sites that will give me a bit of information?
Oohh....welcome to Mustardland BTW. Have a skipful on me in the Bull.
suze -
Message 7
Posted by Iva Nedake (U4264966) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Hello Marigold,
I'm well thanks. I hope you are too.
[Great minds think alike]. -
Message 8
Posted by Kishtu (U14091165) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Murky buckets me dears.
Iva, I read that link and first thing I saw was "make sure you never say anything that migh identify you in RL" and I thought oh bolleaux!! what have I said!!!!
But then I read on and realised it wasn't a subtle hint *phew*
What I'm involved with researching at the mo is regional "Dark Age" (10th/11th century) textile. Hence the obsession with one for the woad.... -
Message 9
Posted by WildMarjoram (U14026934) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
I too will lurk with interest. Last weekend I was cooking beetroot and thought what a lovely colour it is and wondered then if it was used as a dye. Where would one get the wool? Presumably one could use natural dyes for ready made material too. The only thing that sticks in my mind about dyeing was that when we took the children to visit a Roman palace years ago they were told that the Roman's used young boys' urine to fix the colour. Apparently after puberty the hormones changed and didnt work. Was this true?
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Message 10
Posted by Marmalade Drizzle (U2239190) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Hello Wealas,
I too would like to register my interest in this subject (while we are waiting for laura to find this thread).
I have had a long held minor ambition to create an item using dyed fabris/yarn and natural stuff.
I am particularly interested in the onion skins but I thought you needed something to 'set' the dye?
I am thinking of dying some unbleached cotton yarn and then crochet it up into squares or a patchwork quilt made from squares of dyed cotton ( I have cut up and saved all the childrens outgrown school shirts and my husbands workshirts ready for this) to make a completely recycled thing.
marms -
Message 11
Posted by dean volecape (U1477030) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:37 GMT, in reply to Wealas
Hi Wealas, what kind of colour range do you get with woad and different mordants? I once saw a series of wools dyed (by Penelope Walton I think) with madder and was amazed by the variety.
Also wondered do you use fungi - again I was fascinated by a display of fungus dyed textiles - dazzlingly vivid colours.
I've never dyed anything - must try it. -
Message 12
Posted by Judith Hearne (U7775397) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Another with a keen, but completely inexperienced, interest.
Marms, I think when Wealas says onion skins don't need a mordant, she means, No, you don't actually need anything to set the dye.
The thing I remember most vividly from the lovely, escapist "World Without End", set in the 14th century, is the account of the cloth dyeing processes and the value commanded by good dyes and mordants.
Wealas, have you used woad? Because I'm planning to try growing it next year, with dyeing in mind.. -
Message 13
Posted by Judith Hearne (U7775397) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Whhoooops. Sorry Wealas, just seen that you have indeed mentioned woad.
*note to self: Re-read before getting all excited and banging out a reply...* -
Message 14
Posted by Marmalade Drizzle (U2239190) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
In that case Judith I might be tempted to experiment....
And growing woad sounds very intriging. How do you go about it? Can you get seed or do you have to buy special plant plugs?
Oooo... I might try too!
marms -
Message 15
Posted by poshquilter (U3799549) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:51 GMT, in reply to WildMarjoram in message 9
The only thing that sticks in my mind about dyeing was that when we took the children to visit a Roman palace years ago they were told that the Roman's used young boys' urine to fix the colour.Â
I am sure when I have tried dyeing something I had to add something to the rinses which was urea or similar. Presumably the same thing? -
Message 16
Posted by Lottica (U13961948) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Hi Wealas,
Another one interested here; Ive been to a couple of talks about natural dyeing and picked up some good books, but haven't had a go yet. From what I gather you need an awful lot of raw plant material to wool weight.
I'm a feltmaker so am interested in dyeing raw fleece.
I'm off tomorrow for a few days so really should be packing right now, but when I get back, I'll post up the book titles if anyone is interested. -
Message 17
Posted by U14104444 (U14104444) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:06 GMT, in reply to Lottica in message 16
therewas a gardener's world s[ecial on a few years ago, I think they were at a big allotment place in Birmingham and there was a woman there (Brazilian?) who was growing plants specifically for their dyeing properties. She made some lovely colours but unfortunately I can't remember too much detail -
Message 18
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
I thought urine was usually used as a fulling agent to soften up fabric.
Mordants - which fix the dye - are often salt or alum (which was manufactured from collected urine, and I guess there are salts in it, so it might well fix dyes.) From what I remember at school - we had a few lessons on homemade dyes and fixing them - some mordants will also change the dye colour a bit. We used onions skins and blackberries, can't remember what else.
