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Not sure what to do next...
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 13th January 2012
My problem is this...
Due to failing health, I've had to look for help cleaning our house. My best friend's future d-i-l offered, as she's saving for the wedding. Her b/f is like another son to me, and is really close friends with The Viking my OH.
Now...she doesn't get on well with my friend, and spends a lot of time dissing her, gossiping about her and yesterday spent 5 hours at my house, which included 1.5 hours of "cleaning". Despite hints that I needed to rest, she stayed on. I've just noticed that she missed hoovering one bedroom, the living room still has bits of carpet unhoovered and the hallway hasn't been touched. The bathroom has had a cursory wipe over and she missed cleaning bits of the kitchen floor.
I feel miffed and a bit used to be frank. I could have got someone else to do the work, but I thought we got on pretty well and it would help them out a tiny bit and be an enormous help to us.
Certain friends have expressed doubts about this girl, catching her out in blatant lies and story telling, and yet have said nothing to my friend. Yesterday, she lied again. A big lie that involved a lot of people as witnesses to the event that never was. Again it was designed to put my friend in a bad ligh.t have had my problems with my friend recently, I have had to realise that she won't change and that I have to put up with it in honour of our 40 years of friendship and the fact that her husband who died 3 years ago, was my closest friend in the world.
It's a toughie. I don't want to deprive her of the work, but if she's going to spend more time exhausting me physically, and my patience, then I might as well risk upsetting her, my friend, and her son but telling her I don't need her services.
The Viking says I must tell her I'm not happy, to make it clear you aren't getting involved in gossip (I am guilty sometimes) and that you don't want to fall out with your friend. Risk losing her friendshiip and that of her b/f and put your friend first. Incidentally, he would hate to lose his friendship but feels there is something very odd about her and that something is going to happen very soon to open a few eyes.
It's rambling I know, but I feel really upset about it today. Especially as I've got to now go round the house and do it all again! -
Message 2
Posted by orange pekoe (U9563764) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Lilo, my friend needs a cleaner due to ill-health. Until her benefits got sorted out so she could afford to pay someone, folk rallied round as they do, including me, but I know she is *so* much happier now that she pays someone from an agency to do it.
(a) her friends can be her friends again (we always were of course, but she was beginning to feel 'obliged' to us, however much we didn't mind)
(b) the cleaning is absolutely spot-on
(c) there are clear hours that the cleaner works, so if my friend is having a crappy day, she at least knows that she will have some time to crash at 12pm, or whatever.
The additional complicating factor in your scenario is that you are paying this person (quite rightly, in the circs, ours as described above was always a temporary solution) - so I can see how letting her go is going to need some diplomacy skills. But, as you can probably tell, I am totally with the Viking on this. It needs sorting, and pretty quickly, ideally. Unless you think you could get her to stick to clear times, and actually do the job properly. Which still leaves the Gossip Factor, which to me feels like it could get very sticky.
You are paying for a service that you need, which you have a right to expect to be done properly, and without endless 'social' hours which will wear you out. -
Message 3
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Lilo, can you give the girl one more chance. Write out a list of work required and a timetable for it to be done - properly. Leave her to work and head off any nasty gossip by taking a rest whilst she is there.
I know - much easier said than done. It might be better for your health to tell her you are making other arrangements.
The other part of the problem is something your friend's son may have to face: that the girl he loves is a liar and disloyal towards her future mil..
You and the Viking may lose friends you care about but your health and your well being must come first. Sadly, even long friendships can come to end -
Message 4
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Well well pekoe. I've just finished talking this through with another close friend, and she said almost the identical things.Sort it out and soon Lilo, or it will only get worse.
She also thought it unreasonable that this girl wears me out using me as a sounding board, and actually trying to turn me against my friend, and that she should treat our arrangement in a more business like manner and not expect it to be a social day out. As she said, you might as well carry on struggling to do the cleaning yourself and not have all this worry on top!
Told me in no uncertain terms that despite all my bluster, I'm a soppy fool, a proper soft touch and I should get a blummin grip and sort it out!
I realise you don't know that about me, but now you do, I can hear you saying...told you so!
Thank you so much for your reply. It made perfect sense and I will do something about it and soon. -
Message 5
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Wow! Another really well thought out reply SJ and so accurate in what The Viking told me, and my other friend who mentioned writing out a specific list. It seems to be so obvious to other people what I should do, and yet to me I feel angry, used and really worried about it.
