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The etiquette of dying
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 25th July 2011
A friend of mine, Jane, was recently diagnosed with terminal cancer and is now at home. She has no idea how long she might have, but seemed to be doing well. But when I spoke to her on Friday she was so weary and weak she could barely talk. Apparently she is getting 10 visitors and more a day and is finding it exhausting. I would love to see her, but I am very aware of the emotional and physical toll involved, so instead of just turning up I have sent what I hope is a funny, cheerful, tender letter. I wondered about sending flowers, but I know from supporting others through terminal illness that sometimes flowers can get overwhelming and depressing. I made it clear that I was happy to help in any way I could.
I didn't think my friend had any family, but a cousin has come out of the woodwork and has, along with a couple of close friends, moved in and started gate-keeping. The cousin texted me to let me know she had received and read my letter and would show it to Jane when/if she felt she was in a position to appreciate it.
I am feeling a bit out of it while also mindful that this isn't about me, it's about Jane. Is there anything else people here would do? Flowers - yes or no? I don't know whether to keep calling every few days and risk adding to the burden, or whether just to stand back. I get the feeling that some people think a 'real' friend would push through the security cordon and insist on getting involved, but I have also seen rather a lot of what might be termed 'emotional tourism' going on and I don't want to be a part of that. -
Message 2
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Monday, 25th July 2011
The cousin texted me to let me know she had received and read my letter and would show it to Jane when/if she felt she was in a position to appreciate it.Â
The whole thing is difficult, Morganish, and it all epends so much on the subleties of the situation which you'd be a genius if you could quantify, let alone put into writing so that a third party could appreciate it, but all I can say is follow your gut feeling - you'r a sensitive, respectful person and what your concerned abot is basicaslly how much love to give to your friend.
The "if" option of the quote above would make me sad and a bit angry, and I'd wonder if the cousin was getting off on the power of the situation.
It's not her job to protect your friend from all emotional situations, is it?
Perhaps she's trying to sort something that can't be sorted without emotion. -
Message 3
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Monday, 25th July 2011
I'd be a bit sad that the cousin felt that she should open and read Jane's post.
I'd send flowers if you think that your friend would like them - maybe something unusual like orchids or freesias or sunflowers. -
Message 4
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 25th July 2011
Thanks for the responses. I know there's no right answer. When Jane was first diagnosed she told her colleagues, who have known her for years, and a few key players who kept it to themselves. It took a long time for the news to reach many of her other contacts and friends and by the time I got to hear about it a protective cordon had formed. I know I am not the only person to feel slightly excluded, but I guess it's just the nature of the beast.
So difficult to separate out one's own needs.... -
Message 5
Posted by Zaf (U14933397) on Monday, 25th July 2011
I felt the same in a similar situation when a friend was in his last weeks of life in the hospice, his sister rationed visits and virtually chucked me out after half an hour.
I guess its a natural reaction for family to feel protective in such situations but I do understand how you feel. -
Message 6
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Monday, 25th July 2011
Very difficult. I think you just have to go with your gut feelings - good luck with it!
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Message 7
Posted by Caro (U14909021) on Monday, 25th July 2011
Hello, I hope that I'm not intruding here (not been around much since I registered so haven't had time to get to know any of you) but just wanted to say that I've a friend in a similar situation, except that her 'guardian' is the long-term live-in fella and quite a rotter, who married her when the dx was terminal (she also has no family and owns her house.........)
A month or so ago I breeched the cordon and took her a present. I don't know to this day why I bought what I did, neither of us are cuddly toy-type people, but somehow this was spot-on. I bought a smallish, but not too small, soft cuddly dog, gave him a name, and put him by her on the bed.
It's become her constant companion and only yesterday when I visited her in the Hospice where she is now for a spell to get her pain relief meds sorted, he was there, keeping her company. Oh and btw, I'd already named him. Presenting him to her already with a name took the effort of her thinking of one away from her.
I'm afraid that I need to disagree with sending/giving flowers for two reasons: 1) flowers die and that's not good psychology I reckon and 2) the scent may make her feel nauseous. Just my thoughts and only mine and these were my thoughts when I decided against them for B. So pleased I chose the dog tho!
