Messageboard
The Village Hall聽 permalink
Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.聽
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Welcome to this month鈥檚 Book Club. Everyone is welcome 鈥 all you have to do to join an ML Club or Group is dive in and post.
What do you consider to be the six best novels written in the last 60 years, and why have you chosen them? By 鈥渂est鈥 I mean the most significant or important, rather than the best-loved.
The Times recently published a list of the 60 greatest novels of the last 60 years, based on a compilation of its readers鈥 choices. Despite headlining the piece 鈥淕reatest Books鈥, it is obvious from the accompanying article and the list itself that some people nominated their best read, which is hardly the same thing - I have some much loved books that I can鈥檛 in all honesty say are great novels.
Most of the books listed would be among my choices, too (鈥淣ineteen Eighty-Four鈥, 鈥淭o Kill a Mockingbird鈥 and 鈥淒r. Zhivago for a start). I can see, too, why others such as 鈥淟ove in the Time of Cholera鈥 and Cormac McCarthy鈥檚 鈥淭he Road鈥 made the list though I confess I couldn鈥檛 finish them.
However, I wouldn鈥檛 call Richard Adams鈥 鈥淲atership Down鈥 (a book about rabbits, as Bette so succinctly put it) a great novel. It was and remains a bestseller, was probably the first of its kind to be published, and it has been described as 鈥"mirroring the timeless struggles between tyranny and freedom, reason and blind emotion, and the individual and the corporate state鈥. Is it a great novel though?
What about 鈥淒une鈥 by Frank Herbert? I think this is a sprawling mess of a book. Yes, it won prestigious sci-fi awards and has become something of a cult novel, but is it great?
What about the Harry Potter books, for that matter?
There are some disappointing omissions, too: no Solzhenitsyn, Paul Scott (鈥淭he Raj Quartet鈥), or Gunter Grass (鈥淭he Tin Drum鈥), for instance; no John Updike, Norman Mailer, Philip Roth or William S. Burroughs, either, though I can鈥檛 say I鈥檓 that bothered about their omission.
I think that there is some confusion between the greatest and the best-loved. I鈥檝e chosen what I think are among the most important books which will have lasting relevance.
This is a link to The Times article and list:
I'll be back in a bit with my choices.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 2
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
For links to past Book Club discussions and details of upcoming ones, please see message 89 of the Book Club Rota thread:
F2693944?thread=6187129&latest=1#p87870475Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 3
Posted by Ali-cat (U8666386) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Thanks Rusters, an excellent intro into a fascinating discussion.
Yes, there is a huge difference between 'best' and 'best loved', and my top number one on both lists is 'To Kill A Mockingbird'. On my list also is 'Nineteen Eighty Four', which I quite fancy re-reading again this autumn.
For me, 'The Lord Of The Rings' comes under both headings too, I think this book can be read on so many different levels, and has a direct relevance to the history of the UK in the last 60 years. In writing it Tolkien created a whole world, complete with languages and history, an epic and fascinating creation.
I loved Asimov's 'Foundation' series, another massive epic with a timeline of hundreds of years, and with an invented branch of mathematics called 'psychohistory'. On the list for me.
I wanted to include 'Howard's End' by E M Forster - then I realised it was out of the time-frame! But what a modern book still.
Right, those were my initial thoughts, but off to think somemore, and I really look forward to seeing other people's ideas and contributions.
xx
AliLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 4
Posted by mag_pie (U2678603) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:31 GMT, in reply to Ali-cat in message 3
Hi Rusters and thanks for starting the thread. As Ali says, its a fascinating challenge to distinguish 'best' and 'best loved'. The time frame is also giving me difficulties - anything published 1949 or later? That rules out all of Woolf, Joyce, most of Orwell, Waugh, Forster. The Booker winners will inevitably feature (started 1968). There is also that thorny issue of 'impact' which stresses the minds of academics these days.
Many books have impact but aren't necessarily good writing e.g Satanic Verses. I would also include Lady Chatterley's Lover and Well of Loneliness. Neither are the 'best' fiction nor written in the last 60 years but were published during this period after high profile legal campaigns (Well was banned in 1928 but published again in 1949, LCL was written in 1928, published in 1960 in UK).
I'll need to give this thought, Rusters.
magsLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 5
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:35 GMT, in reply to Ali-cat in message 3
Katherine Anya Seton 1954
It was one of the first adult books I ever read, and started me on reading good historical novels
Dr Zhivago Boris Pasternak 1957 Read in 1965.
Set in a time of extreme troubles, in a huge country, it had a normal size and personal scale, not just the romance, but the struggle for family life.
