Messageboard
The Village Hall聽 permalink
90-year-old living in squalor
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.聽
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03 GMT
Down a little track half a mile from where I live is a semi-derelict old wooden chalet in which a woman of 90+ lives. She has always been a strong-minded and combative character and she has lived for many years with a vast assortment of dogs and cats. She has walked past our house with the dogs twice a day for many years and we talk over the fence. About a decade ago she gave up looking after herself in the cooking and cleaning sense. A number of local people volunteered to shop for her, and my partner and others tried to keep the place vaguely sanitary - a difficult battle because she is a dreadful hoarder who keeps ordering things via mail order and collecting junk. I have been in on the odd occasion to try and clear out kitchen cupboards, but wasn't allowed to throw anything away - including bags of sugar like cement, flour that should have been used by 1991 and breakfast cereals that had turned to dust in their packets.
The house is now overrun with rats and there is so much accumulated dog and cat poo everywhere (she is down to one ancient dog) that it stinks to high heaven. She seems to be incontinent, which adds another dimension to the odour. OH donned a decontamination suit in the summer and tried to wire the place for her - the rats had bitten through the wiring and she was living without power. If I say that he stripped naked in the garden and scrubbed himself under the hosepipe before burning his overalls, perhaps that will convey the grimness of her living conditions. I was called in yesterday to change a lightbulb and the stench and awfulness almost made me sick. There were rats all over the place.
Social services visited a few years ago, decreed that the place was a health and safety disaster zone and offered her a place in a residential home, which she declined forcefully. Because conditions are so bad, no home help or carer can be asked to enter the house.
In recent months her health has deteriorated badly, The last dog is on its last legs and everyone is agreed that when it goes, she will give up and die. The thought of finding her, half-eaten by rats, is on the minds of everyone involved. She will not let anyone help her, but those of us who are aware of her and have been involved are feeling awful. The only option seems to be to get her sectioned and placed in care - and that doesn't seem right. If anyone has known about anything similar, I would be pleased to hear what happened or if there are other options. -
Message 2
Posted by rainbowLaure (U8486235) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Sounds horrible, Morganish, but I am totally against any forced removal - however justifiable it seems.
As you have been on friendly relations with her, I wonder if you could tempt her with the idea of being helpful to animals. Maybe if she allowed people to clean up her house and get rid of the rats she would be considered as a foster home for an old dog or two as all the rescue organisations are in such dire straits with over-crowding. Not sure whether that could happen or not, but it might give her a reason to cooperate. -
Message 3
Posted by Kind Mrs Van Rentl (U2315000) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
I wonder if the only thing is to make sure someone contacts her every day, so that when she does die, you can at least extract the body. I know that probably sounds callous, but it is either that or completely over-rule her wishes by force.
-
Message 4
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:58 GMT, in reply to rainbowLaure in message 2
It's a nice idea, Rainbow Laure, but if we shifted much of the contents of the chalet it would fall down: everything is rotten. I don't want to sound callous, but the only thing for the place is a match or a JCB. I am not sure whether she 'sees' how bad the house is or not. Sometimes she seems terribly ashamed of the situation - but still unwilling to allow anyone to do anything more than shift the deckchairs on the Titanic, if that makes sense. Various options - installing a static caravan in the garden, going for respite care while the place is cleaned out and repairs done - have been rejected out of hand. A combination of pride, shame and sheer fuddy-mindedness
Sadly, I think the only option is KML's suggestion. It seems to be the only thing we can do for her. But it's a horrible situation to be in and as winter approaches... Well, we're bracing ourselves for the worst.
Sorry: nothing anyone can do. Just on my mind a lot at the moment. -
Message 5
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
It might be that she's so much on her own that she considers the rats as ...well.. not so much friends but someone to share the house with.
Until recently, I had ants in the kitchen. A bit of a nuisance, but very interesting.
A friend of mine bought a little box with something inside it that that killed them off.
And it was strange, but I felt a bit bereft when I didn't see them around every day. They were quite fascinating.
So maybe she is sort of fond of the rats.
