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Otherwise - difficult father-in-law
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Message 1.Â
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
As a very sporadic poster to say the least, I hope you don't mind me unburdening myself; I'm not even sure whether or not I will eventually post this at all, but if I do find the courage to, any advice would be greatly appreciated.
My husband and I have been together for ten years, and in all that time, my father-in-law has been a significant stress factor in my life. It started with sexist and misogynist comments made quite casually and without an obvious reason, and while they were not directed at me in particular, I felt there was something very deliberate in their delivery. When I talked with my husband later, he never seemed to have heard them at all. My husband and his family are Dutch and I live in the Netherlands, and as my Dutch wasn't that good at the time, I put much of what I thought I'd heard down to misunderstandings.
The sexist slurs were soon followed by more personal attacks, often in the form of inappropriate comments about my father, who had died shortly before I met my husband, or the fact that I was unemployed at the time. I started thinking of him as painfully tactless, but still without malice. Now, these comments usually have something to do with my children, suggesting, for instance, that they have drowned (there is a really horrible word for that in Dutch) or otherwise died in awful ways when they are quiet, or that they have polio when they eat a lot. I have long since come to the conclusion that these comments have the sole purpose of upsetting me, all the more so since he has also started criticising random things about my husband and me - my appearance, our new house ('stamp-sized garden'), our choice of clothes, furniture, car, etc - in a way that doesn't give me a fair chance to answer back. If I try, he turns his deafness up a notch and ignores me.
When I met my husband, his brother was married to a woman who seemed to be universally hated in the family. I concluded that she wasn't a nice person, and when she and my b-i-l got divorced and b-i-l soon introduced us to a new girlfriend, this new woman was welcomed into the family with open arms. Several years later, she took me into her confidence, and it turned out that my f-i-l treats her exactly the same as he does me, possibly even worse. The fact that he has picked on the one thing calculated to upset her most, ie her constant struggle to lose weight, is proof to me that he's deliberately trying to hurt her. I am actually starting to wonder whether the dislike that existed against my b-i-l's first wife hadn't all come from my f-i-l.
After the polio-comment, I've avoided visiting my in-laws for what I recently realised has been almost a year. My mother spent Christmas at our house for the first time ever, and we decided to invite my husband's family to a Christmas dinner. My mother wanted to treat us to an English Christmas, so she took a Christmas cake with her and cooked a turkey. From the moment we sat down at the table, my f-i-l started to make it clear (if you can call mumbled, oblique comments 'clear') that he disapproved of the turkey (as it later turned out, he thought it was 'American'). Luckily, my mother can't understand Dutch, so she never noticed. I had asked my b-i-l to bring something for starters, and he had made little dishes of smoked salmon and trout. My f-i-l kept going on about the delicious salmon, and finally said that if he had to choose between it and the turkey, he'd take the salmon. I told him that if that was how he felt, he was free to go home after the starters. This is the first time in ten years I've flung a comment like that back in his face – insulting me is one thing, but I think my mother would have (justly) been very upset if she'd understood. It has made me think that perhaps my daughter will be next in line, and I've decided I'm not going to stand for any of it any longer, ever again.
My problem is that I don't know where to go from here. My absence at my in-laws has been noticed, but do I have to tell them what is making me stay away? Is it even possible they don't already know? I should mention that personal and emotional things are not discussed much in that family, and talking about this problem would probably lead to emotional clashes and possibly a rupture in the family (my f-i-l is himself easily offended). On the other hand, I'm pretty sure things will escalate sooner or later; I'm completely drained of any goodwill towards him, and my patience has very abruptly run out. I feel like a fighting cock, just waiting to dig in my spurs.
Any wise words? Should I contain myself and try to solve this like an adult, or is it time to fight back? -
Message 2
Posted by Babs (U12089863) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
My first thoughts are...is your husband on your side over this? I know you said he doesn't seem to have heard the comments, but there must have been things he's heard, or heard your reaction to them.
The main thing is that you and your H have a united front. Difficult as it's his father, but outright rudeness shouldn't have to be tolerated in your own home.
I find it rather rich that your father in law is easily offended. Does he not extend that courtesy to others? -
Message 3
Posted by pigsrlovely (U14715579) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
Well done on your response to his salmon v turkey gibe.
There are loads of people like him in the world. I think you have handled it very well so far.
Its difficult to know what to do for the best. People like hime thrive on the distress they know they are dishing out. One way of dealing with it is to 'not hear' what he has said - this will make him feel stupid and not give him anything to feed off in reply.
By retorting you are giving him the power back, saying nothing though is hard to do when you have been slighted, demeaned or bullied.
Keeping your distance has worked in the past and it doesnt seem as if his presence has left a gaping hole in your life.
Let your OH go and visit, deal with him or not, as he only seems to be vincictive towards females. -
Message 4
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
Thanks for your quick replies, Babs and pigsrlovely, it's such a relief to be able to tell this to someone, even anonymously.
