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The Sexuality of the Very Old
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
I could start from the perspective that everybody has sexual feelings. It's not just the preserve of the young or the middle-aged or the maturer than the middle-aged.
And just because you are very frail and widowed, those feelings and needs are going to be there somewhere. Well, probably, more so.
But some very old men give me the creeps. It's the trying to make a meal of social kissing. The inappropriate conversation and comments.
Not sure what I can do, when I encounter this sort of thing. Ignore it and try and keep my distance. But not easy/possible on some occasions.
(If it's younger people, you can say, 'Get lost creep' Or the equivalent. But I think the elderly sometimes use the fact they're old, to get away with things.) -
Message 2
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
My FiL (on his way to 90) frequently tried to pat my bum and touch my breasts. He would also say things - though as his medication affected his speech I was never completely sure that he'd said what I thought he'd said. It was horrible. Did I tell OH that his lovely dad was an old letch? I learned to keep FiL at arm's length, avoided situations when we might be expected to kiss (he always went for my mouth) and it wasn't till well after his father had died that I told my partner about the fondling and made a joke of it. It made me wonder how many other women find themselves in a similarly difficult situation.
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Message 3
Posted by The Flea (U14601609) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
On of the first signs of my Granny's dementia was when she seemed to lose her inhibitions and was really quite rude - no sexually rude just rude rude. 'Oh, haven't you got fat, what a wrinkled neck you've got, oh look at that SPOT etc etc'.
I wonder if with men the sexual inhibitions might be lost?
flea
(Yet to be groped.) -
Message 4
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Having been "touched up" as a child by an elderly chap who went to the church my parents used to haul me along to I find this really offensive. So my approach is to say in a firm and clear voice. Please don't do xxxx I find it offensive. From then I stick my hand out as a greeting and if they try it again I say VERY loudly so other people can hear. I have told you I find being groped/slobbered over offensive and I've asked you not to do it. If you continue then I'll consider it assault.
Doesn't bother me if they are family/friends or work colleagues. I will not stand for anyone invading my space.
I do appreciate it's harder for others to be so up front but if you as a grown woman don't tackle it then you may find they are doing something similar to a young girl/child who doesn't know how to stop it.
Just my opinion -
Message 5
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Having been "touched up" as a child by an elderly chap who went to the church my parents used to haul me along to I find this really offensive. So my approach is to say in a firm and clear voice. Please don't do xxxx I find it offensive. From then I stick my hand out as a greeting and if they try it again I say VERY loudly so other people can hear. I have told you I find being groped/slobbered over offensive and I've asked you not to do it. If you continue then I'll consider it assault.
Doesn't bother me if they are family/friends or work colleagues. I will not stand for anyone invading my space.
I do appreciate it's harder for others to be so up front but if you as a grown woman don't tackle it then you may find they are doing something similar to a young girl/child who doesn't know how to stop it.
Just my opinion
Ìý
Sympathies re the very distrressing past experience. However I think the 'you have to report/name and shame for the sake of the other potential victims' is a) difficult and b) depends on circumstances - i.e - the severity of the inappropriate behaviour, the fact that the person who is causing offence may be vulnerable themselves..
I think one problem that the very elderly may have is what's been referred to in my hearing as 'disinhibition', if their cognitive functioning starts to deteriorate.. In the same way that small children or those with learning difficulties may invade your space, touch people they don't know well, not be able to understand complex social codes etc, the very old may also behave inappropriately.
The situation I am in at the moment involves being part of a very small rota of visits to someone who's currently having a crisis in terms of their physical health. If I were to withdraw from that rota, it would cause real strain for one person in particular, who I care about. The crisis will pass soon and I may then discuss the situation with that person. In the mean time I will just deflect any inappropriate topics/remarks with 'I don't want to talk about that' during visits. -
Message 6
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
For me I think you have just put your finger squarely on the issue - so that's even more important then that you reinforce with the person specifically that it's not appropriate by telling them in much the way you would a small child. So for example if a child was constantly putting it's hand up your skirt you'd remove the hand and explain why it was inappropriate to do that (and you would do it as many times as it happened until the behaviour stopped). Some people don't have the confidence to do this with the older folk but if they really do have their inhibitor switched off then you have to treat them as you would a child who doesn't have it switched on yet. You are reinforcing what is and isn't acceptable behaviour.
I do have to say I think your support for your fellow carers is admirable - many would just "disappear" from the rota, however I don't think you should put up with it and I would mention it to your fellow carers so that you can compare notes and decide if it is inhibitor off or whether it's a more deliberate ploy and have a joint strategy for dealing with it.
I'd also make sure that no children are left alone with the individual - even if it's relatives. Just my hang up but then as you noted - been there got the t-shirt. The guy who was touching me up was also disabled so the first time I put it down to him not being able to control his hands, when it happened a few times more I tried moving away and he got closer again. So I told my dad. Words were had and he was never on his own with me again and when we were in a room my dad was always watching him like a hawk and surprise surprise his inhibitor was quickly switched back on.
It's a bit like the elderly people who are rude to youngsters then complain about the younger generation. When you point out that the youngsters are behaving back as they are behaved towards then the elderly people often become politer and miraculously the young people become more polite to them! It's about reinforcing behavioural appropriateness for me - just like with kids.
I do hope you resolve it - you must be feeling uncomfortable all the time with this individual at the moment. You have my deepest sympathies
G -
Message 7
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
It's almost the stereotype of the old bloke chasing the young nurse around the ward isn't it?
I've encountered this and I just say "Do you mind" or similar. Using my strict voice of course.
