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Dementia/Lasting Power of Attorney

• Message 1. 

  Posted by spangledashy (U15115853) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  This is my first post here...sorry it's a long one!!! I appreciate your patience.
  
  My MiL is 85, and for the last few years her memory has been deteriorating. A couple of months ago she was diagnosed with dementia, and the psychiatrist strongly recommended that she set up an LPA.
  
  Despite much, well, nagging from myself and OH, she still has not done this. She does not think that she is 'bad enough' to do it, but she fails to understand that now is the time to do it, before she loses any more capacity. She lives in a lovely flat, close to all amenities, and just a few tube stops away from us. She is able to shop, cook, and care for herself and her flat more than adequately.
  
  OH works away from home most of the time, our three children are adults and have their own lives, so I am in the firing line, so to speak. We have a reasonably good relationship, really because I see her as a rather lonely old lady who appreciates company. But she is is not a nice person. She has no tact, no empathy, and is Always Right. She has a 'can't be bothered' attitude, and this is how she feels about doing an LPA (she also baulks at paying solicitor's fees, even though money is not an issue; she hates spending) She would be happy to do it, I think, if I set it up(which I cannnot do) and paid for it.
  
  I am really very worried about this, especially as I think it is unlikely that she will do it. What will happen if/when she loses mental capacity and need care at home etc.? Will OH and I have to pay for this ourselves because we do not have access to her funds? This may sound very mean and hard-hearted, but we have spent all our money supporting all the children through university and retirement is looming!
  
  Sometimes her memory seems very selective, and she has admitted to me that she sometimes dramatises it. She can be very manipulative, and sometimes I wonder if the memory loss is more a case of her not 'bothering' to remember.
  
  Sorry to sound so heartless, but I am getting worried.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Elnora Cornstalk (U5646495) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  I'm sure more up--to-date and systematic answers will be along in a minute, spangledashy, but I just wanted to say you're right to be alarmed, but I'm sure this is the place to help you.
  
  Old history - my thoroughly sharp F-i-L died 13 years ago, leaving as he thought a watertight will. He had taken out LPA for us to use for him, and to continue using his money to support my M-i-L who had for some years been in a care home with severe dementia. All seemed well until the solicitor told us there was a key error in the will (to do with a shared account), so we couldn't access M-i-L's money.
  
  We had to take out loans for the care home, and pay for everything else M-i-L needed, while the Court of Protection (as it was then.. not sure if it exists now) slowly went through all its labyrinthine procedures. We could apply for reimbursement, slowly, cheque by cheque, form by form. It was like a form of nightmare, alleviated for us by the shared support and help of my OH's lovely sister and her OH.
  
  My own parents, who are still alive and alert, were very opposed to LPAs, for various reasons - not least, the 'not yet', 'we're fine, thank you', what a waste of money, don't want to give you any trouble, arguments.
  
  But on being reminded, in all the detail (which we'd previously spared them) of our previous situation, they suddenly changed their minds. Thank goodness.
  
  If only on the grounds of 'much cheaper now than it all going to solicitors later', perhaps your MiL might be persuaded. Perhaps write down the benefits / disadvantages and leave them with her?
  
  All the very best, spangle. I really feel for you in this.
  
  Elnora xxxx

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Dragonfly (U2223700) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  Hi, spangledashy, sorry to hear of this tricky situation. I have no expertise to offer, but I do know that if your mother-in-law doesn't set up a lasting power of attorney then in due course the Court of Protection would have to step in to ensure that her affairs do get sorted out. I know very little about this except that I think I recall hearing it's best avoided if possible, which is the advantage of the LPA as that would enable you to take control of her affairs much more easily.
  
  This is a government website with information about the C of P:
  
  
  
  There's a link on the side of the page to other useful info about mental capacity, LPA etc.
  
  I can only think that your m-in-l either can't or won't think ahead to a point where she can't look after her own affairs and make the leap of empathy that in that eventuality it would make life a lot simpler for her son and you, and therefore also for her, if she had an LPA. I suppose it's the same mindset that stops some people making a will - their reluctance to face their own mortality outweighs their desire to leave their affairs in good order for their family.
  
  Good luck!

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Friend of Moose (U14307683) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  Does she know anyone else of her own age who has done/is thinking of having an LPA drawn up.
  
  I think for people who like to feel they are 'in control' it is actually a way of staying in control, by having their wishes and preferences put down clearly in a way that is binding.
  
  My mother had it done recently. She did baulk a bit at the cost of the solicitor. But she opted for someone who did a 'package deal' so she knew from the outset what the cost would be.
  
  There are lists of solicitors specialising in the care of the elderly.
  
  I'd imagine people like the Alzheimers Society and Age Concern will also offer advice on this issue, as people may feel they don't want to be 'talked into' anything by family members.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by spangledashy (U15115853) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  Thanks to you all for your replies and good wishes.....I know that without an LPA, the CoP would step in and things would get difficult, but I realise that neither OH or myself can make her do this. I have explained until I am blue in the face how it works, and that it would be for her benefit, but I feel that her attitude is 'I am Always Right, what do YOU know?'
  
  OH is not very well disposed towards her; he had a difficult time as a child and teenager and he blames her (she never praised him; always made him feel 'not good enough'). Very sad, I know. I try and treat her with the care and respect that I hope my own children would show me.
  
