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Otherwise-ish: passive aggression
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Psychologists, therapists and people with better people skills than me - help! Is there an easy, not-too-offensive way of dealing with people who are passive aggressive?
Our nice neighbours have gone away for six months and let their house to a young woman and her 8-year-old daughter. They came round to introduce themselves when they moved in a couple of weeks ago and one of the first things the woman said was: 'I love to have a good time and I'm really noisy. I like to play music really loud. So if you've got a problem with that, come and tell me.'
Things have degenerated from there. She comes round all hand-wringy and apologetic, then asks us (and other neighbours too) to stop doing things the way we've been doing them for decades. So, she's awfully sorry etc, but she doesn't want anyone parking their cars anywhere near her house 'because it's a hazard for my daughter'. (If you had any idea how little traffic we had around here, you'd appreciate how ridiculous that is). She's been around this morning whingeing in her creepy, ever-so-sorry way, about the bin bag arrangements. The council collectors require everyone to put their bin bags out on the morning of collection at a point near her garden fence and we've been doing so for years. This is apparently now a health hazard for her daughter and might lead to rats on her property and so she'd like us all to promise not to do it any more.
As OH says, it takes half an hour for it to sink in that she's manipulating us yet again. She's actually being really tyrannical under the guise of being ever so nice and concerned. I'm not sure I can bring myself to be rude to her, but is there anything one can say to make it clear that one is aware of the game being played? -
Message 2
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
I never got to grips with the term passive-aggressive, but I can see that her behaviour is a problem. However, she may not realise that she is behaving in a way that you would see as playing a game.
When she says she's sorry, it may be a manifestation on her part about anxiety about offending. That doesn't mean that she doesn't think that she's right. From her perspective, even if you have put all your rubbish outside her house for ages, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to continue to do so. Saying that she doesn't want you to isn't necessarily being manipulative from her perspective, she may just not be good at asserting herself. Maybe on the rubbish point, you could check out who at the council is responsible for the decisions as to where the rubbish is put and direct her to them?
Why not take her at face-value and simply respond to what she says as you would to anyone else? For example, she's said about the music - either her music is a problem or it isn't. If it is, take her up on what she said and tell her. She won't know how far her music carries if you don't tell her, because sound carries very differently in different houses. -
Message 3
Posted by stolenkisses (U6230663) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Manipulative people either know already that's what thye're doing, or they believe their own publicity, so nothing you can say to them will alert them to how they appear to others. Your (happily temporary) neighbour sounds like she falls into the latter camp. So I think you just have to be assertive in your responses and your behaviour.
How does she think children in much less salubrious surroundings survive the hazards? Their parents take responsibility for them, that's how. If your neighbour doesn't want her daughter to be menaced by parked cars and bin bags, then she has to supervise her.
So I think you need some straightforward responses along the lines of "This is how we've always done it and it has never caused any problems in the past. Nice neighbours (the current landlords) have always been perfectly happy with the arrangements. We've never had rats and the bin bags are only out for a short time. The council expect us to leave them there." etc just repeated ad lib in the 'dripping tap' technique.
And carry on parking and putting out your bin bags as usual.
sk -
Message 4
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
You could avoid conflict by simply getting everyone to put their bin bags outside your door. I doubt whether the refuse collectors mind which house it's outside so long as it's all together. Problem solved.
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Message 5
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Sunny, we're pretty rural: a group of houses arranged around a kind of informal green, down a dead-end lane. The reason why for years the bin bags have been left in that particular spot is because it's the only place where the council lorry can easily stop, load and turn round - it makes logistical sense. And to be frank, why should we all have to change the way things are sorted down here because someone on a six-month tenancy comes up with some silly reasons for being territorial?
I thought the 'I'm noisy, me, so if you've got a problem with it...' announcement was pretty openly aggressive. This is a very quiet spot. That's not to say people don't have parties (we had a fabulous neighbourhood solstice party in the snow) but people come here because they love the peace. Implying that we're the ones with the problem because we appreciate the quiet is...well, it felt a bit like a declaration of war, to be honest.
I'll try to continue being calm, asking lots of nit-picking questions and just do what I do, but I'm spooked by her. I find manipulative people really difficult to deal with. -
Message 6
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
I think that how you see a person affects how they relate to you.
If you see someone as manipulative and respond that way, then they only way they will have of relating to you is to be manipulative even if they weren't in the first place.
If you're open and frank with her, it makes it safe for her to be open and frank with you and then you'll have better communication.
Let me give an example. Someone I know has BPD. She gets her prescriptions weekly from her consultant. Her consultant decided that to stop her playing one doctor off against another, she could only deal with the consultant, however she didn't always make arrangements for the person I know to get meds in a hurry if she was called out of the office.
