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Not good enough
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Sunday, 12th September 2010
What I wish someone had told me forty years ago.
When my mother died one of the things I thought was that it was now too late to ever be good enough for her.
The other day, a friend said that maybe I also thought that my mother wasn't good enough for me.
Why didn't someone ever say that to me before?
All those years of desperately wanting my mother's approval, of desperately wanting her to understand, of desperately wanting to be good enough, but I never simply accepted that she wasn't ever going to be that sort of a mother.
She wasn't ever going to approve of me. She wasn't ever going to understand. I wasn't ever going to be good enough for her.
Why has it taken my mother's death for me to begin to accept this, to begin to feel free? Why couldn't I have simply got to grips with this years ago? -
Message 2
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Sunday, 12th September 2010
Sunny, I didn't want your post to vanish without a reply but I'm not sure how relevant my response will be.
I suggest that you didn't get to grips with it years ago because you were still hoping to gain her approval. Now she is dead it is not going to happen so you can stop trying and simply deal with it.
Remember, I'm just a message board poster and I can talk as much psycho-babble nonsense as the next poster so don't read too much into my interpretation. -
Message 3
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Sunday, 12th September 2010
That makes sense.
I guilt-tripped horribly when my mother died over all the horrid things I thought about her. I struggled to remember any good stuff. I knew that we loved each other, but that was about it.
I typed a lot of stuff here that I've just deleted. The hurtful things she said over the years. But she can't say them any more. -
Message 4
Posted by Sister Primrose of the Red Tinsel Flag (U5405579) on Sunday, 12th September 2010
Sunny,
My Dad had very little contact with his own father as a child or adult. When the old man died my Dad was knocked for six. It took him and us a long time to understand that what he was mourning was the loss of possibility. Things would never now be different than how they were.
Perhaps your Mother's death was the only way you could be freed to think the unthinkable and now you're free to think it it's coming out all jumbled up. I hope time helps you unpick the knots.
PP -
Message 5
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Sunday, 12th September 2010
Thank you.
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Message 6
Posted by Billycan (U14259232) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I have come to realise, many years after my parents deaths, that they did their best for me and my brother & sister.
I now understand that they also were victims of their upbringings.
How I wish that I could say to my mom & dad that I now understand why they did/say what they did.
Billy -
Message 7
Posted by Michael Alexander Kearsley (U1675895) on Monday, 13th September 2010
People tend to idealise their parents when they are growing up not realising that they have their own fixations, that they probably realise that they are flawed and are trying not to be, even if they don't see their parents much they tend to have an impression of those parents formed when they were very young that is heavily influenced by false impressions of others and machievellian manipulation.
As they get into adulthood the person starts regretting copying aspects of the person, starts wondering if their own image of the parent perhaps was based on misinterpretation, they lose the magical notions of parents as somehow being extraordinary and realise that they are some among a number of people, albeit they share more of a genetic and cultural heritage than others.
Then the parent dies and suddenly all kinds of things that were suppressed by the family about that person suddenly come out, it turns out that things were very different than they had realised, suddenly a lot of other things fit together, even if what the parent did and thought appeared to make no sense at all.
At least it seems to be that way a lot of the time with a lot of people. -
Message 8
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Sunny, I also felt that I never lived up to my mother's expectations. She wasn't actively destructive, like some parents I'm aware of, but I always had a faint sense of being a disappointment. I wasn't pretty enough, I wasn't conventionally feminine enough, I wasn't 'nice' enough, I didn't have what it took to take myself off to the tennis club in my late teens and bag a comfortably-off boyfriend... In my 30s I became quite bitter about it and sometimes found it very difficult to be around her. Then she became terminally ill and I was able to help look after her in her final year and somehow it didn't seem to matter any more. And I began to realise how much she had been looking for my approval, too, and I had denied it.
It is much easier, I find, to love someone when they are dead and they aren't there to complicate matters. And watching her die with stoical dignity I found enormous respect for her and began to understand her more - and appreciate that stiff upper lip that I had hated for so many years. I also began to understand more about her life and how she had become the woman she was.
Now, I think back with regret at the difficult years we had and miss her terribly. I sometimes do things and find myself wishing she was here to share the experience. Ageing helps: I can see what a self-important, egotistical woc* I was when I was younger. And I wish I could have an hour with her now to explain and say all the things I wasn't freed up to say until she was dead.