Maybe you could go around more often and sort of drop hints that if she doesn't get help in to clean up that the council might take her away from her home - or her home away from her. -
Message 6
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
I think the least worst thing to do is to leave this poor woman to live out her days in her own home with her beloved dog.
The alternative - forcing her into care and her dog euthanised would probably kill her or at least make her last few months/years miserable.
I don't think promising her that leaving her home just to get it cleaned up would work either. Why would she believe it?
It would be different if she was more or less comatose, or she lived near other people so there would be a public health risk.
Don't know how she gets her food, but if those concerned could make sure she is stocked up for herself and the dog, and leave her hot soups/casseroles from time to time (even if they never see her), I would leave it at that.
I think checking on her every couple of days is a good idea, both for her sake and the dog's. speaking for myself, I wouldn't care if I was eaten by rats, as long as I was actually dead first, but it isn't nice for those who find the body - or what's left of it. Also it would be dreadful for the dog to be left for days/weeks afterwards when food and water had run out.
Rusty -
Message 7
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:36 GMT, in reply to Dame Celia Molestrangler in message 5
The rats aren't her friends: she doesn't like them, but she seems to have become inured to them and with her senses impaired by age she is perhaps not as aware of them as we are.
Everyone stopped dropping hints some years ago and started talking head-on, as it were. She knows the options. She talks about her own death: she is tired of life and only hanging on till the last dog dies. She has always been a fuddy-minded old wotsit (not a charming, compliant elderly lady). She doesn't want to go into a home, even if we think that she would be more comfortable. She doesn't want us in there trying to clean up because that implies that the place needs cleaning up, which she can't deal with.
I guess there have always been elderly people like this, preferring to live and die on their own terms, rather than lose their independence. It's just such a disconnect with the ultra-controlling modern Blair-ite world where everything is patrolled and policed... -
Message 8
Posted by musicalGill (U2477991) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
脷nfortunately not waking up the next morning in your own house is how most people want to go, before they become a burden to a lucky few they manage it. Which ever way you look at going in to care looses you your independance and your home, whatyever teh state it is in, your freedom. You may get fed regular meals extending an equally miserable existence, with you food you don;t like people around you all the time 'bullying' you into enjoying yourself.
You have to want to go into care otherwise it becomes a prison, many may realise it is better after a while but most will want to go on their terms.
There is often complaints about old people in homes staring out at the wall but in many cases this is all they want to do.
Take it from someone who knows.
We can only do our best and you are doing yours. -
Message 9
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Morganish, it sounds as though this woman has a mental illness and there is nothing much that can be done unless she acknowledges it and seeks help.
-
Message 10
Posted by Kind Mrs Van Rentl (U2315000) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
I have a feeling I'd rather die in a rat infested house surrounded by squalor than in a home where they tried to get me to play bingo and sing.
She is making a valid choice IMO, even if she is out of step with what we consider to be civilised society.
Mind you, I quite like rats. -
Message 11
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
If that's a mental illness, then I know quite a few people who'd be 'suffering' from it.
It goes under various names:
stubbornness
cussedness
cantankerousness
knowing one's own mind
wanting to do one's own thing
not liking to be bossed around by other people. -
Message 12
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Dame Celia, compulsive hoarding is a mental illness.
-
Message 13
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:02 GMT, in reply to Auntie Molly in message 9
I don't think she is mentally ill. She's got a thing about hoarding stuff, and yes she's lost interest in domestic stuff and is ashamed of how bad things have got, but she can still hold a sparky conversation about the news, she knows what day it is, she's not frightened or paranoid or anything like that. Her memory is sharp, her ability to communicate unimpaired and straightforward (no delusions) and she has a good understanding of her options. She is, as DCM says, proud, stubborn and cussed - and actually, the more I think about it, rather brave. -
Message 14
Posted by That Old Janx Spirit (U2140966) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Ah, I thought you were referring more to her refusal to do anything.
