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Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 1.聽
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
The Caves of Steel, by Isaac Asimov
I wanted to open this discussion with a brief word about the author 鈥 it has to be brief because, quite frankly, to do this man justice I鈥檇 have to write a whole book, and I鈥檓 definitely not up to that.
Isaac Asimov was a scientist, a chemist, and a writer. He was a rationalist and a humanist, and was named Humanist of the Year in 1984 by the American Humanist Association, and from 1985 until his death in 1992 he served as president of the AHA. He was a close friend of Kurt Vonnegut, and also Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek creator. He earned a screen credit on Star Trek: The Motion Picture, for advice he gave during production 鈥 confirming to Paramount Pictures that Roddenberry鈥檚 ideas were legitimate science-fictional extrapolation.
He was a claustrophile, (when young he fantasised about owning a magazine stand in a New York City subway station, where he could read his books and feel enclosed and safe). He was also afraid of flying, and flew only twice in his life, and in fact seldom travelled long distances because of the logistics involved. If he wanted to go long distances, he went by cruise ship. If that wasn鈥檛 possible, well he more or less stayed at home. It is on these personal and deep feelings that this book is based.
He was the inventor of the 鈥楾hree Laws of Robotics鈥, and he also introduced the words 鈥榩ositronic鈥, 鈥榩sychohistory鈥, and 鈥榬obotics鈥 into the English language.
Enough already. Here鈥檚 the stuff about the book.
This, Isaac Asimov鈥檚 11th Novel, was written in 1953/4, and combines two of my personal favourite genres, Crime, and SciFi. Set on a future Earth we find people living in separate buildings, completely enclosed and city sized. Technological development is slow, and xenophobia is rife, robots are hated and feared. And then there are the Spacers, human emigrants from Earth who live a vastly different lifestyle on 50 colonised planets, where they are so isolated from one another that face to face meetings are carefully deliberated and prepared for, they are far more comfortable with their personal robots than they are with each other. Needless to say, Earth people hate and fear the Spacers too.
It is in the City environment of New York, on Earth, that a murder of a Spacer takes place, in a cordoned off sector of the city called Spacetown. The Spacers call in our hero, Elijah Baley, Plain-Clothes Man of the City, to solve this murder, and partner him with his worst nightmare, a robot, R Daneel Olivaw, and this is no ordinary robot, this is a robot who is practically indistinguishable from a human being. This is where the story starts, and we see the partnership, and Elijah, change and evolve. This book must have been revolutionary when it was written in the earli 鈥榝ifties, and even now the messages resonates 鈥 we see our own prejudices and fears laid out for us, maybe in slightly old fashioned terms and format, but it鈥檚 all there. I do so hope you enjoy reading this book.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 2
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:52 GMT, in reply to ali-cat in message 1
Good morning, Ali, and thank you for your introduction.
As a teenager I absolutely ADORED Asimov's writings and read anything of his I could get my hands on. Very, very fond memories of his short stories, whether the Science Fiction ones or the 'Tales of the Black Widowers' 'tec puzzle stories, and of the Foundation books. I was therefore looking forward to reading 'Caves of Steel'.
Oh dear! has to be my present opinon of it. I must have changed in the intervening years, because I found his style very turgid and boring and it kept interfering with my reading of the story. That was a real downer for me.
However, I had to keep reminding myself that this book was written back in the 1950s - it may now seem very trite and obvious in its message but how very revolutionary it must have been back then. The debate between the two visions of society, and how neither have all the answers is very prescient. We can no more live in a world totally devoid of technology than we can in a world totally devoted to it.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 3
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Hi E Yore
Yes, I can see your point, it's a book which needs to be read in a sort of 'fifties' frame of mind. I love it because this was one of his earliest novels, and one of the first of the robotic novels. His later books are rather more sprightly in style, I think.
I also like this book because it explores Asimov's own psyche, fears and obsessions, a sort of insight into a fascinating (to me anyway) man.
We do indeed still face the technology issues, but I think even Asimov didn't predict the way technology would take us - the development of the microchip was just not forseen at all. And one wonders what he would've thought of FaceBook.
But for me, I was more interested in the human reactions depicted in his book - the way the inhabitants of the overcrowded cities were shown to have developed ways of dealing with the over crowding. Avoiding looking directly at each other in the shower rooms, for instance. And the deep suspicion with which robots are regarded - I know the parallels are easy to find but they are nonetheless fascinating. People don't change all that much, then.