So if the person I knew needed meds and her consultant wasn't there, she was in a bind. If she didn't sort out a scrip, she was seen as playing the system to cop out of taking her meds, and if she asked another doctor for them, she was seen as playing one doctor off against another by asking the second doctor to do what the first doctor had said they shouldn't.
So this person was stuck. Whatever she did would be seen as manipulative, but she was only in this position because she was being treated as manipulative in the first place.
So if you have a problem with your neighbour and the rubbish and you see her as manipulative, you feel resentful and hostile and that comes across to your neighbour who then sees you as playing games with her and treating her unfairly.
But if you simply treat her as if she were being assertive in a way that you could relate to, you could redirect her towards those that make the actual decisions about the rubbish and you wouldn't have to worry about being manipulated, because it would be a straightforward community politics transaction between her and the council, who could explain their policy to her and whose authority she'd probably accept. -
Message 7
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Morganish, the practical reason for where the rubbish bags are left seems sensible; up with it she will have to put. Has anyone explained that to her?
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Message 8
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Morganish - I would have said to her 'Sorry, but that's where we always put the rubbish, as agreed by the council. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with your landlord.'
Similarly, I would continue to park my car where I normally do, and suggest she contacts the police if she doesn't like it.
I don't think I'd be at all interested in being her friend, or currying favour with her. -
Message 9
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Hi Sunny: yes, I see what you're getting at, it's just that it feels a bit late - the damage has been done. When she came round to introduce herself we were open and friendly and good-neighbourly. But by the time she'd had her cup of tea and left both OH and I, separately, were feeling uncomfortable. After the front door was shut we turned to each other and raised an eyebrow - because despite the 'I'm ever-so-anxious to get on with you all' surface layer, which was laid on with a trowel to the point where it almost made us wince, we actually felt as if we'd been involved in something confrontational. I guess that's the passive-aggression issue. On one level she's passive and submissive and on another it's like being hit with a crowbar!
In dealing with her I try to be calmly assertive, ask lots of questions to try and find out what this is *really* all about and say 'But I don't understand what the problem is' with horrifying regularity. Over the parking thing I was fairly firm: I said that I didn't think that there was anything to worry about and that as there was no simple practical solution then we'd just have to continue as we always have. Her response was to cringe and apologise over-profusely and say how sorry she was to upset me. I wasn't upset: quietly annoyed, confused about what it was all about, but not upset. The more I said, calmly, that I wasn't upset, the more apologetic she was for upsetting me. She later told one of the other neighbours that she'd really upset me... Aaaagh. It's very difficult to be straightforward and assertive with someone who bends or misreads everything you say! -
Message 10
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Maybe I wouldn't answer the door next time she came round, Morganish.
But then again, I am a horrible person! -
Message 11
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
It's very difficult to be straightforward and assertive with someone who bends or misreads everything you say!Â
You have my sympathies. Maybe she'll either change or move on after six months. You never know your luck.
She's lucky she doesn't have me as a neighbour - I'd be anxiously asking her if it was ok for Santa to park his sleigh on the roof.
Here's hoping all will be well over Christmas. -
Message 12
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Jenny, Lilo - yes, good sense. On these particular issues, there doesn't seem much of an option. The bin bags are put by the fence at the end of her quite long garden: 20 yards from her front gate and out of sight of the house unless she's walking past.
If she was less apologetic and ever-so-sorry and was just more straightforward to deal with, I don't think any of this would be a problem. -
Message 13
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Morganish - can you somehow filter out the cringing apologies?
If it had been a straightforward request - please can you not park outside my house? - you presumably wouldn't have had any trouble in saying 'no, I can't guarantee that I will always comply' or even 'you have no right to ask that - you don't own the road!
I really think that avoidance is the best tactic. You don't /have/ to socialise with /all/ your neighbours. She certainly seems to be 'surplus to requirements'. -
Message 14
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Lili (sorry for calling you Lilo earlier!), you put your finger on something important, and that's all the apologising and 'I don't want to upset you or be a nuisance' stuff. She is, of course, being a nuisance but all that grovelling means that, if we don't go along with what she wants, we feel we're being awkward. We have both been avoiding her like the plague and will just have to lie very low for the next six months. Strangely, other neighbours think she's absolutely lovely. Perhaps we have over-sensitive trouble antennae.
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Message 15
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Are you sure that your other neighbours really like her? Or are they just saying 'the right thing'. I can assure you that I wouldn't like being bothered to that extent by a new (and temporary) neighbour.
