Messageboard
The Village Hall聽 permalink
May Film Club - Billy Wilder
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.聽
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
Welcome everyone to this month鈥檚 Film Club. Our subject this month is Billy Wilder, one of the greatest filmmakers of all time and one whose output is so prolific, spanning the 30s to the 70s, so very varied, encompassing as it does screenwriting for some of the very great screwball comedies & directors, directing and/or producing some of the most memorable comedies and dramas and thrillers of the Golden Age of Hollywood, that a Wilder film falls into no particular category automatically, raises no specific expectations other than being a Wilder film.
As I prepared this month鈥檚 introduction, I tried to think of which Wilder film is my favourite, that I would take to my desert island and realised I could not choose. Looking at his output on IMDb, I was stunned to see so very many classics listed under his name and had to begin revising my all my ideas about Billy Wilder and his place in film history. If I could only take the output of one filmmaker and one filmmaker only, with me to a desert island, it would now have to be Wilder for the sheer variety and quality of his films, whether as writer or director.
With Charles Brackett, Wilder wrote the screenplays of Lubitsch films 鈥楴inotchka鈥 and 鈥楤luebeard鈥檚 Eighth Wife鈥; of Mitchell Leisen鈥檚 screwball 鈥楳idnight鈥 & 鈥楢rise My Love鈥; of Howard Hawks鈥 鈥楤all of Fire鈥. The comedies Wilder himself directed (and often co-wrote) include such classics as 鈥楽abrina鈥; 鈥楲ove in the Afternoon鈥 (Wilder鈥檚 hommage to his master Lubitsch); the 鈥楳ajor and the Minor鈥; 鈥楽even Year Itch鈥 or 鈥楽ome Like it Hot.鈥 Wilder is one of a very select list of people to have won three oscars for the same film, as writer, director and best film), the cynical comedy of sex manners, 鈥楾he Apartment鈥.
Wilder, mainly a master of comedy? Well, no. Billy Wilder is also the film maker behind possibly the greatest film noir ever - 鈥楧ouble Indemnity鈥. 鈥楽talag 17' - Wilder. And guess who wrote and directed (and won an oscar for each) the gritty chronicle of the struggles of an alcoholic, 鈥楲ost Weekend鈥? 鈥楽unset Boulevard鈥, the bitter chronicle of the demise of a cynical screenwriter, told by the corpse? Wilder, again, at his very best.
There are so very many jewels in Wilder鈥檚 crown (four of his films make the top 100 of all time great films on IMDb and only William Wyler got more nominations for best director) that is it possibly quicker to list his duds - 鈥極ne, Two, Three鈥, 鈥楢vanti!鈥, 鈥楰iss Me Stupid鈥. (I have a great fondness for 鈥楾he Private Life of Sherlock Holmes鈥 but I know many people don鈥檛 like it and would count it a dud) than his successes. There are so very many good websites on Wilder that I鈥檇 like to list a few. Wikipedia and IMDb of course:
but also:
Many great Hollywood stars have been in Wilder films, but a few make repeat appearances, notably Ray Milland, Jack Lemmon, William Holden
What common threads do Wilder films have? A willingness to turn a harsh spotlight (even in his comedies) on the weaknesses and hypocrisies of America - whether alcoholism, Hollywood itself, sexual exploitation, journalism (鈥楢ce in the Hole鈥), the "sueing" industry (鈥楩ortune Cookie鈥). All of his films, even his fluid comedies, have an undertone of cynicism, satire or irony. Our eyes are opened to the infamy of the world even as we laugh or thrill. In this, he resembles Preston Sturges, but where Sturges鈥 films have no particular morality lesson in their endings, in a Wilder film the hero may well be sadder but will certainly be wiser. Wilder is not complicit in turpitude the way Sturges sometimes seems to be.
Wilder鈥檚 scripts highlight a feel for English (who can forget his one liners - 鈥楽unset Boulevard鈥 with the immortal end line 鈥淚鈥檓 ready for my close up now, Mr De Mille鈥; 鈥楽ome Like it Hot鈥欌榮 end line 鈥楴obody鈥檚 perfect鈥 or Ninotchka鈥檚 鈥淗ow are things in Moscow?鈥 "Very good. The last mass trials were a great success.There are going to be fewer but better Russians!") remarkable for a man who spoke no English before arriving in the US in 1934. His first Oscar nomination for screenplay was a mere five years later, for 鈥楴inotchka鈥.