All the v.v.v.best to your friend - and to you. Go with your heart.
Jay -
Message 8
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 25th July 2011
Thank you, Jay. I know that my friend Sheila who died some years ago got sick of all the flowers and raged about people sending her stuff that would wilt and die. She felt it was a kind of cheap short-cut to actually dealing with what was going on - sort of 'here, we don't know what to say or do so have some flowers' thing. And my aunt, who died a couple of years ago, couldn't have cared less about all the flowers she was sent. When you're on your way out and in discomfort I think their beauty can be almost insulting. Perhaps an orchid that will go on growing would be a better bet if I were to send something. Alas, Jane is very unsentimental and has a real cat keeping her company, so I don't think a fluffy toy is an option. Horses and courses and all that.
Pleased to know I'm not the only person to have been through something similar. Strange old situation. Don't want to participate in the competition to see who can be most devastated, which is what seems to be going on. -
Message 9
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Monday, 25th July 2011
Well you spoke to your friend on Friday and it is only Monday so that is scarcely exclusion. You know from that phone call that she is being overwhelmed by well-intentioned visitors, so quite rightly you sent a note rather than dropping by unannounced.
The cousin has texted you so you are still in touch with the household. Why not text the cousin back and say that you would like to get updates and maybe visit if only very briefly. Maybe at short notice if Jane feels strong enough. Is there anything else you can do to support the household? Do they need any shopping? A home made pie or a cake? The loan of a few mugs to supply tea to the overwhelming visitors?
You're right, it's not about you. Supporting the people who are supporting Jane might be the best thing you can do for your friend. -
Message 10
Posted by Caro (U14909021) on Monday, 25th July 2011
I did the negotiate thing for updates and that's worked reasonably well - hence me knowing that B is now in the Hospice - something to consider?
I'm really heartened to read that your friend has her cat for company - they're infuriating, they're a b. nuisance and always try to trip you up on stairs, but, end of the day........they're the BEST!!!
Jay -
Message 11
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Monday, 25th July 2011
I think people do start to withdraw a bit anyway in the latter stages of terminal illness - they're beginning to move on so to speak.
If your friend is someone who enjoys reading, I might send a book - especially if there was something new out by a favourite author, and it was the sort of book that could be enjoyed, when read a few pages at a time. Or a CD... -
Message 12
Posted by Apple-Cart (U9035861) on Monday, 25th July 2011
When my friend was in hospital and in danger her closer friends arranged a kind of cascade system for keeping everyone informed. This saved her relatives from constantly dealing with enquiries from people they had never met.
I have to say I thought it very odd that your letter was opened. I can't imagine doing that unless the person to whom the letter was addressed asked me to. -
Message 13
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 25th July 2011
Responding to Nomad, 9:
Nomad, I rather simplified the situation for brevity's sake. When she first left hospital and was living without support I visited Jane a couple of times (she lives about 30 miles away, so it's not just nipping round the corner) and we emailed most days - easier for her to write an email than answer the phone when she had so many visitors. I know how wearing that can be, so I was probably much more cautious about just turning up than others seem to have been.
She was going well and so we concentrated on practicalities, like finding a new home for her cat when the time comes. About 3 weeks ago she began to get seriously weary and her sight was affected, so the emails became difficult for her. The cousin and close friends moved in and since then, until Friday, I had been unable to make contact with her. They are brusquely frosty on the phone: there is a subtext of 'she is *our* friend, who the hell are you?' and they offer very little information. Fair dos: they don't know me and I don't know them, and having been in their situation in the past I can imagine the stress they are living under. But they do seem quite prickly. As for volunteering assistance, I do so every time I call, whether I get them or Jane. Jane had wanted me to come and weed the garden and we were trying to set up a suitable day when the cousin and friends took over. Since then, every offer has been refused instantly. I can understand that the bother of having me, a stranger to them, turn up in my gardening gear may outweigh the benefits of having the garden tidy. They don't know that I'm sensitive enough to arrive, do the garden and depart without requiring food, drink and a shoulder to cry on.
As you say, it's about her and not about me. And, as you say, the cousin has at least texted me, so with a bit of luck I am in the loop and can make contact via that medium.