If someone needs help or is in trouble, fair enough, but irritating little things like parking and rubbish - completely out of order. The only time I have ever asked someone to move their car from outside the front of my house was when they were actually blocking the driveway. -
Message 16
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
I am perhaps barking up the wrong tree but i just wondered [since she alone with her daughter] if there has been some traumatic event whch has landed them in the rented house in a strange place. Her behaviour in a new neighbourhood does sound bizarre but if she needs to be ultra protective of her daughter, her aggression is coming out to you because of that. Thinking about the car parking near her, for example.
Or perhaps she is simply a bit weird. -
Message 17
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 27th December 2010
Developments. Our new neighbour had visitors who turned up on Christmas Eve and there was a lot of noise and screaming from the green, where they had an impromptu bonfire which has left a dreadful mess. I am so knocked out after having the flu that I put earplugs in and went to bed, but apparently one of the other neighbours went round at 1am to ask them to be quiet and there was a barney. Our new neighbour and her friends were very drunk and they threatened the person who went to complain. The visitors have gone now, but this morning as the snow melted another neighbour found a syringe on the green and is jumping to conclusions. The people who own the house have been contacted. I suspect she may be asked to leave.
Trying to keep a low profile, but feeling a little better about my reaction towards her. There clearly are bigger issues than parking and rubbish behind all this. -
Message 18
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Tuesday, 28th December 2010
Oh dear, Morganish. Sorry it has turned out like this, and hope that the landlords deal with the problem quickly. Low Profile certainly seems the best way to go.
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Message 19
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Tuesday, 28th December 2010
There clearly are bigger issues than parking and rubbish behind all this.Â
That's exactly what the consensus in this house was yesterday - that her objections to the bins and cars were in themselves sort of symptoms of an underlying problem or issue that she had, herself. -
Message 20
Posted by What larks (U14260755) on Wednesday, 29th December 2010
If the landlords have granted a six month contract they won't be able to get rid of her without proving she's broken a term of the tenancy.
Causing nuisance will be a ground, but unless Morganish and the neighbours involve either the police re the threats or the local council re the noise, it may mean them all trotting off to court as witnesses. Not a happy thought. -
Message 21
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 29th December 2010
Thank you, that's useful information. People round here are tolerant of many things, but not Class A drugs. The neighbour who nearly got his nose broken on Christmas Eve seems to think the tenancy is just one of those 'friend of a friend of a friend'-type arrangements, probably with no formal contract. I am keeping out of it, but I do feel concerned about the child who was apparently up and around and witnessed the hoo-ha.
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Message 22
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
She has now decided, apparently unilaterally, that the lane is getting too cut up by people driving along it in the mud and has parked her car in such a way as to block everyone off. She has put up cardboard signs saying Road Closed on each side of it. Fortunately I don't need to get out this evening. I predict a small riot, which I will quite enjoy observing.
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Message 23
Posted by stolenkisses (U6230663) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
This is decidedly odd behaviour. Do you know what happened about her being asked to leave?
sk -
Message 24
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
No, I've deliberately tried to keep out of it. Now that you mention it, the neighbour who complained about the noise is most likely to be inconvenienced by this. He works at the hospital and doesn't get back till about 6.30. He'll have to leave his car further up the lane and walk back to his house when he comes home this evening. Some very peculiar things go on down here (this place seems to attract the kind of people who wouldn't easily fit into a conventional estate-type set-up) but this is a first.
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Message 25
Posted by Moonflower (U2267264) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
this does indeed sound like very odd behaviour. hope it all sorts itself out.
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Message 26
Posted by catwomyn (U1485618) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
I predict a small riot, which I will quite enjoy observing. Â
Any chance of posting live updates on here? I should quite enjoy observing via proxy, too.
Cat x
ps, hope that doesn't sound horrible - I have a v dull life at the moment and am in awe of your batty friends and strange goings-on -
Message 27
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
When I told my OH about her further adventures,he said "Is someone going to park so as to block her car from moving? That's what I'd do".
I'm afraid that I'd be less of a free spirit- I'd complain to the police or local council (probably both) about my vehicular access being obstructed, and try to get everyone else to,as well.
It's potentially life-threatening - what if an emergency vehicle was trying to get through? -
Message 28
Posted by Doodlysquat (U13738858) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
Ooohhh...we had a similar problem once. It was solved by half a dozen of the most muscular chaps going out mob handed, lifting the offending vehicle and depositing it in a *very* inconvenient place. The owner of said vehicle could do nothing as the neighbours denied any knowledge of the event.
suze -
Message 29
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
There's been some hooting and raised voices but so far the predicted riot hasn't happened. Sorry, Cat, but I'll sit in the upstairs window with the binoculars if and when it kicks off. I think she may be lying low and refusing to answer the door, or not home. I am playing the same game.