What actually makes Wilder great? The quality of his scripts? The subject matter and how he handles it? Or is it his ability to do both comedy and drama? Perhaps it is none of these, but rather his skill in drawing consummate performances from his actors. Is there anyone who doesn鈥檛 love one or other of Wilder鈥檚 films? Over to you!
Sat, 15 May 2010 06:29 GMT -
Message 2
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
Sat, 15 May 2010 06:34 GMT, in reply to E Yore - pointless pedant in message 1
Film Clubs Past:
September 2006
Preston Sturges
October 2006
Those Were the Days
November 2006
Pedro Almodovar
December 2006
Fred & Ginger
January 2007
The Screwball Comedy of the 30s
February 2007
Powell & Pressburger
March 2007
Movie Parodies
April 2007
Ealing Comedies
May 2007
Gainsborough Films
June 2007
Film Noir I
July 2007
Yasujiro Ozu
August 2007
Desert Island Films
September 2007
Alfred Hitchcock Part the First
September 2007
Alfred Hitchcock Part the Second
September 2007
Alfred Hitchcock Part the Third
October 2007
The Life and Times of Leslie Howard
November 2007
Remakes
December 2007
Melodramas
January 2008
Ernst Lubitsch
February 2008
Sword and Sandal Epics
March 2008
Shakespeare on Film
April 2008
Mancunian Film Studios
May 2008
Robert Altman
June 2008
Westerns
August 2008
DIDs
September 2008
War Films: The Soldier鈥檚 Story
October 2008
War Films: The Civilian鈥檚 Story
November 2008
Women Directors
December 2008
Christmas Films
January 2009
Bill Forsyth
February 2009
Stanley Kubrick
March 2009
Frank Capra
April 2009
Films about Music
May 2009
Courtroom Dramas
June 2009
Prison Films
July 2009
Mike Leigh
August 2009
DID Turkeys
September 2009
Australia/NZ Films
October 2009
Children in Film
November 2009
Light Sci-Fi
December 2009
Road Movies
January 2010
Roman Polanski
February 2010
Miscastings
March 2010
High School Movies
April 2010
Coming of Age Films
Film Clubs Upcoming:
19 June - The Casting Couch (mamanchauffeuse)
17 July - Clint Eastwood (Rusters)
21 August - DID: your 8 favourite children's films (anyone who can open up)
18 September - Charlie Chaplin (Reggie Trentham)
We are always happy to welcome new posters and delighted if they would like to open up on the 3rd Saturday of a month, on the subject of their choice. As you can see, we have the slots free at the end of the year - please do go onto the Rota thread and offer to lead a discussion:
-
Message 3
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
In the world of cinema, there were two great duels over how to make a good story well told. Most students learn about the Lumieres/Mellies dispute over Truth versus Magic, but there is also the Great Divide that grew up in Hollywood between the 'well-told' tricksy cinematograph-directors like Hitchcock and Wells on one side, and the narrativist good-storytellers exemplified by Wilder.
Wilder more or less invented the movie screenplay as we know it. His choice of a typewriter with 8 point Courier remains the only acceptable font to this day, and you must also use all of his margins and indentations, his uses of capitals and parentheses, and his style of descriptive paragraphs, known in the Business as 'the business,' in order that one page of script equals one minute of screen-time.
(Although the screenplay for my favourite film, by Edward Bond for Nic Roeg's 'Walkabout,' runs to just 17 pages for 100 minutes, but then the Roeg was always in the 'well-told' camp.)
What makes a great film-maker? Same as what makes anyone great in any artistic field: Range.
Thassorl. -
Message 4
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
Sat, 15 May 2010 09:49 GMT, in reply to JB-on-the-West-Cliff in message 3
the narrativist good-storytellers exemplified by Wilder.聽
Yes, Wilder knew how to tell a story well, succinctly with no down time but no overload or overstressing major themes.