I think the idea of some kind of telephone tree is an excellent one, but possibly too late to implement now - and rather dependent on the people at the top having some idea of who knows who and how everyone is linked. Worth thinking about for the future for all of us. With the possibility of an email group and group texting, there's no real reason why everyone can't be kept discreetly informed every few days, which would save the stress caused to everyone by phoning. -
Message 14
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Monday, 25th July 2011
If your friend is someone who enjoys reading, I might send a bookÂ
It can be difficult to concentrate on a whole book. My father enjoyed reading poetry - shorter ones, rather than the Ancient Mariner or Hiawatha or something.
If she's losing her sight, maybe a book on CD. -
Message 15
Posted by Abberley (U14872426) on Tuesday, 26th July 2011
If she's losing her sight, maybe a book on CD.Â
Definitely books on tape/cd - holding even a smallish book up can be very exhausting.
Maybe you have a garden and could provide some nice fresh veg/salad? Or a nice home-made pie or something, for everyone who's helping her. You may not get to see your friend, but you can drop the stuff off with her doorkeeper and hopefully the message will get through. If they're fielding so many visitors a day, it's tough on them too.
And keep on with the nice notes. Just knowing someone wants to be in touch, but very much NOT requiring an answer/conversation can be the best way to go, I think. I had a problem with a woman who wanted to be in touch with me a lot after my dad died and I just wanted to hide away. Constant texting, letters demanding why no reply to the last one... I had to cut myself off from her in the end. -
Message 16
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Message 17
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Wednesday, 27th July 2011
Morganish, sorry if I sounded brusque. I can only respond to the post and obviously didn't know the back story.
Given what you've now posted I have another suggestion for you .
Why not write to Jane's carers. Say exactly what you have said here. That up until about three weeks ago you were visiting Jane every now and then and e-mailing on a daily basis. Tell them that you made arrangements with Jane for the care of her cat and were making arrangements with Jane to come over and weed the garden. Tell them that you don't want to disturb Jane, or them, but would like to fulfil your promise to weed the garden. You could even go as far as to say you are turning up on such and such a day, with your own thermos and sarnies, and not to be alarmed if a stranger turns up and starts weeding. Follow the note up with a text.
Please remember this is only a suggestion and not advice. It may ring true for you or it may sound like complete nonsense. Take what is useful and ignore the rest... -
Message 18
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 27th July 2011
Don't worry, Nomad. I seem to be having trouble expressing myself in a clear way at the moment. I was trying to short-cut the long story.
I think it may all be theoretical at the moment because I heard today, via the grapevine, that she was admitted to hospital on Monday night. May go round and weed the garden anyway: one last little gesture. -
Message 19
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 27th July 2011
Oh, forgot to say the cat is sorted, in case anyone was concerned.
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Message 20
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
All the best, Morganish - yes, weeding the garden sounds as if it might be a good time to think of your friend.
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Message 21
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
Morganish
I have had more experience than I would really like of family dying of cancer and the etiquette of dying is that it is really focused on the individual and not on those around.
What usually happens in the case of people who have "notice" of their death is
1) first of all they need space to get their own thoughts and emotions in order around the inevitable. Often well meaning family and friends bombarding them with offers of help can be a distraction, irritating and downright unwelcome. In my view the best thing someone can do is to say - I am sorry to hear your news, if you want to talk, laugh, joke or anything practical please just text, call or mail me and I'll be there right away. If you do meet to talk then keep the conversation on normal stuff unless the person indicates that they want to talk about their death or starts it. It is often a relief to be treated normally and remember who you are rather than this walking corpse you have become.
2) As the death approaches - and for some people it can be a long time before - the person gradually withdraws from the world. It is almost like they are taking their leave of everything so there is no unfinished business for them or that their mind is on other things. They are not being unfriendly or unappreciative, sometimes they don't have the physical/emotional strength to cope with anything and sometimes they just don't want to.
I don't know if this is what is happening with your friend but I'd like to guess that it is and that her "gatekeepers" are trying to let her do what she wants. Your letter may have been opened and read by the cousin because Jane's eyesight is failing and she has asked the cousin to do this. The cousin is probably dealing with her own emotions and keeping them firmly in check around Jane which may be why you have got a rather clipped response.