Carrick, OH is driving back later this evening and is planning to park up against her in such a way that she can't get out in the morning. I am astonished at how territorial and dictatorial so many of the ageing hippies /self-styled free spirits around here are. Some of them, under the tie-dyed, uber-cool exterior, are little Hitlers. -
Message 30
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
Don't blame them if some eejit is blocking their road without permssion, Morganish.
smileywinkythingee.
Is it a private road or a public highway?. -
Message 31
Posted by Doodlysquat (U13738858) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
Yoghurt weavers can be ferocious when roused.
suze -
Message 32
Posted by stolenkisses (U6230663) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
You must be revising the passive-aggressive diagnosis! This sounds outright confrontational, and not a little bizarre.
sk -
Message 33
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
That'll be strangely satisfying, Morganish - she may not have imagined that anyone else could possibly act to cause her real inconvenience not of her own paranoid devising.
Re the hippy hitlers - by contrast, our friend and local neighbourhood watch coordinator is a wonderful anarchist, with just enough trappings of retirement-respectability to confuse people. -
Message 34
Posted by Westsussexbird or Birdy aka Westie (U6316532) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
Morganish, if you park so she can't move her car I would think she might well cause damage to your car when she wants to drive off. If I was going for the lying low option and not wanting to be involved I'd not block her in.
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Message 35
Posted by Morse Lives (U1863548) on Thursday, 30th December 2010
I am very unhappy at the idea of a child being in this situation which is clearly unsuitable, and could amount to child protection issues.
I wonder if a call to the Police and Social Services to report the drunkeness and suspected substance abuse would be a thought. -
Message 36
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 31st December 2010
has parked her car in such a way as to block everyone off. She has put up cardboard signs saying Road Closed on each side of it.Â
Surely that's illegal, and a case for contacting the police? As well as dangerous, inconsiderate, and downright rude - if not even hostile. She sounds like a bit of a head-case, frankly, and a nightmare neighbour.
Gosh, to think that I found my previous neighbour's predilection for POlish folk music played loudly so I could hear it in my bedroom as I went to sleep a bit irritating -- it was quite benign by comparison!
As Cat says, you do present as having an "interesting" life, Morganish! And all with such good humour -- I"d be incredibly grumpy in your current situation! -
Message 37
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 31st December 2010
OH got back last night and was about to park his car next to hers when the bloke who works at the hospital appeared and advised him not to. Apparently he'd phoned her and she was, in his words 'off her head'. He thought she was capable of damaging OH's vehicle - so OH parked further up the lane and walked down.
This morning her car is gone. There wasn't a riot: sorry, Cat. People are furious and flummoxed. A couple of neighbours have called round to discuss what we should do. They have all said what a lovely woman she seemed when she moved in. As OH and I never felt she was lovely, we have said very little: we don't want to be seen to be stirring.
We're in an unusual situation here. Effectively we live on a private estate - though not a posh one. The land through which the lane runs, the common spaces, the greens and verges, the lane itself, all belong jointly to those of us who own property here. This means that the normal rules of living in a town or village don't seem to apply. Some people feel they have the right to do what they want, regardless of how it might affect neighbours. There are always disputes going on: people trying to grab a bit of extra land next to their house by fencing it off, people trying to put up sheds on common land, people who feel that they can make lots of noise etc. It is quite anarchic, and many people, including us to some extent, rather like it that way - otherwise we'd be living on a smart estate where everyone knows their boundaries. There's a committee that polices it all, but the shoutiest, most anti-social people do tend to rule the roost. About 70% of residents are peaceable and reasonable, but quite a high proportion are people who came to live here because they thought it would be free of the rules they regard as inhibiting. A lot of them are the wealthy hippy/ free spirit types: living marginally, smoking a lot of dope, believing in fairies and karma and whatnot. They tend to be the ones who do what they want and bogger the rest of us, and they can be tyrannical about their right to live how they want to live - even if the way they live makes life difficult for everyone else. OH and I are wondering whether it's possible to lead a considerate majority crackdown. The free spirits/anti-social brigade have had it their way for too long. Maybe this will be a catalyst we can build on. And don't I sound tyrannical myself now!
Someone up the lane works in the child protection department and has been consulted about the situation. I suspect there may also be a visit from the drugs squad before long. It's not quite as shambolic down here as it seems.
