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September book of the Month
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Friday, 21st September 2012
'Down and Out in Paris and London' by George Orwell.
Published nearly 80 years ago, in 1933, this was Orwell's first published book, at the age of 30. It is based on his own experiences of living in poverty, that he deliberately sought out, in 1927 and 1928. The book is in two distinct parts, though the chapters (and story) run sequentially. The first part describes living on the breadline in Paris, and ultimately working as a 'plongeur' (dishwasher) in a prestigious hotel. The second part describes his life on arrival back in England, as a tramp in the area of London. In actual fact, Orwell had support from his parents and other relatives, and seemed to lead two lives - the one, respectable, middle-class, the other as the journalist/socialist seeking out the reality of poverty. He created his pen-name George Orwell for this book so that his parents would not be embarrassed by reading about the low-life he had been leading.
The latter part of the book was written first (entitled 'The Spike'), and I do feel that both parts were written separately and at different times. The first part seemed more 'colourful' to me, and the latter part seemed progressively more journalistic and a political statement (reminded me of Mayhew's 'London Labour and the London Poor', in fact).
I first read this some 35 years ago (according to my yellowing, battered, copy), and it has always stayed in my mind, so I was happy to have an excuse to read it again, all these years later.
First of all, it was sheer pleasure to read. The style is so clear, and it is so beautifully written, the reading becomes effortless.
I was struck by how much things have changed over the intervening decades. The endless smoking, pawn-shops, references to Jews - seemed much more distant than they did when I read it in the 70s - more as if it was tail-end of 19th century, rather than well into first half of 20th century.
I hope other people enjoyed the book as much as I did. -
Message 2
Posted by blimbles (U2522058) on Friday, 21st September 2012
Ooh ooh, Bette, I have been itching to "talk" about this book!
First of all, thanks for introducing it. I'd never have read it if it wasn't for this book club. It's one of those books I always thought I /should/ read but never got round to it and thought it might be incredibly "worthy" and rather boring. Neither of which turned out to be true...
I thoroughly enjoyed it, found it fascinating and easy to read.
Like you, I rather more enjoyed the Paris bit. More colour and life in the description. However, parts of the London section were very absorbing too, particularly when Orwell is describing the lame screever's life and his attitude to life.
Although Orwell could have fallen back on his parents while he was in Paris or London, he did keep on doggedly, stryggling along. of course this was all good material for the book, but he could have probabaly got enough in a couple of weeks, but chose to stick it out. It made me think of that song by Pulp "Common People" where there is a line that says:-
"But still you'll never get it right,
cos when you're laid in bed at night,
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you call your Dad he could stop it all."
And Orwell could "stop it all", but managed to be able to have this experience and use it to bring to the attention of more people exactly what the life of a tramp is. I hadn't realised that they actually had to tramp from place to place because they couldn't have more than one night anywhere. At the end he has some good ideas about how to make things better.
As to the writing, I agree that there are some sweeping views that are a bit startling these days (about Jews and some nationalities), but Orwell was writing in another time and this was all pre the Nazi holocaust.
Rather hair raising accounts of bed bugs etc, and the way people just put up with it. Also the fact that the life of a plongeur was so hard that it would be impossible to have a wife / husband or family and thus one was destined to spend ones life at the bottom of the pile. Plus that the only way of escape was by getting blind drunk once a week.
I always try to treat homeless people with some respect, but this book has made me think about this a bit more. Last night in Manchester, there was a guy sitting on the floor begging and I saw people being in general really kind. One person went into a shop and bought him a sandwich, and lots of others gave money. I don't know what it says in the 21st century that there are people on the streets still. perhaps there will always be some, but I don't think anyone would choose this life long term unless thry were leaving something really far far worse.
And also, juxtaposing the 1920s with 2012, there is a brand spanking new pawn shop opened in Manchester on one of the swankiest streets, stuffed with really expensive jewellery and Rolexs etc. Hmmm. Although it's sad that people are having to give up treasured possessions, I'd like to think that pawning ones clothes would never be necessary these days.