If you want to feel you are helping then I think the idea of just texting to say you'll be coming round to do the garden and bringing your own supplies etc on a particular day and then just turning up and doing that. If might be nice if you know which room Jane is in to have some flowers that you can plant where she can see them from the window - perhaps something long lasting that will keep coming for a couple of months.
I would then leave it for the family or Jane to come and speak to you if they can. If they don't I wouldn't take it amiss, just consider that you have kept your promise to your friend and that's what you have done for her and you.
I know it's hard but dying is the only thing we ever truly have to do alone.. and sometimes letting go of life takes every bit of our energy and focus. Try to love her and let her go.
G -
Message 22
Posted by Apple-Cart (U9035861) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
Amazing post, GEm
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Message 23
Posted by dens canis (U1983532) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
I agree. This whole thread shows (yet again) that are some tremendously thoughtful and insightful people in ML.
I was going to post a link to the Dying Matters website which is designed to help with this sort of thing but the comments here go beyond what it can do. -
Message 24
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
I think it's also okay to be cross when people die.
If you love them, they really shouldn't leave you. Should they?
And if they are people who have let you down in some way, that withdrawing that happens is just one more of many rejections.
I guess the point is not to inflict that crossness/anger/rage on the wrong people. Because - as is said above - the dying and those immediately round them - really do have quite a lot on their plate.... -
Message 25
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
GeM, thanks - but I supported a friend through the last year of her life and nursed my mother till her death, so this is known territory for me. Which is why I have restrained myself from visiting or trying to make contact too often, and why I haven't sent flowers or, god forbid, a get well card.
I guess the crux of the matter is that Jane had been anticipating another few months of relatively active life and we have been disconnected in what felt like mid conversation, before I think either of us realised it was time to say goodbye. It is an extra sprinkling of sadness over an already very sad situation. -
Message 26
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
I guess the crux of the matter is that Jane had been anticipating another few months of relatively active life and we have been disconnected in what felt like mid conversation, before I think either of us realised it was time to say goodbye.Â
Yes, I do understand this Morganish. One of my dearest friends died last August after several years battling with cancer. She and I were each other's supports on all the bad occasions when health problems smacked us both sideways. Her decline was very rapid - one day she, along with 22 of us were walking in Dovedale, and a week later she was in hospital being diagnosed with a brain tumour. Her husband then 'took over' and wouldn't let us see her very much at all - like most of her closest friends, I was only allowed to see her twice in the four months between her diagnosis and death. Her OH felt that she would not want people to see her as she was then - unable to remember things or speak properly. We all felt that she was our much loved friend for many years and we didn't care what she looked or sounded like, we just wanted to hold her hand and be with her at the end of her life - that is what good friends do for each other. However we could not go against him - he is and always has been very directive. Nice man but can be quite autocratic. It saddens all of us that this was the way he made it because we all knew that J loved us all too and would have wanted her friends of over 40 years' standing to be there with her for however little a time.
GEm is right that often people coming close to death withdraw into themselves and with illnesses like J's would have probably slept through most things anyway. When she was compos, I sent her small luxury handcreams and lavendar bags for her pillow, a small bowl with her favourite por-pourri - she loved smells.
In the end it is down to the family but oddly, her OH said to a group of us at dinner a few weeks ago that he feels now that he probably was wrong to keep her friends away, that he thought at the time it should only be friends and family, but he has come to think since that as she was so close to all of us, we should have counted as family anyway.
You can only go with the flow in the end but I would definitely not send flowers. J had rooms filled with them and I think they were just too much for her family who had gathered at their home.
I hope your friend's life comes to a peaceful end and that she is, most importantly without pain and at peace with herself. I am sure she knows what a good friend you have been.
Love
Savvie -
Message 27
Posted by Twin-Lions (U3870602) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
When my brother was dying a friend sent an old photo (a copy, he said there was no need to send it back) of one of good times in the past that they had shared. My brother was warmed by the reminder that he'd lived in the memory of someone now far away and would continue to do so.
Of course, you've been rather closer, and your friend's eyesight is failing. But to me it seemed a personal and quiet present which pleased my brother without burdening him.
