主播大秀

The Village Hall聽 permalink

November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

• Message 1.聽

  Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Friday, 28th October 2011

  This is slightly unusual for the Book Club, but I propose to open this thread before I've actually finished the book (the original poster having apparently failed to turn up). Thus any of you who have been bursting with things to say can leap in right away. I hope you'll all bear with me.
  
  The main reason for this is that I hadn't realised until the book arrived in the post quite how long it is 鈥� 543 pages in my second-hand paperback edition. Which means that any comparison with Graham Greene (cited on the back cover of my edition) is otiose 鈥� GG is rather more succinct. And so far as I can tell GG is much more penetrating of human motives and character than Le Carre. Not that this is a fault in LC of course, but that the emphasis is rather different.
  
  I also realised that I'd listened to the 主播大秀 adaptation of this book on the Classic Serial slot on Radio 4 back in 2010. There are all sorts of personal details evoked by reading this now, since I was convalescing at the time and I was very impressed by the atmosphere of skulduggery that pervaded the production.
  
  Anyway, for what it's worth, here are my initial impressions after 100 or so pages. I found the slightly artful way of referring to the various insiders (and there are many) in this book a little disconcerting. The overt referencing to the jargon of the 鈥淐ircus鈥� is also slightly irritating 鈥� it takes me back to whenever the 主播大秀 original Smiley TV series was on, as all the names are vaguely familiar. We are kind of being invited into, yet excluded from, this inner circle. There is a sense that we are being privileged into being given access to this mysterious world, yet also distanced at the same time. But some things do work particularly well: the 鈥渂ackbearings鈥� chapter (3) for instance.
  
  I also like some of the descriptions of the ex-pat far-eastern community, 鈥渨here even experience had to be imported,鈥� and they were involved in 鈥渢heir tireless pursuits of legends about one another.鈥�
  
  There is also, so far, a thread of what you might call indifference: 鈥淒on't give me anything I can't carry,鈥� says the Orphan to Westerby, and people are constantly warning Smiley not to confuse Moscow with Karla: 鈥淚 think it's better to stay with institutions.鈥�
  
  As for George Smiley himself, 鈥渢here was a bit of the failed priest in old George,鈥� which means that he has a certain dogmatic patriotism about him Though, of course, 鈥渁 desk is a dangerous place from which to view the world.鈥�
  
  So far, then, interested but not entirely convinced that we'll get much more than standard spy fare. Nothing wrong with that, but then nothing to challenge Graham Greene either.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Friday, 28th October 2011

  Thanks so much for opening this thread, Herb (and as usual, with very pertinent comments). You are a real ... 'sport' < ahem >
  
  For those people who want to know more about the 'Book of the Month Club', here is the general thread, which lists past discussions:
  
  
  I'll be back later with my own comments.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Friday, 28th October 2011

  Oh, just to make clear that this is the /October/ thread (easy mistake in thread title, being so close to end of the month). The November book will be 鈥楽olar鈥� by Ian McEwan (Pahnda).

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Friday, 28th October 2011

  I don't remember ever having read a spy novel in my life - so this was a new experience, for me!
  
  Well, I really admired the style of writing. let me say that straight away.
  
  I found this book 'quaint'. The language was so 'old boy' that I found it funny. Was I supposed to take it seriously, or is it that times have moved on from when this book was written?
  
  I was put off by the depiction of female characters. Was Le Carr茅 a misogynist? They were very few, and those that were there were depicted in a very negative light.
  
  I found the plethora of characters off-putting, tbh.
  
  I found myself thinking that this was 'a man's book' - so will be interested to hear from women who actually enjoy reading it. Actually, I am glad I read it (albeit, rather fast) as it was a book and a genre that I would not otherwise have read had it not been for this group.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Small boy in third row (U2247664) on Friday, 28th October 2011

  I loved this book, which I read a while ago. I'm a bit busy this evening but will be back later to explain why.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Friday, 28th October 2011

  I am a Le Carr茅 fan. These ones (all the Smiley series) are of course now dated in the sense they refer to a pre-1989 world - this book was first published in 1977.
  
  It's too late now to start explaining why I like them - and I don't think of them as "spy novels" but as Le Carr茅s, just as there are series of detective novels that I think of as "Dorothy Sayers" rather than "detective". it's to do with the quality of writing and characterisation.
  
  BTW I have alwso enjoryed and appreciated the recent Le Carr茅 novels.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by TheRealSportyGirl (U1723427) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  I have read most of le Carre's books and to my mind the quality - of both writing and plot - varies a lot.
  
