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Message 1.Â
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
OK folks. I'll confess I've never been on TVH but having experienced a little bit of a problem....I thought I'd canvass the collective experience and wisdom of ML for a bit of advice.
A member of the family (niece), now early 20's, who for most of her life has suffered greatly as a result of her father leaving the family home when she was 5. She has since had no relationship with him - mostly because he shows little or no interest, is a bit of a berk (has since fathered more children with a brood of different women). She is a spiky character, has pretty serious personality issues, mostly anger management problems, that have affected her relationship with her mother (my SIL). She left home before school leaving age and has lived in various hostels and flats since.
She has hardly worked from the time she left school.
As her uncle, I've always made her a bit of a friend. We get on well. She appears to respect me. I've always stressed to her how much I love her (as well as her brother) and I will listen to her without judgement, help, assist in whatever way I can.....and will thereby involve my wife wherever possible in handling whatever might be the problem. That doesn't prevent me from adopting a more direct approach when necessary (although I have to be very careful to not alienate).
The thing is....my young niece is a bit of a closed book. She lives her life pretty much well away from the rest of the family....through choice.
Now to the specifics of the problem. It has since come to light that she has accused a man (who I know very well) of attempted sexual assault. Both mrs BBD and myself have done some further digging and discovered, without going into details, it is extremely unlikely to be true, therefore a total fabrication. We think it more likely she has done this as a cover for deeper problems that may be ongoing in her life - she hangs around with some pretty dodgy characters - there have been threats, beatings, drugs, drink abuse).
I desperately want to keep her on my side. I want her to know I can be trusted. I want to guide and coach her through her difficulties because at heart she is a kind hearted young lady.
But what she has done (to this man) is serious. Totally unacceptable.
So I am asking, what to do from here? -
Message 2
Posted by gigglemahanaz2 (U14257954) on Friday, 20th January 2012
If drugs, drink and violence are involved this needs careful handling.
Does the young woman take drugs or drink?
If so as you know both do addle the brain so a greater degree.
Have you thought of inviteing her round for a meal to try and get to the bottom of why she made this claim? If you do you could try something along the lines of oh did you such and such in the paper/ on the news about................I hope you feel you could trust me enough to tell me if anything like this ever happened to you and take it from there to see what response you get.
It's a hard one to deal with and what one person would do may not work for you but it's worth a try.
Hope this helps. -
Message 3
Posted by BrightYangThing (U14627705) on Friday, 20th January 2012
A real dilemma BBD - I don't envy you but this young lady should know how lucky she is that someone cares enough to take a stand.
Two things - not really advice.
1) To whom has she made these allegations? If they are with the police all you may be able to do is give your concerns and character witness of the accused.
2) Can you be absolutely 100% sure that no untoward advance or actions was taken by this friend? A male of my acquaintance, a good man by almost every measure found himself unable to resist the advances and admiration of a young female. Now in prison.
Any hint of 'taking sides' or not believing your niece could be disastrous. It sounds to me as if you may need to help by ignoring this issue unless you were actually a witness - and help her seek help for the problems that may have helped place her and you in this predicament.
Good luck. -
Message 4
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Thank you so far. Appreciated!
1. She is dropping by for a visit this weekend so I am thinking of what can be said to give her more of a sense of total security with us. That we will help....come what may. And that she can tell us anything.....including any mistakes she may have made or regrets. Part of er problem seems to be that those closest to her, i.e. her biological mom and dad, have let her down so badly. And that they have.
2. Yes BNYT....without going into detail, I suppose there will always be a slither of possibility that it may have actually happened but both myself and Mrs BBD are sure as we can ever be that it is more likely she has fabricated the details than it be the truth. We both asked ourselves the question, if we were a jury having had opportunity to consider the veracity of both sets of supporting evidence, what would we conclude? We both pretty quickly arrived at the same answer. -
Message 5
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Forgot to mention giggle.....
Yes, there is a drink and drugs problem going on. To what extent and how serious, I'm not quite sure tbh. But yes definitely.
Also, we suspect there is a heavy negative influence coming from some of the folk she will knock about with. -
Message 6
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Don, not sure if you've thought of this but it might be prudent to be careful that you don't put yourself in a position that you yourself may be accused of anything by her. She sounds like a very mixed up young lady.