Excellent Women Barbara Pym 1952
I read this in the 70s when she had been rediscovered. A savage indictment of how parish women behave and how vicars sometimes behave. All in the nicest possible language and taste.
Watership Down Richard Adams 1985
I read this in a very cold winter, while listening to Dvorak鈥檚 Cello Concerto. It was a great book because it relied on rabbit ecology, though it was clearly allegorical.
Durango John B Keane 1995
It ought to be an epic cattle drive in the US. It is a cattle drive in Kerry, and it is full of joy and cleverness. I liked it a lot.
Earthly Joys Phillipa Gregory 1998
About John Tradescant. Great Gardens, famous names, sex and anguish. Read it.
Any list of books designated as "The best" could be pretty disappointing. These are the best for me, because I enjoyed reading them, have reread most of them, and I got a lot out of them.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 6
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
[What do you consider to be the six best novels written in the last 60 years,]
Rusters, if you mean written and not published, then Ninetzeen Eighty-Four doesn't qualify. Especially as the title, IIRC, includes the year of completion, 1948, in reverse. Even based on publication date it's a close-run thing.
I wouldn't include it anyway, by the way.
No Graham Greene, even though his best work was too early for the list? No Sillitoe? Did I miss Faulkner?Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 7
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Hello you three.
Ali, yes "To Kill a Mockingbird" is definitely included in my best, and my best-loved, lists too, as I would guess many other people's.
I've tried many times to get into "The Lord of Rings" but I just can't. However, I loved Asimov's "Foundation" series. It is such a shame that so much science-fiction is side-lined due to snobbery. It was both funny and irritating to hear Margaret Atwood discussing her latest book, "The Year of the Flood" recently on Radio 4. She was doing her best to disassociate her book from being descibed a sci-fi, while making a half-hearted attempt not to diss sci-fi fans.
In a way I think it is a good exercise to restrict our choices to those books written after 1950 (well 1949 I suppose - or, at least after WWII). I do agree about "Howard's End" btw. I've been listening to the Radio 4 dramatisation, which I think is excellent.
mags, I was thinking about the "impact" issue. I can't stand "The Satanic Verses" but would be surprised if it didn't make the long list at least.
As for "Lady Chatterley's Lover", I wonder whether it will stand the test of time, except as a peg to hang a discussion on the social mores and censorship of the time it was was written and the hoo-ha later. I think it is probably Lawrence's worst book, and that is saying something (like his poetry but not his prose).
"Well of Loneliness" is mawkish in the extreme, I think and, of course, had the obligatory tragic ending. Actually,I think rather than banning it, encouraging young gels to read it would have put them off ever thinking of having a lesbian relationship. [Am preparing to duck!]
Rwth,Dr. Zhivago is on my list (which reminds me I ought to get on with it).
I haven't chosen "Watership Down" but I did give serious thought to Adams's "Plague Dogs", about two dogs on the run from an experimental laboratory centre. It was written with passion and certainly made an impact on me but I don't think it made much of a ripple either with critics or the public.
Love Barabra Pym, and at least one of her books has been dramatised on Radio 4, but it it was quite a while ago and can't remember which one.
Thanks to you, I have expanded my reading horizons quite a bit over the months, so shall look out for Durango and Earthy Joys.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 8
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:26 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 7
As has been said up-thread, it is very difficult separating greatest from best-loved. I'm not sure I should be posting in this month's club since I prefer non-fiction to contemporary fiction, but a very rough list on my part:
Love in the Time of Cholera, G. Garcia Marquez, because I think it is his finest novel and because it renewed and revived literature in Spanish and had an enormous impact on other authors, like Berni猫res.
Midnight's Children, S. Rushdie - because he managed to transform English literature and love it or hate it, you cannot forget MC.
The Spy Who Came in From the Cold, J. Le Carr茅 - beautifully written, realistic and yet a compelling thriller, which puts paid to the idea that popular fiction is bad fiction.
The Poisonwood Bible, Barbara Kingsolver - I've never read another book which has made me want to discuss it with others so much nor another book where every person I've discussed it with has a different take on the book & story. Joseph Conrad for modern times.
On the Road, Jack Kerouac - the greatest of all the road novels ever written.
Sword of Honour trilogy, Evelyn Waugh - I don't think it is as good as Brideshead, but Brideshead is just out of the time frame! Still a remarkable elegy for a dying society.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 9
Posted by mag_pie (U2678603) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:27 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 7
Don't worry, Rusters, I won't throw the book at you.
