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Book Club, July: Dystopian Fiction
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Message 1.Ěý
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
What is dystopian fiction? In a nutshell, it is the opposite of utopian fiction!
Utopian fiction relates to the creation of an ideal world, or Utopia (the word Utopia was first used in this context by Sir Thomas More in his 1516 work of that title). Dystopian fiction is the corollary, i.e., the creation of a nightmare world, often characterised by an authoritarian or totalitarian form of government. It usually features different kinds of repressive social control systems, a lack or total absence of individual freedoms and expressions and a state of constant warfare or violence. A dystopian society is also often characterised by mass poverty for most of its inhabitants.
Dystopian fiction has also been categorised as �speculative fiction�, which I think is as good a description as any. [Thank you, Wikipedia].
I'd also say that dystopian fiction is a sub-genre of science fiction, one which concentrates more on humans and the societies they have constructed, rather than the wider remit of mainstream sci-fi, which encompasses space travel and adventure, the wonders of technology, alien beings in other worlds, or alien invasions of our world.
More than 400 dystopian works were published in the English language prior to 1900, with more than a thousand others during the twentieth century; there have been a fair number so far in this century too.
This is Wikipedia�s list of dystopian fiction spanning 1835 to 2010:
George Orwell�s �Nineteen Eighty-Four� (published 1949) is probably the best known and most widely read dystopian novel so needs no introduction. Suffice it to say that there cannot be many people who don�t know exactly what is meant by �Big Brother Is Watching You�, a line which could be considered particularly apposite in a country which apparently has more CCTV cameras than anywhere else in the world.
Dystopian fiction is set anywhere from the near future � sometimes so near that at first the book seems to be have a contemporary setting, e.g. J.G. Ballard�s �Super-Cannes� (published in 2000) � to a time far into the future where technology looms large. One example is Philip K Dick�s �Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?� (1968), on which the award-winning film �Blade Runner� was based.
Then there are the apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic themes depicting the destruction or disintegration of society as we know it, e.g. �The Road� by Cormac McCarthy (2006), chronicling the harrowing journey of a man and his young son as they travel across a devastated America to seek safe haven following some unspecified global disaster. Along the way they encounter other desperate and sometimes dangerous people trying to survive in extreme, probably hopeless circumstances.
These are a few of my favourite dystopian novels:
�Brave New World� (1932) by Aldous Huxley. Here in the World State of �Brave New World�, eugenics is practised, where embryos in test tubes are programmed to become the Alpha Elite, or Betas, Gammas, Deltas or worst, Epsilons who are destined to be stunted drones, capable only of rudimentary thought and menial tasks. Hedonism (for the Alphas anyway), consumerism and the promotion and heavy use of the mood-altering recreational drug �Soma�, are the driving forces. By such means the World State leaders keep the population entertained and controlled.
�The Handmaid�s Tale� (1985) by Margaret Atwood is set in the America of the near future, where a totalitarian theocracy rules, and infertility is widespread. Young women are trained, in secure establishments, to be submissive �handmaids� to elite couples in order to bear them a child before being sent back to their centre to await their next assignment. They are punished for showing any spark of individuality, including dress (they are made to wear robes and head coverings at all times); even their names are erased and replaced with ones more fitting to their station.
Atwood has said that the iniquities she wrote about here have all happened in the recent past or, somewhere around the world, are happening now: totalitarianism, religious fundamentalism, the brutal subjugation of women, the enforced wearing of the burqa, concubinage, and the renaming of domestic servants (e.g., England, even into the twentieth century).
And now for something completely different: �The Chrysalids�(1955) by John Wyndham is set in Labrador thousands of years in the future. However, here technology does not rule. The inhabitants live in rural settlements, practise a kind of fundamental Christianity, and are only vaguely aware that there had once been a more technologically sophisticated civilisation. Genetic mutations are common and are so abhorred that babies and children are either killed or abandoned in the terrifying fringelands, to survive as best they can.
This is often said to be Wyndham�s best book, and I agree. I certainly think it is his only really dystopian novel, as all (?) his others are more mainstream science-fiction (alien invasions, for instance).
What dystopian fiction writers seem to share is a desire to us of the possible unintended consequences of so-called �progress�, as well as to tell a good story.
Rusty -
Message 2
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Good heavens, what's up with the punctuation? Makes the text almost impossible to read. This occasionally happens when one clicks "preview". Should have gone back to "edit" for an extra preview. Gah! Think I'll hide under the bedclothes and try again tomorrow.
Rusty -
Message 3
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Great introduction, Rusters. I will cme back to the thread when I have more time. Quick scan of the Wiki list shows it includes two titles I thought of at once.
P D James The Children of Men
Anthony Burgess A Clockwork Orange.
I wonder of Nevil Shute's On the Beach fits in the genre?. -
Message 4
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Thanks Jenny - you managed to read my intro without grinding your teeth at the strange punctuation, then?!
I think all three of the books you mention qualify as dystopian fiction. I liked "The Children of Men" particularly, as it was set in the near future, so I could identify with the period, and the fragmentation and disintegration of society seemed very real. To be honest, I usually find P.J. James rather plodding, but this and her stand-alone psychological thriller "Innocent Blood" are in a different league.
It's a shame Nevil Shute seems to have been largely forgotten. "On the Beach" was dramatised very well on Radio 4 a few months back - a dramatic story but told in a low-key way.
Have to confess I haven't read "A Clockwork Orange", or even seen the film all the way through. I gather it is fairly true to the book. However, I can't remember ever feeling such loathing and such pity for a character as I did for Alex.
