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This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by happyjazzbaby-no longer funny (U14072874) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Many years before she died, my mother told us she wished to be cremated.
We are Jewish but not Orthodox and none of us had had any experience or knowledge of how to arrange such a funeral.
My father eventually sorted the details and the ceremony went ahead.
Afterwards Dad said he would like his funeral to be held in the same way and nine years later, I made similar arrangements for him.
I vaguely remembered hearing of peoples' ashes being scattered in a favourite place and the odd 'humerous' tale of someone's ashes being kept on the mantlepiece but it never entered my head to ask for them in either event.
Nor can I remember even being asked if I wished to take them away.
All this happened in the UK, (BTW I live in Australia), more than forty years ago so I have no way of rectifying this now but I wonder if someone can tell me,
Firstly, Is it considered really awful or disrespectful to not claim them?
And secondly. What happens to unclaimed ashes and how do the Crematoria dispose of them?
Strangely these questions have grown in importance and in proportion to the passing of my own years and I am greatly troubled by yet another thing I might/should have done for my parents and didn't.
H/FJBLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 2
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Hi HFJB. I certainly wouldn't think it was disrepectful not to collect the ashes. Many people's ashes are actually interred at the Crematorium itself. I don't really know what the procedure is as far as collecting them, as my mother did it and didn't even tell me where she had scattered my Father's ashes until I asked her. My MiL, on the other hand, had another full church service and had the ashes of my FiL interred in a plot in the churchyard.
Different people do different things. For myself, I don't really mind what is done with my remains - I will let my children know that it's up to them. There really wouldn't be any point in having a religious ceremony for me.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 3
Posted by Doodlysquat (U13738858) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Hello HJB...as far as I am aware if ashes are not claimed they are scattered in the garden of remembrance at the crematorium.
suzeLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 4
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
For both my father and mother, we had the ashes interred at the church, and we have a plastic urn (looks so stylish...) with half of Mum's, which will be scattering at a date yet to be decided at the place we scattered the other half of Dad's. But we knew that up front and had asked the undertaker how we went about it.
(I don't think you can always scatter ashes without permission, depends where it is.)
It may be worth asking the undertaker (It was the undertaker with us, rather than the crem, but then we knew they'd be coming back, and they kept them until the stone was ready, and we interred them then.) I know with Dad's, they kept half for a couple of years, as we couldn't scatter them initially because of foot & mouth restrictions, and then we just took some time sorting it out. Anyway, I got the impression that it wasn't that long a time compared with some.
It may depend according to area/undertaker/what you said at the time. But the easiest way to find out is to ask - don't worry about doing that, it's the sort of thing they'll be asked quite often.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 5
Posted by La Sharpissima (U1476061) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
My firm is currently acting on the purchase of premises currently used as an Undertaker's premises. There is a room chock full of urns where relatives have not collected the ashes, going back many years. I gather that they will just be thrown away as they were not collected within a certain period.
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Message 6
Posted by San Fairy Anneâ„¢ (U14092798) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:57 GMT, in reply to La Sharpissima in message 5
I scattered Mum's ashes in our Burial Ground and I had to hand over the piece of paper which was affixed to the box to the Friend who keeps such records. The significance is that I therefore take it that there is an archive record of what has taken place. I expect the Crematorium has to have a similar record of what was done with any unclaimed ashes, which may be something like 'Passed to the Funeral Director X' so you should be able to follow the trail. Might end up in Sharper's area! HTH SFAnneâ„¢Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 7
Posted by sweetfeet (U3064123) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
My FiL was an undertaker all his life.
It was odd burying him actually, but that's by the by.
I have no doubt whatever, that he would have taken unclaimed ashes and scattered them somewhere he deemed appropriate.