I'm not suggesting Well, Lady Chatterley or Satanic Verses get into the list, just pondering on the different definitions of "significant or important". Best is a very subjective view. I'm not a literary critic so can't judge excellence in fiction; I just know what I like.
Ursula K LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness is the only one I'm certain of including in my shortlist at the moment.
I know what I don't like, too, and shall flounce if anyone suggest an Amis, either Amis.
mags
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 10
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I suppose we'll have to go by the publishing date, OB. It's on my list (see below) and I aint gonna change it now!
No Graham Greene - I hadn't noticed and I am surprised at the omission. Can't see Sillitoe or Faulkner either.
What do you consider to be Greene's best books then? I've only read a few, but think "The Heart of the Matter" (1948!), and the later "The Quiet American", "Our Man In Havana"and "The Burnt Out Case", qualify as great books.
Good heavens, I've just realised I've never read "The Third Man".
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 11
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
These are my six choices. They are not necessarily books I love, but I think they are all both well-written (insofar as I can judge) and have an enduring impact.
鈥淣ineteen Eighty-Four鈥 by George Orwell. This isn't on my most-loved list, as it is a cold and umcomfortable book. However, it has haunted me ever since I first read it as a teenager. I think it is the best dystopian novel ever written and definitely among the top ten of great novels generally. Can anyone read it these days and not feel even just the slightest unease?
鈥淭o Kill a Mockingbird鈥 by Harper Lee. This novel, about the trial of a black youth for the rape of a white girl in the Deep South of the US, is a classic which, like 鈥淣ineteen Eighty-Four鈥, has stood the test of time. Clive Stafford Smith, said that "Mockingbird" 鈥 or, rather its protagonist Atticus Finch 鈥 was a major influence on his becoming a human rights lawyer, as it was for many of his colleagues.
鈥淭he Raj Quartet鈥 (okay, this is four novels in one volume) by Paul Scott. The books are set in India in the dying days of the Raj, and in particular take an unflinching look at the British as their rule comes to an end. Maybe I am prejudiced because my parents knew an elderly British couple who were convinced that they had been used as the basis for two characters in 鈥淪taying On鈥.
鈥淏irdsong鈥 by Sebastian Faulks. This novel, set largely during WWI, paints a vivid and harrowing picture of life in the trenches, as experienced by two very different soldiers. I think it is by far the best of Faulks鈥檚 books. In fact, I think his others have been disappointing, and I haven鈥檛 even bothered to read his James Bond book 鈥淒evil May Care鈥.
鈥淎 Thousand Splendid Suns鈥 by Khaled Hosseini. It follows the lives of two women from different generations in Kabul during the last decades the twentieth century. I found it fascinating to read a book by someone who, though he has lived in the West for most of his adult life, grew up in Afghanistan and knows it so well. The women are sympathetically depicted (unlike those in his first novel "The Kite Runner") and the book helped me understand (I hope) more of this troubled counry.
鈥淒r. Zhivago鈥 by Boris Pasternak. The book follows one man, Dr. Z, through his experiences of the Russian Revolution and Civil War, from a life of privilege to one of poverty and restriction. It also tells of his love for two very different women: his wife and the love of his life Lara. I acknowledge that Solzhenitsyn鈥檚 books are more *important*. However, Pasternak does paint a dramatic picture of life in those turbulent times in a more accessible way (for many people) than does Solzhenitsyn, imo.
The writers aren't really comparable, I realise, except in the broadest sense.
No doubt I shall want to change some of my choices as soon as I've posted.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 12
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
From those books on the list, in no particular order, my favourites are:
Catcher in the Rye
Smiley's People
Grapes of Wrath
One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest
Trainspotting
Lolita or Get Shorty
Though I must add that I think other books by le Carr茅, Welsh and Nabakov / Leonard are btter than the ones of theirs on the list.
Re The Third Man: although writing at it very best, it's more of a screeplay than a novel, which is perhaps why the film is so wonderful, best film ever IHO. I tink the GG book I most ejoyed was Brighton Rock - much too early for this list of course.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 13
Posted by mag_pie (U2678603) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:18 GMT, in reply to oldbloke2 in message 12
My initial choices are:
Toni Morrison, Beloved: the novel which really dramatised the black American experience, far, far more than Roots and much better written. It was a hard choice between this and Alice Walker's Colour Purple.
Nabokov, Lolita: He may have written better novels but this is such a gripping story.
Alan Paton, Cry, the Beloved Country: According to Wikipedia this was published in Dec 1948 but we know how wrong they can be It deserves to squeak in.