A parent's death can be very liberating.
* anagram -
Message 9
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:25 GMT, in reply to Primrose Path in message 4
"Mourning was the loss of possibility" is a good way of expressing it,I think.
Also, SC, when we are little children, we tend to think that anything that happens to us is normal - that's why children can be so vulnerable.
It's only as we get (sometimes, much) older that we sometimes think "It wasn't me at fault - I was a child.." -
Message 10
Posted by cookiepuss (U1485231) on Monday, 13th September 2010
You are not alone, Sunny. I was never quite good enough for my mum either.
In my case, firstly I was born female when she desperately wanted a boy and secondly, I have a slight disability due to mum catching German measles in early pregnancy. My sister also feels she wasn't perfect either, simply because she was also a girl. Mum had to wait for her grandsons to arrive to have her longed-for males - then she got six of them and three granddaughters too!
Dad was never bothered about having two daughters and no sons, though he did enjoy a kickabout with ES and YS when they were old enough (sadly dad died before any of my sister's children or my YD were born)
All the best
=^..^= -
Message 11
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Bookmarking for later. A fascinating topic and one that I can really relate to not just in relation to my parents but also my husband.
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Message 12
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I find it a little difficult with my father sometimes. I was so much closer to him than to my mother, even though he was so very much more successful than her and never quite got his head round the notion that I wasn't as gifted as him. He misses my mother dreadfully, whereas I don't. I don't mean that I don't miss her, just that there's as much relief as sorrow.
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Message 13
Posted by Retired-Rural-Person (U8479978) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:01 GMT, in reply to whitbyrose in message 11
Sunny, This is so sad, almost more for your mother who doesn't seem to have appreciated what she had in you, than for you. So pleased you are finding the positive liberating aspects of it now. One thing for certain, I bet your father is appreciating you more and more as he experiences your loyalty in the face of difficulties, and perhaps your sense of humour -
Message 14
Posted by Retired-Rural-Person (U8479978) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:04 GMT, in reply to Retired-Rural-Person in message 13
Oh rats, cross posted, and maybe not saying the right thing there as a result.
Put me down as well meaning. -
Message 15
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 13th September 2010
There's nothing wrong with what you said. It was comforting.
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Message 16
Posted by Retired-Rural-Person (U8479978) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:15 GMT, in reply to Sunny Clouds in message 15
Thank you, Sunny -
Message 17
Posted by Penstemon (U4429639) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I too am fascinated by this discussion as I have had a very distructive and disapointing relationship with my mother.
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Message 18
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I don't think I'd have come up with the phrase destructive and disappointing for my relationship with my mother, but now you've used it, I think that it does fit one side of my relationship. I was lucky that we loved each other, though.
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Message 19
Posted by Penstemon (U4429639) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Well it was destructive for me, as I craved attention and didn't get it, self harming as a teenager and having sex at a very early age.
My mother (and my father to a certain extent) just basically ignored me and left me and my siblings 'to get on with it'. She was an only child herself, sent away to boarding school while her parents lived in upper middle class wealth abroad who showed her no affection either. She just hasn't got the knowledge or instinct to show any affection/love. I never ever remember her giving me a kiss or a cuddle. -
Message 20
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Sausages, that's horrid. My heart goes out to you.
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Message 21
Posted by jane c (U2234970) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Empathising with you very intensely here, Sunny.
It was only after my mother died (and I spent the last 5 months of her life with her to nurse and help her, too) that I had any kind of counselling.
What I've learned and put into practice since 1991 has given me a kind of "freedom", too.
But also deep regrets that I wasn't able to move forward *with* her in our complicated relationship.
jx -
Message 22
Posted by welshteddy (U3680635) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I think that, even as adults with children, pasts, of our own, we forget that our parents are the products of their upbringing.
I remember being shocked a few years ago when my father in law told me that his mother always had a photo of his brother by her bed, but never one of him, but he was the one who has taken her on holiday, out to Sunday lunch etc.....He was jealous. He was 78 years old and still felt the jealousy of his childhood. Why was I shocked? I don't know. -
Message 23
Posted by Penstemon (U4429639) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Thanks sunny you are very kind. I have totally come to terms with it now, and expect (and get) nothing from my Mother. Our relationship is frosty and infrequent. she is now an alcoholic, living alone with no friends. I do what I can for her practically but thats it really.