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Message 7
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Yes, I am always mindful of that Campbell and will always involve my wife in whatever way possible. So we will talk about so and so and I might suggest...."ok, thanks for telling me about . Your aunty xxxxxx was once in a similar position so let's see if she can offer any help".
True, she is a very mixed up lass but my conclusion is that it is better she has at least someone trusted....than none at all. Without doubt it is a very fine line to tread so I agree completely with your flashing the warning light. -
Message 8
Posted by Farmer Sue Tickle (U14964746) on Friday, 20th January 2012
I don't have anything useful to suggest, but I do have a question. What does she hope to gain by this allegation? Is it attention, pity, acceptance by her peer group, validation of her low self-esteem? I wonder if understanding the motive may give a clue to how to deal with this.
BBD I wish all troubled young people had someone like you to look out for them - the world would be a better place. -
Message 9
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Friday, 20th January 2012
I'm glad you didn't find the suggestion offensive but I've seen it happening before and it does seem to be difficult for men to defend themselves sometimes. (Not suggesting of course that every allegation is false, but it can and does happen.)
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Message 10
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Thanks for your kind comment Sue Tickle!
: )
And you raise some very good questions. There is so much more I could tell but it would be lengthy. So in short.....we think she is being coerced into wrongdoing by some of her associates. The person she has accused has had money go missing and although there is no absolute and definitive proof, there remains a [strong question] that it could be my niece. She was asked about it but reacted very angrily....then shortly after counter accused with (attempted sexual assault).
But she has never been the kind of girl who would rob or steal. Which is why we think the influence is coming from some pretty shifty associations she will keep. Why she chooses to knock with them I really do not know. -
Message 11
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
I'm glad you didn't find the suggestion offensive but I've seen it happening before and it does seem to be difficult for men to defend themselves sometimes. (Not suggesting of course that every allegation is false, but it can and does happen.) Â No, not at all offended. The reality is...it does sometimes happen.
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Message 12
Posted by BrightYangThing (U14627705) on Friday, 20th January 2012
The more I read and think about this BBD, the more I think you should aim to just be a neutral place of acceptance for her - and leave any delving and game playing to try and establish her motivation/actions to professionals.
I think the poor child sounds like she is in a mess.
How you get professional help I am jot sure - start with teh GP? Does she have any basic health issues such as asthma that might warrant a visit. Perhaps a word about your worries. They won't 'talk' back to you but may consider your concerns.
There but for the goodness of whoever.................... -
Message 13
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 20th January 2012
bigdad, your niece is fortunate to have unconditional, if tough, love from yourself and your wife.
You are right to be anxious about the current situation. An accusation against a man of sexual assault is very serious. it is almost impossible for a man to regain his reputation intact even if he is judged innocent in court. If it has /not/ been made to the police you may be in time to help her retrieve her accusation.
Presumably if she is taking drugs she goes back to the same group to find her dealer. You are aware they are a bad influence. At her low times she perhaps felt they cared about her when no one else seemed to. She is more fortunate than some in her situation: she has you both fighting in her corner. You may not like what she does but love is so much sronger than that. -
Message 14
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 20th January 2012
>But she has never been the kind of girl who would rob or steal.<
If her drink and drugs issues are serious Don then she may well be doing all sorts of things that she is not the kind of girl to do - stealing to support a dependency is pretty routine, I would think.
I'm sorry to hear of the situation and support Campbell's suggestion that you are careful about your own position. -
Message 15
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
She isn't a GP going kind of girl BNYT....unless forced.
She's ghetto, street.....that kind of girl.......who considers the rest of the family 'stuck up'. -
Message 16
Posted by savannahlady (U2362903) on Friday, 20th January 2012
What a sad story this is Don as clearly you understand. It sounds as if this young woman has got herself into a situation where the people she sees as her friends are sadly those who likely to get her into even more trouble. They may even be behind the allegation she has made against your friend, either directly or because she has heard them talk about doing this kind of thing.