"Disconnected in mid conversation" - that's a really good description. Jane probably feels like that with the world as a whole.
Look after yourself as well, all these deaths can resonate together rather. -
Message 28
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 28th July 2011
Thank you, Savvie and Twin-Lions.
Savvie, I'm sorry to hear your story. I know it must be a fairly common situation, but it is no less painful for that, is it? I'm glad you feel the same way about flowers.
T-L, I found a couple of rather silly pictures of Jane having a good time at events we'd attended and I enclosed them with my letter after much thought. I know Jane would have laughed - don't know what her carers will have made of them. -
Message 29
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Friday, 29th July 2011
I spent a lot of time with a friend I'd got close to at work when we were pregnant at the same time, when she was dying of what became terminal lung cancer.
We spent a lot of time laughing - towards the end, it was difficult because her breathing was so affected by her laughing.
That's my last memory of her - coughing, but her eyes were laughing. -
Message 30
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 29th July 2011
Yes, Carrick, Jane and I were keeping it jokey - a tone she had set early on. I just have to hope that the intention of my gently funny letter (which was also, I hope, a tender expression of farewell) was understood by those who intercepted it. Otherwise they probably regard me as being completely inappropriate.
Aaaagh, the complications! This was why I enquired about the etiquette of dying. -
Message 31
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Friday, 29th July 2011
I don't think there really is an etiquette Morganish. We will each do it our own way and each of us will deal with the deaths of others our own way. My mum left strict instructions there were to be no tears at her funeral, it was to be a celebration of her life and that if anyone wore black she would haunt them. I went off to purchase a bright red jacket and dress from john lewis (it was almost Christmas so the store was full of bright silk party clothes). As I was paying for it the lady behind the till said how beautiful she thought the outfit was and asked if it was for a special party. Without thinking I said something like you could say that it's for my mum's funeral tomorrow. Then I looked up and the poor woman's face told me that she thought I was as hard as nails. What I had actually done was switched off my emotions completely as I was utterly exhausted from looking after her. It was Easter when I finally cried as they played Thine be the Glory on the service on Radio 4 which was the song her coffin had left the church to. My husbands friend was on the phone to me at the time and was so concerned he dropped the phone and came haring round to check what was the matter. My husband arrived home to find me weeping on Gary's shoulder and understood immediately. He said he had been waiting for the tears and was getting worried that they didn't come.
There's always a feeling of unfinished business. Since my mum died I've longed to pick up the phone and tell her about something that I know would thrill and please her (and sometimes just pour out my own troubles to her). Squigs stands in occaisionally as surrogate mum for me but she wisely tells me she knows it's not quite the same.
Morganish - my heart goes out to you. It is so hard to lose someone and feel that you have that interrupted conversation. I think your gardening idea is a lovely one - very thoughtful and unobtrusive - and is a great way to let your friend know you love her. Don't worry about what anyone else thought of your letter - our relationships are very personal and we must therefore understand the relationship to understand the words. You know and if your friend had the letter read to her she'll know. That's all that's needed. Be kind to yourself and allow yourself to grieve.
G -
Message 32
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 29th July 2011
Thanks, GEm. I too have been to funerals where black and tears were forbidden (the latter more difficult to observe than the former) and they have tended to be the best funerals, where joy and celebration and laughter mingle with the sadness.
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Message 33
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Friday, 29th July 2011
I think the insistence on bright colours and celebration is as bad as an insistence on formal wear, compulsory gloom etc.
I went to a deeply unsatisfactory 'celebration' of the all too short life of a friend who died after a series of malignant brain tumours. Yes, it was what her husband/widower wanted. It may have even been what my friend would have wanted. And yes, it was interesting to hear friends speak during the ceremony and to find out more about her earlier life.
But not one single reference was made to the cruelty of her illness, the fact that she couldn't enjoy the retirement she and her much-loved husband had planned.
I would have really liked someone to have got up and intoned, 'The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.' To me that would have felt truthful and real. -
Message 34
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 29th July 2011
The Lord (fraid I don't believe in him) if he exists has been particularly cruel on this occasion. Jane's partner left her four years ago when she had breast cancer and she is only 18 months away from what should have been a comfortable and interesting retirement. Grrrrrr.