Wilder more or less invented the movie screenplay as we know it. His choice of a typewriter with 8 point Courier remains the only acceptable font to this day, and you must also use all of his margins and indentations, his uses of capitals and parentheses, and his style of descriptive paragraphs, known in the Business as 'the business,' in order that one page of script equals one minute of screen-time.聽
Wow - I had no idea about the technique behind script writing, being just an illiterate fan of films, as it were. Thank you very much for educating us as well as contributing to our discussions. You wouldn't want, would you JB, to do a Film Club on the "how" a film comes together (ie the whole film-making process)? I suspect I'm not the only person who doesn't have an idea at all of how the idea becomes a classic dream but who would want to learn something about it.
What makes a great film-maker? Same as what makes anyone great in any artistic field: Range.聽
Now, here I would disagree - Vermeer, Gesualdo, Hitchcock and Lubitsch all had limited range and yet in their fields they were indubitably great. -
Message 5
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
Sat, 15 May 2010 09:57 GMT, in reply to E Yore - pointless pedant in message 4
Thinking aloud, I wonder whether Wilder's greatness isn't his genius in timing and attention to detail, in drama as well as in comedy. I'm thinking of the first meeting between Fred McMurray and Barbara Stanwyck in 'Double Indemnity' - more time in that scene and it would have been cheesy, less and the inexorable playing out of the story wouldn't have been evident. -
Message 6
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
"how" a film comes together (ie the whole film-making process)?
Gawd, I wish I knew. Just another undiscovered hopeful with a screenplay currently on the go.
The Nick Hornby script for 'An Education' is published in book form and has a very informative and funny guide to how that project was realised, but I suspect the bit where he says, 'and then I showed it to my wife who is a film producer' is perhaps not typical?
Perhaps I could do a topic on the CHNS (Classic Hollywood Narrative Structure) it's origins in Aristotle's 'Poetics' and the work of Joseph Campbell on Myths, which Jane Goldman/Mrs Woss more or less cuts and pastes for 'Stardust' it's so by-the-numbers. -
Message 7
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Saturday, 15th May 2010
Sat, 15 May 2010 10:56 GMT, in reply to JB-on-the-West-Cliff in message 6
Perhaps I could do a topic on the CHNS (Classic Hollywood Narrative Structure) it's origins in Aristotle's 'Poetics' and the work of Joseph Campbell on Myths, which Jane Goldman/Mrs Woss more or less cuts and pastes for 'Stardust' it's so by-the-numbers.聽
Yes Please! Rota Thread here for you to choose a month etc:
It would be especially good to break new ground in terms of subject as we seem to be stuck on director/actor/theme.
'and then I showed it to my wife who is a film producer' is perhaps not typical?聽
I suspect not ... -
Message 8
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 21st May 2010
E. Yore, I had no idea till now that Billy Wilder was connected to so many of my favourite films. Although I am not entirely sure that if I could only take the output of one film maker to my desert island it would be Wilder鈥檚,it would be a close-run thing.
Like just about everyone else who has ever seen鈥 Some Like It Hot鈥, it is one of my favourite comedies 鈥 make that films 鈥 of all time. I was slightly disappointed with 鈥淪even Year Itch鈥, but that might have been because I saw it soon after "Some Like it Hot" and I was expecting something similar. TBH, the thing I remember best is the iconic scene of Marilyn Monroe in that dress over that grating.
It is quite possible the film had some witty and cynical things to say about the great institution of marriage that passed me by at my tender age. I see it was based on a play and I wonder if that made it seem a bit stilted.
鈥淒ouble Indemnity鈥 is my favourite film noir ever (only 鈥淭he Postman Always Rings Twice鈥 comes close). I agree, E. Yore, that the first meeting between Barbara Stanwyck (now there was a femme fatale) and Fred McMurray crackled with sexual tension and set the scene beautifully for the rest of the film. Unlike in 鈥淭he Postman.........鈥, Wilder presents his two murderous protagonists in an unremittingly merciless light 鈥 no sentimentality there.