I am glad you re-read it, even though you were disappointed.
Have you ever read "The Gods Themselves"? Another favourite of mine.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 4
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:00 GMT, in reply to ali-cat in message 3
Hi Ali! It was a first reading, not a re-reading and I suppose I expected it to live up to the Foundation trilogy or the consummate writing of his short stories, so my expectations were perhaps too high for an early novel.
You are right, of course, that it is the human interaction because of overcrowding, and how the former has adapted to the latter that is interesting. And Asimov's genius in imagining the future - the travel strips, and the games children play with them, being just one. What strikes me, though, is how optimistic he remains, despite everything. We often now associate sci-fi/technology with pessimistic views of the future and what we will become (thinking of 'Blade Runner' - the film, not the book which I haven't read) but Asimov manages to show all the warts but all the gains and remain optimistic about the ability of the human race to evolve.
No, haven't read 'The Gods Themselves' but will keep an eye out for it in 2nd hand book sales.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 5
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Hi E Yore
I think that, for me, you've put your finger on the attraction of Asimov. He is an optimist, and it shows in his books. And also, although I do think he was quite poor at writing about women specifically, he was very good at writing about the human race in general. This was where his early writings led him, to the creation of 'psycho-history'.
Do have a read at 'The Gods Themselves' - it was written in 1972, almost 30 years after 'The Caves of Steel', and it's interesting to compare and contrast.
Did you miss, then, the R4 adaptation of 'The Caves of Steel'? It was about 25 or more years ago I think, and it was the first play to be broadcast in stereo. I still have the tape somewhere...Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 6
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Thanks for that information on Asimov, ali cat. I'd never read any of his books, so reading this was a first for me! I read it on the long train journey to Berlin, and it made for good travel reading. However, I have to admit that I am /not/ a sci-fi fan (books, or films) in general, and this book has not managed to convince me to read more of the genre. It comes across now as quite dated and quaint (to me), but I can see how it must have created a furore when it first came out, over 60 years ago. I did rather like the idea of the city-dwellers who no longer dared venture outside. It made for very visual reading (I could really imagine travelling down those walkways, for example). I imagine it has been made into a film at some time?
Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 7
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Hi Bette
Not sure about whether it's been made into a film, but if it hasn't well it should've been.
I know it's old fashioned, but I can still read it with my younger self, so to speak, at the fore. I was an infant when it was written, and when I remember how life was in the sixties even, then this book was written using such imagination and such vast concepts. In 1952, when it was written, I don't think we even had escalators in our local department store!
xxLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 8
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Upcoming discussions:
21st October: 'Elidor' by Alan Garner (Rwth of Cornovii)
A family of children between 10 and 14. The youngest, Roland, is the one who has to sort things out, in two worlds.
21st November: 'Precious Bane' by Mary Webb (Elnora Cornstalk)
Mary Webb鈥檚 mystically charged Shropshire landscapes and doom-ridden characters fell victim to Stella Gibbons鈥檚 satire in 鈥楥old Comfort Farm鈥. But grounded in narrator, Prue Sarn鈥檚 calm humour, clear dialect, and sharp insight, 鈥楶recious Bane鈥 (1924) survives the parody. Looking back on growing up in the country at the time of Waterloo, Prue, born 鈥榗urst鈥 with a hare-lip, tells the story of her own quiet ambitions, and recalls the more violent trajectory of her brother, the dominating, smouldering, Gideon. This is an everyday story of country folk, and of extremes 鈥 of dullness, witchcraft, superstition, tenderness, and taxes. The detail is superb: if you are visiting the Borders over the summer, pack it now!
15 December: 'Wind in the Willows' by Kenneth Grahame (Herb Robert)
'The Wind in the Willows' was first published in 1908 and has the timeless quality of a dream. The four main characters, Ratty, Mole, Toad and Badger, go through many adventures in a pastoral English landscape. The book deals quite seriously with moral and mystical matters, but underneath it all is the cement of friendship, which sometimes has to be cruel to be kind.
For links to past BofM discussions, see message 186 of the Book of the Month Rota (2010) thread:
F2693944?thread=7019221&latest=1
For information on discussions next year, please go to the Book of the Month Group 2011: Suggestions and Rota thread:
F2693944?thread=7620213Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 9
Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Just bookmarking for the moment, as I'm only half way through the book. I'll join the discussion later.
HerbLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 10
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Tuesday, 21st September 2010
Thank you for introducing this month's discussion, Ali, and for reintroducing me to Isaac Asimov. It is years - decades even - since I last read his books.