Pat Barker, Regeneration (trilogy): the story of WWI for me, written through the eyes of a psychiatrist treating Siegfried Sassoon and others.
Edmund White, A Boy's Own Story: the original modern coming out novel.
Ursula K LeGuin, Left Hand of Darkness: challenges political indoctrination, prejudice, gender roles and climate change, all in one great SF novel.
mags
PS My choices would be very different if it was the last 100 years. I can't include Colette!Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 14
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
E. Yore, I know what you mean about contemporary fiction, the books coming out now, at least. I haven't even liked Margaret Atwood's or Hilary Mantel's latest. Doesn't seem that long ago that I couldn't wait to read the latest book reviews and dive into every book shop looking for the latest releases.
"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold" is probably Le Carre's best, but I actually prefer his "A Perfect Spy", which is said to be partly autobiographical (the relationship Magnus Pym had with his father, for instance).
Haven't read "The Poisonwood Bible", but it has been mentioned several times in ML over the months, and is on my list to read. Have you read the reviews on Barbara Kingsolver's latest book "Lacuna", btw?
mags, couldn't agree more about the Amises, pere et fils. It's amazing how many people think one or both wondeful though; almost invariably men I think.
Funny, I hadn't thought about "Cry the Beloved Country" for years, and now this is the second time it has been mentioned in ML this week. My sister chose it for her book discussion group last year, and no one else there had ever heard of it.
I was agonising over "The Left Hand of Darkness" as well as Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale". Can't think why one or other didn't get onto my list really.
Quite apart from the merits of the writing, "Lolita" always generates controversy because of its subject matter, so I suppose that goes to "impact". I confess I haven't read it. Don't know if the (original) film is faithful to the book, but I thought it was excellent. Oh, except for Peter Sellers, who I thought jarred almost as much as Stephen Fry's policeman in "Gosford Park".
OB, when it comes to Steinbeck and Le Carre it would be easier just to choose *them*, rather than have to nominate a book.
"The Grapes of Wrath" is definitely a masterpiece, imo, but then many of his books were. I loved his novella "When The Moon Is Down", but it doesn't seem to be that well-known.
As for Le Carre, I'd say just about all his books are brilliant with the glaring exception of "The Little Drummer Girl". I could hardly believe he was the author.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 15
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Lucky Jim
Catch 22
The First Circle
Sword of Honour Trilogy (even though it's really 3)
A Confederacy of Dunces
Saturday Night and Sunday Morning
All great novels, some of them ground breaking and if you want a great Graham Greene novel published in the last sixty years what about The Quiet American, I think I'll swap it for Sillitoe?
Is The Road really a novel? Certainly one of the most over hyped books ever.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 16
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:46 GMT, in reply to Reggie Trentham in message 15
Sorry Reggie and the other men who choose the Amises. They are laddish in the extreme.
Can you explain why "Lucky Jim" apart from the laddishness is a great novel?
Sword of Honour is just extremely funny, so deserves to be in the list.
No, sorry Reggie, I don't mean to impugn your choices. They are as valid as everyone else's, but why are the Amises any good at all? Please explain.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 17
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I agree on A Perfect py, Rusters. I think if you were doing a class on writing a novel the opening pages of A Perfect Spy would definitely be one of the exemplary texts to use. Pace, characterisation, creation of anticipation, creative language - it's got the lot. Also Graham Greene for different rasons. I think it's his economy and effectiveness with language rather than his virtuosity. And intellectually he is superior to le Carr茅 I think.
PS I liked The Tailor of Panama too.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 18
Posted by bloomincross (U14025848) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
when you think of it, rusters, what a rubbish 60 years it's been for anglophone fiction, and poetry. i can think of no more than 4 writers who in any serious way measure up to the dickens/dostoevsky standard of greatness, all russians: solzhenitsyn, valery grossman, valentin rasputin, konstantin simonov. waugh, bellow, mailer, all those dreary women-scribes, nabokov, pasternak, steinbeck..middle-brow dross, utterly inconsequential.
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 19
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Nineteen Eighty-Four.
Room at the Top [or Lucky Jim or Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner]
Dr Zhivago
Pillars of the Earth
a good entry in the historical novel genre and a favourite of mine.
The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe
it was going to be either Narnia or LOTR. The Hobbit, being publshed in 1937, is too early.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 20
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I see we were asked to give workings.
I can still remember the first time I read Lucky Jim. I think I did it in one sitting. It's one of those books that you know is absolutely outstanding and will remain a classic just in the first few pages. Apart from that it contains some of the greatest examples of comic writing you could possibly want to read (Jim's drunken lecture for example).
