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Shocking revelation
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this one.
Last night, out of the blue during a family meal, a very close relative's brother revealed that their stepfather sexually abused him when he was 15. He told his brother at the time (he was 16) but he didn't take much notice, did nothing about it, didn't mention it to their mother because she had bi-polar and was extremely happy with their stepfather. He was a really good father to the boys, and loved them both, but this...
I know this man, and have taken him into my own family, and been a close friend in many ways, but I'm now feeling in such a dilemma because part of me respects that the two brothers have got over it, (so they say) and one has forgiven the other, but I don't know that I can.
Am I right in feeling like this, or should I go along with the pretence that everything is just fine? -
Message 2
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
*pretense*
The Viking thinks that as both the stepsons have apparently got over it, and are willing to continue with their relationship with their stepfather, then I should continue to be friends with him as before. He hates the thought that it will all be dragged up again after all these years, and although he is disgusted with this man, the same as me, he thinks it may cause more trouble than the brothers actually want in their lives right now.
We see him fairly frequently, and no one else in the family knows about it as the mother died a long time ago. She (allegedly) never knew. -
Message 3
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Lilo, it has changed how you feel about the man. But I am inclined to the Viking's view that if the stepsons continued with their relationship with him, they have chosen not to rake up old problems. .
On t'other hand has the abused boy, now a man, 'got over it' if he brought it up at a family gathering?.
I do recall years ago when people were having 'recovered memory' counselling an elderly lady speaking on the radio. A counsellor had discovered that as a child someone in the family had abused her. So there she was in her 70's having lived her life, brought up her family, well lovved grandma, and she said so sadly 'But what do I do now'. -
Message 4
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
I think the answer to how you should react is 'it depends':
In relation to the brothers' interaction with their stepfather, it seems to me that it is up to them to choose how they do this, and it's not up to you to interfere with it.
On the other hand, how you conduct your relationship with the stepfather is up to you.
And if you discovered that the step-father was in the process of enrolling as a scout leader, I think you would carry a moral responsibility to let someone know what you have heard. -
Message 5
Posted by La Sharpissima (U1476061) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Not trying to be controversial but why do you automatically believe the accuser? Is it possible that he is not telling the truth? Why did he suddenly reveal it now having kept quiet and been over it for so long?
I think there are more questions which need to be answered before you can make any sort of judgement.
Does what you have been told make any sense, would you have thought it possible at all before the meal?
I don't know any of the people but it is an incredibly easy accusation to make but virtually impossible either to prove or, equally, to refute.
All that being said I am glad it is not me who has just been told this as I have no idea how I would feel.
Sorry, no help at all but I do think there are questions to be asked and answered. -
Message 6
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
I wouldn't do anything for now, but ask lots of questions to myself.
If it happened when the boys were 15 & 16, how long ago was that? 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? How long ago it was might affect what I decide to do in the end.
Why has it been brought up now? Has something happened in the boy's life to bring it back up to the surface? (I say boy, because it's clearer than saying man, which could also refer to the stepfather.) I was told about a particular family skeleton in the cupboard because I was old enough to have some understanding and no longer in the middle of exams or anything - and the particular timing was around a birthday. A lot of this came back again after my parents' deaths - because it removes any possibility of asking the unasked questions. So I wondered if there has been some event like that to bring things back.
I do understand how this sort of revelation turns things upside down - if it's true, then what else might you not know about this man? If it's not true, then that's going to affect how your belief in the boy.
I think I probably wouldn't stay anything - unless he is involved with children, through teaching or voluntary work or whatever, and then I think I would probably suggest to the boy that he should consider the children who currently have to deal with his stepfather, and offer him support in that.
But I'm glad it's not me in your position. -
Message 7
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Oh dear, Lilo, I wish I could advise, but I find myself in a similar situation and I don't know what to think myself. In my case it's a cousin who has revealed that her father interfered with her 2 little girls and she says that he did the same to her. I find it really hard to believe it, knowing her dad and knowing her and her family very well when we were growing up and there really was no hint of anything untoward at the time. She has several siblings all of whom are shocked and horrified by her accusations and they are struggling to be civil towards her. Obviously I can't say to her that I don't believe her, but I really don't. My sisters, on the other hand, want nothing more to do with the man concerned. The thing is though, my sisters weren't as close to the family as I was and they don't know the man as well as I do. It's a horrible, horrible situation whether it's true or not, and it's not helped by the fact that the accused man is now very ill and not able to speak for himself in any way.
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Message 8
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
I find it really hard to believe it, knowing her dad and knowing her and her family very well when we were growing up and there really was no hint of anything untoward at the time.Â
This is -- according to the bulk of verified research on the subject -- generally how abusers get away with it.
Lilo, how very very difficult for you.