Rusty
Rusty -
Message 5
Posted by Kris massblues (U14058894) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Hi guys,
Dystopian? always nice to add a new word to my vocab...
My first though was that The Bible fits into this catagory quite nicely, well Revelations does i mean?
Neville Shute's On The Beach has a lot to answer for as i blame my mis-spent use on having read this book ansd, having found it powerful and pertinent (?) of the times i joined the CND and lived on Greenham common for two years.
Seriously, id that is not testament to the power of a novel then i don't know what is?!
Kris -
Message 6
Posted by Kris massblues (U14058894) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Blimey Rusty my post is litered with typos etc, must be catching...
mis-spent youth i mean of course, not use. Duh
Id? Er, is. And so on through typos sorry. -
Message 7
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
kris, you've had leafing through my Bible (school prize irrc) now. Yes, Revelations with the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse representing Pestilence, War, Famine and Death must surely have influenced many authors of dystopian fiction.
Shute wrote "On the Beach" in 1957, and I would guess that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were still fresh in people's minds then.
Two years on Greenham Common? Respeck.
Rusty
P.S. Sorry my typos [whines: they weren't all my fault] seem to be catching. -
Message 8
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Interesting thread, Rusty. I had never heard of 'dystopian' before, but it makes sense, now you have explained it!
I'd like to add Kafka to your list: 'Metamorphosis', 'The Trial', 'The Plague' - those are the only three I have read, but they must pass the definition, mustn't they? -
Message 9
Posted by Sea Nymph (U1474682) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Ooh, marvellous. I haven't mentioned my favourite book in ML for at least a couple of weeks. I have to be fair and point out that this is Soup Dragon using SeaNy's sign-in, as he read it and loathed it.
Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. Story of a boy in post-holocaust Kent where life has become Iron Age. One bit of blurb calls it: "A dark parable of death and rebirth, told in a language that attempts the impossible and achieves it."
The 'English' in which it written is initially off-putting: reading aloud gets it going. Will Self (who based his dystopian Book of Dave on this A Lot) notes that once you've read it - however long that takes (it took Hoban five years to write and he said it ruined his spelling) you will be unable to shake Riddleyspeak. Certainly true for me and best friend.
Actually it might be easier to read now than when published in 1980 as text speak is so common. 'O what we ben! And what we come to... How cud I not want to get that shyning Power back from time way back? How cud any 1 not want to be like them what had boats in the air and picters on the wind? How cud any 1 not want to see them shyning weals terning?'
It has the most glorious nods and tributes to Englishness but is universal in its focus on the life and feelings of one so very human protagonist. I heart Riddley. -
Message 10
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Yes, Bette, I'd definitely include Kafka's "The Trial" (and so does Wikipedia!) and "The Castle" for that matter.
I'm not so sure about "The Metamorphosis", which I think teeters on the brink of sci-fi/fantasy-horror (if there is such a sub-genre). If one includes this, then that would let in Richard Matheson's "The Incredible Shrinking Man", where the protagonist gradually shrinks almost to nothing invisible after exposure to radiation and insecticide.
When checking the Wikipedia list just now, I see Trollope is on it for "Fixed Period" (1882). Whoda thunk? Not me, anyway.
Rusty -
Message 11
Posted by MarvinPA ThinkYouOughtToKnowImFeelingVeryDepressed (U2611948) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:05 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 1
After finishing Atwood's The Robber Bride on holiday, I finally got round to the Handmaid's Tale - brilliant*, if disturbing, so now I'm on an Atwood quest/trek/journey. Finished Surfacing (hated the ending), on Catseye for the second time, Alias Grace and Oryx & Crake queued up (read Blind assassin years ago - more than once). The list goes on - just noticed The Year of The Flood.
Pendulum, by John Christopher? (with such a remarkably similar style to John Wyndham, they were thought to be the same person)
*"Our big mistake was teaching them to read. We won't do that again." OUCH! -
Message 12
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
The best known dystopias have already been mentioned. I liked Kazuo Ishiguro's 'Never let Me Go'.
A rather quirky one from the '60s was Russell Braddon's, 'The Year of the Angry Rabbit'.
When I say that I like such a book, 'like' may be the wrong word; appreciate, perhaps, but if they are any good they are too disturbing to be 'liked'.
glen -
Message 13
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
SoupD, you (and Ali, I think) recommended âRiddley Walkerâ quite a while ago, irrc, and I put it on my wish list then.* No takers, so it looks like Iâll have to buy it myself. Who could resist âA dark parable of death and rebirth............â.
I have to admit the âEnglishâ might take a bit of getting into - that was certainly what put me off âFeersum Endjinnâ by Iain M. Banks, and I didnât finish it.
Going back to âRiddley Walkerâ, it has just dawned on me that relatively little dystopian fiction (that I have read, anyway) are set in futures where societies have *regressed*, to Iron Age or The Chrysalidsâ primitive rural settlements, for example.
*[Ah, itâs all coming back to me now: you recommended it, SeaNy â er â didnât, but he did recommend âA Boy and His Dogâ by Harlan Ellison, which is a post-Apocalyptic satire (Iâd already seen the film, but still havenât managed to track down the short story)].
