Messageboard
The Village Hall permalink
May Book of the Month
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Monday, 21st May 2012
‘Catch 22’ by Joseph Heller
Heller started writing this novel in 1953 and finally finished it eight years later. 2011 marked the 50th anniversary of its publication. It came out to mixed reviews in the USA, but when it came out in paperback the following year (1962) it caught the imagination of many baby-boomers, who identified with the novel’s anti-war sentiments (with the ongoing Vietnam war as a backdrop). Since then, it has sold millions of copies and has never been out of print. The title entered into the English language as a buzzword for a dilemma with no clear solution. The film, directed by Mike Nichols and starring Alan Arkin, Jon Voight and Orson Welles, was released in 1970.
There are some fifty characters in the novel but the novel revolves around Captain John Yossarian, a 28-year-old bombadier in the US Army Air Corps stationed on a small island of Pianosa off the Italian mainland during World War II. The other significant characters are friends and fellows of Yossarian (Aarfy, the chaplain, Doc Daneeka, Milo, Nately), his superior officers (Cathcart, Scheisskopf) and Snowden – a young member of Yossarian’s flight who is mortally wounded during a mission. The bewildering array of other characters include Orr, a pilot who is considered even crazier than Yossarian, but who manages finally to escape the war, ‘the soldier in white’ (in the hospital, totally encased in bandages) and the dead man in the tent.
The absurdity and black comedy of the book gradually give way to a darker and more menacing style of writing, culminating in a horrendous Kafkaiësque description of a bombed-out Rome.
Heller himself flew 60 missions, from age 19, as a bombadier (mainly ‘milk runs’ – uneventful combat missions). After the war, he obtained an M.A. in English, then spent a year at Oxford as a Fulbright scholar (1950-51?). The Goon Show (originally entitled ‘Crazy People’) started in 1951, and it is tempting to wonder if Heller was aware of it. He read widely (there are many literary references in Catch-22) and is known to have been influenced by The Good Soldier Švejk, (1912) by the Czech writer Jaroslav Hašek – an unfinished collection of farcical incidents about a soldier in WWI and a satire on the ineptitude of authority figures.
I first read this in 1967 (yes, I was one of those students for whom this was a cult novel), and remember shrieking with laughter at the absurd humour. Judging by my well-worn copy, I re-read it several times. I wondered how what my reaction would be on re-reading the novel after so many decades. Has it stood the test of time? Yes, definitely, for me. I had forgotten just how many crazy characters there were, and I thoroughly enjoyed ‘meeting’ them again. Since then of course, we have had ‘Oh What a Lovely War’ (which came out about the same time as Catch-22), Monty Python, Black Adder . I was more aware this time of the underlying darkness of the novel. I was especially impressed with the circular style of writing (coming back to events from a slightly different perspective, through the eyes of different characters) which is like a very slow crescendo (the flash-backs to the injured Snowden, for example).
Sorry, this is all sounding a bit garbled, to me
I look forward to hearing other people’s opinions of this book.
**
For general information about the Book of the Month Club, links to previous discussions, or if you would like to introduce a book in July or from September, please go to this thread : -
Message 2
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 21st May 2012
Thank you for choosing "Catch 22", Bette. I remember being blown away by it when I read it as a teenager. It didn't occur to me at the time to wonder what those who'd actually oaught in wars themselves, whether WWII, Korea or Vietnam, made of it though. I am guessing a lot would depend on the age of those reading it; don't think my father, who fought in WWII, liked it much.
Confession time: I haven't been able to read it again for this thread as I've had the Worst Flu Ever and can't concentrate much on anything.
However, I think it says a lot that I do remember it quite well from last reading (about 5 years ago), and the palpable anger and despair, knitted in twith the black humour. As well as Yossarian and Cathcart (or it might have been Scheisskopf - what a name), I remember particularly the "soldier in white" and the dead man in the tent (though I might be conflating them a bit now).
You mention the likely influence of Jaroslav Hasek on Heller, Oh "What a Lovely War" coming out at about the same time, and then Monty Python and Blackadder later, which I guess might well ahave been influenced by Catch 22.
I was also thinking about the film and series MASH - oh, gosh, and I've just seen these were based on a book. "MASH, a novel about three army doctors", by Richad Hooker. The film came out in 1970 but can't find out when the book was written; probably after Catch-22?
I'll be back later when I've read the book again.
Rusty -
Message 3
Posted by Hesperus (U14543047) on Monday, 21st May 2012
Bette - like you and Rusters I first read it in the 1960s and have not read it since though my memories of some of the characters is very vivid - particularly Major Major for some reason.
I am in the process of searching for my old copy - I know its there somewhere and will come back if I manage to find and read it.
How many times since it was published has the phrse 'catch 22' been used? I am still hearing it and using it. -
Message 4
Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Monday, 21st May 2012
We must be the kind of reader for whom this book was written! I too remember being gripped, appalled and entertained to the point of laughing (and raging) out loud when I first read it as a teenager. I hadn't read it again for many years and I read a lot of it this time on long train journeys, but I was delighted to find that it had lost none of its power to shock and amuse. I'm not sure what my fellow passengers thought when I guffawed in their faces.