Re my husband: I realised when I read through my message before posting it that I'd hardly mentioned his role in all of this, but I was afraid to add another very long story to an already long post. Also, it doesn't feel right to reveal too much personal information about him. Suffice to say that he supports me, but as his relationship with his father has not always been easy, his preferred strategy is to rock the boat as little as possible; this was another reason I kept silent for so long, and why I'd like to avoid open hostilities.
>Well done on your response to his salmon v turkey gibe.
Thank you, I was rather proud of it myself
I've tried the not-hearing strategy, always telling myself that things would get better given time, but part of why I just snapped this time was realising that they haven't, and probably never will. Despite having at last answered back, I was sitting at the breakfast table at two o'clock in the morning that night, eating cornflakes in a fury and without having slept a wink, and it struck me that I'd spent many such nights in the past after visiting in-laws. As you say, I don't miss him or the sleepless nights, so perhaps staying away is the best remedy - it has certainly been very good for my nerves! -
Message 5
Posted by ThisLizzie (U5294918) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
I'd go with what babs said.
My (late) f-i-l treated me in much the same way since before we were married, for about 20 years up until he died.
It had much the same pattern as yours and went on to include our children.
I can remember one visit in particular when he gave two of our daughters one breakfast to share on one plate because, he said, I had 'so many' children (having just given birth to our 3rd daughter which we already knew to be 1 too many in his opinion)
I think it's important to make sure you and your OH are firmly together on whatever action you decide to take.
I stopped going to family gatherings and gradually we both stopped going unless we absolutely had to. I think by doing this we actually gave him more reason to be unkind as it sort of proved him right in his opinion of me and this then spread to my m-i-l and s-i-l so I'm now pretty much hated by them all. My suggestion would be that if it's at all possible (and I know it's not easy) you should try not to hear his unkind remarks.
I'm sorry to say I don't think there's going to be a good outcome but do wish you luck.
Liz -
Message 6
Posted by Babs (U12089863) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
Just a thought.....staying away seems to be working; if your inlaws have noticed, why not let them ask you the reason for your absence? Which would then give you the chance to say quietly that, when your FiL can keep a civil tongue towards you, then you will resume your visits. Use the broken record technique if necessary.
They probably won't ask; and if they do come to their own conclusions, well, as others have said, don't allow yourself to hear their comments.
Life's too short to put up with that sort of nonsense. Awful that you (and your sis in law) have been subjected to it, even worse if he starts on your children. -
Message 7
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
Life's too short to put up with that sort of nonsense. Awful that you (and your sis in law) have been subjected to it, even worse if he starts on your children.Â
And I think that really is the nub of it all. He is a bully of the worst kind and as someone else so wisely said upthread, he thrives on upsetting people and getting reactions to his, frankly, outrageous behaviour.
People like him must NOT be tolerated. They must NOT be allowed to make any more people's lives a misery. I have never been able to understand what drives them to do it but it is surely some kind of illness, a disease that spreads fast around all those who come into contact with him. So my advice would be to cut the contact. To be absolutely clear that you (and honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would insist on this for your children too) will not visit him in future as he so very clearly has no love for his family and no time for 'normal' family life. It seems that his behaviour has been unchanged for years so there is really no reason to expect that it will do so now.
My DD had similar issues from a very domineering FiL when she first married. Fortunately for her, she is a chip off the old block and put a stop to all that straight away and she also insisted that her OH did the same. He had really had enough himself anyway and only needed her support to make the break. They now see them on very, very rare occasions and the FiL knows that all it will take is one word of the kind heard in the distant past, and they will see them no more.
You need to protect yourself and, it seems too, that you now need to protect your children from this obnoxious man. If you and your OH take a stand it may well give heart to your SiL and others whose lives are made miserable by him. Courage is all it takes. Bullies must never ever be allowed to win.
Good luck
Savvie -
Message 8
Posted by posh_scouse_pinnedwithpride (U2514024) on Wednesday, 28th December 2011
I would be sorely tempted to say, [loudly] 'Sorry, my Dutch isn't that good, can you repeat that' EVERY time, in front of others.
It doesn't sound as if he's going to change but it may make others [more*] aware of what he's doing.
They must have an inkling even if not to what extent. -
Message 9
Posted by Dirigibles was here (U7278225) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
This is very sad, themustardme, and I admire you for putting up with it. It seems unusually cruel, and one has to wonder what motivates him.
Where is his wife in all this? Do you get on with her? -
Message 10
Posted by Dirigibles was here (U7278225) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Thinking a little more about this, would it be worth challenging him next time*, with something like, 'OK, so what would you like me to do instead, tell me what you'd rather have'?
Turn it around, so that the onus is on him to make the choices, rather than to criticise yours.
If it was your Mil being nasty, it would seem to be a classic 'no-one is good enough for my son' type of jealousy, and as the other dil is treated badly, too, I suppose the same applies to fathers and their son's wives.