I've not had to deal directly with young people in this kind of situation but I have, as a counsellor/lay adviser/chaplain dealt with others involved with them - carers, extended family members and so on. Thinking about those times, it seems to me that the young person is often helped best by having an alternative way of life held out to them and support in moving towards that alternative. No-one can really be happy living as it sounds as if she is, but at the moment, it may seem to her better than any alternative that she can see.
I suppose what I am talking about is some kind of 'rescue', if that is not too strong a word, before it is too late to 'get her back' as it were. I think I would be inclined myself to talk to an organisation that is involved directly in dealing with young people who have drink and drug problems - perhaps your local Social Services may have a unit which helps with advice or you could try this organisation: . Often, there are local charities which have been established as a result of someone's tragedy and you could research those too. CAB and SAMs will be able to help with that.
You may have tried all this before of course, I don't know. My personal response is that, whilst you must clearly be careful in your handling of this (as you are and involving your wife is paramount), equally I would not be happy myself if I didn't try to find a way to show her that there is a different way to living her life, because I tend to think that her current way of living may well be behind her allegation. That does mean that you have to find and talk to those who do it all the time, because only they will know where to begin and how best to tackle it. It won't be easy I am sure, but it could be one of the most worthwhile things you've ever done.
Good luck,
Savvie -
Message 17
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
>But she has never been the kind of girl who would rob or steal.<
If her drink and drugs issues are serious Don then she may well be doing all sorts of things that she is not the kind of girl to do - stealing to support a dependency is pretty routine, I would think.
I'm sorry to hear of the situation and support Campbell's suggestion that you are careful about your own position. Thanks Fee. Yes, I am very open to the fact that effectively anyone can be coerced into doing things they would rather not have an involvement but OTOH there are some (drug users, alcoholics etc) who absolutely under no circumstances will for example never wash, appear unkempt, steal, rob, mug etc.
AFAICT, niece fits into that latter category. Nevertheless, as mentioned upthread, I do worry about types she is mixing with and their influence over her decision making. This is rather scary.
And yes, I am being very careful as regards the vulnerabilities of my position in this whole debacle. Thing is....she clearly needs help of some sort. -
Message 18
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Thanking you SilverJenny.
Tbh she does my nut but without doubt is very dear to me/us. What is extremely difficult is her being such a closed book. She is a lovely young woman when she comes to visit but I cannot help but think there are some less than admirable activities going on of which I have no idea, knowledge or understanding.
The challenge is getting into her head to build trust effective enough for her to make the needed changes. She seems to trust no one and lives her life on the outer circle of most family members. That I do not necessarily mind - her choice - but the sum total of those choices, so far, have not been good at all. -
Message 19
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Thanks kindly savlady. All worthwhile suggestions.
I have to say, from where I stand at this minute, it does seem a case of 'you are the company you keep'.
The challenge of breaking that is immense. -
Message 20
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 20th January 2012
bigdad, you may find there is a local clinic or drop in centre she would go to. There is one in my town : needle exchange & help with the health problems people get when living in hostels or b&b. and access to other services.
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Message 21
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Just to be clear, though I think drugs is an issue (alcohol, weed/skunk AFAIK) I think it more likely she is funding the lifestyles of others, who may be threatening her.
Sorry to sound a little ambiguous.....obviously I'm unsure. -
Message 22
Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Philip Larkin had it right didn't he - about what parents do to you....
Can you offer her a stay with you guys. Once she feels secure and safe she may open up a little? -
Message 23
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Philip Larkin had it right didn't he - about what parents do to you....
Can you offer her a stay with you guys. Once she feels secure and safe she may open up a little? Great suggestion GEm. I really like that one. Thanks. -
Message 24
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Friday, 20th January 2012
>OTOH there are some (drug users, alcoholics etc) who absolutely under no circumstances will for example never wash, appear unkempt, steal, rob, mug etc<
Don, as a dependency gets worse, what the addict won't do narrows - some people reach a point at which their horror at what they find themselves doing in order to support or as a consequence of the addiction prompts them to do something about it - others don't.
The person whose advice you really need to attract to this thread, I think, is Giddy Kipper. -
Message 25
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Friday, 20th January 2012
What an addict will do.
Early twenties, never worked, no children...