My only slight negative feeling this time was that it felt a bit too long. At about the half way stage you did wonder how on earth this could be maintained and what direction it was going in. I also tired of the paradoxes that Heller throws in with too great a regularity for my taste (Catch 22 should have been enough, but we just get too many of them - it all seems rather arch.)
But I did love the scenes involving the hapless chaplain; funny and excruciating in turns - he is given a plum tomato by Colonel Cathcart, but the whole incident is turned on its head as he is accused of stealing it. He seems constantly to be in this world where events and people conspire against him (his assistant, Whitcomb, is deliberately undermining everything he says and does). And chapter 19 where the colonel is discussing religion with him is very funny indeed.
And I've just remembered another highlight of my re-reading: chapter 21 in which General Dreedle is faced with an outbreak of groaning among the men, culminating in his ordering Major Danby to be taken outside and shot for saying "Ooooh."
Such a well-written book is never going to be dull for long (though I have to say I found the Milo Minderbender episodes a bit tedious and, and this is saying a lot given what you find yourself accepting as you read, implausible.)
I have tried other books by Joseph Heller over the years, but that original spark seems to have died and none of them caught the imagination as much as Catch 22.
Great choice, Bette, and thanks for giving us the chance to live through it all again.
Herb -
Message 5
Posted by PinaGrigio (U11141735) on Monday, 21st May 2012
Bette, great choice of book and one of my favourites. I read it first in the late 80s as a student and found it absolutely hilarious and I do think it's stood the test of time. I don't even think it matters which war they're all involved with, as the characters and situations are timeless and could crop up in any conflict. As said upthread, it's v much in the same vein as other satires on military life where the hero is beset by idiocies and idiots, but I found the characters in Catch-22 much more sympathetic, for some reason (even Milo!). The flashback scenes to Snowden are heartbreaking, and then you set that against Major Major being out when in, and Yossarian's acting as censor, and the total absurdity of the situation they're in just comes through.
Oh, and in case anyone might think it's not true to life, I think my favourite Army acronym ever is NEWD. This stands for 'Night Exercise Without Dark' ie a night exercise carried out in the daytime. You really cannot make it up....
I would also agree that none of Heller's other books are a patch on this. I seem to remember trying a sequel to Catch-22 by him at some point many years later and not enjoying it at all. -
Message 6
Posted by TS-Garp (U3557523) on Monday, 21st May 2012
I read Catch-22 during my A levels and I found I had great difficulty in putting it down. It was 3,00am before I decided I needed to sleep and therefore had to put the book down. I remember talking about it with my history teacher and we both loved it.
I read it again years later and was enthralled once more. I've read almost everthing Heller wrote including his play 'We Bombed In New Haven'. They're good but cannot match Catch-22.
The scene where McWatt realises he's killed Kid Sampson and dives into the sea is pure magic in its tragedy.
Alternately heartbreakingly sad and side-splittingly funny, this book is a true great. -
Message 7
Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Monday, 21st May 2012
I'd agree with all that. I had also meant to add previously that when the chaplain discovers that he can "sin" and feel good about it (by inventing his "Wisconsin shingles" in chapter 34), he "had mastered in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization ..." This seems to me a tremendous insight: the ability to "turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philananthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice."
I think this particular passage deserves serious consideration by us all in the way we deal with the world. It is an excellent example of the novel's power to condense moral/ethical dilemmas into succinct phrases. As I said before, the sometimes sly paradoxical apothegms may be tiresome, but in this case I think they work very effectively. This passage certainly gave me serious pause for thought.
"protective rationalization" covers an awful lot of sins. -
Message 8
Posted by blimbles (U2522058) on Monday, 21st May 2012
Oh dear...I am curerntly in a small minority. I'm struggling through C22, nowhere near half way through and finding it hard going. I'm not laughing out loud as so many people do - inc my OH who can't understand what my problem is. Like Herb, I am finding the constant paradoxes a bit tiresome. It's like the same joke over and over.
However, reading what Bette and others have said, I think I need to persevere and keep going. I DO understand what the book is trying to say. I also think that although I have never been involved in the madness of war, that many of the personality types are alive and well and working in companies...poor managers are everywhere.
Coincidentally, OH switched the tele on tonight and the film of Catch 22 was on.
I'll see how I go on and come back...
b -
Message 9
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Monday, 21st May 2012
Well, tbh blimbles I took far longer to read the book this time round. When I first read it, I couldn't put it down. I do agree with Herb's comment upthread about the length, and the repetition of the paradoxes. Maybe it is something to do with age, but I don't seem to have the concentration in reading that I had when I was young(er), or maybe I lack patience or stamina (not many books of around 500 pages grab my full attention these days).