Also can't remember if it was chemistry or home ec. -
Message 19
Posted by U14104444 (U14104444) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:32 GMT, in reply to Bearhug in message 18
it's (urine) also used in the manufacture of tweed cloth -
Message 20
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Thursday, 20th August 2009
Tweed's made from wool, isn't it?
I think it breaks down some of the lanolin and so on, making it cleaner. Wouldn't swear to it, but probably have a book on it somewhere...
Uric acid and urea are common ingredients in cosmetics. -
Message 21
Posted by Kishtu (U14091165) on Friday, 21st August 2009
CoooOOOooooo HOW much interest!!
All righty in no order....
I wouldn't, myself, use "white" wool to dye, because to make it white, it's usually been chemically treated. Undyed wool is better (I tend to get mine on a cone from a website called Texere Yarns)- or cotton is good too - linen can be a bit of a pain in the bue-tox, as Forrest Gump would say, to fix natural dyes to. Undyed fleece also good, I am told but haven't tried weaving and/or knitting with locks of fleece, there is something called I think Freedom Wool which is unspun lengths of fleece dyed some fairly mad colours - I had a look at it in local wool shop and admired but couldn't think of anything to do with!
Bingo on the mordants. The great thing with the period I am interested in, is that the chemical mordants - tin, iron, copper, alum - were either prohibitively expensive or they just hadn't developed the technology to extract the salts. And wee is indeed a useful mordant (I'd need to do a little research on that one but imagine it depends for its chemical analysis on what water area you live in and what you've been eating recently!) There are more dedicated dyers than me who will collect it for weeks *shudder* Part of the reason we used the onion skin was that it doesn't need any other intervention - we had a punnet (a lidded plastic one from the Riverford veg box to give you a clue as to size) filled to the brim with peely oniony bits. That gave us about a preserving pan full of red-brown dye. -
Message 22
Posted by Kishtu (U14091165) on Friday, 21st August 2009
Back (and again in no order...)
Another non-metallic mordant if rhubarb leaves or roots (oxalic acid iirc and poisonous so handle with care!) - tannin also works, either a boiled up solution of oak galls (like you find them knocking about all the time) or tea, having said that the latter two would change the end colour.
I haven't used woad, yet. We have got some woad seeds, which a friend kindly gave to us. If they take, this time next year I may be in the same position of handing out seeds to all and sundry in desperation. Having said that, it is also possible to dye with the seeds and not just the leaves. The pigment in woad is indigotin, so it's very difficult to tell from archaeological evidence whether or not fabric was dyed with indigo or woad...we can only guess because of the nature of the fabric (ie if it was a homespun everyday wool textile chances are it would be woad-dyed, woad being a native plant, and if it swas something a bit special it *might* be indigo dyed and imported.) I *have* used indigo. I am told that both woad and indigo *stink* in production. Hmm. I can't wait
We tried beetroot a couple of weeks ago. We were disappointed that it didn;t come out that lovely ruby red, but it *did* come out a rather pretty pale greenish yellow. The only red we've had so far has been with madder, and we used the rhubarb leaf mordant - came out a lovely bright orangey-red, almost a henna colour. -
Message 23
Posted by Marmalade Drizzle (U2239190) on Friday, 21st August 2009
Thanks for all that info Wealas.
And quite timely too as i recently harvested all my onions.
I shall now find a suitable recepticla to collect the skins in and search for some unbleached cotton yarn to work with. (I'm allergic to wool).
marms -
Message 24
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 21st August 2009
Good luck with growing woad - I always struggled a bit with it. Haven't tried for years.
I am surprised beetroot isn't a good red dye. After all, it stains everything in sight usually, and I've still a little bit on my hands, even after having been swimming in chlorinated water. -
Message 25
Posted by Glorybal-MUSTARDLAND FOREVER (U7278111) on Friday, 21st August 2009
Texere - mentioned above - do cotton yarns. They may be at the NEC at the moment as I have bought stuff from them there for embellishing a quilt.
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Message 26
Posted by Glorybal-MUSTARDLAND FOREVER (U7278111) on Friday, 21st August 2009
Beetroot makes bluish-red if a drop of vinegar is added or a purple if a drop of ammonia is added. That is if I remember correctly an experiment at school nearly 50 years ago.........
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Message 27
Posted by Marmalade Drizzle (U2239190) on Friday, 21st August 2009
Thanks Glorybal.