-
Message 15
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:10 GMT, in reply to Auntie Molly in message 12
She hoards things, but it's not a mania. Like a lot of elderly people she finds it difficult to part with old stuff in case it is some day useful. She has a dreadful old armchair that successive generations of cats and dogs have fouled. People give her things to try and make the place more comfy, but it backfires. Someone gave her a nice, clean armchair with the expectation that she'd chuck the old one out. But she's kept it because it belonged to her late sister and is the last connection she had with her. The upshot is an even more crowded living space with a stinky chair still in situ. I don't think this is mental illness. -
Message 16
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
There is a disorder called Diogenes syndrome, or senile squalor syndrome, which I thought this lady might have, it's characterised by extreme self neglect domestic squalor and tendency to hoard stuff, but also lack of shame. So perhaps this lady doesn't have it after all.
-
Message 17
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Animal hoarding is also considered a disorder by the way.
-
Message 18
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
I'm wondering if that poor dog is getting the basic care it needs? Dog has no choice in what is happening.
-
Message 19
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:41 GMT, in reply to Lilo in message 18
One of the people who is involved is a local vet, so yes, the dog is fine. -
Message 20
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Good. Then if the rats aren't affecting you, then I'd be inclined to suppress my bossy ways (mine not yours) and keep a daily eye on her somehow. It's a terrible thing to think of her collapsed and dying in the winter temperatures.
-
Message 21
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
She hoards things, but it's not a mania.聽
But you said in your opening post that keeping her home sanitary is "a difficult battle because she is a dreadful hoarder who keeps ordering things via mail order and collecting junk. I have been in on the odd occasion to try and clear out kitchen cupboards, but wasn't allowed to throw anything away - including bags of sugar like cement, flour that should have been used by 1991 and breakfast cereals that had turned to dust in their packets."
I'm sorry, but that does sound pretty manic to me, especially as her hoarding is making it impossible for her to live comfortably and hygienically and yet she still can't bring herself to part with anything. You also said in your OP that about ten years ago she gave up looking after herself. Why do you think she did this? Was it because she was no longer physically capable, or because she just lost the motivation to keep herself and her surroundings clean? Anyway, whether or not she's mentally ill, the only thing you can do as others have said is to keep an eye on her. A very difficult situation. -
Message 22
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
When I was at school, I used to shop on Saturday mornings for an old woman who lived by herself. She was a watered down version of hwat you describe - the house wasn't vey clean and smelt, though I suspect there was no real health risk.
What she valued more than anything else was her independence. She wanted to stay there, and didn'tw ant to go into a home. Eventually she was found on the floor with hypothermia. Someone decided to hospitalize her, and she was dragged kicking and screaming into an ambulance. She died within a day.
For some people, their independence is teh only thing of value (to them) that they have. -
Message 23
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:17 GMT, in reply to Flightless (Anachronistic) Bird in message 22
. Eventually she was found on the floor with hypothermia. Someone decided to hospitalize her, and she was dragged kicking and screaming into an ambulance. She died within a day.聽
One of the signs of moderate hypothermia is thinking that you're fine, not cold at all.
There probably wasn't another course of action that the paramedics would be able to do. -
Message 24
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Hi C-B, I didn't mean that hospitalizing her wasn't the right course of action (or the only practical course of action). But it did seem to be generally agreed that hospitalizing her was what killed her.
It's a very difficult situation, but it does need to be remembered that for some people their independence is ultimately all they have left. -
Message 25
Posted by pahnda (U6794915) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
As far as I know, section 47 of the National Assistance Act (1948) can still be used to allow for the compulsory removal from their homes of (predominantly elderly) people to a place of safety. I have seen this used, but it was a long time ago, however it is there as a last resort.
-
Message 26
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 14th October 2009
Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:24 GMT, in reply to Flightless (Anachronistic) Bird in message 24
I wonder if the hypothermia was what actually killed her? Nobody would know, would they? Poor soul. -
Message 27
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:44 GMT, in reply to carrick-bend in message 26
Morganish, I've been thinking about your situation; if the lady doesn't come under the definition of sectionable under the Mental Health act, from my experiences that mental illness puts herself and/or others at risk, I think that what your doing already, supporting her the little she allows you to, checking every day on her and the dog, and the vet being involved to try to make sure the old dog doesn't suffer, if as much as can be done, with respect for the lady herself.