I have really tried hard to break the mold with my own children, but I fear that my adult relationships (with the opposite sex) have suffered because of it.
Thats enough about me.. but I hope it helps you to know that you are certainly not alone in your feelings of not being good enough, -
Message 24
Posted by Dame_Celia_ Molestrangler (U14257909) on Monday, 13th September 2010
there's a very interesting book called "Toxic Parents". I have it. Worth a read by anyone here with problems with their parents.
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Message 25
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I've read it but I wasn't too keen on the bit that seemed to be about confronting one's parents.
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Message 26
Posted by hazeyjane (U11228450) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I can relate to this too Sunny. A book that I found helpful was When You and Your Mother can't be Friends by Victoria Secunda. It explores the different dynamics in mother/daughter relationships and has helped me to come to terms with some of the hurt in the past.
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Message 27
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I agree with you welshteddy - I've been doing a lot of family research recently and things that have never really been clear to me in the past have become a whole lot easier to understand. It's scary how things that happened generations ago can resonate down the years.
Fee -
Message 28
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 13th September 2010
I've had therapy in the past, but whilst my father was comfortable with that, my mother wouldn't discuss anything. I wasn't supposed to have any problems with our relationship, or rather if I did, I was supposed to maintain a stiff upper lip and say nothing about them.
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Message 29
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Monday, 13th September 2010
Hi now home and able to give this some attention
Im going to cut a very long story short (I made a decision when I came into ML that I wouldnt say things that could be construed as negative about anyone as it is my perception of the situation and they have no right of reply)but suffice to say that during an intense and prolonged period of reflection over the past few years ( since I gave up alcohol) I have come to terms with some of the difficulties that I have had in the past with my parents. I used to get so worked up about things ( examples being fulsome praise about people who didnt have cats, were thin and neat, took their children to mass every morning) but somehow made peace with it and came to terms with the fact that we are all cast into roles by people in life and that no matter what we do if people have a perception of us it will not be swayed from no matter what we do. Because my role has been to be strong, never need any support, to organise things etc etc and to not have a right to any opinions that went against the received parental wisdom I have turned into that person and have become massively independent and capable of working through things. I no longer get upset when everything revolves around my brother as frankly lovely as he is I would rather be me than him and it has enabled me to better cope with my relationship with my husband which again with regard to roles has always involved me having to provide a lot of support and to not having any interest shown in my life outwith the bit where our lives collide.
Having come to these realisations has made things so much easier for me. I know that I cant change things but I can be a different type of parent in that I hope that I relate to my children where they are rather as has been my experience only with the bits that I approve of with the rest dismissed or disapproved of.
I hope that you can find some kind of closure Sunny. Im glad that I came to terms with things when I did and that I can feel more positive about how things are in that I accept them and work round them. -
Message 30
Posted by CC Growing old disgracefully (U13344869) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
My Mother wanted a dainty little Shirley Temple girl and instead she got a big girl like me. From birth (when she told everyone I was the largest baby there) and all my life I was told all the time how big I was.
It was much later in life I heard from her sister that Mum never got on with her brothers and sisters which explains why I never was close to her. As a child i saw it all as my fault but now I know not all of it was (but some probably was)
I have 3 grandchildren and spend quite a lot of time with youngest (age 3) who looks very much like his Dad rather my DD. To me it does not matter who the child is or what they are like.All 3 are equally loved by me. -
Message 31
Posted by CC Growing old disgracefully (U13344869) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
Thank you so much for this thread. I have been very down this past couple of days and I can truthfully say that hearing about others who have the same experiences or similer experiences to myself has brought tears to my eyes. Often tears are a a form of healing.
We all go through different seasons and times in life. We are brought by our parents. We look after them in their later years. I am now a Mother and Grandmother but those childhood memories are the ones that stay with you. -
Message 32
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
A year, maybe two, ago I was reading about Laing's concept of the schizophrenogenic parent (which I don't entirely agree with) and I came up against the concept of the double bind. I'd heard of it, but never applied it to my own situation.
Suddenly, something clicked. Overtly the message I had had from both parents was "be successful" but I had also had a message from my mother, repeated in many guises, that I hadn't been consciously aware of, along the lines of "don't take risks" "don't offend people" "don't..."