Kingsley Amis is (imo) possibly the best English novelist of the latter half of the Twentieth Century but, for some reason, now eclipsed by his vastly inferior son.
I know Catch 22 isn't to everybodys' taste but it has given a phrase to the English language and it's one of the best war books that has been written.
I think Solzhenitsyn is rather over rated generally he wrote several good books and one great book, and what a book. Tells you more even than Victor Serge about Stalinist Russia.
Evelyn Waugh is just the best writer in the English language of the Twentieth century, he can do anything comedy, character, plot, romance and (imo) this is his best book, better than Brideshead.
A Confederacy of Dunces is another comic novel (bit of a theme here) and apart from having a remarkable publishing history - the author's mum took the manuscript along to a New Orleans English professor and more or less forced him to read it - it's a thoroughly good read and has one absolutely superb character.
Graham Greene is one of the most astute writers on politics (the Confidential Agent for instance) and the Quiet American is incredibly precient when you consider the US's later involvement in Vietnam. Rates second only to Waugh for me.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 21
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 18:12 GMT, in reply to bloomincross in message 18
when you think of it, rusters, what a rubbish 60 years it's been for anglophone fiction, and poetry. i can think of no more than 4 writers who in any serious way measure up to the dickens/dostoevsky standard of greatness, all russians: solzhenitsyn, valery grossman, valentin rasputin, konstantin simonov. waugh, bellow, mailer, all those dreary women-scribes, nabokov, pasternak, steinbeck..middle-brow dross, utterly inconsequential.聽
You've read all of it? Really? Can you name your personal judgement of the 6 best novels of the last 60 years or do you just want to sit on the wall and throw things?Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 22
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
In reply to Rusters in message 1
It is extraordinarily difficult to sort out 'best' (as in influential) from the ones one enjoyed most, and we are talking mainly about books written in English anyway. I haven't even read many of those on the list! My first 6 choices would be (at time of writing):
- Grapes of Wrath (I would have chosen 'Of Mice and Men' but can't because it was written earlier).
- Lord of the Rings (for the idea of creating a fantasy world, with all the appendices)
- 1984
- Catch 22 (such a catchy title)
- Lord of the Flies (timeless, IMO)
- The Old Man and the Sea (ditto, and so perfectly written)Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 23
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I don't think anyone will be offended if you question their choices - as Reggie's reply shows.
When I read Lucky Jim for the first time I thought it was hilarious. Now I can still see why it was funny but I don't find it funny any more. Martin Amis is brilliant with words but crap at books. IMHO.
Solzhenitsyn was a political tool. He outlived his usefulness and has sunken into the obscurity he deserves. His "facts" about Stalinism are even more inventive than his fiction. But he really blotted his copy book with his anti-semitism.
Two of my best chums rate Waugh so much so that I re-read his stuff a couple of years ago. Rancid.
One of the reasons why I rate le Carr茅 so highly is that he perseveres with the political novel in an age when history is supposed to have ended. Even Kureishi seems to have given up. His last book was, IMHO, rubbish.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 24
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
oldbloke, Solzhenitsyn and Waugh were reactionary old god botherers, so was Greene if you look at his public pronouncements rather than his books, but if you judge a person's work by his life outside his art you loose a huge amount of literature, music and art.
Waugh writes brilliantly about the British (actually English) upper classes and he does it with wit and humour. His opinions may be rancid and the lives of his characters may be too but that doesn't lessen his genius.
I said that I thought that slzhenitsyn is over-rated, and his reputation really rest on his anti-communism rather than the merits of his witing. But he's a novelist so he doesn't deal in 'facts', he deals in 'truth' and I just think the prison for specially privileged but still undoubtedly 'fascist' prisoners tells a truth about the twisted nature of Russian under Stalin.
Amis (senior) was another old reactionary, although not a god botherer as far as I know. I rarely re-read books but I did read Lucky Jim again recently and it still made me laugh. But as far as I'm concerned it's only the high point of a great body of work whick, again, tells you a lot about a certain stratum of society. Martin's rubbish though.
le Carre's good I agree, but not a great novelist. It's a pity that Eric Ambler's outside this period. Best representative of the genre ever (imo) and on the right side politically too.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 25
Posted by Elnora Cornstalk (U5646495) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I've been turning my choices over and over, but are we allowed to stretch the 60 years? I keep seeing 'The Grapes of Wrath' on lists (published 1939), and am not sure whether I want the answer 'yes' or 'no'. The former would reduce the options slightly, I suppose. Oh dear.... So many.