Half way up a Welsh mountain would be my bet.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 8
Posted by La Sharpissima (U1476061) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
That makes sense SFA and I assume that when the funeral is arranged (the only one I have been involved in arraging, that of my father, was a burial* not a cremation so I don't know) the contract with the Undertaker will give the relatives/executors a certain period of time to collect the ashes after which it will be upto the Undertaker to dispose of them. I don't think there is anything disrespectful at all in not collecting them, the dead person hopefully lives on in people's hearts and memories and what is left in either a coffin or an urn is just earthly remains, not the real person. My opinion anyway.
*This giving the opportunity for my ankle to turn as we followed the coffin from church to grave leaving me sprawling over the churchyard. Elegant or wot?Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 9
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Happy, I know what you mean about reconsidering things as years go by. You all did what your father wanted for his funeral. You have kept him in your hearts in the years since. As others have said, probably the ashes were scattered in a garden of remembrance. Not sure about Australian flowers; crematoriums in UK seem to favour red rose bushes.] The crem. would have a book of remembrance too: did you check that out?
Can I just add a general comment, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record. Elsethread a while back we had a simlar topic about scattering ashes. The deseased may leave a request that his/her ashes are scattered in a place special to them. Bear in mind you may need permission to do this in a public place. Check with the undertaker.
The ashes are just the remains of the body. The spirit of the person lives on in the heats of thsoe who loved them.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 10
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
heats? sorry, 'hearts'.
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Message 11
Posted by ThisLizzie (U5294918) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Hello happyjazzbaby-no longer funny,
>These questions have grown in importance and in proportion to the passing of my own years <
I fully understand this and would suggest that you e-mail the crematorium concerned and simply ask the question. They will be very used to this sort of enquiry and will be able to settle your mind once and for all.
Good luck and please come back and tell us what happened.
LizzieLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 12
Posted by Celtic Tiger (U2229153) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
I don't think it is disrespectful not to have claimed the ashes. Both my parents were cremated (their wish, not mine - I'd much rather have had a burial.) and I did nothing about the ashes. As Sharpers says, they live on in my heart.
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Message 13
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
My aunt had her ashes put under the cross at the church where she worhsipped. My dad asked to go there to as being as close to a family plot as we had (his mum had gone there as well). When my mum died she wanted to be with dad so .... we interred her ashes on the Sunday before New Year
About 6 months later I got a call from the undertaker wanting to know when I would collect my mum's ashes. The first thought that went through my head was "so who is with my dad" and the second was "the vicar is going to go ballistic if we have to try and recover those ashes". So with some amusement I asked who I had been given and put with my dad some months previously. But you haven't had any ashes mrs smith says undertaker. But I am not Mrs Smith I says. Oh ber says undertaker - I am so sorry. Not to worry says I - have sense of humour even if it is a little dark
GLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 14
Posted by Adaptery (with brackets) (U13803003) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Ashes can be scattered at the crem or the undertaker will take them and hang on to them until you decide what to do - FIL's undertaker said they have some for many years!
I must admit that I thought once you were cremated that was it but you are left wondering what to do with the remains of the remains! My in-laws are both interred in the family hold-all under the desk coz we can't think of the right thing to do with them!Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 15
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
In reply to happyjazzbaby-no longer funny in message 1
Thought-provoking thread.
Made me think - I know where my mother's and her father's ashes were strewn, but that is as far as it goes for relations (don't even know where my father's ashes are).
As has been said upthread, the memory of the person lives on in those that knew them.
Our cat's ashes are still in a little box from the vet (marked 'cat') on our mantle-piece. Hmm, meant to bury it sometime, but we never seem to get round to it. It doesn't mean we don't think about her from time-to-time.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 16
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
FiL kept MiL [ashes of] in the bottom of the wardrobe for two years.
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Message 17
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
I live right next to a crematorium and sometimes walk in the grounds. I have always assumed that ashes are scattered in the beautiful garden (where there are benches and often floral tributes) if people dont take them to a special place. I could of course be totally wrong.