It's an impossible situation to be in. How do you ever succeed without taking risks? I've now decided that if I am to make anything of the rest of my life, I must take some risks, but I feel rather frightened to do so.
It's not that I've never taken risks. I have. But it was a matter of doing what seemed to be expected or approved of. Jumping out of an aeroplane wasn't about taking a risk, it was about obeying an officer who said "I'm not having anyone in my platoon who won't jump out of an aeroplane." I don't know how else to explain what sort of risks I do or don't mean. -
Message 33
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
Sunny, that is interesting what you say about wanting to take risks. I'm very risk averse and so tend to opt for coping strategies but if the end result is that life/relationships/self worth are better it doesn't matter how we get there.
This has obviously touched a chord for a few people and as ever for me highlights why it is important to break cycles of behaviour that can occur through the generations -
Message 34
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
For all that I have grieved the loss of my mother, I have also felt liberated. I don't feel able to tell my father how I feel because he misses her deeply.
I don't know if it's not too late to undo some of the damage done. -
Message 35
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:10 GMT, in reply to Sunny Clouds in message 34
SC, I think I understand about risk taking v the "being sensible" - I've struggled with that from my parents too, but I've ended up overcoming it, or starting too, I think.
2 years ago, my health improved enough so that I could begin the long haul towards riding properly again; as a child and young adult, I'd been a competent and fearless rider, but I think it had a lot to do with trying to get my dad to approve of me.
18 months ago, I started riding a horse who had a really dodgy reputation, and gradually have retrained, at great personal risk it so she's lovely and well thought of, buying her along the way.
Last year, it hit me, as I was walking across the farmyard where I keep her "I love doing this without my dad being in control of everything" - it took until I was in my 40s, but at least I'm getting there. -
Message 36
Posted by MV Whitby May Rose (U6862284) on Tuesday, 14th September 2010
That is great to hear CB
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Message 37
Posted by Dame_Celia_ Molestrangler (U14257909) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
It's interesting what people are saying about not being able to have different opinions without bringing about the parents' disapproval.
If I say anything to my family, it's usually either dismissed without being considered (e.g. excuses are made without actually considering first whether I have a valid point or not) or just completely ignored (stonewalling). It's so different to what I experience with other people. Other people might not agree with me, but they actually argue my point and why it might not actually be valid. -
Message 38
Posted by captainbenayoun (U13326760) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Just to say, again, that this is a really interesting thread. In my case, I was never my Mum's fav child - though oddly enough, her first grandchild, my DD, is her fav.
I/we resolved this issue between us years ago by talking about it. Now we (my sis, DD and I) use it to get Mum to do those things that she should do, like eating.
DD is great at sweet talking her into doing these things, DS is the main stay of this operation, and I come in and do the hard handed things, like telling her she will die if she does not eat. This all sounds quite hard, but all is done in Mum's best interests. We all know our jobs in keeping Mum alive (she is a frail 84, but insits that she is not ready to die. If anyone, as an aside, has any clue/advice on how to get an old, frail person to eat, I would be very grateful) and we all appreciate each others efforts.
It has taken us a few years to get to this position, but we are all pleased to be here. well, apart from the increasingly worrying calls from DS, who is trying to do her best - sigh.
Cap
Cap - hoping Moms latest spell in Hospital will end soon, in a good way. -
Message 39
Posted by Bractondefeated (U3173859) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Sunny Clouds OP wow oh wow oh wow. You can have no idea what your friend's comment means to me. I read your op idly, just frivolling for 10 minutes till I have to go out, and this just had the effect of clouds lifting.
My female parent (cant say the M word cos it didnt apply except biologically) was the M from hell and like you I've felt weighed down with negative feelings but that strikes such a chord. Do thank your friend.
Bracton -
Message 40
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Bracton - I'll tell my friend that someone appreciated her comment.
I never had a chance to resolve things with my mother, because she refused to discuss our relationship. It was very different with my father. When I told him I was having therapy and discussed it a bit, he quoted Larkin's "This be the verse." ("They ____ you up, your Mum and Dad...")