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 26
Posted by pahnda (U6794915) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
A Prayer for Owen Meaney
Waterland
Love in the Time of Cholera
Remains of the Day
Life After God
Cat's Eye
Oops, no Ian McEwan!Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 27
Posted by bloomincross (U14025848) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
rwth - jean rhys "sargasso sea", william faulkner "go down, moses", thomas mann "dr. faustus", victor astafiev "the jolly soldier", stefan zweig "mary stuart", truman capote "in cold blood". i win.
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 28
Posted by Ali-cat (U8666386) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
'Cloud Atlas' by David Mitchell. Going on the list.
This is a gem of a book, in fact it's a string of gems. Initially I thought I wasn't going to enjoy it, but by the third story I was so glad I had persevered. All the stories hang together, even though they are set in different times (from the 18th Century to a far distant time), and written in different styles. The fact that these stories are all linked despite the completely different scenarios is a true gift to the reader. At the end, I was left breathless. I am saving it for a couple of years, and then I shall re-read.
Other books already mentioned above are on my list - John le Carre's unbeatable spy stories, 'The Handmaid's Tale' by Margaret Atwood. On the subject of MA I am sorry to have missed her interview, and it's a shame she is a bit coy about SciFi, it's a very respectable genre with a host of brilliant minds contributing some splendid books.
On the subject of SciFi Rusters, did you ever get to read Andrew Stephenson's 'Wall of Years'? It might get onto my list.
xx
AliLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 29
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Surley Howard Fast's Spartacus should be on the list too?
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 30
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
If I were going to have Howard Fast I think I'd have Power, which google tells me wasn't published until 1962 surprisingly (I thought it was much earlier). I think Fast's novel, Spartacus, is completely overshadowed by the Kubrick film.
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 31
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I'm not judging anybody outside their art, Reggie. I don't know why you imply that I am.
Our views ae subjective and it may well be the case that "Waugh writes brilliantly about the British (actually English) upper classes and he does it with wit and humour." I personally don't want to read about that. I think a writer would have to do rather more than that to earn the "genius" label. What strikes me most about Waugh is his supercilious, snobbish dismissive tone. That puts me off.
My point about Solzhenitsyn is that he would never have achieved that massive international celebrity status on the merits of his books. If he hadn't been so useful in the Cold War we'd never have heard of him. It was of course Khruschev who promoted him in the first place. I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of Stalinism but I don't think that Solzhenitsyn contributed to "Truth" unless you think that people like Robert Conquest, for esxample, also do so in a different way. I don't.
I don't expect or even want a novelist to conform to my political views. I go elsewhere for that. Of a great novelists I want to be made aware of ways of seeing human relationships that hadn't previoulsy occurred to me. In a good novelist I want to read of such relationships presented in a dramatic, entertaining and believable (if only in terms of the novel) way.
There are some novels on the list I wouldn't personaly regard as "good." That has nothing to do with their politics. They just don't work for me.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 32
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
The Howard Fast book I enjoyed most was probably Freedom Road, which, as far as I know, hasn't been filmed. At least I don't know the film. The Last Frontier is also very powerful and the great film Cheyenne Autumn was based on it of course. Both books were too early for our list - might fit in better with the Neglected Classics thread in TB.
When I praised le Carr茅 for sticking to the political novel it was not on the assumption that he is pushing a particular political line. Just that he writes such novels in a very intelligent and gripping way. I don't know if he is a "great" novelist, but he is stylistically brilliant and is a magnificent story teller.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 33
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Tagging on.
Incidentally, the list referred to in the OP includes 'Revolutionary Road' by Richard Yates, which is the TVH 'Book of the Month' in January.
Just thought I'd plug it!Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 34
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:21 GMT, in reply to bloomincross in message 27
i win.聽
When you share your honest specific opinion with us, we all win. I haven't read any of those, but I am vaguely interested in "Mary Stuart", so I may give it a try.
I did start "Wide Sargasso Sea" but it did seem to get becalmed near the beginning, so I gave up, before a quarter of the way through. I may try again, starting in the middle, then go back to the beginning if it seems worth it. I did try one of William Faulkner's books but got choked by the dust, but if you recommend "Go Down Moses", there should be some baptism in it to dampen it down a bit, so I'll try that too.
Thanks a lot.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 35
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:25 GMT, in reply to Reggie Trentham in message 30
If I were going to have Howard Fast I think I'd have Power, which google tells me wasn't published until 1962聽
I particularly like "The Hessian" by Howard Fast, which gave a lot of mileage to the moral dilemma of whether or not you hide and protect the enemy.