When I started reading "The Caves of Steel", I remembered that I fell in love with R. Daneel Olivaw when I was in my early teens: he was my first robot love, really. Roy Batty* as played by Rutger Hauer, in the film Blade Runner (based on Philip K. Dick's novel "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" was my other robot love.
Back later to discuss Asimov and "The Caves.....".
Rusty
*Do wish he wasn't named Roy Batty though.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 11
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
I agree that this book needs to be read in a sort of 'fifties' frame of mine. That said, I think it still has interesting things to say about society in general and xenophobia in particular.
I don't think Asimov is a particularly good* (I was going to say fluent) writer; however, his plots, his overview of the world he created, and his humanity shine through. His women were rubbish, absolutely, at least in his earlier works.
Asimov was one of several Sci-Fi writers to emerge at around the same time,but I gather he was virtually the only one who took a fairly liberal stance; I'm thinking of Robert A. Heinlein, for instance - while his political views were all over the place, I don't think one could ever describe them as humane or optimistic, as one can Asimov's. (Incidentally, I find Arthur C. Clarke unreadable despite his brilliant mind and his - so I am told - remarkable prescience on the science front.)
Mind you, I think Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics has been adopted by those working in the field:
1.A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2.A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3.A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Beautifully neat, innit?
I think the sci-fi genre lends itself to the short story, but I don't remember Asimov's. However, I have just started his "I, Robot", which I hadn't realised was a collection of short stories (probably thinking of the Will Smith film).
Really want to read his "The Gods Themselves" now. That's another thing about sci-fi - they have some of the most wonderful titles, hinting at all kinds of intriguing takes on the world(s).
Just thinking about Elijah Baley's world: the overcrowding, the communal washrooms where it was infra dig to acknowledge others' presence,the vouchers(?) for decent food, and so on. I'd love to have read more about the people living (don't know about thriving, exactly) in such a rigid, proscribed, society. Then again, Asimov wrote this book in the early 1950s, so aspects wouldn't have been as alien as it is to us now (and they would have been even more familiar if he'd lived in the UK).
Rusty
*Though I liked your description of his later books as being more "sprightly"in style, Ali.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 12
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Bette (message 6). I think sci-fi has so many sub-genres that most people can find one or more that they an appreciate. When I was writing my intro for the Dystopian Fiction book club thread, is struck me that there quite a few overlaps (not just sub-genres of sci-fi) between sci-fi, fantasy, horror, futuristic, etc.fiction.
For instance, I have just bought "The Time-Traveller's Wife" from a charity shop, and "The Handmaid's Tale" is one of my favourite books (though I couldn't say I *enjoy* it as such). I thought "The Children of Men" by P.D. James was pretty good too.
I did a quick surf and it doesn't appear that "The Caves......." has been made into a film. However, there was a 主播大秀 television production in 1964 starring Peter Cushing and John Carson (I'd forgotten about him - tather saturnine looking, wasn't he?).
I missed that, as I did the Radio 4 adaptation.
It's a shame that some excellent sci-fi novels and short stories have been made into mediocre (or worse) films. There have been some honorable exceptions: "Blade Runner", natch, "Children of Men", and even John Wyndham's "Midwich Cuckoos"/"Children of the Damned" adaptations. On the whole though........
RustyLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 13
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Hi
Rusters - I'm introducing 'Time Traveller's Wife' next year, and I'm currently trying to re-read it and finding it SO HARD. First time around, I loved it, but this time, not so much. Interesting!
I haven't read 'I, Robot' for years, and I must read it again. I find that, once started, the 'Robot' books grab hold of you, and I love the way these early books of Asimov's segue into the 'Foundation' series - even though these were written out of sequence (and it shows sometimes, too).
Going back to the subject of the thread, I am fascinated by the 'Spacer' worlds, where there is hardly any personal contact between people at all. I wonder where we are in relation to this, and our current obsession with the 'virtual' worlds on the internet?Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 14
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
That's interesting Ali. I wonder why 'The Time Traveller's Wife' isn't grabbing you this time round. I sometimes experience this second time around when I have been intrigued by the story to the extent that I ignore the irritants in the writing/holes in the plot, whatever. Could that be it?
I was put off reading the book partly because so many people enthused about it (does that make sense?) and because I saw a few clips from the film, which looked a bit gooey and sentimental; maybe the clips chosen were unfortunate, as far as I was concerned.