(*if there is one) -
Message 11
Posted by Babs (U12089863) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Interesting thought, Dirigibles, and it's one that struck me last night when reading the OP. I always got on great with my MiL, we had interests in common and went out together. My FiL is also a lovely chap but he did seem to struggle letting go of his son (who he tended to call Son in a kind of head-patting manner). He is a controlling man by nature so I accepted it as part of that; we had our run-ins but you could always talk to him, unlike the OP's unfortunate inlaw.
It may not be jealousy as such, but could be fear of losing some control, however subconsciously.
Or, it's that the OP's FiL is just a git. IMNSHO. -
Message 12
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Thank you so much for all your replies.
>I can remember one visit in particular when he gave two of our daughters one breakfast to share on one plate because, he said, I had 'so many' children (having just given birth to our 3rd daughter which we already knew to be 1 too many in his opinion)
ThisLizzie, this is my f-i-l to a T, I can just hear him say something like that.
As many of you have said, the greatest worry is that my children are next to bear the brunt of his behaviour, which is why I want this situation to end now. Savannahlady, I think you may be right that he is ill, and perhaps the situation can only be resolved by him seeking professional help, but I'm not holding my breath... My husband and I have talked things through, and have come to the (admittedly somewhat clichéd) conclusion that f-i-l may still be reacting to a lousy childhood, abandoned by his mother for apparently no other reason than that she wanted to travel. He is possibly trying to prove to himself that every other woman in his life will eventually do the same. In all fairness, I have to say that I think he is actually quite fond of us – I'd only ever heard him say good things about my s-i-l, even calling her a very beautiful woman, and was completely taken aback to learn he was criticising her appearance to her face.
>Where is his wife in all this? Do you get on with her?
She has had to deal with her share of the bullying, but is extremely thick-skinned, and while this is probably the only way to live with someone like that, it means she's inclined to think we're overreacting. I get on with her, but on a more superficial level than this situation calls for.
>If it was your Mil being nasty, it would seem to be a classic 'no-one is good enough for my son' type of jealousy, and as the other dil is treated badly, too, I suppose the same applies to fathers and their son's wives.
I have often thought the same, Dirigibles, and am pretty certain jealousy is part of it. Maybe we should be just be grateful he doesn't have any daughters...
>I would be sorely tempted to say, [loudly] 'Sorry, my Dutch isn't that good, can you repeat that' EVERY time, in front of others.
Pure genius, posh Scouse, I'm definitely going to remember this one! Actually, we've decided on a very similar strategy: nothing he says is going to be allowed to go unnoticed, we'll (both) respond to all his nasty comments in future, but in a completely calm, rational way, either simply by saying that they are not appreciated, or by answering back in the salmon/turkey-comment vein. Basically, we're going to try to spoil his game by refusing to get upset or angry (which won't be easy!), but making sure everyone in the room hears what is going on. If that doesn't work, my f-i-l is going to see even less of me and the kids in the future. -
Message 13
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Well done, you, for coming up with a joint strategy to deal with this. It sounds like it could really work, and stop your FiL in his tracks.
As you surmise, these things are often deep-rooted in the past, and I can well believe that your explanation of his behaviour is correct.
I don't have a FiL, but my difficult rellie is my mother, who is always spectacularly unpleasant to young women, in particular. Very late in life I recognised a pattern to it, and I believe that it results from being supplanted as the youngest child of a large family at the age of 8, while she was possibly away from her family because of war-time evacuation. -
Message 14
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
>Well done, you, for coming up with a joint strategy to deal with this. It sounds like it could really work, and stop your FiL in his tracks.
I really hope so, and I'm very glad too that we're going to try to do this together. It has always been something of a sensitive issue with my husband, as I'm sure you can understand. It must be so much harder to take an objective view when your own parent is the problem. -
Message 15
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 16
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Plenty of great advice has already been given. I wish you luck with this. I must admit I wondered what your OH and mother in law had to say about this man's behaviour.
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Message 17
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Just as a general comment here on the past coming back in the form of impaired behaviours later in life. I come across this sort of rationale a lot in the voluntary work that I do and whilst I can understand that it might be difficult to overcome the shadows of the past in some cases, I think this can be used too often to disguise either genuine nastiness (some people just are) or other forms of mental health problems.
I have a number of friends who had difficult childhoods - I did myself. I was beaten regularly by my mother and subjected to long periods of silence - months in some cases, when she would not speak with me at all. This behaviour is recognised by several people I know. However, we did not continue with it in our own relationships in adulthood or as parents - why? Because we are intelligent, sane human beings who know that such treatments are plain wrong. We didn't like it, we knew it wasn't the right way to behave and we certainly didn't mete it out to others.