I am Spartacus.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 36
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Reggie, I do find Cormac McCarthy difficult, and haven't read "The Road". However, having seen the film "No Country for Old Men", I read the book on which it is based, and was completely blown away by it (pun almost intended).
It is incredibly bleak - a lament for the loss of old values (not that they couldn't be rough), replaced by a culture of drugs, greed, casual brutality and ruthless violence.
"Catch 22" seems to be one of those books that people either love or hate. I thought it was savagely funny and I'm glad it has been mentioned here and in The Times list.
Eric Ambler didn't die all *that* long ago, but apparently his heart wasn't in writing spy novels set during the cold war, and more or less gave up, especially after the sixties. Shame because according to a programme about him not long ago, Le Carre (among others), rated him highly and said he had been an influence on his writing.
sj, two of Ken Follett's books get a mention: "The Pillars of the Earth" and "World Without End", neither of which I have read. I connect him with thrillers, often set during WWII (e.g., "Eye of the Needle"). I shall definitely be looking out for his historical novels now.
"Room at the Top" and "The Lonelineness of the Long Distance Runner" are more familiar to me as films - and very good they are too.
Good to see another vote for "1984", Bette. I cannot stand Hemingway usually, but I did like "The Old Man and the Sea". Maybe it's because it was one of his later books, and he'd mellowed a bit.
Re the title "Catch 22", I remember reading/hearing that Heller was going to call the book "Catch 18", but Leon Uris had just had his book "Mila 18" published. Catch 18 just doesn't have the same ring, does it?!
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 37
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Reggie, I do find Cormac McCarthy difficult, and haven't read "The Road".聽
Actually, Rusters the book I meant to refer to was E.Yore's choice 'On the Road' (Kerouac) which on re-reading is incredibly tame and unadveturous judged by today's standards.
I must confess that I've never heard of 'The Road' or Cormac McCarthy.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 38
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Good heavens, Elnora, of course "The Grapes of Wrath" was written earlier. The Times got it wrong and I suppose I accepted it, thinking it was just that it was *set* pre-War. Although I've read quite a few of his books, the latest was "Cannery Row", published in 1946.
Well, if a national newspaper can get it wrong, then I don't see why you can't have it as one of your six choices.
pahnda [coaxingly], why not drop "Cat's Eye" and have an Ian McEwan instead? Much as I like most of Margaret Atwood, I heartily loathed "Cat's Eye". Now if you'd gone for her "The Blind Assassin", "The Handmaid's Tale", or even "The Robber Bride", I'd have been with you all the way.
I've only just read "A Prayer for Owen Meany" and loved it. Although John Irving has his own style, you never quite know what you are going to get with his books.
Thanks for your list, bloomincross. We can definitely agree about "Wide Sargasso Sea" and "In Cold Blood". (Although, when my sister had to study the Jean Rhys book and roped me in for discussion, I was driven almost mad with having to listen to her deconstructing it. Nearly put me off the book for good.)
Ali, thanks for the reminder. My library tried to find a copy of "The Wall of Years" but in the end came back with a no. As it is out of print I'll have to do some surfing and hope to be able to get hold of a copy.
I know you like good sci-fi so what did you make of "The Time Traveller's Wife"?
Bette, you'll be glad to know that yesterday I put in a reservation at the library for "Revolutionary Road". Just about all the other books by Richard Yates were on the shelves but not that one. The film is on the back catalogue of FilmFlex Pay-per-view too, so I'll get stuck in soon. If I love the book I'll go on to buy it, otherwise will get it out of the library again in the New Year.
Look forward to discussing it in January.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 39
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Reggie, if you get the chance, do watch/read "No Country for Old Men".
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 40
Posted by Elnora Cornstalk (U5646495) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
That's extremely kind of you, Rusty, but I think I'll try to keep within bounds. It's going to take some time nevertheless. 'Go Down, Moses' will have to go down too: published 1942. What a shame that Faulkner's best work was long done before 1959; but it frees up space if I can delete him. (By the way, Bette, wonderful though GDM is, if you want to get into Faulkner in a less stressful way, I know it suited some friends to start with 'The Unvanquished'. It's a Civil War story sequence, but related much more directly and with a lot of humour.)
One high on my list for magical language would be Louise Erdrich. Her novels are all interlinked, but I'll probably keep 'Love Medicine' (her revised, longer version, 1993). All those Chippewa/American voices, talking across the generations, and bringing in every emotional note, have a vision and warmth, that I don't find in McCarthy. I'm also wondering about Bobbie Ann Mason's 'In Country' - a simple road story, ending at the Vietnam Memorial, and no less a war story because it's told through the eyes of the veteran's teen-age niece. Eudora Welty's 'The Optimist's Daughter' would be there for its comedy, sanity and for the most moving exploration of memory, loss and age I know. EW talked about how a 'sheltered life' could be a life of 'great daring' too, and she captures this perfectly.