We are RC and so get buried not cremated. My mums mum who wasnt a Catholic wanted to be cremated. My mum now wishes that they had kept her ashes to put in my grandads grave as we have nowhere to go to "visit" her like we can with all the rest of our family who are all in the same cemetery.
I hope you manage to sort it out.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 18
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:51 GMT, in reply to La Sharpissima in message 5
My firm is currently acting on the purchase of premises currently used as an Undertaker's premises. There is a room chock full of urns where relatives have not collected the ashes, going back many years. I gather that they will just be thrown away as they were not collected within a certain period.Ìý
With respect, wouldn't it be kinder to bury them all on site in the foundations of whatever building will be erected in its place and a small but tasteful plaque describing what is there and when it was done and why. Then anyone who did not claim out of ignorance or grief will not have this question worrying them in future.
With my mother, she was cremated and the undertaker took the ashes and we had an interment of those next to my father's grave about a fortnight later. It would prbably have been better just to have the burial, but if that's what she wanted...
The undertaker for MiL was very informative. He said that scattering of ashes by an undertaker was a lot more complicated than the next of kin doing it. So we had a nice little urn sitting in the hall for about a year, then O/H had a day out and scattered them in a place she well loved. I do know where, but just in case it's not allowed, I'm not saying.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 19
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) ** on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:03 GMT, in reply to happyjazzbaby-no longer funny in message 1
My parents want to be buried in the family plot - I'll be cremated, but haven't thought about my ashes.
I might talk to my OH and children about it, see if they've any strong feelings, otherwise the crematorium can dispose of them with no ceremony.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 20
Posted by Hebe (U1477254) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
it is worth thinking about - the disposal of ashes has caused some bad feelings in my family, and also some stress in trying to chose a suitable place that suits everyone. It was easiest when there was a grave to have opened for the ashes to be interred in (the grave was the husband's).
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Message 21
Posted by happyjazzbaby-no longer funny (U14072874) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
I'm very grateful to all of you for taking the time to reply.
It seemed, at the time , to be more appropriate to have them both cremated as I am too far away to either visit or maintain a grave and have no siblings or close relatives( They all felt I was doing the wrong thing anyway) who might have done so for me.
So, interrment of the ashes would have presented the same problem. A neglected burial plot seems so sad to me.
I now live close to Sydney's biggest Cemetery and often drive through.
It's not unusual to see families picnicing beside a grave and obviously spending time there which is also a concept I don't understand.
I have conversations with both my parents, in my head, almost daily, so I suppose it really doesn't matter where their remains are now.
I just feel bad because I learned so much later that I might be seen as uncaring and could have done something rather than just abandon them.
It was so long ago I can't remeber the Funeral Director's details so all I can really do now is let it ,and their memory, rest.
Thanks again.
H/FJBLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 22
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:06 GMT, in reply to happyjazzbaby-no longer funny in message 21
It's not unusual to see families picnicing beside a grave and obviously spending time there which is also a concept I don't understand.Ìý
In other cultures this is quite normal fjb. The Chinese have a special day of the dead for example (called Ching Ming) where they go and clean the graves (often taking the bones out of the bone jar and cleaning them too) It is an important family occasion and they usually take picnics with them. You may have seen ethnic Chinese performing these rites?
SavvieLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 23
Posted by Fire-Pig - proud to wave the protest banner (U12231213) on Sunday, 15th November 2009
Savvie, I was going to post something similar to you about Ching Ming. As I understand it, the graves are left alone the rest of the year so that the dead can sleep in peace, once a year they are brought up to date with all the news.
F-PLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 24
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Monday, 16th November 2009
I just feel bad because I learned so much later that I might be seen as uncaring and could have done something rather than just abandon them.
Ìý
HFJB - I don't know who it was who put that idea into your head, but they were wrong, and unkind to do so.