I saw 鈥淪unset Boulevard鈥 for the first time a few weeks back. While I don鈥檛 think it is one of Wilder鈥檚 greats, there were some wonderful lines by the redoubtable Swanson, thinking of : 鈥淚 *am* big 鈥 it was the *pictures* that got small.鈥 It certainly shone light on the vagaries and cruelties of Hollywood past (present too I shouldn鈥檛 wonder). I guessed the William Holden twist from the beginning, but I was actually shocked by Max鈥檚 (Eric von Stroheim) revelation towards the end of the film.
There were a few duds among the gems, I think. Courtroom dramas are one of my favourite film genres, but 鈥淲itness for the Prosecution鈥 was clunky and pedestrian at best, and 鈥淥cean鈥檚 Eleven鈥 was almost as dismal as the remake.
Frustratingly, I have never seen 鈥淭he Apartment鈥, which won five Oscars among other awards.
JB, how great would it be for writers to have their own 鈥渢ame鈥 film producer on tap 鈥 lucky old Nick Hornby.
Rusty -
Message 9
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Friday, 21st May 2010
Fri, 21 May 2010 14:34 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 8
A carefully crafted reply disappeared into the ether thanks to 'Server Too Busy'. In brief: 7 Year Itch is disappointing as is 'Witness for the Prosecution'. For some reason I always thought the latter was Hitchcock, not Wilder. In Wilder's defence, I'd not have wanted to direct Charles Laughton nor transform Christie's original story as Hollywood insisted. -
Message 10
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 21st May 2010
Maybe, like me, you were confusing it with Hitchcock's "The Paradine Case", another equally clunky courtroom drama (or melodrama really) with a broadly similar plot. The film does have the saving graces of Gregory Peck and the very beautiful Alida Valli, though. Charles Laughton is in both films, which is probably where most of my confusion lay.
Just remembered that I saw "Midnight" (1937, I think)once on late night television and absolutely loved it. Sadly it doesn't seem to be available on DVD for the UK market.
Rusty -
Message 11
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Friday, 21st May 2010
Fri, 21 May 2010 15:11 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 10
You're right - I am mixing up the two. 'Midnight' is WONDERFUL - we have it on an old NTSC video and just for that and 'Miracle of Morgan's Creek' - neither of which were re-released on DVD, I am insisting on my parents' (and myself, of course) keeping our video machines. -
Message 12
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 30th May 2010
From time to time on a Saturday afternoon (I think) Radio 4 broadcasts a play which follows the script of an old film pretty faithfully. Last year it did 'The Postman Always Rings Twice', and a few weeks back it did 'Now Voyager'.
It would be nice to hear 'Midnight', but then again I don't know if comedies work as well as thrillers or melodramas on radio.
I'd never even heard of 'Miracle of Morgan's Creek' and had to look it up; bit risque for the time (1944), but I suppose if an actual marriage had taken place.........
Rusty -
Message 13
Posted by Doctor Darling (U10735496) on Monday, 31st May 2010
In reply to message 12
I'm always staggered how ML resonates with RL. I was talking about Ace in the Hole" with a friend only two days ago, and now find this thread.
It has some great quotes:
"I met a lot of hard-boiled eggs in my life, but you? You're twenty minutes"
"I don't go to church. Kneeling bags my nylons" -
Message 14
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Monday, 31st May 2010
Mon, 31 May 2010 14:05 GMT, in reply to Doctor_Darling in message 13
Welcome, D_D! Yes, Billy Wilder's one-liners are to swoon over. I haven't seen Ace in the Hole - would you like to tell us about it (plot, what you think, strong points, weak points, essential Wilderiana etc.)? -
Message 15
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 31st May 2010
Rusters M12:
A film I would happily adapt for radio myself is on later this week: "The Beast" is the story of a Russian tank lost in the Panshir Valley being hunted by the Mujihadeen like a wounded animal. The role of the tank commander is a shoe-in for Philip Glenitster.