Bear's questions are good ones -- why is it coming up now? I suspect that, if it did happen, it's something that is never "got over". And that something has triggered such statements. In bot the cases mentioned on this thread there is considerable power at stake -- and power has a way of wanting to preserve itself -- or rather, those with power will do what they can to maintain their power.
Research evidence also suggests that it is tremendously important for such people as Loopy Lobes' cousin, and your relatives, Lilo, to be listened to.
It is such an horrific thing to think about (incest taboos are rightly amongst the strongest) that we do find it hard to think that someone we "know" could behave so disgustingly. But because it is such an horrific & disgusting thing, maybe that also mean that such accusations are not made frivolously. Particularly after some time. If the Viking's response is the general family response ie "It was a long time ago, you're over it, don't bring it up, don't rock the boat" then is it any wonder such knowledge/experience /accusations (take your pick) have not been made more public?
And imagine if the accusations are true? How would it be to be abused, and then, not believed?
Virginia Woolf wrote once about being sexually abused by her much older half-brother when she was under 10. She killed herself in her 50s. Did she ever "get over it"? -
Message 9
Posted by Alsdouble (U524298) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
Jayzus Lilo, that's a bombshell innit.
If time has passed and he is no longer a danger, (or is he?) Then perhaps you should do nothing.
It's a tricky one because if something happened to someone else, and you had done nothing.....
Phew.
You know the facts. I don't. -
Message 10
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Saturday, 12th November 2011
LoopyLobes, that /is/ a horrible situation for the whole family. Whatever the triuth of the matter, your cousin and her children willl need support. Whether the accusation is true or malicious, something must have triggered it, especially at a time when her father is so ill.
Also it is entirely likely there would have been no sign of anything untoward because abusers expect a high degree of secrecy from the chosen child, who shares something only the two of them know about. -
Message 11
Posted by La Bez (U14670366) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
It's exactly how they get away with it and often it may just be one child in the family who is singled out as the "chosen one".
Not incest but things have been rocked over here in the past week over an abuse scandal in which authorities covered things up and for once it's nothing to do with the Catholic church. It does involve another "god" though - that of college football (American) and the money it brings in to colleges. It involves a coach who abused several young boys - some on college campus - and has resulted in the sacking of the head coach and the college president who knew and said nothing and failed to report it to the police. Most shocking is the the guy who actually saw the offender in the shower with a 10 yearold boy and hushed it up.
And perhaps even more shocking is the reaction of students at the college who rioted in the aftermath of the incident coming out this week - not about the abuse or in support of the victims, but at the sacking of the head coach who is a "legend" -
Message 12
Posted by geepers (U6804393) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
A little girl who is very very dear to me made allegations, when she was very young, that her father (Z) had abused her. Her mother (A) always believed her, but for various reasons, there was no prosecution.
Z was living with B when the allegations were made - B talked a lot to A about what had apparently happened, but stayed with Z, because she knew he woudn't have done it. Some years later they split up - B's daughter's school and social services had both said she (daughter) was saying/doing things that indicated the possibility she was being abused.
Z then got together with C. C initiated contact with A and talked to her at great length about what had happened when A's daughter was young. C stayed with Z because she simply didn't believe what was being said about him. A few weeks ago, 11 years on, A was contacted by C's solicitors asking her to give evidence in court against Z, who is accused of abusing his very young son with C.
This is exactly how they get away with it. -
Message 13
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
This is just to acknowledge your replies, and to thank you for your consideration. I don't have time today (another family thing) to reply, but I've read them quickly. I think I may be seeing the man today. I can't help but think it will change my opinion of our friendship, but I'll let you know how I felt.
I never dreamt anything like this would happen in our family, but I suppose that's the usual response.
"The Boy" is now 40 and one of those macho kind of characters who will never admit weakness. The subject came up during a discussion about why he and his brother didn't see their stepfather for many many years. They are now in touch again and I don't think they want to go backwards.
He is in contact with his step grandchildren, but always in a crowd.
I do believe it because I've heard other things about his sexual behaviour involving women as well.
I thought last night that I should never have posted it, but I'm glad I did. You're all lovely. Thank you for your time. I'll be back some time next week to read it more thoroughly.
Lilo -
Message 14
Posted by Apple-Cart (U9035861) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
Lilo, you say that the revelation was made at a family meal. Could you, or someone else who was also at the meal, approach your relative's brother and have a further conversation... something aong the lines, of, 'what you said at the meal has concerned me and I wanted to make sure you had the support you need'.
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Message 15
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
Hello Lilo.
I've very mixed feeling about this.
I would be inclined to believe the brothers, though as Sharpers has said it's not proven and you don't know the degree of abuse.
The pinching of little girls bums by dirty old uncles was rife when I was a kid. Child abuse now.
To the extent that these things are suppose to grow less over time, well it depends on the damage done. People (kids) feel very, very unsure about accusing a parent or guardian about abuse. There are issues about them being believed and in many cases this results in love being with held.