I think that you, your OH and the other people involved are acting really conscientiously and humanely. -
Message 28
Posted by politeLadyPortia (U7099336) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Pahnda - yes s47 National Assistance Act 1948
can still be used but is a last resort action. Very difficult issues here if the lady has ,as does seem to be the case here,full mental capacity
PLP -
Message 29
Posted by sadie (U781345) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
We are dealing with a similar issue with our next door neighbour.
She is alcohol dependant and has had mental illness and has lived alone in a 5 bedroom 4 storey house for 10 years or so. She is not of pensionable age and is known to all services.
At the moment she is in the house having been in hospital for a while earlier this month. Her house was in a dreadful state, she buys fresh meat/fish etc then forgets about it and it goes mouldy, a month or so ago the house was full of flies and maggots. Environmental health have cleaned the house dozens of times and each time it returns quickly to a state.
Social services say she has the right to live as she chooses, but we have struggled with the smells, the flies, and the constant calls for help, her other neighbour and I have picked her up a 100 times each at least.
Now she has been given an alarm around her neck and the ambulance is there at least once a day, yesterday it was 3 times. Each time it is to help her get back onto her chair or something.
The GP is talking about the National Assistance Act, as after 10 years of this roundabout everyone is getting to the end of their patience.
It is desperately sad, she is a clever and interesting woman in the brief moments of lucid thought she has, but it is a nightmare to live next door to.
Hope your neighbour copes with the winter, perhaps all you can do is offer support when she will allow it and keep in touch with her often.
good luck
Sx -
Message 30
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:29 GMT, in reply to sadie in message 29
rom the experience of friends, trying to care for their relatives, if alcohol is involved, the mental health sector will not section unless other people are at risk, so, in some situations, the person is literally free to kill themselves. -
Message 31
Posted by the_shellgrottolady (U2395646) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Yes, I've been thinking about this too ...
what would happen if the enviromental health people got involved?
Would the old girl be allowed to continue in the house?
could you maybe find out the implications of calling in enviromental health?
I know it's good to be independent but leaving someone in this condition just doesn't seem right and the fact that you all know about it makes it impossible to ignore.
It sounds as if she presents well mentally (as the saying goes) but it must be pretty awful for her on a dat to day basis.
I don't know - but it's good that she does have caring people around her - if the place was cleaned up and she got some decent food (meals on wheels perhaps) she might be alright for a bit longer.
If I suddenly became (more) mentally unbalanced and started hoarding stuff and letting the chickens in the house to poo everywhere, my now sane self would hope that someone would come in and help me out no matter what I might say to the contrary at the time.
I don't think the freedom for someone to basically die in their own filth aged 90 is right.
Sorry to go against everyone else here and sound a bit harsh - but if I don't post now I won't and will then keep thinking about it.
cheers
shell -
Message 32
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
First, I agree that if it is a public health issue that action should be taken under that legislation. For example, if there is a person living next door who is affected in this way, action should be taken. If not, I think that it comes down to whether the person is mentally capable (I mean this in a general sense, rather than any possible technical one). If they then choose to live in what you call squalor, that is their decision. (I should point out here that I would rage against failure to offer/provide help when help is needed.)
I do take the point that Morganish's example is fairly extreme. However, I am increasingly worried by the tendency for people who make benignly different choices to be regarded as in need of help. People's reaction to Susan Boyle is a good example of this: apparently it is not OK any longer for a woman not to pluck her eyebrows, and a poster on this MB repeatedly referred to her as 'unkempt', which to me replies a lack of effort and neatness, which didn't seem to be the case.
There are people who are genuinely mentally incapable, and need decisions forced upon them, and there are people who need to be provided with various forms of assistance. But if someone who is mentally capable and has been offered assistance chooses to reject it, and there are not public health etc issues, that is their prerogative.