I believe that it is wrong to fail to acknowledge the responsibilities that all human beings have for one another or to offer excuses for every kind of anti-social behaviour. Essentially, the majority of people know what kind of behaviour is right and which is wrong: even if they weren't given the best examples as children, society will have shown them in some way or other over the years since. I suspect that many of us here can point to people we know who have made something of themselves in life /in spite of/ their poor starts. Some of the best parents I know had quite savage childhoods in terms of physical and mental abuse heaped on them by supposedly loving parents. The desire to 'get it right' yourself can be a very strong one.
Back to the OP - I am glad you and your OH have agreed on a way forward tmm and I hope it proves to be successful for you.
love
Savvie -
Message 18
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Good point (as always), Savvie.
As people get older, though, it does get harder to change them and moderate their behaviour. I'm thinking that both the FiL, and my Aged P, have been 'cosseted' to an extent by people who enable them to carry on with their abherrant (?is that the right word?) behaviour.
It's a bit too late to use the technique of 'ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good' which one would use with a child. Also, I'm afraid that adults don't actually progress in improving their social skills as much as children can. -
Message 19
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Hi Lili
Yes, I agree that once people become quite elderly and dementia or Alzheimers kicks in, they are lost, in so many ways, to their family and friends.
I just feel that the 'excuse'of a difficult childhood should not be used as an acceptable reason for all forms of aberrent (no 'h' I believe) behaviour in the future. Where does it stop? When are people expected to be adult and part of civilised society? tmm's FiL has been allowed to get away with far too much for far too long IMHO and it probably is too late for him to change now - don't know how old he is, so I could be wrong and I recognise that she has to be seen to be trying. Most people are decent, polite and civilised, even those who've had rough times growing up. A bad childhood doesn't automatically give rudeness and bullying rights to those who experienced it.
Anyway, I am in between cooking curries for NYE when we are having an Indian themed party (someone rang me today and asked if I would be organising Indian themed games!!! Jeeeesh! This is the second major lot of entertaining we have done in ten days (excluding Christmas) so I was inclined to say well, I'd planned the game where the food is all done, the cook goes to bed and everyone else just gets on with it, but I didn't, of course. ANd I'll enjoy it when it comes. Happy New Year to you and yours
love
Savvie -
Message 20
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 29th December 2011
Your party plan made me smile, Savvie. I know an Indian game that you can get the guests to organise:
............
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cricket!!!! -
Message 21
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 30th December 2011
Since you've already had lots of good advice and have formed a plan to combat comments with your partner I'd just like to zoom in on one particular bit of your OP which intrigues me.
>>>> Now, these comments usually have something to do with my children, suggesting, for instance, that they have drowned (there is a really horrible word for that in Dutch) or otherwise died in awful ways when they are quiet, or that they have polio when they eat a lot.<<<<
polio and eating? eh, what's the link here. I'm confused. I know the Dutch tend to use terrible illnesses as swear words a lot of the time but I've yet to come across the polio reference myself. (And I've been here 25 years now.) What a horrible man he sounds.
Mind you, out of pure perversity I think I'd be tempted to try to befriend him... Make a game of it, respond to all his nastiness with exaggerated calmness and kindness. It'll confuse the hell out of him I imagine. If his aim is to upset folk (why???) it might be nice nOt to get upset. Or ask for full explanations of all his nasty asides. Loudly.
'Oh, so you think the kids might have drowned? What an odd thing to say when they're sitting inside. Is it a Dutch thing then? Fear of the dijks breaking again? I do find it fascinating how these cultural things find they're way into the language. In my language we would never say such a thing. In fact we're not known for wishing Any terrible things on our children. Funny that isn't it? Mind you, I've never heard such phrases from anyone else here. Is it a family thing then? No? Just you then?' etc, etc... All said with a nice innocent enquiring puzzled smile. -
Message 22
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Friday, 30th December 2011
>'Oh, so you think the kids might have drowned? What an odd thing to say when they're sitting inside. Is it a Dutch thing then? Fear of the dijks breaking again?
Hee hee!
Actually, I haven't explained that very well, Campbell: the children were taking a bath at the time (under supervision, of course [mine, needless to say])
Re the polio: you know, it never occurred to me to question this, but I've never heard of a link between polio and eating either. The Dutch do have the awful habit of wishing horrible diseases on each other, but this particular brand of awfulness is my f-i-l's very own. He probably noticed how successful it was the first time, after babysitting our daughter a few months after she was born, and we were told on returning home that she had been so quiet he thought she'd probably died of cot death. Not very nice, as you have pointed out.
I'll keep your strategy in mind (quite a collection of them on this thread, I should write them down!).
All the best,
tmm -
Message 23
Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Friday, 30th December 2011
Abhorrent
OR
Aberrant
Different meanings.
