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What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
I am. Always have been. Don't know why. Housemate says the same, which is a comfort, as she is a really lovely person, so it isn't necessarily because I am uniquely vile. She says it has something to do with appearing strong while actually being quite fragile - is she right?
If not what?Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 2
Posted by Imperfectly37 (U4335981) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
When I was bullied at school, my deputy head explained that it was because I was confident and the bullies were jealous. I can tell you I am also fragile underneath, so perhaps your housemate is right.
What I want to know is, how did the bullies know that?Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 3
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
I was not bullied at school, but that's partly because it was quite a decent school and it would have been noticed and stopped.
I am getting really weary of it now though.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 4
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
I don't know how the bullies know that this apparently strong person is fragile underneath.
But somehow they enjoy trying to make me crack. Who knows. It actually doesn't take much.
I think another part of my problem is that I am perhaps over-generous and over-obliging and people do take advantage.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 5
Posted by luckyme (U14359175) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
I was bullied at the grammar school I attended in an area where most of the pupils were very well off, whereas I was quite clearly not. (my mum was cook to titled folk)
No help from the teachers, when I tried to explain that the reason I was not wearing my beret on the school bus was because other kids had grabbed it and were throwing it around. One of those same young gentlemen/ladies also reported my 'sin'
The assistant head then gave me further detention for telling tales, on top of the lines I was given for for the first offence.
I was a very scared young 11 year old, and totally bewildered by the unfairness of it all. I did rather badly at that school, which had a reputation for being a high achieving school. At 14, I moved to a much better school but the damage had been done and I never recovered the lost ground, educationally, only managing 3 O levels.
How I laughed when I heard it had been turned into a comprehensive.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 6
Posted by JennyDarling Long Gone (U250754) on Sunday, 29th January 2012
You come across as being kind and caring, Kate - sorry to hear you are having these problems.
The only bullying I have suffered was from my last head, who simply wanted to rid the school of several of us "old stock". I have never felt so awful in all my life, going through that situation.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 7
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) ** on Monday, 30th January 2012
Good morning, Kate.
I'm a domestic violence counsellor, and the vast, vast majority of my clients are conscientious, kind, loyal people, who try their best to be good partners, parents, children, etc.
If they weren't like this, paradoxically, they wouldn't be so possible to abuse - the first sign of difficulty and they'd be "Well, you can something off, then" and that would be the end of it.
There's got to be balances, reciprocity (not in every relationship, but we all need to give, and we all need to be given to, to some extent)
Classically, with adults, the abuse/bullying happens gradually, so that you don't see it coming, and when you realise it's happening, patterns have already started to be established.
People who bully are often really good manipulators, who use the (often, in reality, very little) power that they have to great extent to control those who they think will make effective victims.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 8
Posted by gigglemahanaz2 (U14257954) on Monday, 30th January 2012
It's awful when this happens, been there when I was at Primary school, one of the teachers too a violent dislike to me and made sure her favorites carried the bullying on in the playground, it was one of the worst year's of my life and it stays with you for the rest of your life.
My parents did get it sorted in the end but the headmistress wasn't too pleased about then going in to fight my corner (it was a catholic school and the head was an old school nun).
It happened again in my first job as well, I had 7 years of it, I think it's because I was, at the time, so quite and fairly shy, there was no one I could ask for help or talk to as it was a small family fun firm.
Now it's a diffrent matter, I won't let anyone use me as a door mat no matter who the hell they are.
At school the bullying was a result of the fact I had to have a lot of time out as I was in and out of hospital and I was overweight, in my first job it was becase I was quite and two of the girls there used to take advantage of me as they knew I wasn''t confident enough to stand up to them.
I've learnt from my mistakes and now stand up for myself.
I've found bullies are ususally cowards anyway and when you stand up to them they tend to back off somewhat, they don't expect you to bite back.
It's easy to say what you would do in that situation but it depends on the bullying and the bully!Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 9
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Monday, 30th January 2012
I was bullied at primary school and it has affected me my whole life. Luckily, I have not been bullied as an adult but it makes me savage when I hear of it anywhere.
I agree that bullies are manipulative and, whether they know it or not, they are good at spotting that inner vulnerability behind an apparently confident exterior. I guess we all give out small cues about what we really feel and the bullies latch onto that. And once they have seen that it has an effect, however small, they will keep at it like an itch they have to scratch.