Marvin, I really like most of Atwood (âThe Handmaidâs Taleâ, âThe Blind Assassinâ and âThe Robber Brideâ my favourites; disliked Catseye and Alias Grace). However, although I was looking forward to âOryx & Crakeâ, I thought it disappointing; ditto âThe Year of the Floodâ, which I found almost unreadable, Iâm afraid. Perhaps youâd consider posting here again when youâve read them. Thatâs the great thing about book and film threads â they donât really âdateâ so one can go back to them months later.
I havenât read any John Christopher, but I see he was almost a contemporary (bit younger) of Wyndham, and had a broadly similar background and war record. For some reason I had vaguely thought his stuff was rather dark and sinister, whereas Wyndham can seem almost cosy at times. âPendulumâ looks pretty scary:
âThis is not science-fiction but terror-probability.â I should think it fits into the category of post-apocalytpic dystopia.
glen, I know what you mean about saying one âlikesâ disturbing books. I nearly wrote âlovedâ a couple of times upthread before changing it to âlikedâ (I think), but âappreciateâ says it best, really.
Iâve read a lot of Russell Braddon (my father liked his stuff), but I havenât come across âThe Year of the Angry Rabbitâ. It is (surely?) his only sci-fi/dystopian book though Iâm not surprised that he wrote one. I think his work was very wide-ranging, from autobiography to psychological thriller to black comedy. Nice to âseeâ someone who has heard of him, btw.
I havenât (yet) read Ishiguroâs âNever Let Me Goâ, because it seems to horrific and so bleak that I think Iâd need to brace myself first.
Rusty -
Message 14
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
No one's mentioned Fahrenheit 451 (Ray Braadbury.) A future without books... I'd really struggle with that. I first heard it as a Saturday play on R4, and I had to order it from the library, as it's an unusual gap in my mother's collection.
The Handmaid's Tale is a favourite of mine - I wouldn't say it's a comfortable read, but it's good. I find it quite chilling because it's very credible, which not all Didn't enjoy Oryx & Crake though, though I like a most of Margaret Atwood.
I have been rereading quite a lot of John Wyndham the past couple of years, which started with the Chrysalids, which I first came across as a radio play in the very early '80s, around age 9 or 10, and it took me years to find out what it actually was, as when I had asked my mother at the time, she had just said, "Saturday Night Play." (We were on holiday at the time, so I was able to date it when I later tried to find out.) I had a very clear memory of the girl's footprint on the rock, with 6 toes. I've also reread Chocky, the Midwich Cuckoos and the Day of the Triffids recently, and have enjoyed remembering what a good writer Wyndham can be.
John Christopher - I am most acquainted with the Tripods, which I went to a friends' house to see when it was on TV in the early '80s, as we did not have a TV at the time. I reread that recently, too. I was thinking about rereading the Death of Grass, but I read that when I was a teenager, and my memory of it was quite disturbing. It was a classic serial in the last couple of years or so, and it wasn't as bad as I remembered, so perhaps a reread might be okay.
I read Brave New World also as a teenager, but don't remember it that well.
1984 - yes, everyone's heard of Big Brother and Room 101, but I wonder how many know that they come from Orwell, rather than TV programmes, which actually were named after his book, rather than vice versa. I first read 1984 in the Christmas holidays in December 1983, I was determined to finish it before it actually was 1984. I was only 11 at the time, and don't think I really got it then. I reread it about 8 years later, and it's another one I think is due for a reread.
I heard something else - either a play or a classic serial, probably about 4 years ago, possibly a Russian author - reminded me of 1984, but I can't remember author/title or exact storyline. (So that's a really helpful insight, Bearhug...)
I notice that for nearly all these books, I have heard adaptations on the radio (or film or TV), though in some cases the book came first. I suspect I would have read most of them anyway - I remmeber making a particular effort to hear the Handmaid's Tale when it was a classic serial, because I had enjoyed the book, and I have a particular memory of sitting in the car by Church Knowlton in long wintery afternoon shadows, waiting for it to finish before I left the car. But Mum read a lot of Wyndham and Christopher and so on, so things like that were always available on the shelves at home. -
Message 15
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
I was going to suggest the Midwich Cuckoos, but I take your point Rusty about aliens invading a hitherto 'normal' society isn't quite the same.
Children's literature shares some dystopian themes, eg Malorie Blackman's 'Noughts and Crosses' series set in a reversely-racist totalitarian society,and Meg Rosoff's 'How I Live Now', and young girl's experiences in a future war.
There is also a series I haven't read yet but has been recommended by some of the older girls at school, by Scott Westerfield, starting with 'Uglies'. It sounds terrifying but interesting, about a society where evryone is forced to have cosmetic surgery at the age of 16 in order to conform with society's expectations. -
Message 16
Posted by whippet_walker (U6107899) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Last summer I read "A State of Denmark" by Derek Raymond - a very bleak book set in 1960's Britain where a right wing government has established a single party state. Very interesting on manipulation & the media but deeply depressing.
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Message 17
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:42 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 13
I see John Wyndham has been mentioned for "The Crysalids", but might I suggest his "The Year Dot", a dire warning about the computer age long before it began.
I have one or two candidates by John Brunner - "The Shockwave Rider" and another one which I think is "The long view" also by John Brunner. On the top shelf which I can't reach, and haven't read for quite a while. I'm sure "A Midsummer Night's Tempest" by Poul Andersen also figures somewhere in here, but I'm afraid I've not read them for a while.
As one who read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley by preference to "Lady Chatterley's Lover", I can say I found it much more interesting an a lot more shocking than LCL (which I have still not read) by all accounts.