Like you, I am fascinated by 'Spacer' worlds, and I think Asimov depicts them very well. In fact, though his writing can be a bit stilted, I think he does have a tight hold on what "his" world is in his books. Maybe that is due to his background in science; certainly I have been frustrated by the lack of depth in the worlds of other sci-fi writers, e.g., Anne McCaffrey. She can write entertainingly, but doesn't always deliver imo. Then again, she was merely out to entertain, whereas Asimov had a message. I think?
I think (could be wrong) that Asimov was the first writer to depict sympathetic robot characters, and they are still a rarity (now someone is going to prove me wrong on both counts).
J.G. Ballard wrote a very disturbing dystopian short story set in the future, where no one ever met any one else in the flesh, though they married and had children (via test tubes, incubators, etc.). Those children in turn were born into an isolated world where they were cared for in their own pod apartment by remote control.
According to Ballard, when one man, a father, petitions to be allowed to have his partner and children actually visit him, it ends in a real (nearly wrote virtual) bloodbath.
Baroness (Professor) Susan Greenfield believes if we carry on the way we are going, are brains will be irreparably changed, and not for the better:
Greenfield has expressed concerns that modern technology, and in particular social networking sites, may have a negative impact on child development.
In this respect, she has been criticised by Ben Goldacre for claiming that technology has adverse effects on the human brain, without having undertaken any research or properly evaluating available evidence. Goldacre called on her to "[formally] write up her concerns about computers damaging childrens' brains", to which she replied that he is "like the people who denied that smoking caused cancer". Hmmm.
Asimov's "The Gods Themselves" and Andrew M. Stephenson's "Wall of Years" are on their way to me now, so look forward to reading them soon. I'll read the Asimov first, and post about it here. It is one of his later books, I think you said, so it will be interesting to compare and contrast his style with his earlier ones.
RustyLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 15
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Yayyy Rusters. Hope you thoroughly enjoy both books. I shall read 'The Gods Themselves' again now, it's on the bookshelf upstairs, just waiting for me.
I am always interested in these two contrasting lifestyles in 'The Caves of Steel', and I do feel drawn to the Spacers. I love the idea of the peace, tranquillity, the calm and quiet of not having lots of people around. And I do wonder if today's so called road-rage, and similar, is a result of us being too overcrowded. Maybe we should learn to not look at one another so much!Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 16
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Sorry Rusters - just didn't finish replying to your messsage...
Good point about Asimov being thoroughly grounded in his science, I think you are right there, he is absolutely sure of himself and of the subject matter. His women are always so unreal to me, and his dialogue is stilted, but the scenes he sets, and the worlds he describes, well they are absolutely believable.
Heinlein was a writer who knew people better than the science, I think. I like his books immensely, but not so much the man.
Yes, Anne McCaffrey is very entertaining, and a bit lightweight - except, except...did you ever read 'The Ship Who Sang'? I loved that book, it was moving and passionate, and had such depth of compassion. I've never forgotten it.
I haven't read J G Ballard, but I will make a point of doing so. Our local book shop/library has some of his books in and I'll select one next time we go in. I'll let you know which one.
Not so sure about our brains being irreparable damaged by technology, but maybe we will be changed by our own changes, as it were. Could it be so bad, really? I used to think that the drug of the future would be virtual life, and I still believe that. I can just see the human race plugging into machines and living virtual lives instead of the real physical ones we experience now. Much like the Spacers did, in Asimov's imaginings, only they weren't living virtual lives plugged into machines, just lives which were totally remote from physical contact. Good or bad? Hmm.
I just don't know why I'm not enjoying 'the Time Traveller's Wife'. I have picked it up and put it down a couple of times. I really will have to re-read it though. I think because I sort of know what happens, I am more impatient with it the second time around, but of course the first time I had no idea of what to expect from the book.
Back to Sci-Fi and Asimov. Did you ever read 'Nightfall'?
Right. Off to feed visitors now.
xxxLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 17
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Oh yes, as I was mentioning Anne McCaffrey I thought "The Ship Who Sang" was an exception - it still makes me cry. Was afraid I might get a sharp slap for going off-topic though!
I can't remember whether I've read Asimov's "Nightfall". My Asimov reading days were in the dim and distant past until just now. What did take me aback was to find very few of his books in the local Waterstones, and only one at the local library. Has he really fallen so far out of fashion?