The only comfort I can offer you is that you are undoubtedly a much more thoughtful and sensitive person than your tormentors who probably lack the self-knowledge even to know that they are bullies.
Carrick-bend: are there forms of counselling that can enable people to become less vulnerable to bullying?Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 10
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) ** on Monday, 30th January 2012
Isabel Archer, yes, I'd say that counselling in general, especially if that's your sort of "target" could allow you the space to look at, for example, patterns in the start of bullying, that you could be aware of quick enough to take avoiding action, and what there is in how you present yourself that makes bullies see you as a possible target.
Counselling doesn't offer a magic wand, or guaranteed solutions, but it can give you a supportive environment. The actual type of counselling isn't quite so important as the therapeutic relationship which you and the counsellor build.
I use Person-centred counselling, which works well for empowerment, and giving people space to find their own solutions.
Here's a utility provided by BACP ; might be a first step to finding a counsellor,
It's important to find someone who you feel you could communicate well with - the chemistry is important, like any relationship.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 11
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Just musing...
I was reading yesterday that men can tell when a woman is menstruating just from her voice. (Not her words - they tested men using recorded voices counting to four.) Now if someone can pick up something as subtle as the change in a woman's tone of voice when she's menstruating, which I don't think most of us are consciouslly aware of, surely it must be fairly easy for a bully to pick up on small changes in tone of voice in someone who's a good victim. Add in changes to facial expression, body language and words used and hey presto, the bully has identified a good victim.
I think people bully for various reasons. Some people just get off on it. For some people, it's tribal. Being in the wrong gang can lead to bullying by members of another gang, but refusing to join any gang can make you very vulnerable to bullying, which increases people's tribalism and gang culture. This shows in anything from office politics to street gangs to international warfare.
Years of bullying left me feeling vulnerable but I don't have an easy answer to it. I was bullied at home, at school, at work. I have moved house because of it. I have had a breakdown because of it.
I think it's had one positive effect - it's reinforced my empathy.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 12
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Yes, on this occasion there was a "gang" aspect to it. I didn't belong to the gang.
Counselling? Aye, right...not if you haven't any money. I've been on the list for the local free service since Hector was a lad and I expect the people I registered with have all retired or died by now.
I have to go back to the same workplace today and five times (long days: 14 hours) over the next two weeks. I can only pray that the bullies are not allocated the same section as I am, though I think that if they are I will say "I don't think that's a very good idea" and if the manager insists, then simply go home, even if that means I lose my shifts. She knows that something happened, and though obviously she is inclined to believe her permanent workers she is also aware that on this occasion it is not as simple as that.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 13
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Monday, 30th January 2012
I find it easier to deal with 'bullying' by calling it 'Manipulative Behaviour'. I endured quite a bit of playground bullying when I was a child, and I also had people in work who behaved manipulatively towards me. However, when I view it as 'manipulative behaviour', I understand that it could, and is, applied to anyone. If you observe the manipulative person over time, you will see that they try it out on most people, and then home in on the one who appears to crumble.
I don't think that some people have 'victim' tattooed on their foreheads, but I do think that a manipulative person can spot subtle differences in reactions in this 'trying out' phase.
Best defence is never to allow yourself to be alone with the person. If you have a witness, you have a potential ally. Then the hard work begins.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 14
Posted by MrsGks (U14084771) on Monday, 30th January 2012
My son was verbally bullied at primary school and I thought it would end when he changed schools but no ... kids from his old school who previously hadn't bullied him then proceeded to do so at new school and others then joined in.
Now in his 20s he finds it very difficult to mix socially and suffers with severe depression. He once said to me that he wondered how the bullies would react if they bumped into him in the street or if they knew the "damage" they had done.
BTW: his "crime" .. he was a small, quiet, clever boy.
My hope is that one day he will be like giggle and be confident enough to stand up for himself.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 15
Posted by Sunny Clouds (U14258963) on Monday, 30th January 2012
The people I found worst to deal with at work were 'snipers'. (I use the word just because it was the one used on a course I did about difficult people.) I found it a particular problem in team meetings. One person in particular, backed up by her cronies, would say something that made me appear in the wrong, but it was the classic sort of thing you get at school and in the workplace where if you query it it's said or implied that you just can't take a joke.