This is a general point, rather than referring to the specific case that Morganish raises. -
Message 33
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
I don't think the freedom for someone to basically die in their own filth aged 90 is right.聽
I think certainly if it was a relative I would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to leave them to it and not try to intervene. -
Message 34
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Meant to add, I'm sure most of us would not be able to ignore this if it was a relative, partly because of love for that relative, but also because it would reflect badly on us as relatives. My mother is getting increasingly slobby (partly becauses she's always been a bit that way, partly because of her incipient dementia) and uses up more dishes and cutlery in a day than I would have thought possible for one person, and doesn't wash up. I cannot leave her dishes unwashed and her living room floor covered with newspapers and dirty cups and plates, because if anyone came to the house they would think her relatives (me) were neglecting her. They would not think it was her choice.
-
Message 35
Posted by the_shellgrottolady (U2395646) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Absolutely Aunty Molly - quite agree with everything you said.
I am sure you are doing a good job for your mum and keeping her all together.
Mine thankfully is ok - seems to go from strength to strength despite being 80. I guess she's lucky (and me too!)I am aware of that. I would go back to be closer if there was a problem...
Shell -
Message 36
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
Some very interesting and helpful observations, which I thank you for. FAB, you touch on something important, which is that this woman has never really fitted into a broadish definition of 'normality'. As far as I know she studied at Cambridge, worked as a social worker for some years, then chose to live in semi-isolation with animals. She never married, doesn't like children and is quite assertive and challenging. All things that have made her different. I can't imagine her in a residential home.
To answer a couple of practical questions, she gets meals on wheels every day. A couple of brave souls deliver shopping every few days and try to remove uneaten food. The dog is old, stiff but very-much loved and the local vet calls in every couple of weeks.
The refusal to allow us to clear the house out is about control, not I think about mental illness. Her house, her things: she wants a say in what happens to them and it is easier to say no and exercise her power to veto than to deal with the nightmare of sorting stuff. My partner is very similar: he hoards and keeps things that may be useful and doesn't want me chucking anything out. Eccentric, infuriating, but not deserving of the men and women with white coats.
I find myself wondering about this woman, about my MiL who is desperate to go into a home to be waited on hand and foot and about my own later life and death. These are such big issues. I am worried about what will happen to our neighbour in the coming months, but I also understand that she is staying true to herself in many ways. If this is what she wants then perhaps all we can do is endure it with her.
On a slightly different tack, I met someone I know who works for a housing association today. She had just been rung by a tenant in a high-rise flat wanting to know if it was okay to keep chickens in the back bedroom. And a couple of weeks ago she had to supervise the removal of a sheep and a goat from another flat. The tenant downstairs had complained of a funny smell. -
Message 37
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 15th October 2009
OP Morganish
I have read the OP with interest, Morganish. I understand the concern you and those who know the lady have. I once knew a lady in very similar circumstances, except that she had a houseful of cats. They were cared for better than she cared for herself. [And before the cat lovers ask, they were rehoused after their owner died.] As with your lady, the only options was to pull the house down afterwards. She died in her garden-wilderness and was found by the milkman. He was a kindly man who had managed to persuade her to let him leave milk for the cats by the gate each morning, so long as he did not set foot over the threshold. She was not a nice kind old lady, She was an old harridan who chased the local children away with her yard brush! [not that she used the yard brush for its proper purpose.] But somewhere in her past she must have had friends ane people who loved her.
I was just thinking about the time your lady was born, probably going to university just before war was declared. I wonder what she did during the war. War shortages would have made her careful to keep supplies in and collect junk [which might be useful one day.] Somewhere she must have decided animals were better company than humans. -
Message 38
Posted by midnightjasper-at-the-spa-with-her-feet-up-drinking-a-margarita-(till Thursday) (U3278542) on Friday, 16th October 2009
It's odd, isn't it, that it seems to be the stubborn, independent, cantakerous old people who survive.
Think it's time I practiced not being so nice! -
Message 39
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:35 GMT, in reply to Morganish in message 1
General reply:
1. Morganish, you have my sympathies and good luck squaring what you feel is right for you as a caring neighbour and what is right for her. No easy answers, are there?
