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Compulsive lying
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 20th January 2012
This problem relates to a young woman who was involved in threads I started in here last week. I would welcome your views and advice.
She is engaged to the son of one of my oldest and closest friends. She is late 20's attractive, a bubbly and kind character who has become a good friend despite our age differences. She says I am not a mother figure as she has enough problems with her own. Thank goodness. I have three children of my own and don't really want to be "motherly".
Since she came into our lives it has been noticed by a lot of people that some of the stories she tells about her past life in another country for example, just aren't figuring out. She claims to have paid off vast amounts of money from a very modest salary, that she had spoof letters demanding 20K and thought about ending her engagement because of the shame.
Lots and lots of other things are now arising. She claims not to like her m-i-l to be, my friend, and yet is all over her and takes everything she generously offers. She told me a blatant lie about NYEve knowing perfectly well that I would find out. She used my daughter for professional advice and that was when the alarm bells rang, because my d said there was no way this action could have been taken by such a big company. Taking money from her bank account without her permission? It's patently obvious that she has poor self esteem, thinks everyone hates her, turns against everyone eventually, and now it seems to be my turn.
I had to terminate our casual agreement for her to clean for me, as she was taking over a whole day, and not doing a good job, whilst I was paying her top rates. I got fed up and tactfully ended it. Now she is telling my friend that she spent all day Sunday in tears and that I'm not telling her the real reason. This bit is true because I've tried to spare her feelings, but if she pushes me too far and carries on trying to wreck my friendship then I shall tell her the truth.
My friend defended me, and told her it was silly to be so upset and that I treated it casually, but felt a bit uncomfortable at the dynamics of our friendship being changed by her working for me cleaning my house. This is true. Thank goodness friend seems to be seeing through some of the dramas but because her son seems so happy, is staying out of most of it.
I've just been reading about compulsive liars and she certainly seems to be a classic example. Our circle of friends are all feeling very edgy now, are worried about my friend, about her son, and think the lies are escalating so that sooner rather than later something is coming to a head.
I feel very stupid that I defended her for so long. I feel as if despite our friendship, she is now going to turn against me. I'm not worried about that, so much as the affect it would have with my friend and her son who I've known since he was born. It's like a circle with ripples.
One other close friend says stay silent. Don't reply to all her texts, don't see her if you don't have to, and just wait. I'm going to do just that.
The advice in the articles isn't very heartening. There doesn't seem to be a lot anyone can do until the person faces up to their problem and the reasons behind it. -
Message 2
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Incidentally, I didn't mean she spent all day cleaning. She just sat and sat for up to five hours at a time, and gossiped about other people, mainly my friend. It exhausted me and despite my dropping hints, still stayed!
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Message 3
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Hello Lilo, sadly I don't think there is much you can do.
Yes you can see it all happening before your very eyes, but I don't think you are in a position to control any of it.
I wish I could fill several paragraphs with advice about cognitive remapping and gently taking her to one side and whispering wise words into her shell likes, but MY experience of people like that leads me to conclude that you are not going to alter one single aspect of her behaviour.
Sorry inflatable one.
Chin up and direct you eyes to better and brighter horizons. -
Message 4
Posted by gigglemahanaz2 (U14257954) on Friday, 20th January 2012
I agree with Sweetfeet in that this young woman isn't going to change so stay silent and say nothing.
You and your wider circle of friends, including this woman's future MIL, can see through her and have picked up on what doesn't tally.
I think most of us have run across people like that over the years and they hang themselves in the end!
I worked with someone like that (she still works for the same place) and it's got to the point now (I'm still in contact with a friend who works there) that no one will talk to her now if it's not to do with work.
You can hold your head high as you know you've done nothing wrong and she's the lier not you and your friends know it too. -
Message 5
Posted by gigglemahanaz2 (U14257954) on Friday, 20th January 2012
A thought or two for you Lilo...........you can watch a thief but you can't watch a liar and the second is if your going to lie make sure you have a bloody good memory!
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Message 6
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Agree totally with gigglemahanaz, especially that it's not your responsibility!
I've had friends/clients who have been compulsive liars, and have formulated a loose policy which, if nothing else, protects me.