Interested to hear what others have made of this book. I read it on my Kindle, but would be tempted to get a hard copy as I think it is one of those books that should be kept and treasured.
b -
Message 3
Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Sunday, 23rd September 2012
Yet again, I'm so pleased that the Book Club has given me the chance (or the impetus) to read a book that I'd never got around to. Though I have to say that I found this really hard going for the first fifty pages or so, until I succumbed to the Orwell style. But I'm glad I persisted - the chapters which generalise his experiences are very powerful (chapters 22, 32, 36 & 37 in particular.)
Rather curiously, I was reading the last few chapters of this book as Matthew Paris was discussing Orwell on the Radio 4 programme "Great Lives," and I was very struck by something he (MP) said: "I don't think he's a liar but I don't quite trust him." And I have to say I sensed that Orwell always had in the background something that protected him from the dire and abject poverty he describes.
The language that Orwell uses struck me as very odd in places, almost as if English were a foreign language to him: "veritable hops" (chapter 24) or the rather strange, presumably translated, letter in chapter 6, full of thees and thous. And his apparent transcription of everyday speech: "don't get on the argue!" in chapter 25. The idea of being able to "talk consecutively" (chapter 18) also struck me as being rather odd.
Some phrases, however, were very powerful; the idea of the poor person as being "only a belly with a few accessory organs" (chapter 3) is very chilling.
Orwell's narrative, or story-telling, seems very weak; "among his experiences" (in chapter 12) is not atypical, but is very poor in trying to capture or describe the experience of others.
In addition to the disparaging references to Jews and others noted above, I was also struck by what seems to me an almost misogynistic attitude; women are idealised or compartmentalised - for instance in chapter 36 we are told that "any presentable woman can, in the last resort, attach herself to some man." It seems to be an extremely stereotypical view of the sexes.
The world of the "spikes" and indeed of the "casual ward" has long since passed, but I wonder if the "stink of charity" which Orwell identifies with the Salvation Army (in chapter 29) has entirely gone.
In the blurb on the back of my 1973 copy of this book (which I'd never read before now!) there is a quote from J.B. Priestley saying that this is "uncommonly good reading" - I have to agree,and I'm pleased to have made its acquaintance. -
Message 4
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 24th September 2012
Like a fair few people, I suspect, I'd only ever read Orwell's 'Nineteen Eighty-Four" and "Animal Farm", so I'm very glad you chose "Down and Out........" to discuss, Bette.
I think I'd vaguely thought the book would be comparing how people live in exreme poverty in Paris and in London, but they were very different, so no direct comparisons could be made.
The people in Paris among whom Orwell lived were almost at the bottom of the heap, but they mostly seemed to be scrabbling for work, and somehow making do - or they would have if they hadn't been so chronically malnourished. Of course, many of them came from other parts of Europe (and further afield - can't remember), so perhaps one could argue that they had made a positive effort to come to Paris in search of work and a better life.
The tramps in London were a more homogenous group and I kept thinking of them all as "old lags", though of course that wasn't necessarily so.
I kept wondering why there didn't seem to be a hmmm community (?) of tramps in Paris? Did they not exist in any great numbers, or was Orwell not interested in their stories?
As far as the tramps in London were concerned, did the fact that there was relatively little casual work there (as opposed to Paris) that there was nothing much they could do? I don't think it can have been that particularly, though: the tramps seemed to have a very different mindset; as Orwell himself said, too, the contempt in which people held tramps must have been an extra blow to any vestige of self-respect they might have had.
Incidentally, I understand that even now people living on the streets usually are not permitted to spend more than a night or two in any one month in the same refuge (presumably depends on the rules of those running the refuge though).
One thing that Orwell doesn't make much of is the body odour of both his Paris and his London companions. It was uppermost in my mind, though - never mind the bedbugs, I would hate even more to be constantly grubby and forced to wear the same clothes day in and day out for weeks/months at a time.
Anyway, I found it a very thought-provoking book, if rather depressing when I read about what life is like here even now for the dispossessed.
Rusty -
Message 5
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Monday, 24th September 2012
I've just listened to the Great Lives programme featuring George Orwell, Herb, and I too was struck by Matthew Paris saying he didn't quite trust Orwell.
I remember seeing a TV documentary following Matthew Paris, when he was a young MP, living for a while (two weeks, a month?) on the dole. I thought then that it was a fairly pointless exercise on many levels, to be honest, so I was wryly amused at him saying this now.
