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Self Build ?
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Joanna Townmouse (U14278698) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
Dear all
Anyone done this ? We might have a very small opportunity to build a very small house (please don't think Grand Designs fabulous buildings here ) .
If anyone has any experience I would love to hear it . We have paid an architect to give us best estimates of building costs etc etc and OH has spoken to council - waiting to hear the result but would love to hear if anyone has first hand knowledge .
Thank you JT -
Message 2
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
Yes. I built a detached house with Ex Mr Lilo a few years ago. We had architects draw up plans but didn't have the advantage of computerised 3d plans. They would have helped hugely, and we wouldn't have done a few things we actually did.
Despite years of building and renovating, it's still quite hard to visualise room sizes from plans, and we got a couple of bedrooms too small, the kitchen area was huge and divided into dining and cooking. We got the cooking area too big at the expense of the office space which was squashed in the side.
We lived in a mobile home on site for 3.5 years. Not much fun, but we'd done it before and knew to expect the worst. It's a cheap way of building your own home, but it takes its toll on a marriage/partnership in many ways. I'd say go ahead but always budget for a lot more than you originally think. Lay plans for things to go wrong, builders going bust etc. Always look on the practical side, but retain your dream, because some days it's all that keeps you going.
Sweetfeet is an architect, she may see this thread. I hope I haven't put you off and I wish you luck with the planning, but it's a dream for a lot of people, and the dream can be a nightmare. Just telling you like it was for me. -
Message 3
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
Yes - also did it. Would echo the comment about getting room sizes wrong.
Depends how much you intend to do yourself and how much you sub out. Do not under estimate the time you need to be checking up/supervising the contractors - it also helps to have quite a bit of technical knowledge. We found even the well recommended ones were not averse to skimping on the insulation and not putting cavity trays in properly if it would save some time (not meaning that all builders are there to rip you off, but if corners can be cut...)
It doesn;t take long to get the shell up but all the internal stuff takes for ever, as does decorating an entire house youself
Do not yield to the temptation of rerranging things internally once you ar part way in (not us, but have seen in grand Designs) - there by comes a lot of diffiulties with services, etc etc
Planners can have the strangest ideas about what suits your area
I wouldn't recommend it with small children. Mine were older (9 and 13) but still resented the amount of time parents had to go off to work on the house (especially as we did a lot of plumbers, joinery, florring etc ourselves)
Would I do it again - probably, but on something a bit simpler -
Message 4
Posted by Joanna Townmouse (U14278698) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Thank you Lilo and Mabel. I am in two minds - I love the idea of creating somehing "perfect" for the family , but also worried about botching it up & getting out of my depth . Also it sounds to me that your projects gave you a bit more space than the teeny tiny bit I might have available.
Thank you though - it is great to hear another view
Tthanks MB & L
JT -
Message 5
Posted by Joanna Townmouse (U14278698) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
BTW when I say "perfect" I mean what suits us - what we can afford in my neck of the woods would never be classified as perfect in an objective sense .........
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Message 6
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Mabel makes excellent points about doing it with young children and having some kind of project manager. It's not easy if you're both working, in fact I'd say it's almost impossible. Ex Mr L was a builder and fitted the work in around other contracts, which is why it took so long. My children had all grown up, but had lived amongst the mess and awfulness of renovations just about all their lives.
I have horror stories to offer, but I won't rain on your parade Joanna!
It sounds as if you don't have experience of building or renovating. Am I right? Does Mr Townmouse? If so, put plenty of dosh to one side for emergencies. Builders tend to sniff out a newbie from very great distances.
The size of the house isn't always relevant to the things you have to bear in mind, eg what Mabel said about altering things once the shell is up. It's the same work only more of it. If you see what I mean.
I really don't want to put you off, but where were you thinking of living while it was being done? Have you got full planning permission?
I'll happily chat about it, but quite truthfully, I'd never do it again. The toll it took on my own marriage was enormous, so I'd say be sure you have a very strong marriage/partnership before you start!
I keep looking for Sweetfeet over in TB to direct her to these threads. -
Message 7
Posted by StillBorisBecka (U14076840) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Bump......because this thread could be of great interest to me in a few months time...............i believe ermintrude has some knowledge of this topic ...but she's not often in the VH..
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Message 8
Posted by Joanna Townmouse (U14278698) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Thank you Lilo ,
We have a good amount of experience at renovating , including building extensions. So seeing a house with nothing and everthing from electrics , plaster m floors etc outwards we have done , but never demolished and rebuilt.
I have looked at the plans today & my feeling is starting to be that what the planning people will allow & the compromised nature of the site , isn't worth it .
JT -
Message 9
Posted by groovysbc (U14750366) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
How exciting.
Visit new developments/ showhomes to gauge the various sizes of homes. You can decide also what you need/ want to have included in the design.
Do your homework, be prepared and most definitely expect 'anything to happen'. Get quotes in writing, check out contact details, stake out the addresses of trades etc if necessary.