Pekeo and yourself have given me a lot to think about, thank you so much. -
Message 6
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 13th January 2012
It seems to be so obvious to other people what I should do, and yet to me I feel angry, used and really worried about it.Ìý
I can see why you are worried, Lilo, and angry too. A kindly solution which could have helped you and the girl just isn't working. Perhaps she has never been taught how to clean properly but at this time, you can't be teaching her, you need experienced help.
Two friends who, like yourself, find they need extra help due to ill health use a cleaning firm. Work well done at a time to suit & it is ideal. -
Message 7
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Jenny
I've just been all over the house "inspecting" and I feel even more angry. The bathroom for example, has hardly been touched. It's as if she thought I wouldn't notice, or would be too soft to say anything. It figures, along with the lies she's been telling me (there are many) that I wouldn't find out! Ours is a close community, a lot of good friends, who ok know all about each other, but it's specifically not the place to be telling porkies.
I digress. I think it would be easier for everyone if I employ an agency. Keep it on a business like level with fixed times. I can't worry if this girl is upset with me (I'm convinced she will be, because eventually she turns against everyone from what I've observed, and possibly I'll become her target, but I can't worry about that) because this is achieving nothing.
As another friend said, I only had to look at her flat to see what housework means to her. I was a fool. -
Message 8
Posted by borchesterbouncer (U14738918) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Sounds like she'll have to go Lilo and as soon as possible. The agency route may be costlier but you can ring them up and moan if the work isn't being done properly which is so difficult when you are doing it face to face, especially if you know them personally.
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Message 9
Posted by Dirigibles was here (U7278225) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Lilo, I'm so sorry that you've got such an awkward situation to tackle.
I think you need to stop this arrangement right now, before it becomes even more difficult to do so.
At this early stage you can reasonably say that you aren't at all pleased with the standard of her work, and would rather have a thorough job done by a professional cleaner. You'd been really looking forward to seeing the house look better than ever, and you're disappointed with her lack of effort. Cleaning is not easy work, and it isn't something anyone can pick up in a desultory way and expect to get paid for.
Let it drift on, second chance and all that, and it will be annoying you more and more, getting you down, and even if the cleaning improves, the conversation probably won't.
Although I can understand you wincing a bit because her boyfriend and your friend might feel slightly embarrassed, I'm sure that they both know and love you well enough to recognise the truth. -
Message 10
Posted by Celtic Tiger (U2229153) on Friday, 13th January 2012
I wouldn't bother with trying the list idea. The girl has already taken advantage of you - how would you be able to trust her in future? In your shoes, I'd phone her up and say that it had seemed like a good idea at the time when you asked her if she wanted to do this job for you but you realise it's not going to work out (Don't be drawn into any discussion of why this is) and you have decided to use a professional cleaner.
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Message 11
Posted by Finally (U2221028) on Friday, 13th January 2012
How would it be, to avoid the whole performance issue & take all the blame on yourself.... something like thanking her very much, but that you have made a mistake. You feel bad having a friend wait on you hand and foot when you don't have the energy to socialise with her. You have decided to ask an agency to do your cleaning, with immediate effect.
That's how I would play it....hope you find the right way for yourself. F xx -
Message 12
Posted by Finally (U2221028) on Friday, 13th January 2012
but you realise it's not going to work out Ìý
Ah, yes, if I had thought of this in time, would probably take this way out. F xx
p.s. so that's the flea.... -
Message 13
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Back again to say thank you for even more views. All appreciated.
Situation is now that my friend is coming round tomorrow and I'm going to tell her that the arrangement isn't working out. As far as I know she doesn't know about it, as I've only had the girl coming in for a few weeks. She had the pair of them living with her for a while and often told me how untidy they were, so she's well aware. She's very fond of this girl and loves seeing her son so happy. I can't crush her dreams can I? I'll stick to the cleaning subject unless anything else is said by her.
What is so difficult is the knowledge that this girl is being so poisonous about her behind her back, and all smiles to her face. I've tried hard to defend her in the past, as my friend can be extremely difficult, but suspicions have been voiced by many others that this girl is out for material gains. Her b/f is an only child and is set to inherit around 3/4 million and my friend is not in good health.
This is all getting harder and harder for us to continue to ignore, and what I dread is friend's son, and friend getting terribly hurt. He has been having a few uneasy thoughts recently, and confided as much in The Viking who is a brilliant listener.
I don't like feeling like this about someone who is always so nice to my face, and yet I now feel uneasy because she could be lying about me to my friends.