Basically, I leave them to get on with it, unless I know, and they know I know, that they're lying, or unless I know it;'s a lie which affects me or someome I'm fond of. -
Message 7
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Yup - don't get involved. Stand back, be polite, be really, really grown-up by not engaging in gossip, bite your tongue when she tries to manipulate you, respond to texts and emails in a polite, friendly but unforthcoming manner. You can appreciate the positive things about her, and feel a degree of compassion for the fact that she's resorting to this behaviour, while also being aware that within the social set-up you describe she is a bomb who needs careful handling.
I had the experience a few years ago of finding that I had been working alongside a very accomplished liar who had created a number of alternative identities and had been silently and secretly sabotaging work projects in a surgical, hateful kind of way. I found her type of lying really chilling. The young woman you describe strikes me more as a very unhappy person who tells lies to try keep difficult truths at bay and maintain an image of herself. It's not easy to be around but it's her game and it sounds as if a number of people have rumbled her and don't take anything she says very seriously - which I guess touches on what Carrick said. Sit back, watch the show, let her get on with it. -
Message 8
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Good advice in previous posts, Lilo, especially about not engaging with her. Your friend will be glad you are aware fo what is happening.
I agree with Morganish. She must be a very unhappy girl inside.
sweetfeet, is it possible for a compulsive liar to face what they do and to change their behaviour at all. I am not relating the question to Lilo's particular case. -
Message 9
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Just tagging on at the end here as the subject interests me. My 13 year old niece is showing signs of developing into a compulsive liar and I have the (naive?) idea that since she's still young there may be some way to head her off this path. Any thoughts/experiences?
She lies about such stupid things - things that are quite obviously untrue but still she insists that she's in the right. In a younger child it might even be amusing it's so transparant, but she's not a cute child any more, she's a sulky teenager and surely she should be able to realise how stupid her stories are? -
Message 10
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Perhaps you could start challenging her on the most stupid, obvious lies and have a concerned conversation about why she does it and, importantly, about the way it leaves you feeling about her? I can remember lying when I was young because I didn't want adults knowing everything I had been doing - not because I was up to anything bad, but because I wanted to keep parts of my life to myself. In some ways it's a control issue with young people. If you can, gently, make the point that her lies make you uncomfortable, and perhaps give her permission to say straight out 'I really don't want to tell you about that, please don't ask' then you may show her a way through the situation.
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Message 11
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Friday, 20th January 2012
is it possible for a compulsive liar to face what they do and to change their behaviour at all.Â
I honestly don't know SilverJen. Of course there are qualities of lies from the 'oner that got away' to the whole fabricated life type thing.
I guess we all know someone who claims to be bigger, better, faster etc., than the next person. It's fairly harmless stuff and in my experience the kind of thing you can pull their leg about.
Lies told with malice might be mote difficult to confront someone with. I can't imagine the fabricator would be willing to face up to that sort of thing.
Although I have confronted someone who told malicious lies about me, but that's not the same kind of thing. It lead to denial in that case anyway. Darn.
Might be different if they were seeking professional help, but me or you? I wouldn't think so. -
Message 12
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 20th January 2012
>>> I can remember lying when I was young because I didn't want adults knowing everything I had been doing - not because I was up to anything bad, but because I wanted to keep parts of my life to myself.<<<
well yes, obviously, we all did that (surely?)
If that was the sort of things she was lying about I wouldn't be overly concerned. There's a logical reason for such untruths. But when she's found out lying about trivia, trivia that she is Obviously Responsible For but just totally denies... It just seems so convoluted and pointless. I don't have much day to day contact with her any more since she moved further away (I had more to do with her when she was younger and living nearer) and so most of the things I get to hear about come to me via her parents or other aunts. What Mr Clogs and I fear the most that she is gradually morphing into a young version of His Older Sister... (em, nOt our favourite Clog). -
Message 13
Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Friday, 20th January 2012
It occurs to me that people who can't bear to be shown to be wrong about anything ('Black is white, yes it is, it is!') are pretty insecure. Anyone who needs to be right all the time is...well, pathetic or 13.
As for the bad clog in the family, we've all got one. I'm struggling with my niece at the moment. She's being ultra pleasant and solicitious, so I know she's working up to asking to 'borrow' money. -
Message 14
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Once again, in the space of a week, many of you coming up with good advice, and spending time to discuss the subject. Thank you so much.