The forumula I was taught was "Ouch! That hurt! Did you really mean it?" That puts them on the spot to either justify their remark or withdraw it. They have to be explicit about whether it's serious or a joke and if they hesitate, it puts them in a bad light.
To my surprise, it works.
I think that in the workplace, some of us get exploited more easily than others, maybe because we're more conscientious than some. I think with the benefit of hindsight and a few experiments in dealing with this, that one effective approach is to insist on everyone working the same shifts/carrying the same caseload/having access to the same facilities. It immediately sends a number of messages - you want to be one of the gang, not different, which neutralises that motive for bullying you; you're not prepared to be used as a scapegoat for a poorer service; those that criticise how you do something to divert attention from how they do things won't be able to because they won't be able to highlight irrelevant differences/deficiencies.
I just wish I'd learnt that years ago and had the strength to stick to my guns.
It's that or get ambitious and use people's objections to insist on change that actually advantages you, but that requires strong skills.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 16
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Mrs Gks - I do so feel for you, and for your son. I suppose that sometimes, when the bullying happens to very young people they don't develop strategies to deal with it.
Elder Bolero has a friend from schooldays who sounds in the same place as your son. Even though EB goes out with him, and they have a good time, the depression is always there, along with the past bullying. I don't know how someone can make that leap to leave the past behind.
I'm not sure how I did it myself - I have a relative who still tries the 'manipulative behaviour' on me now - but I can laugh it off and ignore it (although I make sure I am never alone with them). I suppose I'm extraordinarily fortunate.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 17
Posted by JennyDarling Long Gone (U250754) on Monday, 30th January 2012
In m case, the bullying by the head teacher, she was new and informed me that my teaching came under the heading of Incompetent, I was monitored by her and a dragon of an advisor, who would sit stony faced and will me too make errors. There is no way that I was incompetent - all my colleagues agreed with me, they were astounded at her allegations, two left without sorting out their pensions, they were so angry on my behalf. I was an extremely competent teacher, liked by my class who loved my sense of humour (she had no sense of humour) got on well with most of the parents, could always keep order, my SATs results for KS1 just the same as the other people in my team, she just wanted those of us who had been under the previous head out - and she took the cruellest route to do so to me. I had the union in, and went early, accepted a lower pension but had peace of mind. I find it hard to forgive her for the pain I suffered. She would make me cry in her office, and then say Why not go home now? I refused, washed my face and went back to my little flock. To cap it all you should have heard the eulogy I got at my retirement do!! Really sick making, all my friends who had supported me (and the others who got persecuted too, and are still being, all those years later) were rolling their eyes and muttering behind their hands!
Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 18
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Monday, 30th January 2012
I don't think bullies can "know the damage they have done" in that way because insofar as they are bullies they (a) lack empathy (b) excuse themselves and blame the other - any other - and (c) in some sense genuinely don't understand the effects of their activities and so genuinely would not "see" the connection.
Also, and this is only true of the worse bullies, some of them would actually take pleasure in having caused pain - as was said upthread, some people really seem to get off on causing pain. A sort of sadism? I don't know. It may be a power thing, too.
I do want to report that I have had an extremely good conversation with my agency who have supported me to the hilt and have, at my request, cancelled all my shifts with the place where I was bullied, and promised to find me other shifts for the next two weeks. I am going in today (as I explained to the agency) because I don't want to cause the huge inconvenience that would be involved in trying to replace me at such short notice. But I am not working with the same people, and if I am asked to I shall simply walk away.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 19
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) ** on Monday, 30th January 2012
Kate, as you've been honest with the agency, I think (think, mind) that they've got a responsibility to support you and to protect you from abusive workplace behaviour, so I'd have y thought that your actions were by the book.
Regards, C-BLink to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 20
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Well, so far so good. I still have to go into the place where I was bullied, and work my shift. This will not be easy. Unforch I can't drink the medicinal organic cider until Tuesday evening, but I have some medicinal chocolate waiting for me when I get home.
Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 21
Posted by Isabel Archer (U13716168) on Monday, 30th January 2012
But Kate, remember they can't hurt you now. You are leaving them behind. Hold your head high and don't be drawn in.
Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 22
Posted by Lili Bolero and the band played on (U10534540) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Well done, Kate, for taking some action. Hope that stops any further incidents for you.