This is the kind of book that, having read it once, once can pick it up and just re-read a chapter, or two (and savour certain passages, as Herb has just pointed out). I think I must have done that, as one of my most vivid memories of the book was Yossarian editing the letters - but that turned out to be far less of a storyline than it was in my head.
As for the film, I remember crying hysterically with laughter in the cinema but it also captured the build-up of anxiety and dread re Snowden injured in the back of the plane. I had a look at a couple of youtube excerpts of the film last week, and they /seemed/ to capture the spirit of the book. Did your OH enjoy the film?
This time round, I was rather struck by the sexism which seemed to date the book a little - though the tone seemed to change towards the end of the book, with Yossarian trying to save the 'kid sister', then his horror at the rape and murder of the innocent Michaela. -
Message 10
Posted by blimbles (U2522058) on Tuesday, 29th May 2012
Right! I have now finished C22....phew. Well, I understand why it is an influential and highly respected book. I can't say I have enjoyed it though....I need to think about why I have such a different reaction to others.
I identify with the anger that pelple feel reading it though. I was upset and appalled at the chapter where Milo bombs his own side. Also I could totally imagine the rage that Yossarian had with Aarfy out on missions. And as for the rape and murder of Michaela - well one wonders how much of that was based on truth.
I agree, Bette, the sexism is shocking, but I suppose it is set in the 1940s so the casual using of women was normal - esp in war.
Lots in there to reflect on, I do think it could have benefited from a tyrannical editor though! Notable that the Kindle edition I had had an introduction by Howard Jacobsen - a writer with long windedness (IMHO, having flogged my way through The Finkler Question last year....). I tried reading the intro, but gave up and skipped to the book...might go back and try again now I have read the book.
I can't remember where I heard it (think it was on R4 last year last year), but I think the Heller rates "Something Happened" as his best book. I might give that a go at some point. I did read Good As Gold many years ago and enjoyed it.
Thanks for suggesting this book, Bette.
b -
Message 11
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Tuesday, 29th May 2012
Thanks for your comments, blimbles, and glad you appeared to have appreciated the book even if you didn't enjoy it that much.
It is interesting question about the editing (and length). I just didn't have any problem with that when I first read it, teenager in late 60s. I am left wondering (rather repetition of what I said up-thread) what has changed over the decades. Has the book dated, or is it /me/ that has changed my reading habits? When I first read C22, it was just so fresh and exhilarating to read. Now, I really enjoyed re-reading it this time, but in the meantime we have had become so accustomed (and treated to) absurd and black humour, that I suspect that is why the repetition seems rather overdone now. Maybe. -
Message 12
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Tuesday, 29th May 2012
PS, I am a little bit miffed that my 1967 edition was in OH's* backpack which was stolen in Brussels last week. I had a rather nostalgic attachment to it
* He was (re)reading it as a result of having it lying around the house due to this thread. -
Message 13
Posted by Hesperus (U14543047) on Tuesday, 29th May 2012
Bette - It sounds like mine. Corgi paperback - five shillings with a black and red cover? I finally tracked mine down in an upstairs loo lurking between'Locke's 'On Civil Government' and 'The Restaurant at the end of the Universe' All of them very dusty. Have got rid of the dust and settling down to re-read after having finished 'Salmon Fishing in the Yemen' (for reading group)
Will come back with my thoughts - if I have any worth reporting. -
Message 14
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Tuesday, 29th May 2012
No, actually. It was a red-fabric hardback copy. It only had the text: No commentary whatsoever. Apart from the memories, I rather liked it because it just opened flat at any page I might wish to read: Rather a sign of how much I read it all that time ago, or else they just made books differently in them days!
I haven't yet started SFitY, so no opinion yet. I took Kipling's short stories on trip to Antwerp, but didn't have time to even open it! I did, however, start 'The Woman in Black' on the return journey -
Message 15
Posted by blimbles (U2522058) on Wednesday, 30th May 2012
What a coincidence! I have just started Salmon Fishing in the Yemen, having saved it till after C22. It feels very light and fluffy in comparison...
b -
Message 16
Posted by Hesperus (U14543047) on Wednesday, 30th May 2012
Bette - a harddback must have been expensive back then - commiserations. My pb has pages as brittle as royal icing and the colour of strong tea. I am handling it very carefully.
Read SfitY for the second time and it did not improve of re-reading. The poor characterisation became increasingly irritating.
But - having seen recently the film of the book and the film of 'The woman in Black' have to say that the films are not as good as the books. Why oh why do they have to keep changing the endings. Reaches for sick-bag. -
Message 17
Posted by Hesperus (U14543047) on Wednesday, 30th May 2012
Blimbles - I know what you mean about SF - but I had to work quite hard on the first reading to sort out who was what, where, why. As I said to Bette - second time round the faults were starting to show.
About this Board
Welcome to the Archers Messageboard.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
This messageboard is now closed.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Ö÷²¥´óÐã iD
Ö÷²¥´óÐã navigation
Ö÷²¥´óÐã links
Ö÷²¥´óÐã © 2014 The Ö÷²¥´óÐã is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.