I once read "Merlin" by Robert Nye, and hated it. It was very dystopian, and foul mouthed, but when young we try to experiment. According to the A reviews it is a work of great talent. Hmm! -
Message 18
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Only just found this thread, Rusty, where HAVE I been looking??
Great introduction, thank you very much.
I've just re-read 'The Handmaid's Tale', for about the fourth time, excellent book perhaps because it is actually believable, and as you said so accurately upthread, this type of society is already in existence in one way or another, in some parts of the world.
(By the way, halfway through 'The Robber Bride' for the first time).
I sort of cut my teeth on '1984', and 'Brave New World' but when I read them I didn't have the definition of 'dystopian' to categorise that type of exciting and disturbing literature. Such a good word, though.
Nevile Shute's 'On The Beach' depressed me for ages, there was no hint of hope at the end of the book, unlike the film, iirc.
Can I bring to the party one of my favourite new(ish) books which I know has been discussed in the book thread...'Cloud Atlas' by David Mitchell. Particularly the chapters recounted in the voice of Omni. Quite chilling, and certainly dystopian. When I was reading it I was thinking 'yes, yes, I can see this happening'.
Would you class some of Robert Heinlein's SciFi novels in this vein? I'm thinking particularly of his later books, 'Friday', and possibly 'I Will Fear No Evil'. These catalogue a society where brain transplants and bio engineering are not only possible, but becoming common. Or am I blurring the edges here?
xx
Ali -
Message 19
Posted by Sea Nymph (U1474682) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Am tempted to sign in as my beloved spouse just to balance things, but this confuses the issue much more.
THE dystopian novel has to be John Brunner's The Sheep Look Up.The title taken from a John Milton poem
The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed,
But swoln with wind and the rank mist they draw,
Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread ...
It's written in short (sometimes very short chapters) incorporating newsflash headlines, advertising jingles, brief vignettes and snapshots, all stitching themselves into a plot of planetwide ecological disaster.
It's thoroughly depressing, utterly frightening, absolutely brilliant and, considering it was written in 1972, uncannily prophetic. -
Message 20
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Rusters is 'dystopian' a new word for the genre. I hadn't herd it before. It is a good description for the books on the list.
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Message 21
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Bearhug, Iâve not read âFahrenheit 451â (the temperature at which books burn, right?), though Iâve heard/read about it over the years. It sounds my kind of book, though Iâd find a future without books almost unendurable, so I am not expecting a comfortable read. Interesting that you didnât enjoy âOryx & Crakeâ either â so very different from âThe Handmaidâs Taleâ it could almost have been written by a different author, I thought.
I agree that John Wyndham is a good writer (and sadly under-appreciated, I think) . Perhaps some Science Fiction fans didnât find his style sufficiently exciting; as for the mainstream reader, there was and still seems to be prejudice against sci-fi . When Margaret Atwood was on Front Row recently to promote her latest book âThe Year of the Floodâ it was amusing to hear her twist and turn to deny that it was sci-fi without alienating those readers who *like* the genre. I donât remember her mentioning âdystopianâ, or she could have dodged the issue nicely.
Do you really think a lot of (young) people today donât know the origins of âBig Brotherâ? I thought it was still on the school curriculum, but heaven knows from where I got that idea.
Radio 4 has done some tremendous sci-fi dramatisations. I heard âThe Grass is Greenerâ recently, and thought it was brilliant; amazing how quickly civilisation breaks down when there is such fear and such scarce resources.
I wonder how easy it is now to find out what the Russian dramatisation was. In the good old days, one could ring up the Beeb and some nice man or woman would go and find out what that music/book/programme was.........
Ermintrude, One of my sisters has recommended âNoughts and Crossesâ to me and I must remember to grab it next time I visit her. I have read Meg Rosoffâs âHow I Live Nowâ, though; it had tremendous reviews and won some awards when it came out two or three years back, irrc. I thought it was a tremendously good read, but found it rather fizzled out at the end.
Iâve vaguely heard of âUgliesâ. Reminds me of the satirical dystopian novel âFacial Justiceâ (1960) by L.P. Hartley (he of âThe Go-Betweenâ fame), in which Conformity and Modesty in all things are paramount, and Envy and Pride (hop, hiss, spit) are despised and punished. Women are pressured into having plastic surgery, and can choose from a narrow range of "Beta faces"â the plainer women might feel it an upgrade, but Jael 97(the protagonist) is devastated at the prospect of having her beauty and individuality removed. [Jael because everyone has to be named after âsinnersâ, 97 because shis only one of many women who have been given the name Jael.]
whippet walker, Iâd not head of âA State of Denmarkâ but it sounds classic dystopian to me. I had to look up Derek Raymond, and see he also wrote under the name Robin Cook (not the one who wrote "Coma". He certainly had an, erm, colourful life and I can well understand him having a jaundiced view of things which permeated into his writing.
Actually, thinking of the "Coma" Robin Cook, I wonder if his books could be described as dystopian. On second thoughts, I think probably not because, although the settings are usually at the cutting edge of medical technology, they are not actually futuristic; they are more concerned with the mystery/thriller/horror element than actual dystopia, anyway.
Rusty -
Message 22
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Do you really think a lot of (young) people today donât know the origins of âBig Brotherâ? I thought it was still on the school curriculum, but heaven knows from where I got that idea.
Ěý
I think if you get Orwell at school, you're far more likely to get Animal Farm.