2. With hindsight from my own experience, I'd leave her there. Can you imagine her in a home, no matter how good, where you are wholly dependent on others and their timetable? I couldn't, and I am no where as independent as she seems to be.
3. The rats are a worry but no suggestions for you.
4. Those of you who remember old ML might remember a thread I started about an elderly former neighbour, widowed and childless and no immediate family in the area, who found herself in hospital after a series of falls. At the time, it seemed obvious to me, to the social workers and to her nephews-in-law who lived 600 km away, if not to the consultant, that it wouldn't be possible for her to continue living in isolation in a small flat without a bathroom, without a washing machine, without a lift and without enough neighbours to look in daily (I could do it once a week or so, but I am never around during school holidays etc.). She was moved back to the city of her birth, to a very nice care home (I visited it) within easy travelling distance for her remaining family. I phoned weekly and planned on going down regularly after my first visit.
There was no second visit as she basically gave up the struggle and died after another fall just before Christmas, a bare four months after having been moved.
Her death haunts me still. Did we make the right decision/only decision? Should I have argued against the move? -
Message 40
Posted by midnightjasper-at-the-spa-with-her-feet-up-drinking-a-margarita-(till Thursday) (U3278542) on Friday, 16th October 2009
EYore, that does seem to be an even more extreme case than the 90 year old neighbour.
Since she was already in hospital after several falls, and was living in the conditions you describe, I don't see how she could have been sent home to live alone. With no-one to look in on her regularly (ie, at least once a day), she could easily have fallen at home, and lain for days, either dead or alive and in pain. At least she was looked after till the end, and was visited by you and by her family. -
Message 41
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Her death haunts me still. Did we make the right decision/only decision? Should I have argued against the move? 聽
She might just have been ready to give up and would have died wherever she was. You have no way of knowing. -
Message 42
Posted by llo (floxd) (U14150545) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Morganish, I think it would be unutterably cruel 鈥 and a bl__dy nerve, too - to force her to go into a hospital or somewhere. Like another poster, I've seen that happen and it was tragic.
I agree with you aboit HER things, HER house, and her right to have control. I've never reached the point where she is, but I know I will, and the thing I would hate most would be to have people invading and takinjg away my control.
I can't see that the 鈥渉oarding鈥 matters 鈥 that's her business and isn't because she's old and helpless, but anyway, it doesn't do her or anyone else any harm, does it?
If I've understood rightly, the two biggest problems arte the rats and the dog-muck and the thrid problem is her incontinence. As she doesn't like the rats, it shouldn't be difficult to get rid of them. You could poison them, but taht7's so horrible and it usually leaves dead rats rotting smellily8 in inaccessible places. You could use traops 鈥 I have no experience of that, but I think it's a bit complictaed and y8ou'd priobably only catch some of them. I think the best way would be to ask some people who have ratting dogs, such a terriers, and who do regularly visit farms and other places to rid them of rats. There are wuite a lot of people who do this and if you ask on a country forum you should be able to find some in your area. You could try here as I know there are several people there and they will know where there are others; also, there's a man who is a professional pest controller. That way, you wouldn't have to get the Cvouncil involved and t7he lady might prefer to have terriers in the house than Council men or other alarming people 鈥 the terriermen and terrierwomen are nearly always very kind and ordinary folk. Her dog might get a bit upset, though, so he might have to be shut in a car or somewhere. It takes them a few hours at most. She might even enjoy it, all the dogs and fun.
That would be one problem solved.
For teh dog-muck, I dom't know, but couldn't you have a rota to go and take the dog out, or just let him out, twice a day? Or is that too difficult? Otherwise perhaps a BIG dirt-tray with earth in it?
For her incontinence, I don't know, except a supply of nappies and a big tub like a hip-bath, depending on how spry she is and whether she'd use it.
I know what it's like, because I had one old friend whom I could only visit for a few minutes at a time, or I would vomit, thereby adding to the stink.