I've made the decision to get an agency involved. I know it will possibly cost more, but I'll get a better job and have peace of mind. Let's hope it doesn't all blow up, and I lose two other people I care about in the process. Yes Dirigibles, they do love me I know that, but if I upset the one they both love...
It feels good to talk about it on here, and thank you all again for your input. -
Message 14
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 13th January 2012
Oh and yes you nosey lot < smile > I'll be back to tell you what happens!
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Message 15
Posted by Jane (U1484860) on Friday, 13th January 2012
I've made the decision to get an agency involved. I know it will possibly cost more, but I'll get a better job and have peace of mind. Ìý
I've come late to the thread so won't repeat others comments however what I will add is that by using an agency you can be sure that
- the cleaners are insured and shold and damage occur you will be recompensed
- the cleaners are paying tax and national insurance contributions as appropriate for their wage levels
- that if your usual cleaner can't come (ill/on holiday etc) someone else will replace them
all of which will give you peace of mind and make your life easier.
I'm not sure what your position would be if you pay someone cash for a job which they don't declare as income paying tax/NICs if necessary.
I'm glad your mind is made up on this matter and hope that you don't get too much grief implementing your descision.
best wishes
Jane -
Message 16
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 13th January 2012
I've made the decision to get an agency involved. Ìý
Good decision, Lilo.
Let's hope it doesn't all blow up, and I lose two other people I care about in the process. Yes Dirigibles, they do love me I know that, but if I upset the one they both love...Ìý A risk that must be taken; you can't pay for poor work just to keep the peace. Gossip is best avoided but I am aware that is difficult in a close knit community. It is not an easy situation for you and the Viking. -
Message 17
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Friday, 13th January 2012
I'd say, having been a cleaner, if you go for an agency or anything else, it's easiest to start with a list of what you expect to be done every visit, e.g. bathroom, kitchen, vacuuming - and how you'll communicate extra jobs, e.g. you'll always leave a note by the telephone if there's anything extra, which will be something like, "please could you make sure the mirror in the hallway is done today."
I worked as a cleaner for some of my mum's friends, and it was much easier to do for the ones who were clear about what they expected, and who would tell me when things weren't done the way they wanted it. So if you're not happy with something, it's actually easier on both sides to bring it up. (Having said that, there's not too much risk of gossip from me, and certainly no lies, so I guess they knew they could tell me if they weren't entirely happy.) -
Message 18
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 13th January 2012
I think you have had good advice here Lilo so I won't repeat it all. I will say though that all the people who have helped me in the house over the years, some of whom lived with us in their own quarters when we were abroad, became good friends after a time. But I think that is OK, if you begin with a business relationship with a stranger and get clear understandings on what you expect to be done over what timeframe and to what standard. If they don't quite get the standard first, then explain firmly and politely and work with them until it is all as you want it to be. Never, ever, put up with things you don't like. It will fester and you will both end up very unhappy.
I have only had to get rid of one person in nearly 40 years - all the rest have worked out well. My current lass has been with us now for ten years and is universally liked by all our friends. She helps out sometimes if we have large parties and is pleasant and friendly with everyone but never 'oversteps the mark' - and I do not mean that in a snobby way. We always invite her to eat and drink with us if it is a buffet but she chooses not to, in spite of being encouraged by us and our friends. We share each others' griefs and happiness and we do everything we can to help her if she needs assistance. But, at the end of the day, she has a job to do and she knows that and gets on with it. By the same token we treat her fairly, pay her for holidays, force her to go home when she is clearly ill - she has never failed to turn up, though we have sent her home on the very few occasions whenshe has been ill. And we always give her pay increases before she has to ask for them. We have taken up cases with the local authorities on her behalf and ensured that when she needs things fixing, she gets help from one of the people we use for cars, plumbing, etc who will treat her fairly.
The point is that you can get to /becoming/ friends, but only after you have established all the ground rules for work first and you are totally satisfied they are being met.
There are also issues of confidentiality when people work in your home and that is something else you need to be confident about. Gossip about any mutual friends or acquaintance is a total no-no and our lass, bless her, never talks about the other friends for whom she has come to work since she started with us - that's perfect as I don't want to hear it and I want to know that she will never discuss us either.
Anyway, I am rabbiting on Lilo, sorry. I am sorry to hear about the decline in your health too - I know that you do your absolute best to keep busy and active and I take my hat off to you for that. I wish you lots of luck with your new arrangement and in dealing with this with your friends. Here's hoping the old health picks up a bit too!
Love
Savvie -
Message 19
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 14th January 2012
Thank you Bearhug and Savvie for your replies.