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Message 35
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Friday, 29th July 2011
I disagree with you fundamentally here FOM. In my view the wishes of the deceased should be respected absolutely - after all this is their "final curtain" and it should be as they wish.
in my mothers case it was HER expressed wish and she had written it out, chosen her readings and music and even designed the order of service with her own wording. The vicar in the church made reference to her illness but he talked about a life well lived. After all what would you rather be remembered for - the life you've lived and things you've done or what you died of? in my case I'd rather be remembered for my legacy rather than for whatever it was that halted my life. Oh - and anybody mentions God at my funeral I will absolutely and utterly haunt them for the rest of eternity.
Fraid we'll have to agree to differ here old girl.
G -
Message 36
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 29th July 2011
But not one single reference was made to the cruelty of her illness, the fact that she couldn't enjoy the retirement she and her much-loved husband had planned.Â
But funerals are for the living. The dead know nothing about them. People are struck down all the time by cruel and senseless illnesses and accidents - that is the way life is and we have to deal with it. For many people, the only way they can face their enormous loss is to /celebrate/ as fully as they can the life of the much loved person they have lost.
I have taken many funerals in the course of the now several years I have been a humanist celebrant and I have never yet met anyone who wanted me to focus on the manner of a person's death other than as a passing comment on (as I did this morning for a man who had suffered Parkinsons for 17 years) "F suffered a degenerative disease for a long period of time but in the best traditions of the men of his generation, he demanded little and put up with much, all with the same grace and smile that were typical of him throughout his life."
Death comes to us all. For those of us who do not have a religious faith, we accept the finality that death brings but find solace and calm from remembering and celebrating the good in the person who has died and in the legacy which they leave behind. What point is there in making an issue of the manner of a person's passing? Who benefits from that? Certainly not their family and close friends.
Savvie -
Message 37
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Friday, 29th July 2011
'Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted.'
It is a deep human need to grieve for loss, and I think one of the purposes of funerals is that collective mourning/grieving. And this need is greater when someone dies suddenly and/or at some relatively young age. (Perhaps some of us are to scared to do that? Too much in denial? Or we lack the underlying faith that we can give way to grief yet still be upheld by some kind of greater power)
I think that celebration can be experienced more fully at the wake/party afterwards.
Of course when attending a funeral, I'll fit in with whatever the organisers/family want. It's just there's always the (selfish) hope that it will help me to be there. As well as helping the immediately bereaved by allowing them to think, 'Oh yes, there was a good turnout. Friend of Moose came..' -
Message 38
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Friday, 29th July 2011
I think I sort of get what you mean, FoM. I have no belief in a deity, but there are some deaths where I have wanted to have a bit of a vent & a rail against fate. Is that maybe what you mean? I can think of one sudden death of a good friend only a year & a half ago where it seemed so pointless, and every celebration of her life had us all saying "Why thebluddyhell did she have to die?" along with remembering her alive and in rude health.
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Message 39
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 29th July 2011
'Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted.'
It is a deep human need to grieve for loss, and I think one of the purposes of funerals is that collective mourning/grieving. And this need is greater when someone dies suddenly and/or at some relatively young age. (Perhaps some of us are to scared to do that? Too much in denial? Or we lack the underlying faith that we can give way to grief yet still be upheld by some kind of greater power)Â
For people who have a religious faith maybe it means more in the sense that you describe it, though I had always understood people of most Christian faiths to believe that their god had much to do with /why /a person died and what was supposed to happen to them after death - thus giving them a comfort which might not be shared by others perhaps?
For me, I have no belief in any deity so your concerns about 'faith' would not apply to such as me, though of course I mourn the loss of all those close to me. But the funeral is an opportunity to say goodbye and to remember what was good about their lives, how much they impacted on other people in a positive and beneficial way and what they have left behind them which will never be forgotten by those of us who remain. It is not a place for me to rail against the manner of their death, because I can do nothing to alter the /fact/ of their death, only try to bring some measure of comfort to those dear to them who are left.
The mourning comes IMHO /after/ the funeral and that is when people need support the most - in the lonely days and nights which follow.