  The Honourable Schoolboy is - I think - one of the better stories. It has some great characters and I thought the 3 part series recently aired on R4Extra was brilliant.
  
  I don't think he's a misogynist - but I do think his understanding of women developed quite late in his life. In his (early, non-spy) novel "The Naive and Sentimental Lover" he seems to subscribe to the Madonna/Whore approach to women (and concludes that men are better off with men) - but by the time he reaches "The Constant Gardener" you start to feel that he is describing real women.
  
  I must confess that I first read most of these - including THSB - when I was very young & didn't understand about 3/4 of the plot. However something kept me interested - and interested enough to come back and re-read later when I could figure out what was actually happening!

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message7

• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  I thought the 3 part series recently aired on R4Extra was brilliant.聽
  
  Yes, I enjoyed listening to that. It also helped me to remember who was who (I was rather confused by the plot and the characters - but I expect it helps if one has already read a Smiley book).

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message8

• Message 9

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  "I found the slightly artful way of referring to the various insiders (and there are many) in this book a little disconcerting. The overt referencing to the jargon of the 鈥淐ircus鈥� is also slightly irritating 鈥� it takes me back to whenever the 主播大秀 original Smiley TV series was on, as all the names are vaguely familiar. We are kind of being invited into, yet excluded from, this inner circle. There is a sense that we are being privileged into being given access to this mysterious world, yet also distanced at the same time."
  
  
  Yes, that's it exactly for me too, Herb, and it got a bit wearing, frankly.
  
  I quite like Le Carre but must admit 'The Honourable Schoolboy' isn't one of my favourites. I much preferred 'The Perfect Spy' which seemed much less "dry". I gather it was semi-biographical in parts, and seemed to have more "heart".
  
  I don't know about misogynist, but I don't think he knows - or knew - much about women. 'The Little Drummer Girl' , with the female protagonist - the drummer girl - was awful, imo. In his formative years (no mother; prep school, public school) he probably had little to do with girls or women.
  
  Many years later he wrote 'The Constant Gardener[', and the women were much more realistically depicted.
  
  By the way, can anyone who has seen the 1979/81 television adaptations NOT visualise Alec Guiness as George Smiley?
  
  Rusty
  
  .

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message9

• Message 10

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Small boy in third row (U2247664) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  I've read all of Le Carr茅's spy novels (although like Peggy, I see them as Le Carr茅s foremost rather than spy novels), and this is my favourite.
  
  I first tried reading this book about 20 years ago, found it impossible and gave up. Then, some time last year, I read Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and enjoyed it very much. I remembered that my copy of The Honourable Schoolboy was still on a bookcase somewhere and decided to give it another go, and loved it. I felt quite bereft when I finished it. I suppose that having read Tinker Tailor first helped, this time round, and also no doubt I've changed a bit in 20 years.
  
  Le Carr茅's typical themes are strongly present here, such as the idea of decent men, fighting for (what they believe) to be a good cause, but having to use dubious methods and work with unpleasant people. In this novel what comes over particularly strongly is how innocent outsiders (rather than spies who have made a choice to take risks) can end up paying the most awful consequences. What makes Smiley different from his nemesis Karla (and from some of those on his own side) is that this troubles him - he faces the dilemma of being a good man in a very murky world. The book also shows different types of loyalties, such as Smiley's intellectual reasoning and Jerry Westerby's instinctive patriotism.
  
  One of the reasons for loving this book was the Jerry Westerby character. He came over as very true to life to me (in fact the way he talks reminded me of someone I knew years ago). I think he's a fabulously drawn and romantic tragic character (won't go into too much detail to avoid spoiling things for those who haven't finished reading it).
  
  The scope of the novel is also stunning, with the different settings in Asia brought wonderfully to life. I don't remember finding the language old-fashioned at all (I enjoy Le Carr茅's writing style). As Peggy says, it was written in the 70s and is evocative of that period. It never occured to me to find the story misogynist. Pretty well all the characters are deeply flawed, not just the female ones. It's true there are relatively few women in the story (although Lizzy Worthington is key to the whole plot) but I imagine that to reflect the world of the secret service in the 70s. And Connie is a star of the Smiley books, an intellectual match for Smiley.
  
  Finally, I do find all the spying stuff intriguing and love following all the complicated twists and turns in the plot. It's also satisfying that in the Smiley novels so much is achieved by cleverness and examining documents rather than the James Bond style of espionage.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message10

• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  When Eric Ambler died a few years back, several writers said that he had been a big influence on their work, because of the gritty realism he brought to the genre. Although Ambler was very popular in his day, he fell out of fashion some time after WWII. Not even sure his stuff is still in print now.
  