And yes, I really do think that about the origins of BB. Say you're 20 now, you'd have been born 1990, and this is BB's 11th year in the UK? So it would have been around since you were 9, and it's far, far more visible in popular culture than Orwell is, and a lot of people just don't read books. Of course, there will always be exceptions, and maybe with this being the last BB, it will change again in time. -
Message 23
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Rwth, is John Wyndhamâs âThe Year Dotâ a short story from a collection? If so and you happen to have the book to hand, I should be grateful if you would let me know the title so I can try and get hold of it. I am not a huge fan of short stories on the whole, but sci-fi and its offshoots seem to lend themselves to this format, and Iâve got at least one of Wyndhamâs short story collections; it doesnât include âThe Year Dotâ though.
I canât think why I havenât read any John Brunner. Just looking at his output now some of them definitely fall into the dystopian group.
Well, I havenât read Robert Nyeâs âMerlinâ so shouldnât really hazard a guess, but just from the title I should have thought it would fall at least as much into the category of magic, fantasy as dystopia. So many overlaps and grey areas, arenât there?
Ali, I do hope you like âThe Robber Brideâ, which I thought showed a warmer side to Atwood than one usually gets.
âCloud Atlasâ has been on my list for ages, but I keep missing it at the library (I need to cut down on buying books, especially if I am not pretty sure I will like them enough to re-read). I'll let you know what I make of it when I have read it.
I donât know about Robert Heinlein's stuff fitting into the dystopian category. At least one of his books is listed on Wikipediaâs list, âThe Moon Is A Harsh Mistressâ, which I havenât read. Hmmm, Iâve tended to think of him more on the Sci-Fi verging on Horror spectrum, but thatâs probably just me; I think I am making up my own categories as I go along! Itâs ages since Iâve read anything by him though.
Heinlein was one of the Big Three, wasnât he, the other two being Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov (the most accessible and human/humane of them I think)? I was wondering about Asimov too, does he fall into the dystopian category? I think possibly not, but that might be because I read him way before Iâd ever heard of the term dystopia.
Anyway, that is something we can debate when you introduce your Book of the Month thread on his âCaves of Steelâ in September [shameless plug, folks].
Rusty -
Message 24
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
is John Wyndhamâs âThe Year Dotâ a short story from a collection? If so and you happen to have the book to hand, I should be grateful if you would let me know the title so I can try and get hold of it. I am not a huge fan of short stories on the whole, but sci-fi and its offshoots seem to lend themselves to this format, and Iâve got at least one of Wyndhamâs short story collections; it doesnât include âThe Year Dotâ though.
Ěý
Googling suggests it may be John Lymington, not John Wyndham.
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Message 25
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
SeaNy, Iâm pretty sure Iâve said this to you before in a previous thread, but I think sci-fi (and its offshoots) have some of the most wonderful titles: âThe Sheep Look Upâ, âDo Androids Dream of Electric Sheepâ (filmed as âBlade Runnerâ), âThe Doors of His Face, the Lamp of His Mouthâ, âSupertoys Last All Summer Longâ (filmed as Artificial Intelligence: A.I). I could go on......
Going back to âThe Sheep Look Upâ, I think the best dystopian novels *are* uncannily prophetic, even when the themes are ostensibly very different from each other. Although this book doesnât sound a bundle of laughs, I really msut read it, though perhaps it is verging on the Horror genre. I seem to recall you enjoy the Horror genre (well, the good quality stuff). It really creeps me out, but if it is yoked to sci-fi or technology, I find it bearable, whereas the supernatural is a step too far for me.
âThe Sheep Look Upâ sounds as if it might make a brilliant film in the right hands, but too confusing for a radio adaptation.
sj, I canât remember when I first read/heard the word âdystopianâ. I think it might have been when reading reviews of one of J.G. Ballardâs books, so somewhere in 1980s or 90s. I loved the term, and after that seemed to see it used every time I read about the genre, including seeing it applied to works by Huxley, Orwell and H.G. Wells.
Yes, Iâm sure you are right about Animal Farm, Bearhug. I hated that book, btw. I really, really didnât want the pigs to take the place of humans. Very literal-minded, me.
I suppose there still are (and will be) some young people who read modern classics. Iâm glad to say my cousins (younger than me with smallish children) are great readers, and it looks as if all their children are too â though since the oldest is only eight, I guess that could change as other interests take precedence.
Rusty
P.S. Bearhug, Just seen last your post - thanks for the info on "The Year Dot". -
Message 26
Posted by Rwth of the Cornovii (U2570790) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:44 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 25
Yes, thanks very much Bearhug. I was looking for it, but couldn't find it in Amazon or anywhere else, then saw your post and stopped looking. I had remembered the title, but not the author. It was a very good book though.
I don't know if the novella "Flowers for Algernon" by Daniel Keyes counts as a dystopian work, but when I illegally taped the Tom Courtenay starring play on the wireless, it overwhelmed my daughter and her gran when they listened to it. I think it is a jewel of its own kind. The Ö÷˛Ľ´óĐă also put on the play "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M Miller but maybe I didn't know how to appreciate it. It is more disturbing than frightening, like Flowers for Algernon, but the punchline is quite awesome. -
Message 27
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Raymond Briggs 'When the wind blows' fits on the dystopian list doen't it. Impossible to read without wanting to howl at the child-like faith the Briggs have in the useless government leaflet; and at small things like thinking they can pop to the chemist next morning.
I do recall us having instructions once to make a shelter and supply it with water and tinned goods and a bucket and to wet the sheet hung over the door. 'Chocolate teapot' springs to mind. -
Message 28
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Silverjenny - I had completely forgotten 'When The Wind Blows', but yes it was heartbreaking. I just googled it, and didn't realise the music was by Roger Waters and David Bowie. Such a contrasting tale to âThe Snowmanâ.