Years ago I bought some unbleached cotton from a man on the market, for knitting up my own washcloths. I shall see if he is still trading and if not will look up the Texere people.
marms -
Message 28
Posted by Small Town Girl (U1483784) on Saturday, 22nd August 2009
I haven't done any dying since a tie-dye t-shirt back in the 60s, but I am [hopefully] going with the local knitting group for a visit to the Texere warehouse on 6 Sept, so may well have a look out for their natural yarns while I'm there.
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Message 29
Posted by Kishtu (U14091165) on Monday, 24th August 2009
Glorybal, you are a star. More beetroot (argh) arrived in the veg box last week and Lovely Man and I hate the damned stuff
Discovery of the weekend is that yer umble and actual nettle gives the most astonishing YELLOW dye.... which is as well cos most of the veg patch is given over to the blighters. We had some alum-mordanted fleece knocking about (Renaissance Dyeing sell pre-mordanted fleece which is really useful) and tried unmordanted, alum mordant, and soaked in iron oxide solution. (Um that will be water that's had a rusty Brillo pad soaking in it.... tee hee)
The worst we got was a pale creamy khaki (untreated) - yellowish olive for the iron oxide, and really quite amazing yellow for the alum.
And tomorrow the world!!!
Thanks for the help already guys. You've given me loads of inspiration. -
Message 30
Posted by Glorybal-MUSTARDLAND FOREVER (U7278111) on Monday, 24th August 2009
There is a health warning on my beetroot dyeing advice as it was 1959 when I was in the first form.....
My son asked whether it might be red cabbage rather than bbeetroot - informed him that red cabbage was unheard of in the Dark Ages.
Fruit/ herb teas can be used for dyeing small amounts - I think hibiscus gives a pale pink.
Lots of quilters dye fabric. Is there a quilt shop near you? Quilters are very free with advice..... -
Message 31
Posted by Glorybal-MUSTARDLAND FOREVER (U7278111) on Monday, 24th August 2009
I used to hate beetroot until I tried it slow roasted and dribbled with olive oil and balsamic vinegar at Le Manoir. Changed my perceptions completely and turned me into a fan. It is the way it is prepared (mostly) that makes it unappealing....
Spinach - first form memories again - gives a green but can't remember what happens with acid and alkali additions.
Will put dyeing at the top of 'things to think about when trying to go to sleep' list. -
Message 32
Posted by Kishtu (U14091165) on Monday, 24th August 2009
Oh I don't know Glorybal, your guess is as good as mine what they had knocking about in the Dark Ages - not entirely sure they had beetroot as we know it either, so now he's said that about the red cabbage wotthehell wotthehell, we can but try both! They've found archaeological evidence of cabbages and they've found ditto of beet, so why not!
(When red cabbage comes into season that is)*
*Now have picture in my head of red cabbages writhing about and chirruping like ... like.... well like things in season!
There's not a quilt shop as such but we do have a big fabric shop with a quilting section so that might be worth popping in and having words with.
Someone mentioned blackberries as well recently. *Eyes bushes round car park thoughtfully*.... -
Message 33
Posted by Marmalade Drizzle (U2239190) on Friday, 30th October 2009
So... has anyone else had a go at this then?
I have been dyeing left, right and centre. I've used an alum mordant and an iron mordant and have used natural materials such as blackberries (grey lavender), elderberries (light lavender) onion skins (vibrant orange), fig leaves (lemon yellow), pine cones (russet brown) and have 2 lots bubbling away on the stove as i type.
I have only done it in 50g lots so, following on from my fleece squares, and going to work them into squares and sew them up into a throw.
marms -
Message 34
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 30th October 2009
Interesting site, pity it is the US,
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Message 35
Posted by Marmalade Drizzle (U2239190) on Saturday, 31st October 2009
I've been using this UK one:
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Message 36
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:43 GMT, in reply to WildMarjoram in message 9
they were told that the Roman's used young boys' urine to fix the colour. Apparently after puberty the hormones changed and didnt work. Was this true?Â
Don't know about this, but the fullers, who cleaned the white wool togas needed urine from anyone to get the bleach to work properly. Fuller's earth and urine, and maybe other stuff too.
The only way to be sure is to try a few things with your beetroot and see how it goes. Not a colour I like, but it might fade to a better one from my point of view. Any colour you can't wash out when it stains, ought to be available as a dye. My neice showed up at a party with a lovely ecru coloured blouse. She said it was a white one she had socked in tea. I'm tempted to see what happens with coffee. I have a pashmina that would look very good in that colour, and it already has a stain on it which might disappear when dyed. -
Message 37
Posted by DeeKay Bee - Disenfranchised (U236881) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I noticed this site has a list of what gives which colour (IYKWIM)
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