Take your pick. -
Message 24
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 30th December 2011
Different meanings.Â
Thank you - I am aware. I thought Lili meant the latter - as in 'deviating from the normal standard of behaviour' . She could have said both I guess - 'abhorrent aberrant behaviour" - meaning 'disgusting abnormal behaviour' but I think that putting abhorrent and aberrant together are alliterative but not very attractive. There is probably a phrase to describe this but I am old and have forgotten more than I ever knew about the minutiae of the Englilsh language.
Savvie
BA Hons English 1968
Happy New Year! -
Message 25
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Friday, 30th December 2011
I meant aberrant, but got the spelling mixed up in my head. This doesn't happen often to me - I guess I'm getting old and tired!
(Yes, I also have a BA (Hons) in Language Studies, but it's no guaranteed defence against typos and mispelling!) -
Message 26
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 30th December 2011
And of course we don't usually worry about spelling in ML so I was only offering a clarification as you'd mentioned the use of the word "is that the word I mean?" or something like that. I actually didn't give a thought to 'abhorrent' as I was sure you meant 'aberrant'.
ANyway you are a good bit younger than me Lili and my age was the reason for adding the post noms bit to show how long ago it was acquired. I am sure much has changed since my undergrad days - half the time I can't understand the words I read in the press or online, so it is in many ways a different language today. Just like my French - my grandchildren who are fluent in the language now, laugh at my French as they tell me I sound like a very old person. Well, yes, and your point is?
Must away now and won't be back for a while.
Happy New Year all! -
Message 27
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 30th December 2011
now now people, do play nicely. Who cares about the spelling? Well, I must admit I do quite a bit, but what with typos and me mixing my English and my Dutch spelling rules half the time I really am the last poster to comment on that of other folk.
Savvie, I do hope it won't be _too_ long a while that you won't be back for.
Meanwhile back with the narky clogs-in-law: any further clarification on the link between polio and food? Any more spectacularly daft phrases from him? Do please keep us informed of any developments (and feel free to join in the Benelux thread if you want some more general cloggy chit-chat - we could do with that languishing thread being woken up a bit now and then and a new face would be very welcome.) -
Message 28
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Saturday, 31st December 2011
Oh dear. I didn't mean any offence to anyone, particularly not to Savvie, who is a lovely lady. I don't mind at all if anyone picks up on my typos - I am a bit of a pedant, myself, and like to get my posts correct if possible. It would be so good if we could go back and correct aberrant posts.
Returning to the OP, hope that the strategy works with the FiL, and that there is an outbreak of peace in that family.
Actually, I wish an outbreak of peace for everyone here. Tis almost the New Year. -
Message 29
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Saturday, 31st December 2011
Campbell, I was so wrapped up in my story, I didn't even notice you were wearing furry running clogs! Thanks for the invitation to the Benelux thread, I'll certainly have a look at it as soon as I get the time - plenty of reading matter there...
No new gems from f-i-l; we don't see them that often, as they don't live close by (if they did, I'd probably be opening a 'Who's recently emigrated to New Zealand' thread...). I'll keep you informed, though. Perhaps I should start a clogs-in-law (love that term!) diary, that would be a good way of making sure I didn't go back on my resolution of standing up to him. And, instead of getting upset by the comments, I could think 'Can't wait to post this on Mustardland!'
Re the spelling: I thought BaraGwenith simply meant we should take our pick of the two meanings, as they were equally applicable. -
Message 30
Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Saturday, 31st December 2011
Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to cause any offence. I read it as abhorrent. As I say, take your pick.
This thread is very sad as I think the FIL in question is cutting himself off from the pleasure his family could give him. What a shame.
It is sad that his behavior is preventing his grandchildren thinking of him with affection.
He is a bully, of course. It is always a toss up whether one faces up to a bully and cause ructions, or shrug and know that he is 'cutting off his nose to spite his face' and feel sorry for the person who has to live with him. And him.
My MIL never really took to me, but she was never, well almost never, hostile to my face. She was a good woman, we were just very different. -
Message 31
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Saturday, 31st December 2011
Lili - it occurred to me whilst cooking (yet more!) for tonight's do that you or someone else might have misread my post yesterday so I came back and lo and behold! Just to clarify for everyone, I wasn't in the least offended and I don't get cross easily at all - if I am mad about something (it's always a 'thing' and not a person - well 95% of the time anyway) you will know about it!! I knew that Lili wasn't 'getting at me' - we have come to know each other better than that over the years - and I wasn't getting at anyone either - just having a conversation.
It just shows how posts can be misinterpreted doesn't it? I think that technology and the ability to communicate fast with many people have been great strides but I think that they have also been the root cause of many disagreements and schisms. Even though I put a smiley face on one of my posts it wasn't enough to show that I was being 'lighthearted' as would have been seen had we all been sitting around chatting.
Now I must get back to the kitchen. I try to keep away from ML for a bit in the New Year - it's not a resolution as such, just me giving it a break. So if I don't speak to you again for a while , I wish you all a very Happy New Year.
Love
Savvie -
Message 32
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Saturday, 31st December 2011
Savvie - thank you for popping back into the thread, although you are so busy with your chapatis, and organising cricket.