Get your own trade accounts, we have understaken DIY pfojects and been offered them without enquiring, were just browsing. So shouldnt be difficult if you are Director of your own Company.
Be immediately available/ contactable by all trades/ architect/ planners. Friendly to aforementioned and your future neighbours.
Have tea/ coffee on tap
Decide from the beginning who is to empty the portaloo, if you are living onsite. -
Message 10
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Joanna, obviously without knowing the site it's difficult to comment.
However as far as the planners are concerned you can usually beat them with a clever a solution that is well justified in you design and access statement by exploiting the appropriate design guidance that is incorporated in their planning policy.
Good luck anyway. -
Message 11
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
We built a small (5 x 3m) timber cabin-type studio (sleeping loft, tiny shower-room, living-kitchen space) and then my partner lived in it on site while we built our current home - detached timber-build super-insulated house with three main bedrooms. The big house took nearly 4 years to build on a very tight budget and still isn't completely finished off inside (we really must tile the kitchen!) There were massive highs and lows and I would do things very differently if we were to do it again, including getting in the experts to do the most difficult jobs.
A small project, like the cabin, is much more easily achieved and I can imagine that it could be done by a couple of people in a couple of months. 'The huge problem we had on the big build was keeping motivation going.
Do lots of research before you start. We didn't do enough and were caught out on issues like radon barriers and the best place to source timber.
Unless you have specific questions I'm not sure what else to say. It's not even clear whether you are actaully planning to do the work yourself or whether you'll just be project managing.
In many ways the planning is the easiest and most pleasurable part. It's when you're up a ladder with your tool-belt on and you suddenly realise that you don't know whether what you're doing is going to be structurally sufficient, or you just don't know how to tackle a particular job, that you need input.
If I was self-building again I would:
Super-insulate (we used recycled newspapers in a product called WarmCell) to try and make the building as future-proof as possible.
Install wet underfloor heating: you're laying a slab, so you might as well do it and then it's there. No radiators gives you more usable space and more choice about where to put furniture etc.
I might try straw-bale construction: warm, quick, cheap and requiring no carpentry/brick-laying skills.
I would spend serious money on really good windows that come pre-painted. Scandinavian manufacturers are good and their products stand up to our wet environment. We had friends self-building at around the time we did and their windows are still as new. We re-used/recycled old windows and are having lots of problems.
Oh, final comment is that it will cost around 50% more than you are advised to budget for. There is a sensible theoretical price supplied by architects and quantity surveyors, and then there is the real price... -
Message 12
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Just saw this response from you Joanna, and I would counsel against trying to build something too big in too small a plot. We have a couple about 300metres up the lane who have built a very, very large house on a small plot. Quite how they got it past planning I don't know: it took them two years of wrangling and the local concensus is that large amounts of money must have changed hands in brown envelopes. The people who built it were more concerned with interior space than the effect on neighbours who have lost all privacy, with the result that those around them are seriously unhappy and behave accordingly. And they have a tiny area of north-facing garden which is totally out of keeping with the vastness of the house. Keeping things in proportion is important. Trying to squeeze a quart-sized house onto a pint-sized plot is a recipe for unhappiness all round.
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Message 13
Posted by Joanna Townmouse (U14278698) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Thanks Morganish
two of your points really resonate with me.
1) The plot is tiny & so anything which would not completely dominate , even if you built a large basement for extra space I think will be too small for us. Also I agree that inside / outside needs to be balanced. If nothing else for when and if you sell on - other peope are bothered ususally even if you aren't. Im certainly not a developer , on the other I don't want to end up with something very hard to sell if I do want to move on.
2) The numbers for plot + build only just stack up at the estimate , with 50% on it I dont think it would at all.
I guess if this were a no brainer the person who owns the plot would have done it . It's exciting looking at it but I think we will end up leaving it. Also we would not (could not - haven't got the skills !) to do it ourselves so we would be paying for others to do the work.
Thank you everyone though - I don't know anyone personally wh has done this so v intersting to you get your views . -
Message 14
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
You sound really grounded about it.
I would also strongly suggest to anyone planning a new build to be prepared to invest heavily in new heating/hot water technology at the outset. I must declare an interest — I am involved in this field and I've lost count of the number of times clients come to us for a quote, then decide they'd rather spend the money on a £20,000 dream kitchen or (believe it or not) a swimming pool. We quoted for underfloor heating and a heat pump for a local new-build and they professed themselves horrified at the cost. They've spent two or three times the amount on beautiful limestone flooring throughout the ground floor and the swankiest kitchen I've ever seen. But when winter comes and their oil bill is through the roof and they're having to wear their slippers on cold floors, they will regret it. And potential purchasers ten years down the line will expect underfloor heating in a house with stone floors. The cost of retro-fitting will be massive. So invest in good basics and live with an Ikea kitchen for a few years. It will pay huge dividends in the long run and make your house much more saleable in the future. -
Message 15
Posted by rhubarbjelly (U14545051) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Hi Joanna
My ex and I built the house I'm in a decade ago (ha ha-another ex!)