I've seen my friend and told her the situation re her d-i-l and she urged me to tell her that the situation is making me uncomfortable and that I've decided to see help from strangers instead. I told friend how it wasn't done properly, and although she was loyal, she agreed cleaning isn't her thing!
I now have the number of an agency who do the same hours, for the same amount, with TWO people working, and apparently leave your house sparkling, according to another contact of mine. Just what I need, so I'm contacting them on Monday.
Thank you for the encouraging words Savvie. I forget that I yak on about my life on these boards and that some people remember things. It has been an enormous loss of independence to have to ask for help, along with other things conking out in the last year, so to add all this stress as well, was patently ridulous.
If this girl get "the ump" with me then so be it, but at least I've laid the groundwork with my friend, and at least I'll be free of the unwanted gossip.
It all seems so silly today. Thank you all for your patience.
Lilo -
Message 20
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 14th January 2012
Lilo, I've come late to this thread, am sorry that you're having health problems, absolutely agree with the advice you've been given and the action you've taken, hope it works out with the agency, and know what a boost to the spirits it is when your house is sparkling clean and tidy.
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Message 21
Posted by Dirigibles was here (U7278225) on Saturday, 14th January 2012
Lilo, it's not at all silly, and I'm glad that you've got things underway.
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Message 22
Posted by Alsdouble (U524298) on Sunday, 15th January 2012
poor old Lilo.
Failing health eh.. Mmm, know the feeling. When things stop working like they've always worked.
It's a major bummer innit.
I've just applied for a blue badge for the second time, and been refused, as expected.
Like blue badge holders are all crawling by the fingernails from the precious safe little spots? (Not!)
I look at others in their 60s with wenvy. smoking and apparently fit. I just can't keep up with them. Mind you some don't make it to 60. Some don't make it to 20.
Life destroys you dunnit.
I did a shake and vac job on the carpets 2 days ago. Applied the stuff and then brushed it in.
Breathless? Jesus..Like near death even.
I'm not moaning.......................oh well, yes, I am moaning, but moaning doesn't help so..soddit.
Keep fighting Lilo....FIGHTING! -
Message 23
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Changing the subject from the cleaning, but I will come back to it because there have been developments (uh ohhh...) yes indeed als luvvie, it is a bummer. A group of friends my age were gathered yesterday and all agreed it's so cruel that inside your head you're a crazy old hippy and not a care in the world, and on the outside we're grey haired (disguised) grandparents creaking and groaning and worrying about bluddy pensions! All the kind of stuff we used to sneer at our parents about.
Ah well, yes I keep fighting als, I really do, but I've always been such an independent wee tyke and having to admit I can't clean my own house (The Viking works really long hours and bless him, does a lot of fabulous cooking, so I shan't ask him) came as a major blow last year. Anyway, I'm holding out on the blue badge because when I'm feeling awful and can't walk, I hardly want to mooch round Sainsburys anyway. As in I don't want anyone else to take me either. Duvet Days.
So the cleaner. Hm well, I told her, the cowardly way, by text. She seemed worried that she wasn't doing a good job, but it ended up joking and accepting I was going with an agency.
However...this morning...two more texts arrived, and I feel very edgy. Hard to explain, but it involved stuff about my friend, kind of fake concern, how she hoped I hadn't told her I'd "fired" her. Sounds a bit more formal than what actually happened. That she feels embarassed at being fired, and not doing a good job. Could I find out what's wrong with my friend as she's worried about her. (patently not true from the nasty things she says to me)
So I've decided to say and do nothing for now. I don't want this to upset my friendship with my old friend, now things have progressed and become a bit warmer between us.
This girl is being talked about between our friends as a trouble-maker, a girl who obviously has problems, but is on the surface a really nice person. A lot of people are feeling edgy.
Good grief, I never thought a bit of dusting could lead to such times! -
Message 24
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Monday, 16th January 2012
The only person I've ever had to sack was a registered childminder, 20 years ago - she was fine with a baby, but as my son grew into a toddler, it became apparent that we had differences of opinion about some things what would only get more difficult - I took the get-out that my new childminder was a personal friend who'd suddenly became available, but she still cried, however gentle and tactful I was.
It needed to be done, though.
Re the blue badge - I had one for 5 years (had to appeal for the final year - go for it, Al) and it can make life so much easier.
In the last couple of years, if I was having a good day, I didn't use the disabled bays, but left them for others who needed them more, but it gives you the possibility of more freedom.