Back later when I've thought some more.
ElnoraLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 41
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I don't think that Solzhenitsyn contributed to "Truth" unless you think that people like Robert Conquest, for example, also do so in a different way. I don't.聽
Robert Conquest is, or at least purports to be a historian., Solzhenitsyn is a novelist. Historians deal in facts, novelists deal in truth. That's the distiction I was trying to make.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 42
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
I have seen No Country For Old Men, Rusters. A very good film than could have been great if it hadn't petered out towards the end. Didn't really know it was based on a book though but it doesn't make me inclined to read it because, generally, only bad books make good films (imo).
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 43
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:02 GMT, in reply to Reggie Trentham in message 41
Historians deal in truth as well. Perhaps the one thing the historians who taught me agreed on was that there is no such thing as a fact. Thucydides pointed out while describing the Peloppenaean War, that two historians standing next to each other would describe the action differently. So different that they might easily disagree on the final outcome.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 44
Posted by One (U8211650) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
two historians standing next to each other would describe the action differently. So different that they might easily disagree on the final outcome.聽
As good a definition as any of why historians don't deal in 'truth'.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 45
Posted by Ali-cat (U8666386) on Sunday, 1st November 2009
Hi Rusters
I thoroughly enjoyed 'The Time Traveller's Wife' and would love to re-read it. Yes, it could go on my list, but maybe I'll re-read it first. I believe it's a film now, and I have the old dilemma again, 'cos so often I love a book and hate the film. However, I shall buy the DVD and give it a go, when it's released.
I think one of the very few 'books into films' that I have enjoyed is, again, 'To Kill A Mockingbird' with Gregory Peck as Atticus. Excellent film.
Do try and get the Andrew Stephenson, I would so like to hear your opinion of it. When I re-read it last summer I found that I had remembered quite a lot of it wrongly - and yet the overall impression of a book excellently written was an accurate one.
xxLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 46
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 2nd November 2009
Ali and Reggie, I think it is generally the case that good books make bad films and vice versa. There are honourable exceptions though: think not only of Harper Lee, but Graham Greene, John Fowles, Elmore Leonard and Nabokov, for instance.
(Now wondering whether there would be mileage in a Film Club discussion on films based on books.)
"The Wall of Years" looks a long and complex book, Ali, so not surprising you remembered some of it wrongly if there was a long gap between reads. I'll give you a shout when I've read it.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 47
Posted by Ali-cat (U8666386) on Monday, 2nd November 2009
Hi Rusty
Yes, indeed, a thread about 'the film of the book' would be an interesting and provoking one. I remember reading 'About Schmidt' after seeing the film, and being absolutely amazed at the total change made in the story for the film version. However, I could hear Jack Nicholson's voice throughout the book - excellent casting.
Not on my list of books, though.
AliLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 48
Posted by Eilis (U11273736) on Monday, 2nd November 2009
I'm not really into lists but if I were I'd have some John McGahern or William Trevor in that one.
Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 49
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 2nd November 2009
I've not read or seen "About Schmidt", Ali, though I vaguely remember the film reviews. Having just looked up both book and film, I can't say they'd be on any list of mine either, frankly.
eilis, I don't know John McGahern, but I love William Trevor, ever since I heard one of his books, "The Story of Lucy Gault" read (or was it dramatised - read I think) on Radio 4 a few years back. He is one of the few people whose short stories I enjoy too.
RustyLink to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
-
Message 50
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Monday, 2nd November 2009
Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:56 GMT, in reply to mag_pie in message 4
Woolf, Joyce, most of Orwell, Waugh, Forster.聽
Hmmm, yes, hat's my problem too, Mags. "Greatest Modern Novels" to me includes:
To the Lighthouse
The Waves
Portrait of the Artist (I find that more interesting & productive of other work than Ulysses)
Sword of Honour trilogy
THe Good Soldier (a completely overlooked & underrated gem)
and a lot of Hemingway
And the 20C for me is also not legible without poetry: Pound, Eliot, Larkin & Auden, particularly.Link to this forum: Nov. Book Club: Your Six Greatest Modern Novels
About this Board
Welcome to the Archers Messageboard.
or 聽to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
This messageboard is now closed.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
主播大秀 iD
主播大秀 navigation
主播大秀 links
主播大秀 漏 2014 The 主播大秀 is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.