  Apparently he didn't find writing about the Cold War very interesting, in contrast to the intrigue of the 1930s and 1940s, though he did carry on writing into the 1970s.
  
  Sorry to introduce another author into the discussion, Herb, but you started it with Graham Greene!
  
  Rusty

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message11

• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by HenGog (U14769745) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  I used to adore LeCarre. I need to refresh my memory of this particular one - but what they did capture for me- more vividly than any other writer- is the sense of betrayal and loss which I saw in my father,and a number of his friends in the generation which came to adulthood before the war.
  
  Not that my father shared the internal tensions of conflicting loyalties which preoccupies Le Carre.but the bewilderment of seeing values which he had assumed unquestionable,and for which he had been willing to fight and die,being not only questioned but rejected and even derided,embittered his later years.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message12

• Message 13

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  I found this book 'quaint'. The language was so 'old boy' that I found it funny. Was I supposed to take it seriously, or is it that times have moved on from when this book was written?聽
  
  I'm a bit surprised by this reaction. I think what Le Carr茅 is doing is showing that that whole world of the China watchers in Hong Kong is one that is being bypassed by the developments in the real world. It is even made quite explicit by old Craw. But also it is set during the Vietnam war - therefore before 1975.
  
  When in the 1970s I read books written in and about the 1950s (Alan Sillitoe for example) they seemed of another epoch although set only 20 years before. But I wouldn't have called them "quaint" which to me implies deliberately olde worlde type stuff.
  
  I find Le Carr茅 portrayal of the period and the characters really draws me in and makes me feel I understand the people and their motivations (some more than others of course).
  
  THS is not one of my favourites - the ones I've read until they're falling to bits are Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Smiley's People. But the more recent ones are very good too.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message13

• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  Well, I just posted my initial reaction. I found the dialogue 'quaint'. Maybe that wasn't the right word, but it is like watching a film where everyone is smoking. It just looks 'funny' these days. Well, to me!
  
  Well, I've already said that this is the first spy novel I've read (may be my last!). I am really interested in all these comments, though.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message14

• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Small boy in third row (U2247664) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  Bette, why not try reading Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy? It should really be read before THS anyway. Very interesting posts from HenGog and Peggy about how Le Carr茅 shows the passing of an old order. It's also about Britain's diminishing role and importance in the world. Facing up to the end of empire.
  
  Le Carr茅's spy novels are about so much more than spying. In fact, I'd say that spying is simple the backdrop he uses (and a fascinating backdrop in itself) to explore themes and aspects of human nature.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message15

• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  why not try reading Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy? It should really be read before THS anyway.聽
  /Time/, Rachel. I am really struggling to keep up with the reading group (and this was a real door-stopper of a book).

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message16

• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  PS, thanks for the suggestion, and I'll keep it (and others) in mind.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message17

• Message 18

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Saturday, 29th October 2011

  Well, I've already said that this is the first spy novel I've read (may be my last!).聽
  
  I think that would be a pity because there are some good ones. Right up to date : those by Stella Rimington (first public and first woman head of MI6).

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message18

• Message 19

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Sunday, 30th October 2011

  One of the interesting things about reading the book "backwards," as it were, is that some of the comments here highlight some of the odd features of the book. I think I had been dimly aware of the general Madonna/whore depiction of women, but I was really taken aback by the description of Natalie, the secretary, whose "legs go straight up to its bottom." Not only is the word "bottom" strangely reticent when two men are talking to each other, but the impersonal "its" struck me very forceably. I'm now on the look-out for any favourable references to women, and so far they are few and far between.
  
  The jargon thing is also beginning to irritate me: "If you can't cache the take you must at least queer the scent." I think I know what it means, but it seems somehow a trifle arch, if you see what I mean.
  
  I think that having heard the radio adaptation first I have been rather spoiled, because the story works well as a story, but once you get down to the basics, there doesn't seem a whole lot more to offer - the depiction of character seems particularly thin. This is not, for me, a fault, but it does mean that for the sheer size of the book I had hoped for rather more character - and not in the obvious sense of piling quirk on quirk. Much of the "local atmosphere" also appears more of a travelogue, and really not that interesting, though I'd be interested to hear other views on this.
  
  I shall persevere, however, because there is definitely something in the book that makes you want to go on reading.

  Link to this forum: November book club - The Honourable Schoolboy

  Report message19

Back to top