Rusters â On the whole I donât think Asimov falls completely into the dystopian range, although there are elements of his books which could be said to reflect that genre. I think that ultimately, although not a âjollyâ writer, he does seem to offer a more hopeful outlook in general. But yes, what you said about âoverlaps and grey areasâ - absolutely. (Yes thanks, by the way, really enjoying âThe Robber Brideâ). Personally, I donât think that Heinleinâs âThe Moon is a Harsh Mistressâ fits this category, but some of his other books definitely do. Another one âStranger in a Strange Landâ â yes I think this is one.
I havenât read âFarenheit 451â but I am aware of it, and for me a life without books is unimaginable, and indeed quite a frightening thought. Maybe this is why I havenât read it â canât bear to even contemplate such a world.
Has anyone mentioned J Neil Schulmann â Iâm thinking âThe Rainbow Cadenzaâ â another book which depicts a society where women are treated like breeding machines, or as toys. Definitely one for the list.
xx -
Message 29
Posted by Hebe (U1477254) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Sat, 03 Jul 2010 16:53 GMT, in reply to Rusters in message 23
I'd never think to put The Moon is a Harsh Mistress in the dystopian category - maybe some of his others but not that one. Seems strange.
I love John Wyndham, I think the Kraken Wakes is my favourite but they are all regular rereads. Though if we're excluding alien invasion from dystopias that counts it out.
I do quite enjoy a good dystopia as a read, and I'd say its one of the reads in which I often find myself thinking "what would I do" if I found myself in such an environment, which I'm not sure I do with many other things I read.
Re Orwell and school - I "did" 1984 for O level - a long time ago (before 1984 indeed) and a year of indepth study of it has put me off forever. Along with a lot of Wilfred Owen it wasn't a very jolly year of study.. -
Message 30
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Rwth, I donât know whether âFlowers for Algernonâ really counts as a âclassicâ dystopian work, as it is basically about one particular manâs (and mouse's) experiences in an otherwise ânormalâ world, but I think it might slip through the wire. Itâs a rather sad and very thought-provoking story, anyway.
Iâve never got around to âA Canticle for Leibowitzâ, but you saying the punchline is quite awesome has definitely piqued my interest. In fact, the recommendations on this thread and some of the books on Wikipediaâs list could happily keep me occupied for the foreseeable future. Iâm much cheered, because I am becoming less and less enthused by new novels coming out. Gone are the days when I turned first to the reivews pages in the Sundays.
sj, âWhen the Wind Blowsâ I think definitely fits into the dystopian category.
It really is such a heartbreaking book, and made me very angry too. It has reminds me now of what my great-aunt said about being an ARP warden during WWII. In the first few months of the War, people were just advised to put a saucepan over the head and get under the kitchen table when there was an air raid.
Frankly, if there is a next time, I hope I am caught by the initial blast so donât have to endure a slow, painful and undignified end.
Rusty -
Message 31
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Ali, yes, absolutely â Asimovâs world seems very congenial, especially compared to the bleakness in true dystopian fiction.
I recorded the film âFarenheit 451â when it was on television recently, but have to admit Iâve put off watching it so far, though it is said to be a very good adaptation (Julie Christie and Oskar Werner).
It might be interesting to read âThe Rainbow Cadenzaâ and âThe Handmaidâs Taleâ (again!) at roughly the same time to compare and contrast. Good to see the theme tackled from a male authorâs perspective.
Hebe, I love John Wyndham too. His ovels (and particularly some of his short stories)can be quite dark and unhappy, but there is always an innate decency in his main characters, which gives one comfort. Someone pointed out a while ago in another thread that he treated his female characters well - they were mostly intelligent, independent and brave â and this isnât something one can say about many of his contemporaries in the sci-fi genre.
I know exactly what you mean about wondering how I would fare in such an environment. Realistically, I suppose if one had always lived in one, one wouldnât know any better. Sitting here, though, I wouldnât relish it.
Iâd also hate to live through the turmoil of my (this)society breaking down, let alone live through an apocalyptic disaster. I found âChildren of Menâ by P.D. James quite disturbing because I felt something like this could happen. When it comes to mainstream sci-fi, though, like H.G. Wells âWar of the Worldsâ it just seems like some adventure story that I canât really relate to.
Youâd have thought the curriculum could have lightened your load by giving you *something* to laugh at, wouldnât you?!
There are some reviews of science-fiction and fantasy (wish they wouldnât lump them together) in todayâs Times. âThe Passageâ by Justin Cronin has a terrific write up: âIf you take only one book away with you this summer make it [this book].â The review goes on to say that it is a âterrifying, apocalyptic thriller populated by sympathetic, believable charactersâ. I must say the âsympatheticâ bit would make a welcome change.
Also reviewed was âThe Mammoth Book of Apocalyptic SFâ edited by Mike Ashley. It contains classics by Fritz Leiber and Robert Silverberg and also new stuff from contemporary authors; one by Alastair Reynolds, (don't know him)"Sleepover" is singled out for particular praise.