This young woman has talked to me about her parents splitting up when she was 6 and that all her brother's problems and her sister being anorexic all date back to that time. I talked about it and said it's too easy to blame your parents, that all of them should maybe start to take their lives into their own hands.
Her father has remarried and has a young family but moved right away from her. Her mother remarried, with no other children of her own, but now has stepchildren but lives near her, and from what I can see maintains a friendly relationship despite her slagging her mother off behind her back. I think this has affected her to a certain degree, made her feel unloved and worthless, but not, from what I've discovered, with any definite blame. I think her mother struggles to keep a relationship going despite everything. An example is the invitation to the wedding issued to her father. He told her he thought it best he didn't go, to spare his ex-wife's feelings. It escalated to her wailing to everyone, and asking "why doesn't my father love me?" Do you see? He does love her, but she would rather be seen as some poor little unloved waif type figure. It's much more dramatic and gets her more sympathy.
I think her self esteem is rock bottom and although she seems genuinely happy about the forthcoming wedding, nothing is ever right. No one likes her, everyone is horrible to her, even down to the woman booking the wedding reception. Again, it's poor little me.
Having said all that, I really don't think that anyone can help her until she faces up to what she's doing. She isn't being that careful now about the lies. Telling the NYEve one to me when there was a house full of witnesses that it didn't happen that way was really stupid.
I used to feel very sorry for her but now I feel totally suckered in, and very foolish, so I'm going to do what most of you advise and stay out of her way, be nice when I see her for my friend's sake, but make it clear things have changed.
I don't have any advice for Clogs but it sounds a bit worrying. -
Message 15
Posted by gigglemahanaz2 (U14257954) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
your line of action is best with this young woman Lilo, steer clear but be polite when you have to be in her comapany for whatever reason.
All the fuss she's making about parents divorce and her dad saying to spare his ex wife's feelings it would be best not to go sounds like many split families these days, you only have her version of events pertaining to the divorce so have no way of really knowing what went on between her parents or the reason for the divorce.
Sound like this lady, apart from lying, likes to be a drama queen and likes to be the centre of attention, if that was said to her the response would be either not true or it's because my parents divorced when I was SO young.
I get the impression your friends son may just get his fingers very badly burned with this woman but as the saying goes love is blind marriage (if it happens in this case)is an eye opener. -
Message 16
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
As with so many other things she says, it's impossible to know both sides.
Isn't it awful, giggle, to have to stand back and watch someone on a headlong course to heartache? I suppose it's how my parents felt when they watched me trollop up the aisle with Mr Lilo the First. Doomed to disaster, but if they'd have said anything...
I do remember saying "if only someone had have told me.." but I know I'd have ignored them anyway!
Other friend and I have discussed whether to say anything to friend (with son) and decided not to. She has been in the same situation with someone else and was told in no uncertain terms it wasn't her business. *That* ended in tears as well.
Oh yes, a drama queen indeed. Pity she hasn't got any friends of her own age to cling to. I suppose that says it all. They probably got as fed up with her as I am!
Anyway, I'm boring The Viking half to death with it all, and she's getting what she wants. My attention. So I'll shut up and leave these threads now. Thank you again. Lots of very wise people in Mustardland. -
Message 17
Posted by welshteddy (U3680635) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
Just tagging on at the end here as the subject interests me. My 13 year old niece is showing signs of developing into a compulsive liar and I have the (naive?) idea that since she's still young there may be some way to head her off this path. Any thoughts/experiences?
She lies about such stupid things - things that are quite obviously untrue but still she insists that she's in the right. In a younger child it might even be amusing it's so transparant, but she's not a cute child any more, she's a sulky teenager and surely she should be able to realise how stupid her stories are? Â
Clogs, I caught my middle tedlet out in several lies recently. Silly, and fairly obvious lies.
Eventually, I said to her that I knew she had been lying and what was the point? Her reply astonished me "To make my life seem more interesting". She felt that all her friends were doing more exciting things than her, and "going into town on a school night", seemed to be a biggie. How did she know? Because they put it on Facebook. How did she know that they weren't lying about what they had been doing as well? Sheepish look started to appear. How did she know they'd been to town on a school night? Because there was a photo of them on FB and it was dark. Doesn't it get dark at 4.15 in December? Very sheepish grin spread across face.