One other thing 鈥 has anyone taken her a bunch of flowers or a flowering plant? because people tend to forget 鈥 they do all the cleaning up and worrying and forget that a bunch of freesias would be a lovely present and would show respect and affection. -
Message 43
Posted by llo (floxd) (U14150545) on Friday, 16th October 2009
P.S. remember Alan Bennett's friend, Miss Shepherd? (Not sure how it's spelt.) Youcould read the book he wrote about her, if you haven't.
-
Message 44
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Friday, 16th October 2009
I can't see that the 鈥渉oarding鈥 matters 鈥 that's her business and isn't because she's old and helpless, but anyway, it doesn't do her or anyone else any harm, does it?聽
It would if it was making her home uninhabitable or dangerous, which I'm not in a position to say it is. But if she is hoarding food than that is what is causing the rats. -
Message 45
Posted by llo (floxd) (U14150545) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Well, Morganish hasn't mentioned 鈥渉oarding鈥 food, but if youlive ina wooden hut in the country, even one crust of bread or one uncleaned plate can attract a rat and one rat brings many more. I lived ina place like that and I've never hoarded food, nor was I at all dirty or untogether at the time, but rats came anyway. They start outside, eating your rubbish before you've taken it to the bin, then they gnaw through things and come inside, then they'll eat soap and electric cable plastic and shoes and just about anything. Very hungry creatures, rats, and versatile and breed a lot.
-
Message 46
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Fascinating thread. Sorry, I'm not going to be of much use having little experience in such things. Did make me tidy up a wee bit mind... I hope when I'm that age I have a cottage and garden to mess up how I like and a vague safety net of concerned folk in the vicinity. (Am specially impressed by the regular vet's visits.) I also like the terrier suggestion for the rat problem, Posh could send Paddy in for the day of his life. Sorry to sound flippant but it sounds like this lady has lived how she wanted to live and shall die how she wants to die if she gets the chance. I'm trying to think of the title of a book I read sometime describing a woman in similar circumstances... there was a dog in that too, it got shot in the end by accident when she tried to shoot someone who was coming to take her from her home. Maybe it'll come to me later. Good book.
-
Message 47
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:26 GMT, in reply to Auntie Molly in message 44
I know the Alan Bennett book and I remember Miss Shepherd being quite potty with her pamphlets and religious tales. My old lady isn't like that at all. In some ways she's quite cold-bloodedly rational. Knows she's not got long to go, values animals more than people, isn't really interested in what anyone else thinks, can't be bothered being polite etc.
We have terriers and have thought about putting them in there to clear the rats, but various people have put down poison and no one is sure where, and we don't want our dogs to eat it, or a poisoned rat. Traps are a possibility, but there are hundreds of rats and it would entail someone going in several times a day to clear the traps.
I am going to try and talk to her about removing all the unwanted/unused food from the cupboards and kitchen to discourage the rats. Trying to keep her and the place clean is difficult. The rats keep chewing through the wiring (even though a lot of it is in metal sleeves) and the immersion heater doesn't work most of the time. Thanks to everyone for helping me think this through. -
Message 48
Posted by Campbell-in-Clogs (U8123405) on Friday, 16th October 2009
This is the book I was half remembering above - shame I gave away a bit of the ending though... -
Message 49
Posted by rainbowLaure (U8486235) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Morganish, I would leave her where she is.
Judging from my mother and some of my friends' parents, removing old people from their familiar surroundings frequently causes some sort of mental shut-down. My mother is physically infirm but has all her mental abilities. However, after being in hospital for 3 days she was flat and unresponsive - took me about 20 minutes nagging and talking before she started to become normal.
Well-meaning kindness often has the opposite effects to what is intended. There are worse things than dirt - even rats, although I wouldn't want to live with them. -
Message 50
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Friday, 16th October 2009
Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:00 GMT, in reply to rainbowLaure in message 49
One thought on the subject of the squalor and germs: at her age, she might well have built up a very strong immune system, so a microbe that might well fell Morganish & other helpers would have no effect on her.
The rats worry me most, frankly.
About this Board
Welcome to the Archers Messageboard.
or 聽to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
This messageboard is now closed.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
主播大秀 iD
主播大秀 navigation
主播大秀 links
主播大秀 漏 2014 The 主播大秀 is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.