Rusty -
Message 32
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
I recorded the film âFarenheit 451â when it was on television recently, but have to admit Iâve put off watching it so far, though it is said to be a very good adaptation (Julie Christie and Oskar Werner).Ěý
It is; I saw it then. -
Message 33
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Rusters
It might be interesting to read âThe Rainbow Cadenzaâ and âThe Handmaidâs Taleâ (again!) at roughly the same time to compare and contrast. Good to see the theme tackled from a male authorâs perspective Ěý
Indeed it might. From what I remember, and itâs years since I read it, âThe Rainbow Cadenzaâ is a far harsher perspective, and a more salacious depiction. It might be quite interesting to read âA Thousand Splendid Sunsâ in the same frame, as it were. I know this is a modern novel, but really, there are some parallels, particularly if measured against âThe Handmaidâs Taleâ.
Again, I find myself wishing I had some John Wyndham to read. I shall have to order some from Amaz*n I think. Can I ask for a recommendation please, for the best first one to read? I have only a hazy recollection of his most popular two or three.
I see you, like me, enjoy reading book reviews. Honestly, if I won millions, Iâd just buy every single book that I enjoyed the review of. Just dozens of books a week. Iâm very interested in âThe Mammoth Book of Apocalyptic SFâ that you mentioned, and I shall look that one up, as they say, forthwith.
xx -
Message 34
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Oooh, have missed this.
Just wanted to say I saw a few references upthread to Atwood's Year of the Flood - I have just finished it - got it from the library - it's a long time since I read Oryx and Crake, but I preferred that to Year of the Flood.
Saying that, Flood is very good, but I just loved Oryx and Crake. I'd recommend Flood anyway...
Another John Wyndham fan, I too enjoyed the Chrysalids.
Cat x -
Message 35
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Ali, I'd be willing to bet you'd get different recommendations from everyone re John Wyndham. I'd recommend "The Chrysalids", and also collections of his short stories/novellas, many of which are particularly moving/exciting/weird-in-a-good-way.
I didn't much like "Midwich Cuckoos", but that might have been partly because it seemed more horror than anything else, which I'm not keen on.
Oh, just seen that there are two Wyndham postumous novels and several short story collections that I don't remember reading. Goody.
Ah, Cat, perhaps I ought to have another go at "The Year of the Flood", then. I think part of the problem was that it wasn't what I expected. Then again, Atwood's books can be very different from each other, so I'm not sure what I *did* expect, really.
I'm glad so many of us like John Wyndham. BTW, I thought the recentish Ö÷˛Ľ´óĐă television dramatisation of "The Day of the Triffids" was very disappointing.
Rusty -
Message 36
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Hi Rusters - I've seen 'The chrysalids' mentioned once or twice so that's the one then. On the Wish List.
Cheers
xx -
Message 37
Posted by doctoryes (U14310519) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Marge Piercy's 'Woman on the Edge of Time' is both a dystopian and utopian novel, having as its premise the possibility of alternative futures...published back in 74 I think, but still a fantastic read...
peace
DrDx -
Message 38
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
DrD, I've heard of Marge Piercy, of course, and "Woman on the Edge of Time" is in my local library, and often often debated whether to borrow it. It sounds awfully shallow to to say this, but the library copy is so tatty and even looks grubby, that it has put me off.
Following your recommendation, I think I shall have to buy it.
I've just looked the author up. Seems like quite a formidable woman.
Rusty -
Message 39
Posted by Gil Holroyd (U14164075) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
Ooh, interesting thread: so many wonderful titles I'd forgotten about and now want to dig out to re-read - and so many I've meant to read but then they've slipped my mind (well, you should see the height of my 'to read' stack of books as it is!)
Here's another vote for 'The Chrysalids' being an excellent starting point for anyone new to Wyndham.
And yes, I remember the screen adaptation of 'Farenheight 451' as being an extremely faithful, and thoughtful, adaptation of the novel.
May I put in a word for William Gibson's 'Sprawl' trilogy (Neuromancer, Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive)? I know they're not to everyone's taste, but I found them gripping: a terrifying portrait of a world in thrall to banking corporations and vast multinationals (so nothing new there, then). Also damned fine, fast-paced thrillers!
And a personal favourite: 'Dreamsnake' by Vonda N McIntyre. The story of a healer travelling through a post-apocolyptic, irradiated landscape, using snake venom to heal, or give blessed release. McIntyre's subtle undermining of gender stereotypes is fascinating, imo.
Right, I'm off for a rummage through my bookshelves.
Gx -
Message 40
Posted by pahnda (U14386869) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
As an Atwood fan I'm enjoying this thread. I read a lot of SF in my teens and the names Wyndham, Christopher and Lymington take me back many years.
I wonder if anyone else used to enjoy the rather bizarre novels of Rosemary Timperley, which are sadly now all out of print. I used to devour them!
I recently read 'The Minotaur Takes a Cigarette Break' having seen it recommended somewhere on this MB; a strangely engaging book, and thanks to whoever it was that mentioned it. -
Message 41
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 5th July 2010
Gil, I tried to read William Gibson's "Neuromancer" when it first came out in the 1980s, but found it incomprehensible. I think it was because I didn't know much about computers* (we had fairly uncomplicated ones at work), and because Gibson is, I gather, a techie whizz. One of my sisters is a big Gibson fan though, and has all his books, so I'll grab them next time I'm at her place.
Thanks for the recommendation for "Dreamsnake". I've not come across Vonda N McIntire. I don't know about this particular, but some sci-fi/dystopian books have such lurid, unfortunate (imo) covers that it can put you off unless you know already know something about it (thinking Zena Warrior Princess-type covers, for instance).
I read recentlythat authors have little or no say on the cover designs of their books, which must be frustrating to say the least. That said, I should have thought best-selling writers might have some influence at least.