I've probably made this place sound like hell, but if you were to come in the spring, with the verges popping with wild flowers, blossom everywhere, the birds singing, children playing on the greens or cycling safely along the bumpy lane, and beautiful cliffs and beaches a shortish walk away, you might understand what the attraction is. -
Message 38
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 31st December 2010
You don't sound tyrannical at all, Morganish. Merely reasonable and considerate. But then I've come across the hippy types you mention, and give me a so-called "uptight" yuppie any day. At least they're honest about their motivations. The amount of passive-aggressive rubbish I've heard spouted by so-called "spiritual" people ...
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Message 39
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Friday, 31st December 2010
As a useful, but not invariably correct, helpful rule, I have found that anyone who, within a short time of meeting you,tells you that they are a spiritual person, usually isn't.
As an example, can you imagine this scenario?
"Hello,I'm the Dalai Lama and I'm very spiritual..." -
Message 40
Posted by Doodlysquat (U13738858) on Friday, 31st December 2010
This also applies to the " I'm a bit of a rebel, me" person. They are usually deeply conventional and desperate for approval.
suze -
Message 41
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Friday, 31st December 2010
It also applies to those who say they pride themselves on plain speaking - this almost invariably means only when *they* are the ones doing it.
BTW, I feel very sorry for that woman's young daughter.
Rusty -
Message 42
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Friday, 31st December 2010
Morgs - just hoping that tonight will be peaceful down at 'Bag End'* and that things don't start kicking off again.
*Mods - not a real address! -
Message 43
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 31st December 2010
Lili, I love Bag End - it sort of suits us. We are off out tonight to see New Year in with people from a dozen different countries around the world. Whether we can get back down the lane afterwards remains to be seen. Will take wellies in the car in case we have to walk.
I hadn't really met many hippy-ish types till I came down here. They can be spectacularly nasty. One family up the lane were devastated by a stillbirth. I met one of the flaky, spiritual neighbours clad in floaty layers of chiffon and flowers in her hair a few days later and said how sad I was to hear the news. 'It's karma,' she said. 'They have to pay for something they did in a previous life.' No compassion: something bad happens to you, it's your fault. Those hippies are *hard*, man! -
Message 44
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Saturday, 1st January 2011
I'm not usually one to advocate violence, Morganish, but I would have been sorely tempted to give her some Instant Karma myself.
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Message 45
Posted by DeathToSSGs (U11202885) on Saturday, 1st January 2011
DOn't forget the ones who tell you about their wacky sense of humour - always deeply unfunny and irremediably single.
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Message 46
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Sunday, 2nd January 2011
All so true!
OH and I went for a walk yesterday morning and bumped into half the population of Bag End Lane out walking off their hangovers. Everyone knew what was going on and wanted a gossip. Our new neighbour has been working the entire 'village' hard. About half the people we met were very sorry for the terrible time she was having with awkward neighbours endangering her child (!) and implied that we were part of the problem. The other half were outraged at her behaviour. OH and I maintained expressions of mild astonishment and said very little. There is a game going on here and we're so rubbish at that sort of thing it's safer just to feign ignorance and not get involved. It has reminded us how poisonous the gossip and side-taking around here can be. A depressing way to start a new year. -
Message 47
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Sunday, 2nd January 2011
So she's a catalyst for some people, as well as an issue in her own right?
You have my sympathies - one thing is that she'll use anyone who lets themselves be used, so your "feign ignorance and not get involved" approach may well be useful, particularly in the early stages, while the opposing sides form battle-ranks. -
Message 48
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Sunday, 2nd January 2011
Carrick, you have summed it up very tidily. It does feel as if a minor issue about car-parking and bin bags is being escalated into a civil war very rapidly. I know I tend to be over-sensitive about this kind of thing: I really hate the idea of anything I have said in a particular moment, in a particular context, being embroidered and used against me. It scares me. I have already had someone say to me; 'But she says you said...' I raised an eyebrow and just said, 'Really?' in as surprised and light-hearted way as I could muster. Should I have explained that I said something roughly along those lines, but in the context of her arriving on the doorstep and telling me I had to move my car because it was endangering her child, when it plainly wasn't? It feels safer to say nothing. Gosh, it's like being back in primary school and it's scary.
-
Message 49
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Sunday, 2nd January 2011
Perhaps try to act only where she directly affects you, for a moment, as you have done?
Safer, maybe - watch and wait? -
Message 50
Posted by Westsussexbird or Birdy aka Westie (U6316532) on Sunday, 2nd January 2011
Morganish, it sounds a nasty situation and not one any of us would want to have on our doorstep.
I agree ... keep your opinion to yourself and just look surprised.
Don't do anything to give her amunition or escalate the situation. I'm glad you didn't park blocking her in.
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