I must admit, I didn't think I had caused any offence until the post saying 'play nicely, people' - think it was Campbell. So then I thought 'Oh crumbs, I am an insensitive oaf, and I shouldn't have said that about having studied language and communication' ... and there we go.
I'm thinking of doing some further study soon - maybe online communication and misunderstandings would be a fruitful area - plenty of material in this thread alone to work with!
Very best wishes to all for 2012. I shall not be posting again until next year....... -
Message 33
Posted by Doblinski (U6601372) on Thursday, 5th January 2012
I would be sorely tempted to say, [loudly] 'Sorry, my Dutch isn't that good, can you repeat that' EVERY time, in front of others.Â
Hi themustard me - I too am a sporadic poster. i I thought something along these lines too. Try also repeating the offensive things he says back at him, it'll sort of do the trick for you; add an inflection at the end and you turn it into a question - eg ''Where are those children, have they drowned?!!' You could also add, ''That's a nice way of putting it Jon (put in his name), you and your jokes always so amusing''. Perhaps try to alternate both techniques and see what happens.
BTW I do know a little of how you must be feeling. OHs best mate (a woman) used to do jelly-fish sting jibes ALL THE TIME, it drove me crazy. Noone else noticed though not even OH which was enfuriating. Then after 10 years I finally flipped and wrote it all down in an email, and then we met and she said she'd not meant any of it personally and that she would try not to say anything in future to upset me. Then for 2 years our families got together as normal and jibeless, but very strained and sadly now we never see the couple, which is really sad for my husband, and I feel really dreadful about it now. I can never really be sure it wasn't down to a misunderstanding/ personality clash and me misinterpreting her jibes as personal instead of her sardonic humour which I just did not appreciate. -
Message 34
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Friday, 6th January 2012
Hi Doblinski,
Thanks for the tips, and sorry things didn't work out with your OH's friend. I wouldn't feel guilty about it though, it isn't too much asked of anyone not to insult and tease you all the time (I can see that clearly when it concerns other people, although, like you, I took ten years to decide I didn't have to put up with it myself!)
What worries me most about my plans with f-i-l is being able to keep calm. Every time I've dealt with one comment in my mind and - much later - thought of the reply I *should* have made (except with the turkey/salmon dig), he comes up with something new and so gobsmackingly nasty I can't respond at all. There has also been an incident since my last post that, though it wasn't a personal attack (would've been a record, in a 30-minute visit), felt like a glimpse of something genuinely menacing. Or am I getting paranoid? Tell me what you think:
My in-laws dropped by for a cup of coffee on their way home from visiting an elderly relative. This elderly relative has a son who is married to a woman everyone apparently dislikes (I've never met her, but in the light of what I've been writing on this board, have started to wonder where this dislike originally came from). The son is now terminally ill, and my f-i-l told us over coffee that he'd just advised elderly relative to cut her son's wife out of her will, in case the son died before elderly relative, and the wife got his share of the inheritance. I thought this was vile, and said that people should let go of their grudges at that stage in life, and not try to make other people miserable even beyond the grave. 'Imagine, then,' he said, 'that [my brother in law] had died while married to [his first wife], and that we had died after that – [the first wife] would have inherited everything.' Then added, leaning back in the way he does after proving his superiority, 'Just think about that!' I did think about it, rather too much, and came to the conclusion that this man must have a completely poisoned mind. My b-i-l's first wife never did anything worse than somehow incurring his dislike (except getting divorced from b-i-l, but that would not have happened in this hypothetical case), and he not only talks about disinheriting her when she would have been (again, hypothetically, of course) widowed with two small children (his grandchildren!) to look after, but also assumes that we should all agree that her inheriting would have been unacceptable. I find this very disturbing, as it shows that what I took for irritation is actually deep hatred, and a complete lack of empathy. Also, I'm pretty sure now that if things go wrong, the damage will be irreparable (and I'll get cut out of his will, though that's not what I'm worried about!)
Savannahlady (in case you read this), you suggested somewhere in this thread that f-i-l's behaviour may disguise some kind of mental health problem. Were you thinking of depression? -
Message 35
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 6th January 2012
I must admit to always going a bit cross-eyed at inheritance tales, finding them difficult to follow, but I would have thought that grandchildren should definitely at least be considered when 'cutting off' (doesn't it sound sO Victorian?) in-laws.
>>>The son is now terminally ill, and my f-i-l told us over coffee that he'd just advised elderly relative to cut her son's wife out of her will, in case the son died before elderly relative, and the wife got his share of the inheritance.<<<
but why would the wife be in the will anyway? I can understand she might inherit via the son, but if he dies first (which sounds likely) then surely the elderly relative's stuff just goes to other members of her direct family when the time comes? I'm sure if my clogs-in-laws had left anything inheritable and Mr Clogs had died before they did, that his brothers and sisters would have been a bit miffed if I'd got his share. (Unless we'd had children which I would see as different - don't know if there are offspring in the case above?) -
Message 36
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Friday, 6th January 2012
To be honest, Campbell: I don't know what the law is, either, because I've never thought about it; there would have been children involved in both cases, so perhaps that means that the money goes to the family if the OH dies.