Savvie -
Message 40
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Friday, 29th July 2011
'Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted.'
It is a deep human need to grieve for loss, and I think one of the purposes of funerals is that collective mourning/grieving. And this need is greater when someone dies suddenly and/or at some relatively young age. (Perhaps some of us are to scared to do that? Too much in denial? Or we lack the underlying faith that we can give way to grief yet still be upheld by some kind of greater power) Â
FOM, you seem to be saying that the only way to collectively grieve and mourn is with religious rites at a grim and sad funeral. I was trying not to rise to some of the comments and sentiments in this thread but your apparent lack of understanding and empathy has moved me to post.
I can't put things as eloquently as Savvie or GeM. All I can say is that many friends came together with our extended (and slightly unorthodox in that in spite of divorces and re-marriages we are all good frineds) family for my step-son's funeral nearly five years ago now. For any who don't know he died in a car accident one August afternoon half a mile from our house. At the time he and his girlfriend (and Rockydog) were living in our house and they both worked for the family firm. Talk about an interrupted conversation!
We grieved and mourned from the moment OH went up to the closed road because Dan hadn't come back to work on time and he recognised the car. His friends and the rest of the family did as well.
In the 10 days between the accident and the funeral it was open house here. I've never made so many cups of tea and sandwiches even though we barely ate. We all cried together, laughed together, fell silent together. Ourselves, Dan's mother and his closest friends planned his funeral, with the support of an excellent funeral director and our humanist celebrant.
His funeral service (if service is the right word) consisted of poems, speeches by his parents, friends and myself, as well as music that he enjoyed. During the funeral we spoke about the Dan we all knew and enjoyed, we didn't need to speak about how he died. There was a quiet time in the service for everyone to remember Dan in their own way so that was the time for anyone with religious beliefs to make their own prayers. I don't think any of the immediate family cried during the service.
We collectively grieved and mourned with a smile and held it together with lots of hugs and mutual support. We have collectively and individually ranted and railed about why he died but you keep those moments to the minimum because the "if only"s could drive you mad.. We have had to live with a big Dan shaped hole in the world ever since. If you want to see grieving and mourning you should have seen his father wake up and sit on the side of the bed every Monday morning crying and not wanting to go to work because there was no relief of missing him at home or at work. Monday's were particularly bad as the start of another working week missing him. Yes Savvie, the real grieving and mourning takes place after the funeral, and is very raw for a surprisingly long time never fully goes away.
I have an underlying faith in humanity as a higher power and need no God rituals to support that.
Of course when attending a funeral, I'll fit in with whatever the organisers/family want. It's just there's always the (selfish) hope that it will help me to be there. As well as helping the immediately bereaved by allowing them to think, 'Oh yes, there was a good turnout. Friend of Moose came..' Â
I'm so glad you allow the immediately bereaved to be comforted by the thought that there was a good turn out, especially if FOM came.
I may have overreacted to your post but I also thought it was worth responding to the post emotionally rather than just allowing it to go unchallenged. So whilst those on the periphery of a death (at any age or for any reason) may need support can I just say it is not about you. -
Message 41
Posted by Apple-Cart (U9035861) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
I suppose there is no 'right' way of doing things, and you can't prepare for the emotional impact of having someone close to us near death.
This thread talked about the family 'gatekeepers'. Well, when my stepfather was dying my aunt stepped into this role and moved in. I am not close to this aunt, though my mother is, and initially I was pleased she was there. A day or two into the vigil I happened to call when my mum was out and she told me not to 'keep phoning' even though I was limiting the call to once a day (his death was imminent) and promised rather dismissively to call me if anything happened. My mum called me herself, of course. And then I ignored my instructions because it felt wrong. For a fraction of a moment my aunts attitude made me hesitate to go and visit my mother (200 mile round trip), but I reckoned that my obligation was to my mum, my stepfather and myself. My mum was really pleased to see me but it was nonetheless an uncomfortable visit.. For example, when my my mum asked after my teenage sons she cut in with, "oh they'll be fine. Children are very resilient and anyway X is just an old man to them". Well, X was the only grandfather they ever knew, and he was extraordinarily kind to them.