It's a complex dilemma. As has been said upthread, why reveal this now, .
Answers to these problems aren't easy, well they are easy to theorise about, but acting on them poses quite a different set of problems.
I'm not sure that a person ever forgives the betrayal of a close adult. Even if they say they have. -
Message 16
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
I was staggered to hear a few years ago that a close relative had had unwelcome sexual behaviour from another close relative. the latter died quite a long time ago, so the problems of still having to meet that person do not exist, thank goodness. I can relate to the dilemma of the OP, though.
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Message 17
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
I'm not sure that a person ever forgives the betrayal of a close adult. Even if they say they have.Â
Yes, I've seen that up close SweetFeet. Not sexual abuse, which is so very very charged, but other kinds of dysfunction.
BTW, Lilo, it struck me that the situation you describe in your OP is extraordinarily like the plot on /Festen/ . Also it often strikes me that "instinct" is often the very telling and logical processing of many tiny, tiny details, not illogical emotion at all. -
Message 18
Posted by Shirley Knott (U14164156) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
Lilo - apple cart's post 14 says what I would have said. Let the lad know you are there if he needs support - this reassures him that you do not dis-believe him.
Such a difficult one. Absolutely agree with those who have described the nature of the behaviour of the abuser.
They rely - and positively flourish- in the "No! - him, I can't believe it, he's a lovely bloke" scenario.
A perfect example of how once something is said, you can't unsay it, eh Lilo?
Oh dear, chuck - my best to all involved and I hope for the outcome that suits you all, whatever that may be.
x -
Message 19
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
I'm amazed that I've read to the last post in this thread withOUT hearing even one mention of the film 'Festen'. It was the first association I had, what with the Viking connection and all.
I'm also often amazed at what people tell of what goes on in families and then 'all do as if it's perfectly normal'. I can never see one of my friend's fathers without remembering the tale of how he apparantly once beat a cow (a cow! cows are Really Big Animals!) to death in a temper in front of a group of my pal's schoolfriends. I see him as a psycopath but to them he's apparantly Just Dad. When I first met her (in her early 20's) she had broken fingers from him. Her partner doesn't believe this story. (Hmm, they say abused women pick abusing partners and there have been, um, incidents.)
Families are weird. (Mijn were, of course, weird too but I have absolutely no conception of anyone, other than mad schoolteachers with leather belts then, ever ever hitting me.)
Sorry I've drifted off topic here, sorry Lilo. I have no experience of sexual abuse (sheltered life me) but I would be concerned about why it's been brought up now and what the likelihood was of it reccurring. -
Message 20
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
Mijn wereÂ
Your spelling's gone a bit Dutch, Campbell. ;- ) -
Message 21
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
aye, sorry about that; same word, same pronunciation, same meaning, different spelling.
--
I remember 'Festen' as being one of the most truly shocking films I ever saw... And brilliantly made too of course. Transferring the raw energy of a single take theatre experience to the screen. Thanks for reminding me of it by this thread Lilo. Hope you sort out in your head where you want to go with this dilemma. -
Message 22
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Monday, 14th November 2011
I've read all your replies again, and I have a few answers to questions. I know how it drives you crazy if you never have answers.
In short (something totally alien to me)
The Boy is now 42
The Stepdad is now 74
The revelation came out when during a family chat (not many present) the question was asked, why the long years of separation and silence between you?
The reply came out instantly, like a cork from a bottle. It left us all stunned naturally, and me being me, asked more questions. TB maintained during my cross examination (I don't take prisoners when it comes to serious things like child abuse) that he was over it, that he had forgiven his stepdad that he was happy to see him again, and that he hoped everyone would just forget it and not let it upset the family balance. He didn't seem relieved to say it, more of a swaggering attitude, which is very like him. No counselling sessions for this man.
So. Lunch yesterday and the stepfather arrived.
He is usually jolly and friendly, but seemed subdued. I couldn't help thinking I wonder if he's remembering. Bearing in mind he hadn't seen his stepson for at least 12 years. Despite still feeling huge shock (I too led a sheltered life when it comes to these things) I couldn't help being other than I always am with him, and got chatting about his problems. It seems he is in poor health and has huge business worries.
I couldn't help treating him exactly how I always do. I made the decision when I saw him that it isn't my problem to deal with right now. That if the stepson maintains he's over it, then I have to respect *his* decision above everything else. I don't really believe him, but it doesn't matter what I believe. I do believe it happened, because stepson isn't the kind of man to make things like that up, let alone talk about it, so there would be no reason to do that.
As for the man being a threat to anyone. No. I can't understand why he would do such a thing, and although he hasn't led a totally *normal* kind of sex life (threesomes with mixed partners etc) I have never seen anything that would lead me to think he could be capable. Oh well...