What shocked me about this story was that my f-i-l seems to think that being unpleasant (in his opinion) is sufficient grounds for disinheriting someone (whatever their rights may have been) - and that he seemed so pleased about it. -
Message 37
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 6th January 2012
To be fair, I don't think there are any 'rights' in inheritance cases. Surely it's up to the individual what he or she does with their money? And 'being unpleasant' sounds to me like a good enough reason to not leave someone anything.
That your clogs-in-law is yet again sticking his nasty nose into something that's none of his business is another story but in this case I wouldn't necessarily say that he's 'wrong' in what he says. -
Message 38
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 6th January 2012
I don't think there are any 'rights' in inheritance cases. Â
Depends partly on the country. In England and Wales, you can put whoever you like in your will, though if you did cut all your close relatives out in favour of the local dogs' home, you may be able to contest, particularly if you've been living in the same house or something and will become homeless (but there are no guarantees, as there are many other factors to consider.)
If you die intestate, there are fairly strict rules about who will inherit - spouse, children, parents, siblings and so on (including their descendants, if they have died.)
In Germany, I think you can't just cut people out, at least not your children. I don't know the details, and I don't know if it would apply to your child's surviving spouse (whether or not they have children.)
So, there may well be some rights in inheritance (legally if not morally), but whether or not they would apply for a particular relationship in a particular country, you'd need to check.
I think my parents dying with little more than the funeral costs to their names (and all the years of papers) may have done us a favour in some ways - and I can also see the reasoning in there being fairly strict guidelines on who should be included when there is something to leave. -
Message 39
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Friday, 6th January 2012
>That your clogs-in-law is yet again sticking his nasty nose into something that's none of his business is another story but in this case I wouldn't necessarily say that he's 'wrong' in what he says.
Okay... I've chalked up one vote for 'paranoid' ;-D
Bearhug, perhaps you're right that inheriting little to nothing can sometimes be a blessing in disguise - money that people feel they have a right to without doing anything for it does seem to bring out the worst in them! My father was already dead when my Grandmother (living in England) died, and my father's share went to my mother. No-one seemed to find this strange or wrong, and no-one expected anyone to be singled out or 'cut off'. I think with certain people it's a question of power as much as anything else, which brings us back to the 'fear of losing control' that someone mentioned. -
Message 40
Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Friday, 6th January 2012
What a weapon he wants to wield over people! Even after death.
-
Message 41
Posted by Flightless Anachronistic Bird (U6437464) on Friday, 6th January 2012
In Germany, I think you can't just cut people out, at least not your children. I don't know the details, and I don't know if it would apply to your child's surviving spouse (whether or not they have children.)Â
The same is true, to some extent, in the Netherlands. I also don't know the details, but there are quite detailed rules. -
Message 42
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Friday, 6th January 2012
I am as sure as I can be (having seen both wills) that if my OH were to predecease both me and MiL, then her worldly goods would pass to the grandchildren (not to me). And if I die before OH, he won't get anything from my Aged P's will, either.
I've never considered it odd. The grandchildren will probably need the money much more than we do when/if it happens that way.
It's funny how many people think that they are 'entitled' to inherit - suspect that the Family Courts are full of them. I came into the world with nowt, I don't expect to get anything without working for it. -
Message 43
Posted by Dragonfly (U2223700) on Friday, 6th January 2012
My father was already dead when my Grandmother (living in England) died, and my father's share went to my mother.Â
I have nothing constructive to add except sympathy for a very difficult situation, but I do find the above slightly odd. Many people in those circumstances would be concerned about the son- or daughter-in-law re-marrying and leaving the legacy to the new spouse and away from the grandchildren. Did your mother inherit your father's share in trust for you and your siblings, or outright? If the latter, I surmise that either she was very fond of your mother and thought of her as a daughter, or she was very confident that your mother would in due course leave what was left of your grandmother's legacy to you and your siblings.
n English law, depending on how a will is worded, if X leaves her estate to be divided between her three children, A, B & C, and A dies before X, A's children would inherit A's share between them. I have no idea if Dutch law is similar. -
Message 44
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Friday, 6th January 2012
Thanks for that, Draggers. I was beginning to think we were the odd ones out. I don't remember noting that the wills were out of the ordinary, and, indeed, I am named as an Executrix in both of them, although I won't be a beneficiary of MiL's.