However, my mother was pleased to to have her sister there, so what do I know? It was strange episode.
When my stepfather did die shortly after, I was not told until my brother called me at 4pm and was horrified to discover that I didn't know. He had died at 8 am. We are a small family - my stepfather had no children and my mum had the two of us, so no excuse, imo.
I can see my aunt was trying to do the right thing by focusing entirely on my mother, but not acknowledging that anyone else might be affected by her husbands death seemed disrespectful to him. -
Message 42
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
People are strange at times like that. When my adoptive father died several people said 'oh it isn't like losing a real father is it' , as if somehow we loved him less. He was the only father I had known, and a good one, and my children loved him very much.
-
Message 43
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
Personally, I'm hoping that I will be informed of any kind of funeral. I texted Jane's carers to suggest that I and another of her friends (Jane's old neighbour of nearly 20 years) spend a few hours today doing the garden. I made it clear that we didn't expect to be invited in and would work discreetly. I had a text saying, 'Thanks, please don't come' last night. No further information.
Val (the former neighbour) and I have discussed whether there is anything to be gained from writing a note to the carers to say who we are and what Jane means to us, but we agreed that it might look as if we were demanding attention. So we wait. -
Message 44
Posted by Nomadnomore - XNo - Quiz Queen (U3180380) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
Well I'm sorry you've been rejected like that. I can't think of anything else to suggest for you so waiting is probably the right course. I hope you and Val get some support from each other.
-
Message 45
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
That's very sad Morganish and I am so sorry that they have taken the stance that they have with you both after having been friends with Jane for so long. It rather sounds as if they are fairly 'new to the scene' as well?
My hope is that Jane is now at a stage where she is asleep for much of the time and largely unaware when she is awake. That is what we all hoped for our J last year - in our worries that she may otherwise have thought we had all abandoned her, this was our only comfort - that she no longer knows.
I am sorry too that I have included in your thread my personal thoughts about death which I don't think are really appropriate here.
I wish for a peaceful and painless end for Jane and send my love and sympathy to you.
Savvie
x -
Message 46
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
How distressing for you two - FWIW I think you couldn't have worded your thoughtful and respectful request better, but your friends carers couldn't have realised what your relationship with your friend had been - maybe they are too bound up in their own reaction to think of anyone outside the people they're close to, maybe their focus can only be on the immediate at the moment?
-
Message 47
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
It sounds like a sad and difficult time for you Morganish.
It's perhaps inevitable that the discussion broadened out in an interesting way, which also showed how diverse - even polarised - people's views can be around this topic.
In case it's of interest to anyone I'm including a link to an article which I found insightful, when I read is some months after a signficant bereavement.
-
Message 48
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
Morganish,
How sad for you to have your offer turned down. It seems like a strange thing to do. I can only think that they are so tied up in their own emotions that they didn't understand that you were offerng to do this as part of your own way of saying goodbye to Jane (I realise that you know she might not even realise that you'd done this), as opposed to simply thinking that it was a job that needed doing.
I hope that you and Val can find a way of expressing your feelings for Jane on one way or another in the days to come. -
Message 49
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
FAB, you've expressed exactly what I was trying to say.
-
Message 50
Posted by Ginslinger Redux (U14830013) on Saturday, 30th July 2011
I am so sorry - although my mum had cancer she died very suddenly so I can understand a little about the broken off conversation. I am sorry you feel rebuffed but her carers may not be able to cope with any intrusion no matter how well intentioned. Some people may have people that they are fond of who don't know each other and the significance .
I think it does show that much extra grief would be saved if people bit the bullet and thought about what they would want and let people know. I regard it as her last loving act that my mother left instructions (not detailed but enough to get us started) for her funeral. My father organised an EPA and so on...
But this doesn't help the current situation. If she is in hospital.. I'd send a postcard and then there is a good chance that a nice nurse will read it her as it arrives rather than something in an envelope that will be left for relative to open. I sent some of my homemade fudge for my honorary god mother when she was dying of cancer.. it was the only thing she felt like eating and wouldn't let her greedy step daughter scoff it. I don't want to show disrespect to her family since as I said before people's relationships can be quite complex but I did think of the Rupert Brooke poem :
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