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Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 1.聽
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Saturday, 21st November 2009
Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:49 GMT
The Sunday Philosophy Club
By Alexander McCall Smith
If you were expecting this to be like 鈥楾he No 1 Ladies鈥 Detective Agency鈥, the only resemblance is that it is written by the same author.
Isabel Dalhousie is very Scottish, very Edinburgh. She is wealthy on account of the inheritance from 鈥渉er sainted American mother鈥. She wears this lightly however. She lives in comfort rather than luxury, and edits the 鈥淩eview of Applied Ethics鈥. Evidence of an extant Philosophy club however is absent unless I haven鈥檛 read this book thoroughly enough.
At the end of a concert, she sees a young man fall from a balcony to his death. Despite discouragement from her friend Jamie, who is her niece鈥檚 ex boyfriend, she begins to investigate to satisfy herself that it was an accident.
I quite liked the pace of this book and am drawn to the character. She is aware of the ethical pitfalls of her life and tries to avoid them. So many people seem only to notice these after the event, so it is refreshing. Her niece Cat, in her early twenties, and proprietor of a delicatessen and snack bar, seems to be one of these, and is incapable of finding a boyfriend who is likely to be a good match for her; except for Jamie, a musician who she dumped, presumably because he was too boring for her. Her aunt, Isabel is more discriminating and is gradually falling in love with Jamie, against her will because she is in her early forties, and he is in his late twenties. He is also carrying a torch for Cat, who has found another boyfriend who wears crushed raspberry cords.
Grace, Isabel鈥檚 housekeeper provides the practicality that is so lacking in Isabel鈥檚 life, but is quite a pleasant character in spite of it.
This is the first book in a series of 6 so far, and I started at No 4, so going back to the beginning was quite a wrench.
We can discuss any of the series I should think if we wish. But it would be nice to concentrate on this one for now.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 2
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 21st November 2009
I've just finished it, Rwth.
I enjoyed the first half of the book, but then found myself becoming slightly exasperated with it (too many 'quizzicals' for a start!). I like well-enough the style of writing - easy-reading (tucked myself up next to a log fire and a glass of wine). Isabel rather irritated me in the end with all the jumping to false conclusions, and I thought poor Minty was rather jumped on! Interesting that he wrote all this before the huge upheaval in banking.
Is Edinburgh /really/ like the big village it is depicted as? Everyone seemed to know, or know of, everyone else.
Overall, glad I read it and will probably pass on my copy to anyone who wants some light (travel?) reading. It isn't a book I would be interested in keeping.
I preferred the N掳1 Ladies Detective Agency series (though only read first 4, I think).Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 3
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 21st November 2009
Thank you for introducing this month's discussion, Rwth.
I hadn't read any of AMS's Sunday Philosophy Club series before and this book was a mildly pleasant surprise. Most people I know who have read his books much prefer The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency books and found this series disappointing.
Couldn't agree with you more that there is little resemblance between the two series. The Mma Ramotswe books are sharp, vivid and quite pacy in an ambling sort of way(!)
By contrast, I found this book gently rambling and with no real plot or, rather, several plots which just fizzled out. Bit like RL really.
I started off liking Isabel Dalhousie but she did irritate as the book went on and there was one point at which I thoroughly disliked her.
Isabel did seem real to me though, as did her housekeeper Grace, who seemed reliable though perhaps not a very *comfortable* person to be around. However, I didn't think the other characters were fleshed out very well, even her niece Cat, and certainly not the various "beautiful" young men - dead and alive.
Re Cat's boyfriend Toby - do youngish men really wear trousers crushed-strawberry corduroy? And is a rolltop shirt a poloneck jumper? Awfully - um - 1970s (or thereabouts) isn't it?
What I particularly enjoyed about the book were the asides into ethical questions and dilemmas, many of which Isabel thought her Sunday Philosophy Club would enjoy discussing. I would have liked to have eavesdropped on some of those discussions but, alas, there wasn't even one in the book.
I wonder if this is a running joke throughout the books - no Club meetings ever actually take place.
Among her diversions into moral philosophy, she mused on Distant Wrongs (profits made on the backs of slavery for instance) and whether those distant wrongs are less wrong simply because they are less vivid to us.