-
Message 45
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Friday, 6th January 2012
Thanks for the sympathy, Dragonfly. I was going to answer your questions but I hope you understand if I don't; discussing the OP topic in 'public' makes me nervous enough, even under a pseudonym, and I'm a bit wary of adding more and more personal information. Also, I never meant the question of whether or not my f-i-l's elderly relative's son's wife (phew!) should inherit anything to become so important to this discussion, but was simply writing about the fact that f-i-l is picking on yet another (and again much younger!) female relative, and this time in an unmistakably hostile way and with real consequences.
PS Yes, I think my grandmother was very fond of my mother. -
Message 46
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 6th January 2012
Savannahlady (in case you read this), you suggested somewhere in this thread that f-i-l's behaviour may disguise some kind of mental health problem. Were you thinking of depression?Â
No not depression - I suppose I was being (as I often am I'm afraid) a bit 'literary'. But he sounds so much like my DD's FiL whose history I know well, that I think he is probably one of those people who became bitter early in life and has never ever learned to let go of it; who feels that because he had a rough time, he's going to make damn sure everyone else does too.
I don't think that depression generally acts that way, though I am no expert - it comes and goes whereas his bitter approach and need to hurt and upset people seems to have been with him ad nauseum and ad infinitum. One of those people who are heard often to say things like "I was beaten every week on Friday and Sunday evenings and it didn't do me any harm" and you want to say " No, that's not true, it has done you enormous harm and you are now harming other people because of it". The sins of the fathers .......
I do hope you have been helped by the ramblings of people like me and the more careful advice of all the others on here - at least to the point that you will not ignore anything he says in future, but will in some way push back to him; and most importantly, that you will stop everything dead in its tracks if it spills over to your children.
All the very best to you,
Savvie -
Message 47
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Saturday, 7th January 2012
What a kind and insightful post, Savannahlady. What you said about his being damaged and bitter made me think that this is probably one of the difficulties of the situation: there is an oddly vulnerable side to him that affects people's judgement, and has made me fluctuate between anger and pity very often in the past. Both his sons are protective of him, and even my husband, who is on my side in this matter and has a far stronger and more balanced personality than f-i-l, finds it very hard - or perhaps even impossible, as it might turn out - to stand up to him.
>I do hope you have been helped by the ramblings of people like me and the more careful advice of all the others on here
Yes, it's all been a tremendous help. Even when posters didn't agree with me, I've been able to get a much clearer and saner view of the situation. Fingers crossed for the outcome... -
Message 48
Posted by Dragonfly (U2223700) on Saturday, 7th January 2012
Hi Mustardme, glad to hear that posting here has helped. Sorry for phrasing my response above in the form of questions - of course you should feel no obligation to answer! I was just wondering aloud but it was tactless.
I must say, your father-in-law sounds an absolute nightmare and speaking as a layperson I'd be wondering about personality disorder. He doesn't sound as if he has much empathy, to put it mildly. Best of luck dealing with this tricky situation. At his age, I wouldn't be confident of effecting any change in his behaviour, I'd be looking for ways of coping with it and damage limitation. -
Message 49
Posted by Finally (U2221028) on Saturday, 7th January 2012
dear Mustardme, I have been following the thread from the start, and feel very deeply for you. My very best wishes that you find a way through for yourself and those you love.
A couple of times, I have got as far as writing out what happend in our family, but have hesitated to post. It did make an amazing difference so I’m thinking OK, what's the worst that could happen? So, how would it be, if you treated your FiL's poisonous comments as the most amusing things you had ever heard, laughing uproariously at each, even repeating them to each other through your laughter 'and then he said she should be burned' or whatever?
In an ideal situation, this would be done with a light touch, to turn a tyrant into well, something without power to hurt, only to amuse. How can someone complain that you find him so amusing? In context, you can encourage them: it gives the person a role right in the centre of the family, so they can to an extent still dominate. Just strips 'em of any power to hurt you. In our situation, we only noticed afterwards that the hurtful comments had been a bid for attention, to dominate, from someone who had no idea how to get people's attention in any other way. They are now like a toothless tiger, he still roars but we don't get hurt. Amazingly, we even feel some affection. Ama
It’s not exactly easy, I’m certainly not sure I could do it, actually, once I had got cross with the person. IT was done by soemone who joined our family, with no baggage. He laughed, spontaneously, we all joined in and off it went. No idea how it would work in your situation. It is one way forward, though, within a family. All the best, F xx -
Message 50
Posted by themustardme (U15071360) on Saturday, 7th January 2012
Hi Finally, thanks for the best wishes, I'm very glad you've plucked up the courage to write about your family (I know all about how much it takes...); and what a wonderfully positive solution you've found!
Sadly, I doubt that it is going to work in our case. As you say, it would take a light touch, and I think by this time I'm on the other end of the spectrum entirely, where everything f-i-l says hits me like a ton of bricks - I'm not even sure I'll be able to meet his comments in the calm manner I'd envisaged, and I'm certain I won't manage to laugh (unless a bare-toothed harpy screech could somehow be counted as a laugh).
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