I think a few people were holding their breaths yesterday wondering if I would go off on one. In true British fashion I guess they just want things to be hushed up and not to make a fuss.
Again, thank you so much for your considered replies and I hope it didn't open up too many cans of worms.
Lilo -
Message 23
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Monday, 14th November 2011
The other brother, a few years older, was never approached by his stepfather in any inappropriate way, but still suffers huge guilt that he did nothing when his little brother told him. He seemed more reluctant to talk about it than the victim. They seem to be clinging on the knowledge that this man made their mother really happy in the last years of her quite short life, and that he was a good (!) father to them after their own abandoned them.
I know it has affected how I feel about this man inwardly, but I shall carry on being his friend if that's what the family want. -
Message 24
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
Perhaps you might want to get some information about childhood sexual abuse and how it affects people.
There's a lot of press reporting about high profile abuse cases - and there are quite a lot of memoirs.
I'm thinking more of the factsheets produced by organisations like Mind or Survivors UK (which works with males who have been sexually abused, but who would - I think - also assist women who know men in this situation.
I think it's a question of taking some time to reflect on what you've been told and it's implications. Rather than making instant decisions about what needs to be done. -
Message 25
Posted by sesley (U4024157) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
Just because on the surface things might be ok,does not mean all is well, this persons dirty deeds,has had a effect on his victims and needs to answer for his crimes,and how many others has he harmed? sex abuse is a lifelong sentence for the victims .Can this person your friend be trusted amongst young children knowing now what you know.
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Message 26
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
Just because on the surface things might be ok,does not mean all is well, this persons dirty deeds,has had a effect on his victims and needs to answer for his crimes,and how many others has he harmed? sex abuse is a lifelong sentence for the victims .Can this person your friend be trusted amongst young children knowing now what you know. I'm well aware of the dangers he may or may not still pose and as far as I know he has no dealings with children of any age.
I've thought long and hard about this, and if the family want me to stay silent, then I have to respect their wishes, or risk blowing it all apart and losing them as well.
It's very different when you find yourself on the other side. I always thought how could anyone stay silent, but I'm seeing it all from another perspective. -
Message 27
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
These things are much less clear cut, than one might think.
The wishes and needs of are anyone who has survived abuse are very important. Children and young people will not have had any choice when someone older and more powerful abused them. But they will need to feel they have a choice about who they do - and don't confide in later on. And it's important to respect these choices.
But it is a big shock for someone to learn that a person in the family circle has been abused. Most organisations dealing with rape and sexual abuse also offer services to the supporters of survivors of abuse So it would be quite possible to ring a phoneline and talk to someone in confidence about how this has made you feel. -
Message 28
Posted by Adaptery (with brackets) (U13803003) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
Maybe he thinks that if the family know, they can keep a quiet watch.
My grandmother told me that her (lifelong) best friend's father had made a pass at her when she was quite young. (Her friend was the nicest person ever and never left home.) She kept quiet, as one does, but he had gone on to do the same thing to my mother. She realised straight away and she was very angry and guilty about it. I don't think it was ever mentioned between them, and I don't know what actually happened. -
Message 29
Posted by sesley (U4024157) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
the thing about sex abusers is that they think they can get away with it,while the victim stays quiet and the family either deny it or hide it,yet they continue to be a danger to vunerable people . Meanwhile the victims carry around with them the guilt and with self blame. Sex abuse must thee most destructive crime going,its effects can have devastating long term effects on the victims,who may think its ok and go on to abuse themselves or maybe self destruct another way. If this man is guilty then he as a criminal should be made to answer to his crimes .
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Message 30
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
From the Frequently Asked Questions section of the Survivors UK site
"Will being sexually violated make me an abuser?
The vast majority of men who have experience childhood or adult sexual violation do NOT go on to sexually offend against children or other adult men. Statistical analysis is unreliable and current thinking is that the figure is around 10%."
There are certain environments - particular kinds of workplace, within voluntary settings etc - where there is a very clear responsiblity/duty to report allegations of sexual abuse to a designated person.
But outside those environments one's duty is less clear. In the situation being described here, I would think that my first duty was to support the abused person - and going against their expressed wishes would not be a supportive act. (One might even argue that it was a further act of abuse. Their own feelings and their needs were being regarded as unimportant.) By respecting their wishes and choices, I would hope that the door might be kept open for further possible conversations. It is common for it to take many years before people to get to a point where they want to talk about the experience of abuse. -
Message 31
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
It really isn't as simple as bringing a case against his stepfather for something that *allegedly* happened such a long time ago. For the reasons FoM pointed out, that the abused person really doesn't want to. He probably won't talk about it ever again, knowing him as I do, and definitely sees it as something that has not had the slightest influence on him or his life. It may have, but as I don't know, and it's not up to me to bring the case to the courts, then I have to respect his wishes.
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