We all have something to regret with regards to family who have died - it's in the nature of the human mind - but worrying about practical issues where decisions were made long ago is pointless, and damaging. Enjoy your chats with your parents - that's something that I don't do (but I don't feel guilty about it). You keep the memories alive in whatever way feels best to you.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 25
Posted by Celtic Tiger (U2229153) on Monday, 16th November 2009
Please don't feel this because it's clear from your posts that you are anything but uncaring. You obviously loved your parents deeply and you have kept them close to you in your memory for many years. Where their ashes are is irrelevant.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 26
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 27
Posted by FluffsomeUnderbelly (U13451134) on Monday, 16th November 2009
I wouldn't be scattering anybody up mountains - there was a programme about nutrients damaging mountain plant communiites. Avoid the veg (prob not likely anyway!)as well for mercury and dioxins.
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Message 28
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Tuesday, 17th November 2009
Fluff, I would have put Dad round his roses if he hadn't given other instructions. It was where he spent much of his retirement!
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Message 29
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Tuesday, 17th November 2009
Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:20 GMT, in reply to Fire-Pig in message 23
Yes, indeed F-P. I always thought there was something rather comforting and down to earth about Ching Ming. We in the West have become far too precious about death and related rites IMVHO.
SavvieLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 30
Posted by happyjazzbaby-no longer funny (U14072874) on Tuesday, 17th November 2009
I'm wondering just what might have been suggested to warrant a modding, but grateful for the words of comfort in other posts.
Lili, was it you who came to Oz last year?
You sound like the kind of person I would like to know better.
H/FJBLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 31
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
Yes, it was me who came to Australia this time last year on my 'Grand Tour'. Which part of Australia are you in, H/FJB? The only state/territories I missed out were South Australia and Tasmania.
I may return next year, so perhaps we could meet then.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 32
Posted by happyjazzbaby-no longer funny (U14072874) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
It's a long and expensive distance from those States to Sydney Lili but one can hope.
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Message 33
Posted by happyjazzbaby-no longer funny (U14072874) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
Sorry I completely mis-read your post. Maybe Sydney is an option after all.
Flea Flea go away...and Mozzies too We are having avery unseasonable heatwave at the moment and we are melting.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 34
Posted by Rider_on_the_Wheel (U4404005) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
Have not read all this thread but at my local crem the procedure is to ask if you want to be present at the scattering - you may want a minister of religion present, etc. If you indicate you do, they keep the ashes until you have made date arrangements, etc. If you don't, the ashes are scattered in the garden of remembrance as a matter of routine, as it were. So if you did not do anything at the time, I suggest that things were done in the regular way and that you do not worry yourself now.
HTHLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 35
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:03 GMT, in reply to Rider_on_the_Wheel in message 34
If you don't, the ashes are scattered in the garden of remembrance as a matter of routine, as it were.Ìý
Yes, that is my experience too Rider. I think most crems operate like that nowadays. FDs don't want the responsibility (and hassle) of holding ashes for people indefinitely.
SavvieLink to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 36
Posted by Helen (U1476131) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
Daniel's ashes were apparently scattered on the roses at the crem. I read that with an infant there are no ashes except maybe a bit of coffin, the bones are so small they burn fully. So I didn't want to keep the ashes or scatter them anywhere else. It was very important that Daniel only remains in our hearts and is not tied to a cemetary or other site somewhere, where we might not be around to look after "him".
The funeral directors were a bit bullying about what we wanted done with these non-ashes. Had we not been getting a freebie and therefore stuck with this company, I'd have gone with another one instead. They ignored me when I took the death certificate there and said I'd return with my husband to discuss details, and forced me to make decisions on my own about the funeral.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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Message 37
Posted by Rider_on_the_Wheel (U4404005) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009
That is insensitive in the extreme.
I think I'd have had an argument - on the other hand in circumstances of bereavement the last thing you want is the strain of a dispute.Link to this forum: This may be a bit Otherwise as it's about Cremation
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