We agreed that she would give me £1 of her £5 a week pocket money for every lie she told. The first week she lost £2. The second week she gave me (!!!) £1. She hasn't lost any money since. -
Message 18
Posted by sweetFeet (U14377598) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
Anyone listen to this the other night?
Give it a minute or two. It's after the news etc. -
Message 19
Posted by Apple-Cart (U9035861) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
<>
This struck a bit of a chord with me. No excuse for the lying, of course. But I did wonder about a father putting his ex-wife's feelings above his daughter's on the day of her wedding (or perhaps his own feelings about not wanting to be near the ex-wife). One would hope that the family, after so many years, would have learned to put their own feelings aside for a day and think about their daughter, but if not that is a tragedy for her.
I don't think it is Lilo's problem, though. She needs to get some real help, perhaps to open up a constructive dialogue with her family. -
Message 20
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
Lilo, reading your post above about your niece makes me think that she's actually my niece a few years down the line... Similar background, similar character by the sound of it.
Welshteddy - the money for lies might be a good strategy, I'll suggest it to her mum, who I'll be seeing on Monday. -
Message 21
Posted by Lilo (U12007400) on Sunday, 22nd January 2012
<>
This struck a bit of a chord with me. No excuse for the lying, of course. But I did wonder about a father putting his ex-wife's feelings above his daughter's on the day of her wedding (or perhaps his own feelings about not wanting to be near the ex-wife). One would hope that the family, after so many years, would have learned to put their own feelings aside for a day and think about their daughter, but if not that is a tragedy for her.
I don't think it is Lilo's problem, though. She needs to get some real help, perhaps to open up a constructive dialogue with her family. Applecart
From what I can gather, her father has been told quite frequently how much she hates him etc and none of us could understand why she invited him in the first place. I have serious doubts that he said anything!
Clogsy. She isn't my neice, isn't related in any way. She is the fiancee of my oldest friend's son, who I've known since he was born. Doesn't matter, though, it had to start somewhere. I'll call her H, it's easier to understand.
Last night my friend actually called H a drama queen! We were all having an Indie and discussed a supposed incident in which something electrical blew up in the flat they share and according to H, it was like fireworks going off, that she screamed and screamed and the carpet has an enormous hole burnt into it and that the flat could have burn down.
The Viking was round there yesterday, and reported it was a small singe with a mark up the skirting board you could hardly see.
Friend's eyes are being opened I think! -
Message 22
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Sunday, 22nd January 2012
Lilo - that last incident has reminded me of my MiL (and my mother). Both living on their own now, and both at considerable distance from their only offspring. They frequently phone OH and me with highly exaggerated tales of what has gone on.
MiL rang OH in great panic because her central heating boiler had 'exploded' and 'blown the doors open on the cupboard'. We were abroad at the time, and suggested she call in British Gas to have a look. They couldn't find anything wrong with it at all.
After thinking about it some weeks later, we realised that the 'explosion' had happened on 5th November, so it was probably a firework going off somewhere. I'm not sure how it blew the doors open - she's probably got a poltergeist or something...
Anyway - just attention-seeking behaviour. Should be ignored if possible, but obviously we can't when it's elderly widowed parents! -
Message 23
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Sunday, 22nd January 2012
Aha! These last few posts remind me of my bro in law and his wife, when they were younger and they were a bit hard up for cash. Actually, no they weren't hard up for cash, but they found a sure-fire way of making sure they didn't have to shell out for any major household items by saying that such and such "blew up" or "exploded"! They did it with cars too. My inlaws, worried that their tiny grandchildren might be at risk from dangerous equipment, would immediately offer money for replacements.
Nothing ever did explode or blow up, in fact I don't think anything ever actually broke, they'd just get bored with things and want the latest replacement. They don't do this any more, they don't need to, bro in law is finally earning the salary to suit the lifestyle he always aspired to. -
Message 24
Posted by gigglemahanaz2 (U14257954) on Sunday, 22nd January 2012
Lilo I think this lastest episode is really telling, making a mole hill out of an ant hole to use a family saying!
I think we've all had experiance one way or another with people like this over the years.
I don't know why but I have the impression that once this woman marries H's son she'll do her level best to drive a wedge between mother and son, try and isolate him from his mother as well as his friends, she sounds very controlling apart from being a lier as well.
I hope that this young man does see through her before it's too late but I doubt it by the sounds of it somehow!
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