This is the link to the Radio 4 programme:
Rusty -
Message 6
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Thursday, 27th September 2012
All very interesting comments, and I'm glad that you all enjoyed reading this book (or would 'appreciated' be better?).
Blimbles, I was also aware of the prevalence of pawn shops, and how I just don't see them around these days, though they were still very much around in my youth (but haven't been in the UK for decades, so can't tell what the situation is now). Yes, the book certainly brought back to me the hopelessness that people can find themselves in, and how hard it must be to be able to climb out of the hole and to begin to get back a decent life, or livelihood.
Herb, and Rusty - I have still to listen to the R4 programme (thanks for the link), but the comment of 'don't fully trust him' rings true. I spent quite a time reading up the Wiki article on Orwell (it was very lengthy!) and he certainly appears to have been a very interesting, and complicated, person. Apparently, he didn't fit in with the working-class people he tried to mix in with, despite what one might believe from his writing.
All-in-all, definitely 'a classic' for me, though. It is a book that, having read, one could open at any page and read a chapter of two for the sheer pleasure. -
Message 7
Posted by blimbles (U2522058) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
The book club is very queit this month isn't it?
I agree about the not fully trusting Orwell...but he is a writer - are not they all a little untrustworthy? I mean, why let the strict order of something or some detail get in the way of a good story.
It is a classic, Bette, that is for sure.
I am going to try The road to Wigan Pier at some point - Wigan being fairly local to me so it would be good to get a view of what it was like back then.
b -
Message 8
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
Just been thinking of this book again. Like you, Herb, I was particularly struck by his almost throwaway line about any presentable woman can, in the last resort, attach herself to some man. In many ways, he seemed ahead of his time, but in others exhhibited the steriotypical views of the day.
J.B. Priestley - now there's a writer who has always struck me as a very decent, humane sort, if a trifle sentimental.
Bette (6), there might not be nearly as many pawnshops around as there were then (and still seem to be in the US - well, in New York, if Law & Order cop series is to be believed), but I've seen so many adverts crop up offering to buy gold recently; there's even a stand in our local shopping arcade every Saturday.
blimbles (7), Yes, I was just thinking I must get a copy of The Road to Wigan Pier, too. Oddly enough, Orwell and both books have had mentions in DTA recently, in discussions about Em and Ed's poverty, and some posters' thoughts about their plight/fecklessness.
Apparently, the Phoenix Mayor was challenged recently to live on a food stamp budget for a week,to mark Hunger Awareness Month.. He accepted the challenge and kept a diary. Just by Day 4 he noted that he was tired and finding it hard to focus. Bearing mind he was (presumably) a well-nourished man in good health, still living in a comfortable home with heating/cooling, a comfortable bed, and running water, plus still going to work - and being ferried there no doubt - it really brought it home to me how incredibly debilitating semi-starvation and malnourishment are.
Rusty -
Message 9
Posted by Herb Robert (U14072548) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
It depends what you mean by a pawnshop, but I'd say there are far more around now than there have been for many a year. They may not always call themselves pawnshops (more like "cash converters" or some such), but that is what they are. Sorry, slightly digressive, but an interesting point. Are we becoming more "Orwellian"?
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Message 10
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
Well, I've thought for years that we (the West) were becoming like an an unholy alliance between Orwell and Huxley, with a dash of other authors' dysptopian worlds, e.g., Atwood and J. G. Ballard.
Rusty -
Message 11
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
Orwell and both books have had mentions in DTA recently, in discussions about Em and Ed's poverty, and some posters' thoughts about their plight/fecklessness.Â
Actually, Rusty, I have even contemplated sending a copy to our son - who seems to think that having a year off 'travelling around Ireland' will be 'a good thing' (heaven knows what he thinks he will be living on!). -
Message 12
Posted by Rusters (U11225963) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
I think it would be a most edifying read for your son on many levels, Bette!
Rusty
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Message 13
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Thursday, 4th October 2012
The pawnshop, as depicted in this book (and still around when I was young) - is that still in existence in the UK?
It brings back memories of the film 'The Pawnbroker' (Rod Steiger?) that I watched once, but couldn't bear to again even though it is a brilliant film.
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