Yes, I think that you're right, the best action at the moment is to say nothing, and if your friend actually asks you about what went on, you can decide then how much of the truth to tell her. -
Message 25
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Good grief, I never thought a bit of dusting could lead to such times!
Ìý
Don't let it upset you, Lilo. Another latecomer to the thread but you've done exactly the right thing re the agency. I would try and avoid/block any discussion about it between your other friends, just stick to a blanket line about needing the security of a regular service from the agency, or somesuch. If the rest of them want to gossip, then fine.
Sorry to hear about the health problems - you are such a lively presence in ML! KOKO m'dear. And you, Als. When I think of a couple of people I know who *do* have blue badges......... -
Message 26
Posted by Ginslinger Redux (U14830013) on Monday, 16th January 2012
I' think you are right to leave it to settle for a bit. Old friends are exasperating but they have been summered and wintered and probably find us exasperating too (I try to tell myself this re the one who is currently driving me nuts).
As for the Blue badge.. get one while you can, You don't have to use it on a good day but on a bad one it might make all the difference. -
Message 27
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Lilo, I have to say from reading the last few posts that this young woman doesn't sound like great news. One would hope for more discretion and some proper cleaning at least.
I was prompted to respond because a couple of years ago we found ourselves in a similar position. We employed a friend of a friend to do regular gardening work at quite a hefty hourly fee paid in cash. I made the mistake of offering tea and biscuits and to cut a long story short, he ended up in the house talking to me and drinking tea for more hours than he spent in the garden - and he billed us for the talking time. Even when he was out in the garden he grew less and less busy and efficient.
I resorted to going out on the days when he was due so that at least he didn't waste my time. We eventually caught him out billing for half a day's work when we knew he hadn't been round and we terminated the agreement then and there. It wasn't a pleasant experience and I would think twice and three times before employing a friend or even a friend of a friend again.
In your shoes I might sit the young woman down (possibly with the Viking present), say that this situation isn't developing as you had anticipated and set down the ground rules. You just want her to come in and clean for a set number of hours: you don't have the energy to cope with all the talking. Say that you envisaged this as being a simple cleaning job and want her to treat it that way. If she agrees and then breaks the rules, then you have some grounds to say 'this isn't working' and terminate the agreement. Whether you'll be able to get out of without recriminations.... Good luck. -
Message 28
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Whoops, sorry. Committed the cardinal sin of reading the first dozen posts and not the last few... Ignore, ignore.
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Message 29
Posted by Ginslinger Redux (U14830013) on Monday, 16th January 2012
It is still sound advice for similar situations.
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Message 30
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Savvie, just wanted to say what a fantastic employer you sound. No wonder your current 'lass' has been with you for ten years. You sound like a dream employer.
I think the mistake I made with the gardening guy is not being firm and clear enough at the outset and I won't make the same mistake again. It's easier for both parties if the ground rules are laid down firmly at the start. That's what I struggle with - starting off firmly. Some people take tea and biscuits as the sign of a soft touch and proceed to take liberties. I'm learning to be firm! -
Message 31
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Well that's kind of you to say Morganish but I really do believe that, as with most things in life, it cuts both ways. We started out on a very business like footing and indeed, we still operate like that when it comes to me asking her to do extra things. The difference is that now we understand each other totally - she knows that I won't work her to death and I know that she won't rip me off if I am not around (which is quite often).
Also she has been very kind and caring of me when I have had my various health problems over the years, especially in the early days of my heart failure when we couldn't get the drugs right and then discovered other problems. Now I am balanced on meds and as active as I can be, she is still concerned to see that I don't overdo things. She is in fact 3 years younger than my own daughter and treats me, in the nicest way, as if we had a similar relationship. I would not be without her and I am very, very fond of her.
I used to tell new staff in my working days that they would have 100% trust and respect from me until they proved me wrong. Mostly that worked and if they were people who hadn't been given that before then it worked 150% better than I ever expected. You know all this anyway I'm sure but I do think it is the way we should be with everyone we work with. It's crucial to have clear understandings about what's expected and to tell people, politely and clearly, when it isn't working.
If you think about it, you can apply the same treatment to friendship and indeed to marriage!!! Hmmmm......
Enough of my rabbiting - I am supposed to be finding a creative residential course to give to my sister for her 60th!
Love
Savvie -
Message 32
Posted by Ellie May (U2222618) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Have you looked at West Dean, Savvie? I was there last week, it's wonderful.
-
Message 33
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Monday, 16th January 2012
Oh - that looks great Ellie - thanks so much.
Hope you are keeping well - I've not seen you in ages!
Love and thanks
Savvie
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