I must point out it wasn't the build that took its toll, and I'd love to build a small eco-house if I ever got the chance again.
It was a huge advantage that my partner was a builder, so this became his full-time job while I worked at something else.
It was full-on and exhausting, but I loved every minute of it.
We'd hoped to put many more green features in, but were limited by money. We went for underfloor heating though and sheep's wool insulation- the former is heaven.
I found it really difficult to imagine how the space would pan out when looking at the founds. We made a couple of mistakes e.g. by putting a cottage-dimensions staircase in....errrggghhh-no room to take large items upstairs. -
Message 16
Posted by Mabel Bagshawe (U2222589) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
However as far as the planners are concerned you can usually beat them with a clever a solution that is well justified in you design and access statement by exploiting the appropriate design guidance that is incorporated in their planning policy.Â
Hi SF - ironic laugh at the reference to local planning department's design policy here. No such thing was in existence (except to say no flat rooved back extensions to terraces). They turned us down on design but a well worded appeal picking their arguments apart against Planning Policy Wales saw us through, helped by having something previously passed to compare and contrast against (at least ours had a visible front door!) and a planning officer prone to making claims that our plan was taller than next door, and further back than the old permission, when it was lower and on the same footprint.
But pick your arguments carefully - friends were turned down on an appeal everyone thought they would win, so have a plot (in long family ownership so thankfully no investment lost) that nothing can be done on -
Message 17
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 6th October 2011
We have a planning officer around here famed for his insistence that front doors should be at the front of the house and preferably bang in the middle. Really restricting if you've got a long, thin plot. There are several houses that have been built with false front doors opening into living rooms and kept permanently locked, while the real entrance is at the side, opening into a hallway.
I am generally a supporter of the planning system but its inconsistencies are infuriating and the wiliest, most brazen people do seem to run rings around it. We have an issue with another new build in the area. They were denied permission to build to the size they wanted, so they built the house, then got PP for a vast two-storey 'garage/storage shed' at the back. They have now joined the house and shed up with a conservatory, converted the 'shed' to a huge living room and en-suite bedrooms and have the house they originally wanted. The Planning people hum and haw about it, but don't seem able/willing to do anything. -
Message 18
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Thursday, 6th October 2011
Well of course the planners can do something about it if they've built something that contravenes their PP or if it's an unauthorised development, in which planning enforcement can serve a notice on them.
However some LAs are reluctant to go down this road due to time, money etc. and consequently people get away with all sorts of things.
It's a game that every body plays and the longer you're around the system the more snags and loop holes you find in it.
The barn you describe Morganish, is a ploy I believe, described in the Old Testament. -
Message 19
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 6th October 2011
Hi Sweeters, yes, the planners have been round and told them off and there have been murmurings about the barn having to be turned back into a shed, but it's been running for about 18 months now and nothing's happening - and having got to know the people who live there, I think the council will have to bring in a JCB if they want any changes. Under the peace-and-love exterior of the local hippies lurk some of the craftiest, most determined characters you'll ever meet.
I feel sorry for the neighbours. I think you have a rough idea of the kind of place where I live. The neighbours live happily for years with a simple low-build chalet next door and a sense of space. Then new people arrive and the next thing you know, there's a massive two-storey eco-house (even though there's supposed to be a 6m ridge height limit) built right to the boundaries, putting neighbours in the shade and leaving them feeling overlooked. Lovely to live in, but not in keeping with the ramshackle character of the area. -
Message 20
Posted by strawberrysunrise (U10452397) on Thursday, 6th October 2011
I often get asked to advice on self builds, usually when problems have started, a few of the things worth considering, not meant to scare
I would tread very carefully,I have seen a lot of relationships suffer or break under the strain of taking on too much, it can be very stressful learning curve.
remember to factor in the cost of tool cost (buying or hire), site insurances,and loss of earning while you work,
If you and I go to a builders merchants or any suppliers, for every £100 you pay , I pay between £10 and £40, I get massive discounts, you don't. I bought windows for a friend's project the supplier quoted him just under £54,000, I bought them for well under £20,000 for him, skips cost me a quarter what they cost everyone else.
we have built quite a few people's "self builds" in the past,
as our price is far below what they can get materials for, and that's including the labour , plus we are significantly faster, and don't make costly mistakes, and the finishing are high standard.
time staging of trades will add huge costs if not managed carefully, where as our trades trust our timing and preparation, so price differently, where as they are at our beckoning call, you are a one off, so will not be on high priority, as you build you need the trades to pop in and out as the build progress, delays/gun jumpers are very costly,
we do our own electrics and our electrician signs them off, because he trained us, saves time and money,
the building inspector that signs off the work will scrutinise your work, where he trust us, as we can't afford to lose that, you however are not proven, this all adds time,
I often ask people thinking about this sort of project would they spend £50,000 plus on a year long course to learn to build or project manage? As that usually what the cost of doing your own project will start at.
be very careful,
if i think of anything else I will pop back.
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