There was also an interesting detour on whether Kant was mistaken when he said that it was always wrong to lie. According to him, there was [even] a duty to tell the truth to the murderer looking for his victim. Isabel thought that was the one of the most ridiculous things he had ever said. I just thought he must have been a complete prat (probably not the kind of expression used in one of Isabel's Club meetings).
I wish Isabel had had one of her moral philosophy musings when she saw a dog being ill-treated by its young owner. She could have thought of what Schopenhauer or Singer might have said about it. Instead she just laughed when the young woman she was with called the boy "Soapy Soutar".
Would I read any more in the series? Yes, probably, in the hope that the dog (encountered with the boy again towards the end of the book) is saved at some stage; also with the hope that we get to sit in with at least one flipping Sunday Philosophy Club meeting.
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 4
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 21st November 2009
For details of upcoming Book of the Month discussions and links to past ones, please see Message 31 here:
F2693944?thread=7019221&latest=1#p88785375Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 5
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Saturday, 21st November 2009
Coo, just finished reading. Couldn't believe it when I saw this thread, I thought it can't be the 21st.
Anyway, I found it an enjoyable read. And as stated up thread, good to read by a soothing fire accompanied by an even more soothing glass of something.
I have not read the Ladies Detective Agency books so have nothing to compare like to like. So taking the book on it's own I thought a very pleasant way to spend a couple or three hours.
I did enjoy the light delving into moral questions and such. The end of coures is the biggy, does one tell on the young man or not. She decided not but some justifiably might.
Agree about the strange clothes of the young man. Crushed strawberry cords! I think not.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 6
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 21st November 2009
Bette, Edinburgh does sound like a rather civilised large village doesn't it - or, at least, Isabel's Edinburgh does.
Like you I have to say I prefer the Mma Ramotswe series, though one can go off them if one reads them too close together.
honest, not just me re the trousers, then? I have to say, when reading this book I couldn't help thinking that the writer as being very much from an older generation whose finger wasn't quite on the pulse of modern Edinburgh and "young people". That didn't diminish the charm of the book for me, but it was odd to be jolted back to the realisation that AMS is only in his early sixties.
Mmm, if I were Isobel I think I would have tried to persuade Neil to go to the police himself, for his own peace of mind. If he hadn't I would probably leave it there as long as I was absolutely sure it was an accident.
Do try the Mma Ramotswe books.
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 7
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:34 GMT, in reply to Rwth of Cornovii in message 1
I can remember buying the hardback of this when first it came out as a Xmas present for my mother, who like me, loves the Mma Ramotswe series. My mother read it, smiled politely and suggested I take it back to Paris. I read it - and took it back to Switzerland.
The gentle whimsy that works so well in the Botswana-based N掳1 Ladies series or in the Edinburgh based 44, Scotland Street books, or in the combined 3 1/2 Pillars of Wisdom, fails completely to engross me. It probably does go down better if one hasn't had expectations raised by any of the other books AMS has written. Isabel Dalhousie is written with the voice of an elderly woman - but she is only in her early 40s!Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 8
Posted by Stripey (U13714328) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Quite, E. Yore, Isabel is definitely written with the voice of a much older woman.
I haven't read any of AMS's 44 Scotland Street or 3 1/2 Pillars of Wisdom books. Just looked them up but the fact that the main character in the 44..... books is 20 year old Pat doesn't bode that well.
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 9
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:36 GMT, in reply to Stripey in message 8
I tried to read 44 Scotland Streeet and was so bored that this came as a welcome relief. I suspect that Isabel who is about the same age as DD is probably written too old, but coming from a man my age, he hasn't done at all badly. I have been catching up on books 2 and 3 and now I can't remember what parts of the incidental detail come in which books.
There is a nice plug somewhere for the Really Terrible Orchestra, in which AMS plays the Bassoon, but I'm not sure if the conductor is really the person who figures in that book, or someone else.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 10
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:20 GMT, in reply to Stripey in message 8
Just looked them up but the fact that the main character in the 44..... books is 20 year old Pat doesn't bode that well.聽
Actually, it works better than the SPC. There are some lovely characters (pushy mother & son my favourites) and reading the books works better if you only do a chapter at a time - they were written as a serialisation for the Scotsman, iirc.