The other one I'd adapt would be "The Cat's Meow," based on a true story of what probably happened on WR Hearst's yacht in 1925 when pioneer film producer was accidentally shot by Hearst who mistook him for fellow party guest Charlie Chaplin who Hearst rightly suspected of sniffing round his latest young wife. -
Message 16
Posted by Doctor Darling (U10735496) on Tuesday, 1st June 2010
In reply to message 14
Thanks, E Yore!
I promise I keep meaning to come back, and will, but just want to get my thoughts more in order for something a bit more organised than my usual inanities.
(It's why I'm always behind with my emails - easy to fool about in TB, harder to sort out a rational response to someone you don't want to think you're a complete idiot*)
*I can't be, though - I've had my tonsils out. -
Message 17
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
DD (message 13), I haven't seen "Ace in the Hole", and had to look it up. Despite some snappy one-liners, it looks incredibly bleak. Wilder's range really was amazing.
JB (message 15), looks like you agree with me that drama and thrillers make better radio than comedy. While I should think Wilder's "Ace in the Hole" and "Double Indemnity", among others would make great radio, I don't think the same would go for "Some Like It Hot".
A year or two back Radio 4 put on "Gentleman Prefer Blondes" and I thought it fell flat.
Rusty -
Message 18
Posted by Leaping Badger (U3587940) on Wednesday, 9th June 2010
Morning everyone. Sorry I've not been around - was offline for a couple of weeks and have been struggling health-wise, so haven't really had the energy to join in. I always think Wilder is rather wonderful, but looking at the list of films he's directed, there are more films I think are a bit clunky than ones I really like. The one I think really works being, of course, Some Like It Hot. Sabrina is also well done, although I'm not keen on the sexual politics (of its time, of course) and Stalag 17 also excellent. Have never managed to make it all the way through Sunset Boulevard as I found it really hammy.
Eyore, I have Miracle of Morgan's Creek on DVD, and Midnight has also been available: (you should be able to get this shipped to France). If you want me to send you a copy of Miracle, let me know.
Best wishes to all.
'脰' -
Message 19
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Wednesday, 9th June 2010
Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:33 GMT, in reply to Leaping Badger in message 18
I was a bit worried about your silence, Leapers, and was hesitating on owling you to ask if you were okay.
Interesting that you think Sabrina was well-done. Now, I love Audrey Hepburn, Bogie and swoon at William Holden but as much as that film is my favourite rom-com, I don't think it is anywhere as witty or acid as some of Wilder's other films. 'Sunset Bld' like 'The Apartment' or 'Fortune Cookie' is a bit like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You can see where it is going to go and what is going to happen but you don't know any of the details.
Eyore, I have Miracle of Morgan's Creek on DVD, and Midnight has also been available: www.amazon.co.uk/Mid... (you should be able to get this shipped to France). If you want me to send you a copy of Miracle, let me know.聽
Oh frabjous day! Calloo! Callay!! Off to Amazon to get both ... mwahs to you, Leaps, for checking for me. (Now, if the Devil and Miss Jones were brought out on DVD, my cup would run over.) -
Message 20
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Wednesday, 9th June 2010
Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:43 GMT, in reply to E Yore in message 19
Aaaargh! They are colourised versions. Double Aaaarrrrgghh!! Sticking with my b&w videos.
I do wish they would stop colourising classics to make them palatable to today's yoof. I bought 'Bachelor Girl' without realising it was colourised; when I turned the colour off, the picture was very fuzzy, without the sharpness the original b&w would have had. -
Message 21
Posted by Leaping Badger (U3587940) on Wednesday, 9th June 2010
Eyore, I've just checked my copy of Miracle, and it is black and white. I'm pretty sure this is the same as mine: - it has the 'Full screen DVD collection' flash across the top. The description says 'black & white' as well. As I say, if you'd like me to send you a copy, so you can save a few groats, I'd be happy to.
You could ask the sellers of the DVD of Midnight to check the disc to see if there's a black and white version of the film in addition to the colorized (spit) version. It's possible that both are included and worth checking.
Always glad to be of service.
love, '脰'
About this Board
Welcome to the Archers Messageboard.
or 聽to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
This messageboard is now closed.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
主播大秀 iD
主播大秀 navigation
主播大秀 links
主播大秀 漏 2014 The 主播大秀 is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.