I wish I'd had therapy in my teens. As it is, I don't think the stuff I had really addressed things fully and I'm piecing things together for myself. -
Message 41
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Sunny Clouds - if you get a chance, do read the Victoria Secunda book mentioned upthread. It gives suggestions which you may find helpful on how to deal with the unresolved things when someone has died.
Chin up. Believe it or not, you are not the only one... -
Message 42
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Thanks Lili.
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Message 43
Posted by Kris massblues (U14058894) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Hi Sunny, really interesting thread.
My mother wanted sparky, emotionally strong, stoic children who didn't cry (ever)...she got those, but she also got quiet emotional me...ho hum.
When my Grandma died 10 years ago my mother began a mourning process that continued for a long time. She declared herself as having "always been an orphan", despite being brought up by 2 biological parents. She actually said to last weekend "I'm sure she loved me but anyone would thought she hated me".
It upsets me enormously that my mum felt so unloved, because i spent quite some time with my Grandmother (when living in the same Country) in my late teens, and I am quite sure that my Grandma was very proud of my mum. She certainly greatly admired her intellect.
Ironically, my mum says that both she (and my Dad) are incapable of loving their children, but that she is "very fond" of us all. My siblings and I love our parents, and would do anything just to fill our mother's heart with the love we feel. It breaks my heart when she looks so dismissive when we tell her we love and respect her.
I'm sorry, i know this is different to how you feel, and the mourning you are doing over never having had/and or/felt your mum's love must be as crushing for you as it is for my mother. My heart goes out to you Sunny, it truly does.
kris -
Message 44
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
kris do you know what distinction she makes between loving and being very fond? I sometimes wonder whether people who say that sort of thing (and I've come across it) simply have an unrealistic concept of love.
Fee -
Message 45
Posted by Kris massblues (U14058894) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Hi Fee,
Yes it's an interesting question...except that just this second i realise that she may have said that she was incapable of 'feeling' love for her children. Then is that the same thing?
I can't see how she cannot love us; she has always been there for us. Me in particular, in that i tried very hard to 'escape' from the family from my late teens but she always found me and visited me, even though i quietly resented it.
But perhaps she just doesn't feel it. In the same way she doesn't feel my love (our) for her.
As you rightly say, i think, perhaps she just doesn't understand the distinction, and perhaps this is because she has no maternal love from which to measure. -
Message 46
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:02 GMT, in reply to kris in message 45 <BR /><BR /><QUOTEe>perhaps this is because she has no maternal love from which to measure</QUOTE><BR /><BR />None of us have an absolute standard of "maternal love", though; it's a bit like my assuming that what you see when you say that something's green is what I see - I assume it is, but I don't have any proof.
-
Message 47
Posted by Kris massblues (U14058894) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
By which to measure?
you have no idea how hard i tried not to correct myself, and even now it is wrong i think. Damn.
Talking of 'double bind' (Sunny). my mother presumed me to be quietly stupid, and i was happy with this delusion.
She was often apoplectic at my 'airy-fairy' random brain. However. she has now decided that i am the cleverest person on the planet. And if she says "But look at you, we used to think you were so unacademic!" (said with pride) one more time i shall scream. -
Message 48
Posted by Kris massblues (U14058894) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
True C_B,
But, again, i suppose that if you have never felt anything other than maternal disproval you may have an idealised image of what 'maternal love' should feel like.
Strangelt, my mum said to me once that i was the first one in my family to break the chain and to "Be able to love your children". yet she doesn't equate this with my having felt enough maternal love to have acquired the empathic skills of mothering...
Hmm, does that make sense? I di know what i mean but... -
Message 49
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
That's an interesting question too - I think perhaps they are not - do you think she would say that she has difficulty in feeling emotions of any sort? I do think that people have different capacities to feel things - some of us are more in our heads than in our guts is how I have (rather inelegantly, I must admit) heard it expressed.
Fee -
Message 50
Posted by cookiepuss (U1485231) on Wednesday, 15th September 2010
My Mum was unable to let herself go, for whatever reason. That said, when my first marriage broke up, and I came home from the USA, she hugged me (a very rare occurrence) and comforted me in my distress to the best of her ability. She was not naturally a "mumsie" sort of person. As said above I never really felt "good enough", but Mum did love me as best she could. I did love her, and do miss her, and wish things could have been different, but have to accept what was, and what could not be
=^..^=
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