<<"... but maybe we will be changed by our own changes, as it were. Could it be so bad, really?">> I don't know. I think we might lose out souls (so speaks an agnostic).
More on this when I get back.
RustyLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 18
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
<<"... but maybe we will be changed by our own changes, as it were. Could it be so bad, really?">> I don't know. I think we might lose out souls (so speaks an agnostic). 聽
Interesting, Rusters. I shall think on this and we'll continue when you return.
Safe journey. xxLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 19
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
In reply to ali-cat in message 18
I'm following the discussion, though can't participate as I know next to nothing about sci-fi fiction. I've already purchased a copy of The Time Traveler's Wife, but if you want to change the choice for next year, then let me know. I'll be listing the books proposed for 2011 soon (was braking a bit as there was such a wealth of suggestions!).Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 20
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
...lose *our* souls, not *out* souls. Sigh. Anyway, tempting though it is in lots of ways, I just feel a bit uneasy.
Yep, more later.
RustyLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 21
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Understood what you meant, Rusters. xx
Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 22
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
Hi Bette
No, I'll stick with it, but thanks for the offer. I do think the book merits discussion, and maybe my second reading will give me more of an insight.
I look forward to discussing it with you. xxLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 23
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
In reply to ali-cat in message 22
OK! I /do/ find that one gets more from a book on a re-reading (sometimes, a time difference gives another perspective too). Shame that we just have so little time to do this, though.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 24
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010
True, Bette. Maybe the second time we see the less obvious things, and make connections that we missed the first time around.
Off to bed now. half ten here. shattered with visitors. xxxxLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 25
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:25 GMT, in reply to ali-cat in message 24
Thinking about some of the comments above, I do feel that Asimov's strength lies in his short stories or novellas: there isn't enough writing to feel bored by his style nor irritated by his female characterisations but the reader can concentrate on the themes and visions. I remember reading Nightfall Two as a 14-year old, and being blown away by the stories. I'd love to re-read them now but as Rusters says, my parents' English library has almost no Asimovs.
I really need to drop out of the book club, for reasons of advancing poverty and lack of space. Both 'The Gods Themselves' and 'Nightfall One' (the collection containing the original short story) are already in my Amazon cart and now I want to add 'Nightfall Two'!Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 26
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Hi E Yore
But what do you think of the two differing societies - the city dwellers and the Spacers? Do you think this could've been explored better in a short story format? Or perhaps it needed the longer format to explore these opposing societies fully.
I know what you mean about the books and the space etc. Are you in the UK? If so at least you have the libraries....here I do so miss the library, I now have to beg borrow or buy my books. And my Amazon cart is full too. Ah well, pressies perhaps?
xxLink to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 27
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:14 GMT, in reply to ali-cat in message 26
I'm in France, ali, I thought you realised that!
In a short story, I think Asimov could have explored better/more completely, individual aspects of Spacer society compared to the City Dwellers. In the novel format, a fortiori a 'tec novel, by definition the plot had to take over, so there was less exploration of those aspects. Does this make sense?
Asimov short stories are, for me, like looking at details of a vast intricate canvas through magnifying glasses while the novels are like looking at the whole canvas without having the time to focus on one or other detail.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 28
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:30 GMT, in reply to E Yore in message 27
Sorry, omelette cooking cut short my time to post.
Individual details I think could have been explored better in a series of individual short stories:
1. what happens to old infrastructure as civilisations move on (thinking of the motorways)
2. claustrophobia & open spaces (there was a short story in 'Nightfall 2' that explored this, iirc, where a child refused to teleport, and became a truant, in order to explore the vast spaces of empty fields, soon followed by his psychiatrist.)
3. confined living & the ways of preserving that "inner" space. we have now the lack of eye contact in big lifts and the "pretending" we don't hear the conversations on mobile phones in buses and trains.
4. Daneel's "digestive" processes and how, even when we have the ability to move forward in technology, our human assumptions and needs put brakes on what we do.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 29
Posted by lord jim (U8270495) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
I've read the Caves of Steel but I barely remember any of it apart from that I liked it, as I did all of Asimov's novels. I read hundreds of Science Fiction books when a teenager and can recommend Larry Niven's Patchwork Girl and The long arm of Gil Hamilton as other examples of Detective Science Fiction.
I'd also recommend M John Harrison's Light and Nova Swing as examples of beautiful science fiction inspired prose that is almost poetic. The plots are a bit all over the place though.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 30
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Hi E Yore
I had forgotten you were in France. Sorry. Dire isn鈥檛 it, not having libraries? I do so miss them (moan moan moan).