Just keep remembering the mantra: I will not be treated badly by anyone.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 23
Posted by kk forever in the cyber atlantis of mustardland (U4670994) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Just keep remembering the mantra: ... Ìý
When I get stuck, and my head is liable to do the bullies work for them, I use that line from Dirty Dancing:
"Nobody puts Baby in a corner!"
It reminds me that I'm as good as them, in their own way, and as good as others they haven't even thought of ... and I then feel quite empowered (and always always (sic) remembering that it's not /me/ who's demonstrating /my/ less attractive qualities in public). Hopefully, it stops me sinking into victim mode.
Not for nothing have I been disliked, by some, on and off, for most of my life ... and cherished, and loved, by people whose opinions I value, respect and admire.
Has anyone mentioned passive aggression yet? I suspect that bullying manifests when a passive aggressive individual can no longer keep their aggression as passive as etiquette requires.
Kate, if you feel you've really had enough of them, and their negativity, you might explain to the agency that there are people with whom your personality doesn't seem to mesh and then request another placement when something becomes available ... agency staff do understand political correctness and are more than capable of appreciating coded meanings (I don't think you can use this gambit more than once though, for obvious reasons).
Best thoughts to you ;~)Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 24
Posted by Constance (U14594138) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Kate - Sorry you are having work problems.
I think that we forget we are basically animals - no disrespect intended, but basically that's what we are.
I find that if you project the right body language and believe that as a person you have as much worth, if not more, as everyone else you are less likely to be a victim.
I was brought up to be polite and considerate, but stand up for what is right and what I believe in.
I have had it said to me a few times that 'I wouldn't want to pick a fight with you Constance', Not because I'm aggressive, but I think my body language gives out a message that I can't and won't be bullied. I hate confrontations, but refuse to believe I'm a doormat. It is possible to be caring towards others and yet be strong yourself.
A few years ago a colleague was in tears in the toilets and we had a chat. I said to her what I've typed above and said that although others in her office were perhaps cleverer, certainly on better grades and better qualified, it didn't mean she was worthless as a person. And she had a right to be respected, but she had to earn it. It is quite possible to say No and not be treated as a second/third class citizen. Quite a while later she caught me and thanked me as it had given her the courage not to be a doormat.
My only experience of being on the receiving end, failed because I decided to take a colleague into a meeting that I thought was going to be a verbal attack on me. I didn't ask if she could come in, just said she was there to help me remember what the conversation had been about. The two male senior staff members didn't know what to say and the meeting went ahead. Their faces were a picture though!
I too have worked for an agency and was sent one day to data input. I didn't like the company, nor the way I was treated (I was in my 50s and being treated like a teenager), so I rang the agency and said I would finish the day, but wasn't going back and was happy to tell them that. The agency preferred to tell the company themselves. I think they feared I might have been a bit forceful in my comments.
I think the advice to say Ouch that hurt is a good one and if you think your body language is saying Victim then ensure you stand gently tall, shoulders back and chin at least parallel with the floor and look people in the eye. None of this is confrontational, but will give a subliminal message that you are NOT a victim. You do not have to apologise for being you - you have a worth and it is higher than any bully!
Good LuckLink to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 25
Posted by stolenkisses (U6230663) on Monday, 30th January 2012
This is a fascinating thread and is attempting to analyse a problem I have often reflected on. All of my children have been bullied at one point or another in their lives and different strategies have helped. I don't know that strategies are transferable between people though. I have also often wondered why I have never been seriously bullied, despite the fact t hat I would have thought myself an ideal victim, quiet, quite nervous and inwardly quite fragile as described above. I can recall one or two isolated attempts, but that's all they were, and I suppose most people experience that.
One of my sons is an interesting case study. He works in an environment where almost by definition bullies can thrive. He has a quiet co-operative temperament and while getting upset about things that are said and done is unwilling to stick his head above the parapet and complain. Then he seems to hit a point where a switch flips in his head and he's had enough. He doesn't get upset or angry (as I would) but suddenly he won't be pushed any further and sets this out calmly. It must be something in his body language, because everyone immediately backs off and assures him he must have misunderstood (!) and things are fine after that. I have never met anyone else like this, and he doesn't understand himself where the quiet strength suddenly comes from (I have asked him). He's unlike anyone else in the family - I will fight back if I have to but it leaves me upset and literally trembling. If we could bottle his temperament we could make our fortune. Not much help to Kate, I know.