JSA £53.45
Take off water rates, gas, electric, telephone/mobile, TV licence, clothes, food, toiletries, general household items, bus fare to jobcentre, stationery, stamps (for job applications to keep JC+ happy)...
What's left for drugs?
Maybe finding an opportunity to find out whether she's in debt and sit down with her and work on her budget will tell you a lot about where the money is coming from.
I think it takes a savvy kid flatsharing with likeminded people to survive on £54/week let alone buy drink/drugs.
I know nothing about how much drugs cost, but this is what Frank says "Prices can vary from region to region, but it has an average price of £10 a bag. Feeding a heroin habit can cost up to £100 a day."
So she's on £54/week, she's got the cost of living and she needs between £10 and £100/day. Where's that coming from? Even a couple of bags a week won't leave her enough to live on.
I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm writing off everyone with a drug habit as dishonest, but the money has to come from somewhere. If you've got a well paid job, you can afford to buy drugs without stealing; if you've an everyday job, you can afford a bit of some sort of drug, legal or illegal like a bit of tobacco, alcohol or whatever; but on JSA? Only at the expense of things like heat and light and food.
The other possibility that sadly a lot of addicts turn to is selling themselves. Nice, decent looking girls (and boys) can turn out to be prostitutes. If they're savvy and also still have their looks, they might be able to be picky and also get a lot of money but I think for many it's a miserable, poorly-paid job. -
Message 26
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Friday, 20th January 2012
Fair comment Fee. I wouldn't disagree. As you say, some do, others are not prepared. That was my point.
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Message 27
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
I not sure "prepared" is quite what I meant. Anyway, reading the thread again I think I misunderstood you - I originally read you to be saying that she is not the sort of person to steal (although you also say that she keeps herself to herself and you find her a bit of a closed book) and therefore she probably hadn't - reading it again I think you are saying that you think she probably did steal but that she is being coerced into it.
As others have said I think all you can do is demonstrate that she has an alternative set of people to turn to and that she can in fact choose whether or not to continue with her current way of life. Reading again more carefully, I also think I might be a little careful about making outright promises that in no circumstances would you reveal anything that she might say to anyone else. -
Message 28
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
The person she has accused has had money go missing and although there is no absolute and definitive proof, there remains a [strong question] that it could be my niece. She was asked about it but reacted very angrily....then shortly after counter accused with (attempted sexual assault).Â
Attack is the best form of defence, perhaps?
But she has never been the kind of girl who would rob or steal.Â
How does that sit with The person she has accused has had money go missing and although there is no absolute and definitive proof, there remains a [strong question] that it could be my niece ?
How would someone (like the police, maybe) who hasn't known her all her life, like you, see her? -
Message 29
Posted by bigbad_don Est1886 (U3243025) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
Fee.
When I said 'prepared', I was responding to your comment....
>>some people reach a point at which their horror at what they find themselves doing in order to support or as a consequence of the addiction prompts them to do something about it - others don't.<<
....i.e., in the sense of what one is willing, or not, to do..... -
Message 30
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Saturday, 21st January 2012
I think I just thought "prepared" sounded more judgmental than perhaps necessary. All I meant was that people usually need to feel not only unhappy with what they are currently doing but able to feel that an alternative is both preferable and possible before they are able to make the choice to switch. Sometimes the only thing which does not look preferable to alcohol/other substance abuse is death (and sometimes not even that) - sometimes the "rock bottom" (to use that rather tired metaphor) comes a whole lot sooner.
Was I correct in my second reading of what you were saying about possible theft, by the way? -
Message 31
Posted by Prinkma (U14661090) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
>>I know nothing about how much drugs cost, but this is what Frank says www.talktofrank.com/... "Prices can vary from region to region, but it has an average price of £10 a bag. Feeding a heroin habit can cost up to £100 a day."<<
Weed wouldn't cost anything like that, though. It would be cheaper than alcohol.
You're right to be wary about her version of the sexual assault, but pillars of the community DO take advantage of young people if they think they can get away with it.
Remember Shipman's patients parading up and down outside his clinic, with placards declaring their support for him? Nobody knows what someone else is capable of.
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