I can see your poin, about the individual aspects of the societies being more clearly explored in short stories, but I suppose we must remember that he was exploring the novel format for himself, not writing for us specifically.
I remember the short story you mentioned 鈥 something like 鈥淲hat a Beautiful Day鈥? Also I think there was a story which illustrated how humankind dealt with overpopulation by using parallel universes, thus eliminating overcrowding. (I might have that wrong, I鈥檒l have to do a bit of digging I think). But I do think that Asimov explored a lot of these issues in short story format.
I know that our social interactions have changed since I was a child. I remember walking out with my mum, and men used to take off their hats and speak, now they don鈥檛 wear hats, and more to the point, they avoid eye contact completely and wouldn鈥檛 dream of speaking. Actually, it鈥檚 not so bad here in France is it, where we have much more space per person? We do find that people speak more readily to those they pass in the street, or those who are in shops.
Asimov short stories are, for me, like looking at details of a vast intricate canvas through magnifying glasses while the novels are like looking at the whole canvas without having the time to focus on one or other detail.聽
I love your use of imagery, and can鈥檛 really argue with what you鈥檝e said there. And a beautiful way of saying it too.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 31
Posted by E Yore (U1479700) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:00 GMT, in reply to ali-cat in message 30
'What a Beautiful Day' it was, indeed. Gosh, what a good memory you have!
One reason I am considering moving post-retirement (if the govt. ever allows to get there) to the bit of France near where my parents live, is that there is a good English language library there.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 32
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
And I'll be there right behind you, E Yore. I'd love to live near an English language library.
I'm going to try and do a bit of digging of Asimov's earlier stories I think. I have a few collections, but haven't read some of them for yonks. Trouble is my memory is full of them but sometimes I have trouble assigning story to author.
Hope your retirement is achieved as soon as you want it to be..I know we're enjoying ours.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 33
Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Well, I've finished it now. I should declare at the outset that, like Bette, I am not a fan of science fiction (and I know, Rusters, that there are all sorts of shades of meaning in that term, but as shorthand I think you know what I mean.) I tried to remedy this about 20 years ago, because I felt that so many people read the stuff that there must be something I was missing. So I had a few months' binging on science fiction, and while I quite enjoyed some of it, it didn't leave me with a desire to read much more.
So it was with some trepidation that I approached this month's book. And I have to say that, apart from the slightly archaic feel of a lot of it, as has been pointed out before, I actually rather enjoyed it. And I think a lot of that has to be because, as someone mentioned above, Asimov is simply a good (or "fluent") writer. I think it is also because it can be read almost entirely as a detective story (it seems to tick all the boxes for that particular genre)so once you get over the slight weirdness of the futuristic world (where women still apply make-up in the old-fashioned way)you can fall back on the conventions of detective fiction.
One thing I particularly liked was the whole of Jessie's name. When it was introduced and we had the whole story of Jezebel, I thought that it was a gratuitous interjection. It turns out to be one of the crucial elements in solving the crime, and I thought it was very neatly handled.
And one particularly lovely passage, for me, comes towards the end of chapter 15: "What /is/ beauty, or goodness, or art, or love, or God? We're forever teetering on the brink of the unknowable, and trying to understand what can't be understood. It's what makes us men."
Anyway, thanks ali-cat for introducing me to this book. I'm not sure I'm ready to go much further with this writer, but if the chance comes up I shan't reject it.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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Message 34
Posted by ali (U14257944) on Thursday, 23rd September 2010
Hi Herb Robert
What a lovely post. And I am so pleased you enjoyed this book, which I read purely as a detective novel when I first picked it up (about 40 years ago!). It was only later that I learned more about the man, and then read more SciFi books. And yes, the Jezebel thread was a surprise to me too, when I first read the book. I always think that he's not very good at 'writing women' but on second thoughts, he did seem to understand Jessie's feelings about her name. So maybe I'm wrong there.
I do think that Asimov's love of people shines out in this book. He had an understand of people, of their weaknesses and their strengths, and he seemed to believe in the ultimate goodness of humanity. His books, as Rusters said earlier (I think it was on this particular thread) always seem to have that upbeat feeling, an optimism that things will be all right in the end.
If you do ever want to try another, I did mention 'The Gods Themselves'. A much later book, but well worth reading, also cleverly done.Link to this forum: Monthly Book Club: September 2010. "The Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov
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