  OH says that if she fails to do an LPA, then she will be on her own. He won't fund any care for her, we can't afford to anyway, and says that he will just leave it up to Social Services.
  
  All I hope is that she will retain mental capacity for as long as possible.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Elnora Cornstalk (U5646495) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  This sounds very familiar, spangledashy, and I'm grinding my teeth in sympathy! I think Friend of Moose's points about asking specialist associations and about other peers of your M-i-L's are good ones.
  
  Someone who believes they are Always Right needs space to let themselves off the hook and not lose face (further loss of self-esteem and control is just what she seems to be avoiding - and who can blame here).
  
  I'm not very good at this tactic with my own father, who is lovely but stubborn, but OH has helped me over the years, and now I do try to step back and stop going for blue in the face arguments. It hasn't worked in all the areas I'd like (!) but has often proved amazingly successful. Left alone, but with information to hand, there's often been a sudden turnaround - especially if he can work his way into feeling he's discovered the solution.
  
  Could you, meanwhile, set up the system for yourselves, with your own children, and show her (by quiet example) that's it's nothing to be ashamed of? (Your children might be relieved as well!)

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by BaraGwenith (U14257539) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  Is your M-i-L's will in good order? Have any of her executors moved away or died since she last did it. Try and avoid appointing the bank as an executor. Banks are expensive. Most solicitors will combine LPA with will making or revision.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by politeLadyPortia (U7099336) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  An argument which might work is that a Deputyship in the Court of Protection will be more costly in the long run interms of fees and annual management.... and may mean that someone she is not happy with handling her affairs may be appointed. There is some evidence of Local Authorities increasingly putting themselves forward for the job. They will not necessarily do things in the way she wants....
  Plus an LPA enables her to choose who should support her..... and have someone she trusts..... plus being able to set out guidance for her attorneys in the LPA. When I was in practice I found this and the alternative of the Court of Protection were powerful arguments with clients!
  Indeed many care homes now ask if an LPA is place and indeed expect this to be the case
  Do remember that there are two types of LPA- Property and Affairs and Health and Welfare. Both need to be registered BUT the H and W one can only be used when capacity is lost.
  Another card to play is the belt and braces one. It is there if needed but can lie dormant until then....
  Once dementia is diagnosed I am sorry to say that it does become urgent as the question of capacity to make an LPA is an integral part of the process in that a Certificate provider will have to confirm the rlevant status
  .The Professional Group Solicitors for the Elderly do offer specialist legal advice in this field- www.solicitorsfortheelderly.com and cover most of the UK and Ireland
  HTH
  PLP

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Emma - no relation (U2818673) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  I recently had to do this for myself (ie get an LPA done for me). I was advised to have it registered with CoP immediately, even though not currently needed. That took two months. If I'd left to later my money would not have been accesible during that period. I do think it is potentially relevant for everyone and when updating your will is a good trigger.
  
  There are useful suggestions for trying to persuade MiL that sooner is better and cheaper than later.
  
  Good luch
  
  ENR

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  Gosh - in the years I have been posting in ML so many of us have had this problem in one shape or another.
  
  My aged P discussed Power of Attorney with me quite rationally, and was ready to go with me and my sibling to the solicitor (this was in the days of the old-style Enduring Power of Attorney). Before we could actually put this in place, she was taken ill, hospitalised, and lost capacity for a few months. Then the law changed, so we were faced with starting it all from scratch under the new legislation.
  
  As someone mentioned upthread, entry into a Care Ö÷²¥´óÐã was the 'tipping point'. They wanted a PoA in place.
  
  We had to get a solicitor to visit her in hospital, with a Psych. Consultant on hand in case she did not appear to have capacity on the day that the deed was to be signed. The solicitor asked to speak to her alone whilst I waited in the hospital canteen. Fortunately she was having a 'Good Day' and appeared to understand what the form was, and what she was signing.
  
  Sorry for mithering on, but just thought I'd share what might happen if you delay. It could, of course, have been much worse. If she had been having one of her 'funny days' we would have had to go down the route of the Court of Protection.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by GEm (U4356909) on Thursday, 26th January 2012

  and as PLP points out the COP may appoint a bank or solicitor who will have to be paid out of her money whereas she can appoint you or someone else to do it for free!
  
  When my mum was ill I was eternally grateful that she had given me EPA and I was able to manage her home and bills and keep everything running for her to stop her worrying. I could sign things and she could focus on getting well (- well except she died!). It was a relief for both of us at an already stressful time
  
  OH and I have both had EPAs in place for the last 10 years together with living wills (also lodged with GP) and we recently updated our wills
  
  G

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by JennyDarling Long Gone (U250754) on Friday, 27th January 2012

  My OH and I took out EPA when we remade our wills a few years ago, and I had one for my mum too - she thought it a good idea, blessher.
  
  In the event, she did have dementia but was never difficult, and I didn't have to invoke the EPA, she merely signed letters to her bank authorising me to act for her, and I was able to do so. I just told her what I was doing every time, and she was grateful. Up to the time she died she seemed to have no idea of money any more, it all went over her head, and I'm glad she wasn't worried.

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