I agree with all those above who say that those with the bullying temperament will try their techniques on everyone, and only pursue those that give the 'fear' reaction. I also agree that in most cases they don't know they are doing it. Ultimately I suspect they are using survival techniques that work for them to make their world safer for them - I have a cat that does something similar. They also usually end up with a number of people on their side because it is a kind of mutual protection arrangement.
I read somewhere that the children most likely to be bullied are those brought up in middle-class liberal households, where relationships are built on mutual respect and co-operation. These children are not ready for the harsh realities of the 'each for himself'' environment of the playground and later the workplace. They simply can't understand why other children don't have the same attitude as themselves, so can be taken advantage of.
I also think that extraverts are more vulnerable. As I understand it, these are fundamentally people who get their validation from others, and so take other people's opinions and disapproval much harder than we introverts. I have concluded that much of my immunity to date arises from the fact that I tend to live in my own bubble, so to speak, and often genuinely don't realise that there are barbs being directed at me. Hence the bully does not get the expected reaction and looks elsewhere. It might help that I was brought up by a bully (my father) and learned at an early age to screen it out.
The best defence against a bully is not to care, and certainly not to run away from the situation. But I don't think you can fake this - you can pretend not to care but they will see through it. I don't think there is any special skill or credit attaching to this - you are either made this way or you are not imo.
I think there is scope for a lot more serious research into this phenomenon, but perhaps the bullies tend to be more successful and are not really interested in knowing why people are bullied and how to prevent it.
skLink to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 26
Posted by Bearhug (U2258283) on Monday, 30th January 2012
The best defence against a bully is not to care, and certainly not to run away from the situation. But I don't think you can fake this - you can pretend not to care but they will see through it. I don't think there is any special skill or credit attaching to this - you are either made this way or you are not imo.
Ìý
While I agree with the first part of this, I'm not sure about the latter part. I think people learn in early childhood how to react to certain types of behaviour, and it's very difficult to break those patterns, but it can be done.
I have worked with a couple of bullying managers over the years, but they've never tried it on with me. I guess it is something to do with the way I project myself - which is partly because of the way I was brought up. Maybe it's also because I volunteer feedback, and let them know when I think things are going wrong - and one of them last year, I had quite some disagreement about how he was going about managing change and not communicating it, and went to his manager about it.
It was very interesting the way the bullying one then reacted, having a go at my manager (who's in between the two of us), telling him he wasn't managing me properly, but refusing to talk to me directly, because he didn't know what to say to me. (He had to in the end, as I arranged a meeting between the three of us to discuss it openly.) I think my manager ought to stand up to him more, but they've been working together for over 10 years, and I think they're stuck in a communication rut, the way they relate to each other. I can't believe he's happy being treated that way all the time.
I don't know what the bullying one thinks about me at the moment, but I know my opinion of him is pretty low, after seeing how he handled it all, and I think a lot of his behaviour comes out of insecurity - which I think is why a lot of bullies behave as they do. And i don't think he really is fully aware of how he comes over - he just thinks he's being a strong manager, and doesn't have the empathy to see how it comes over, and doesn't see that there could be other ways of handling difficult situations.
One thing that makes it easier for me is realising it's not personal at all - they can be like that with everyone. It's still tiresome, and something that has to be dealt with, but it's their personality defect, not mine.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 27
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Monday, 30th January 2012
There won't be any more incidents as I will not be going to that place of work again. It may limit me a bit but I am sure I will manage.
I saw one of the bullies going in as I arrived. I felt like a kid who doesn't want to go to school (and that was me, so maybe I was bullied and I have buried the fact). I sat in the car for ten minutes until I saw a person I knew going in so I could go in with her. Crikey Moses.
Anyway the shift was fine and I did not have to say that I wasn't going to work with Bully, as we were put in different sections.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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Message 28
Posted by Kate McLaren olim DD olim LilacC (U14947214) on Monday, 30th January 2012
Ultimately I suspect they are using survival techniques that work for them to make their world safer for them - I have a cat that does something similar. They also usually end up with a number of people on their side because it is a kind of mutual protection arrangement.Ìý
That's spot on.
My problem was that it was not just nastiness aimed at me, which I could have shrugged off. It was putting vulnerable people in danger and making a difficult and sometimes stressful job impossible. However, that's that done with and we will never meet again except by chance and in different circumstances.Link to this forum: What makes a person a target for bullies?
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