The three books in 3 1/2 Pillars are very funny and closer to the tone of Mma Ramotswe series.
I think what bothered me the most about SPC, was that where was the Philosophy??????Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 11
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:40 GMT, in reply to Rwth of Cornovii in message 9
I suspect that Isabel who is about the same age as DD is probably written too old, but coming from a man my age, he hasn't done at all badly.聽
Rwth, surely we should expect more than 'hasn't done at all badly' from an author? Kipling was a middle-aged man when he wrote 'Kim' - and yet Kim does not have the voice of a middle-aged man, and Kipling has done better than 'at all badly'. Trollope's Mrs Proudie is remarkable. Good authors are able to speak in voices other than their own. Why did AMS get it so wrong in the SPC?Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 12
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 23rd November 2009
I've got a couple of long journeys ahead of me, and it sounds as if one of the "44" or the "3 1/2 Pillars" books would do nicely. I daren't read a very engrossing book or am likely to miss my stop and end up in Penzance!
Yes, Isabel occasionally thought of topics that the SPC might enjoy debating, but that was about it. Why didn't she change the meetings(!) from a Sunday to another day? Had there ever been a gathering I wonder.
Reminds me a bit of the Maris character (wife/ex-wife of Niles Frasier) in the sit-com, Frasier - pivotal but we never ever see her: she had always "so upset that the [exotic flowers] haven't bloomed today that she's had to retire to bed", or "She's in Switzerland to have her elbows resculpted."
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 13
Posted by lady glen (U10017481) on Thursday, 26th November 2009
Finished the book and found the thread!!
Interesting to read all of the comments. I too found Isobel came across as much older than her early forties and I imagine her as such. There were times in the novel when her actions did not ring true with me for this reason.
I decided that the Philosophy club was more of a running joke by AMS than a club as they never met and never seemed likely to. Made me wonder if the other members could not be bothered or were making up excuses to avoid Isobel!Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 14
Posted by lady glen (U10017481) on Thursday, 26th November 2009
Also thought that describing it as a crime novel, as it is in my local bookshop, was misleading.
Although there was a potential crime and an attempt at solving it, the main thread was to tell a story about Isobel and her family and relationships. Indeed she did not really 'solve' the crime, there was a confession ,no sleuthing involved. This is were the philosophy aspect came in for me. The need to 'confess' and Isobel having to decide what to do with the knowledge.
I am wondering how the later books develop. Is there more of a crime aspect or do we get more about Isobel and her life?Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 15
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 26th November 2009
Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:28 GMT, in reply to ladyglencora in message 14
It depends what you mean by crime. Certainly unethical behavious arises in the later books, and I thought the ethical problems were quite interesting. I didn't find the characters a particular problem. They seemed pretty normal, with varying ethical standards.
It certainly looked as if the young man had been pushed off the balcony, which he had been, but not with intent. He had been pushed and he fell, so it was accidental. The question of intent is all. Which was why I thought Minty deserved the suspicion.
I wasn't sure why I liked the series, but I am now. I like to see the ethics at work. As the story progresses through the books, the ethics change a little, but more in colour than in quality. I think.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 16
Posted by plum the depths (U5587356) on Thursday, 26th November 2009
Yes this is what I thought; that we the reader are the philosophy club.
The story is put before us and we have to debate the issues that arise, in our heads I suppose.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 17
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 26th November 2009
Don't laugh, but I've got the rest of the series from the library and am working my way through (need some comfort reading at the moment).
I have to say that, on the whole, the books' gentle, rambling charm are growing on me. However, Isabel is very irritating, rather self-important in a self-deprecating way.
Had to laugh at one point in "The Right Attitude" when Isabel is thinking about Marmite - for or against.
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 18
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 26th November 2009
Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:49 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 17
Wait til she gets to another comon household product in a later book.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 19
Posted by barbara1835 (U10780912) on Wednesday, 2nd December 2009
I am just re-reading this book, so I will contribute more fully later when I have refreshed my memory.....If I can put up with the sainted Isabel all over again.
(If you have found her irritating here, just wait till you get to the bit in a later book when she decides to have a baby!)