Good to see another Atwood fan, Poster C. I hadn't heard of Rosemary Timperley; from what I can find now, she was a prolific writer, especially of short stories, and many of them were horror/supernatural. She has the kind of name that makes you think she would write romances, but obviously not.
There is quite a grey area where different genres and sub-genres meet. I've been trying to think how I would catagorise "The Minotaur Takes a Cigarette Break" (wonderful title btw). Umm, satirical mythology-fantasy-dystopia maybe?!
Rusty
*Of course, I am a techie whizz myself now. Not. -
Message 42
Posted by doctoryes (U14310519) on Monday, 5th July 2010
Hey Rusters,
...can definitely recommend pretty much anything by Marge Piercy, who appears, indeed, a most formidable person. 'Woman on the Edge of Time' is one of 2 SF/Dystopian novels she wrote - the other is 'Body of Glass'. The rest of her work is contemporary 'personal is political' fiction, with a couple or three historical novels also 'Sex Wars' (19th century New York), 'Gone to Soldiers' (the home front in WW2 USA) and 'City of Darkness, City of Light' (French Revolution)...
...but yeah, Woman on the Edge of Time is worth buying, specially as you're going to want to make your friends read it...
innit
DrDx -
Message 43
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Monday, 5th July 2010
I think I am going to have to stop looking at this thread. My pile of to-read books is already tottering!
-
Message 44
Posted by ForeverAmbridge (U14194783) on Tuesday, 6th July 2010
I heard something else - either a play or a classic serial, probably about 4 years ago, possibly a Russian author - reminded me of 1984, but I can't remember author/title or exact storyline. (So that's a really helpful insight, Bearhug...)
Scuse me for jumping in but
Could it be 'WE" by Evgenii Zmyatin, Bearhug?
Written in (or at least published) in 1921 Zamyatin foresaw the growth of the totalitarian society long before Huxley or Orwell.
Fantastic book in both senses of the word.& superior to them both in its ironic humour.
In 'We' the citizens live inside a Glass Wall where nothing surprising happens. Outside the Glass Wall is the chaos of nature I could go on but here's a Wiki link.
-
Message 45
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Tuesday, 6th July 2010
Yes, I think that's it - thank you.
-
Message 46
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Tuesday, 6th July 2010
Thanks for that link, foreverambridge, what an impressive sounding work. I couldn't find any reference to it being produced as a play, but I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.
As silverjenny said, the list grows longer..
xx -
Message 47
Posted by Twin-Lions (U3870602) on Wednesday, 7th July 2010
Gosh loads to think about here, and beg, borrow, steal - or even buy!
I suppose I would quibble a bit about the Crysalids - the telepathic children are a bit like aliens, and have their own super-telepathic alien born among them who further disrupts, but then saves.
Genuinely dystopian in my view is The Lord of the Flies. My sixteen yr old has just read it and found it haunting.
And I love H G Wells, would any of his tales count as dystopian? The Time Machine? I do think he was rather the opposite of John Wyndham, who always had a ray of hope, in always incorporating a corrupt seed. -
Message 48
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 7th July 2010
Yes, I suppose true dystopian is a book which holds out no hope whatsoever. And 'the Lord of the Flies' is a truly chilling read, and lays bare all the worst in human nature. I've not read it for years, but I've never forgotten it.
Talking about the worst in human nature, the words 'do it to Julia' from George Orwell's 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' sum it up for me. Ultimate betrayal. Definitely dystopian.
On that happy thought...xx -
Message 49
Posted by Lynnie P (U3585914) on Wednesday, 7th July 2010
Just popped in because I didn't know the word "dystopian" - now I am dying to drop it into the conversation somewhere.
I have only read 1984 and the Handmaid's Tale that have been mentioned so far and they were both so bleak I swore I would never read another like them.
Back to utopia for me (I am a natural optimist I think - even though I get a bit blue when life turns out not as well as I had hoped).
LynnieP x -
Message 50
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 7th July 2010
ForeverAmbridge, Iâve been reading your link about Evgenii Zymatin. âWeâ sounds a very disturbing book about an incredibly complex society; hellish hard work to adapt it for radio. Just thinking - EZ had first-hand experience of living under a totalitarian regime, of course, which must have given him a lot to go on.
Twin-Lions, I felt very shaken after reading âThe Lord of the Fliesâ; a classic dystopian novel, but I donât think I could face reading it again.
The Time Machineâ would definitely count as dystopian, wouldnât it? However, thinking about Wells, I wouldnât include âThe War of the Worldsâ,for instance, as I consider it fairly straightforward sci-fi. I havenât read his âIsland of Dr. Moreauâ but it sounds a mixture of sci-fi and horror to me.
I do take your point about the Chrysalids â but then I did cover myself by saying that there were grey areas when it comes to categorising it!
BTW, I think Wyndham was a story-teller first, rather than having a political agenda as did many others
âDystopianâ is a great word, isnât it Lynnie. Wouldnât surprise me if, now youâve come across it, you will hear/read it again before long. Spooky how often that happens to me, anyway.
I am finding it more difficult to read bleak or harrowing books as I get older, hence not being able to read âLord of the Fliesâ again. However, I still find the various concepts of dystopian worlds fascinating. Itâs horror and the supernatural that I cannot read at any cost.
I do understand about not liking the very bleak stuff, but do give John Wyndham a go. There is something innately decent about his protoganists and his books end by giving one a feeling of hope, if not necessarily a totally happy ending.
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