It's not an age thing particularly,it's a respect thing. -
Message 8
Posted by Pahnda (U14681704) on Wednesday, 23rd November 2011
Agree sweetFeet, I don't understand the reason for generalising 'The Sexuality of the Very Old'. There are creepy men in all age groups, maybe they never change!! They need telling 'no' firmly whether they are 19 or 90.
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Message 9
Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Let me explain why I've highlighted the 'very old'. Perhaps I've also been thinking more about 'very old males'
- The disinhibition mentioned above
- Failures of short-term memory, which may mean unwanted behaviour is repeated, despite others attempts to get them to stop.
- Codes of behaviour which may have been accepted a generation or two back are adhered to. There's been no learning of newer conventions.
- The increased loneliness of the very old. (Mobility problems. Bereavement. Spouse and friends may no longer be alive. Social isolations, aggravated in some cases by inadequate pensions etc.
- Vulnerable themselves. (Potential for abuse by carers. May be neglected.)
- Possiblity to make use of this perceived vulnerability. (Not seen as 'powerful/sexual/potentially predatory in the way that younger men will be.)
- Physical difficulties in relation to sexual performance.
- Less likely than younger men to make use of internet porn, paid sexual services etc. -
Message 10
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I thought this was going to be a very different thread. A serious discussion of sexuality of the old. However it seems to be a 'dirty old men are annoying' thread. Seems a bit unfair to all the old people who don't bother others with their sexuality.
Having said that, GEm's post was very informative. I'll sure I'll remember it if ever I need to. -
Message 11
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I think that's extraordinarily unfair about the OP. FoM has made it clear what she is concerned about. She is concerned for the elderly person's vulnerability, and as such has not told him to back off etc. I see her anxieties as a delicate balance between trying to care for an elderly person, for who she feels responsible in some ways, and preserving her own sense of self. Hardly 'dirty old men are annoying' -- indeed, I am impressed at the extent to which FoM seems to be suppressing her normal views and rights not to be touched in a way she does not want, in the interests of the elderly person's cares.
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Message 12
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I wasn't criticising the OP. Just saying that from the title I'd expected a different sort of thread somehow. 'My bad' (as the yoof apparantly say).
And it wasn't so much the OP that gave the 'dirty old men are annoying' view, more the following mails. -
Message 13
Posted by Pahnda (U14681704) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I am still not sure whether the OP was about one old person or about older people in general. Having worked with older people for many years, I have an instinctive aversion to any generalisations about how older people behave. Age is no excuse for behaving in a sexually inappropriate manner, neither is youth or middle age for that matter.
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Message 14
Posted by Redbookish (U1335018) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I thought FoM made it clear in #5, that she is involved in the care of one person. And that she's putting her own concerns to one side to do this. Must be difficult, and I thought her posts have been dignified (about the elderly person) and moving.
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Message 15
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Campbell in Clogs:
Oh, right, that's me in the doghouse, is it? I wasn't generalising, merely empathising with FoM and suggesting that perhaps this isn't an uncommon issue. I'm sure if you would like to develop the topic in a different direction there would be interest.
Gem, I wouldn't normally accept the kind of behaviour I described without a shriek and a clear laying down of acceptable boundaries. But when one is dealing with someone who is vulnerable, heavily medicated and possibly disinhibited I think the boundaries become blurred. As it wasn't difficult to keep out of his reach, that's the course I chose to take. -
Message 16
Posted by Pahnda (U14681704) on Friday, 25th November 2011
I'm sorry if I (and maybe others) got it wrong, but the OP stated 'But some very old men give me the creeps.' This did not indicate that FOM was facing a particular situation with an individual she was caring for. Also the title 'The Sexuality of the Very Old' suggested that she was generalising about old men.
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Message 17
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 25th November 2011
>>>Campbell in Clogs:
Oh, right, that's me in the doghouse, is it?<<<
eh, no. I wasn't criticising anybody's behaviour (please point out where I did and I'll apologise for doing so) and have every sympathy with those dealing with unwanted attentions. I just mentioned that I'd expected a different thread from the title. Is that ok with you? -
Message 18
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 25th November 2011
I wasn't criticising the OP. Just saying that from the title I'd expected a different sort of thread somehow. 'My bad' (as the yoof apparantly say).
And it wasn't so much the OP that gave the 'dirty old men are annoying' view, more the following mails. Ìý
Something to do with that last sentence perhaps? -
Message 19
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 25th November 2011
yes but the dirty old men are annoying is a perfectly valid view to have. (And looking back, the OP actually did imply this too.) As I've said 3 times now (I know I'm boring myself too) I just expected something different from the title. Sometimes thread titles are misleading. Sometimes people comment on this. Without meaning to start an argument. As you were.
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Message 20
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Friday, 25th November 2011
I'm not sure what you can do about this if anything.
If an elderly person has lost mental capacity, not much I suspect. After all, are they going to follow a reasoned argument about the rights and wrongs of inappropriate sexual behaviour?
Probably not.
On the other hand, no matter how frail, lonely or anything else, if the man in question is behaving in a way that is causing distress to visitors or carers, they should be told in no uncertain terms.
Just because a person is over a certain age does not mean they cannot be responsible for their behaviour. Sexual or otherwise. -
Message 21
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 25th November 2011
An argument is the last thing I need at the moment, Campbell! Threads have a life of their own. If you have a different point of view, you're free to broaden the debate.
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Message 22
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 25th November 2011
oh good, we both agree we don't need an argument. I'm glad about that Morganish. Daft thing is, I don't even particularly hAve a point of view on this subject, I just dropped in and made an (I thought) innocent comment that from the title I'd expected a different discussion somehow. I was immediately accused of being unfair to the OP, whereas I'd no intention of being unfair to anyone - I was just expressing an opinion. In a fairly neutral way as far as I can see. (Must be the stroppy Scottish accent that does it...)
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