I totally agree, it is hardly believable that this is the same author as the Ladies' Detective Agency books.
(Please, please, Honest, give them a go. You have a treat in store.)
With Precious and Grace et al, the author lets the characters and the locality develop naturally, so that the story and situations continue with that delightful touch of whimsy and gentle irony.
Here in the Isabel books he is continually contriving, contriving. There is a touch of clever-clogs about these SPC books which I find very irritating. Is he consciously trying to emulate Barbara Pym? i.e......striving for that subtle irony instead of letting it evolve from the characters?
More anon.
Barbara1835Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 20
Posted by barbara1835 (U10780912) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
Hello again.
This thread seems to have petered out. Have I given it the kiss of death?
I have finished the book, and I remember the frustrated feeling I had on my first reading of it. The amateur sleuthing builds up to quite an intrigue then just fizzles out when Isabel visits Neil and concludes the young man's fall was an accident. It seems a weak sort of ending.
As mentioned before, Isabel sounds so staid and dull.
This is a bit disloyal as I have a copy of The Good Husband of Zebra Drive signed by A. McCall Smith ....with my name and all.....when my son interviewed him in Melbourne.
I can't stand the 44 Scotland Street books, but as you see I am a great fan of the Botswana ones.
( I have just started Revolutionary Road.....what a difference. I look forward to when its turn comes.)
Barbara1835Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 21
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
Hello, Barbara1835, I was away till earlier this week so missed your earlier post. I've limped through the Sunday Philosophy Club series now, and couldn't agree more. There is an occasional shaft of humour or clever observation, but it really isn't enough.
Another thing - despite the author telling us how attractive Isobel is, my image of her is as a stout elderly lady with bun and brogues. Sigh.
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 22
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:14 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 21
Well, this wasn't the first one I read. I read the 4th book in the series and I thought it stood up well on its own. More mysterious, more of a quest, and a great releif from 44 Scotland Street. Which, incidentally is Radio 4's Book of the Month in January. I may try and get through that again to see if it gets any better.
I'm sorry you didn't like the Sunday Philosophy Club, but I enjoyed it and may not have read it if I hadn't promised to introduce it.
I have a copy of Revolutionary Road, from the Library, and I don't know whether I reserved it because of our own book club or because it was mentioned on the "About what book you are reading" thread. Anyway, I will read it and hope for the best. I have a lot of books to get through before Christmas because I have 3 reservations waiting to collect, and I'm maxed out on my own and O/Hs library cards.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 23
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
Well, there's the funny thing, Rwth: something made me keep reading the series. I just wanted to pull the rug from under Isabel's feet or shout "boo" at her from time to time!
RustyLink to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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Message 24
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:38 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 23
I just liked her. My daughter is nearly as old as her but still is as young as she wants to be. Isabel doesn't have enough self confidence. After her abusive marriage to a man who plainly didn't want her, she hasn't really had a youth of her own.
She has nothing to strive for, except Jamie, and she won't allow herself to want him for a long time. She has all the money she needs, and a nice life, but when in book 4, her job is threatened, she does the sensible thing in her circumstances and buys the Ethical Review. No point in being made miserable if you can do something about it. She lives a life that few of us can manage without her resources, but maybe I'm different in finding her interesting. How would you live if you had pots of money and liked to buy paintings? I hope Jamie realises that his own resources are enough. He has a profession and he teaches, so he is not a wastrel. Nobody but the crass will think he is marrying her for her money. I don't find her old, but she thinks she is too old to be attractive to a younger man even though he fancies her enough to give her a baby.
I didn't want to pre-empt the series for other people by commenting on later books. I loved the story about the tattooed man and the tattooed lady with their tattooed baby. It probably wasn't true, but it had a gentle rhythm about it. I don't suppose for one minute that everyone in Edinburgh lives at that slow pace, but someone like her might very well do so. I hope that she will ask Jamie to marry her because when he asked her, she thought he was doing it out of duty. I understand the feeling of watching her and him thrashing about in their mutual misunderstanding of each other. I've been wishing my brother would get married to his girlfriend, She is older than me, but still quite good looking.Link to this forum: Book of the Month November - The Sunday Philosophy Club
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