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"Moon Gardening"
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Bainy (U839029) on Thursday, 10th August 2006
Mate at work told me today he seen a programme about gardening by phases of the moon.He reckons some crops grow far better when they are planted according to the phases.Anybody know about this?
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Message 2
Posted by Bainy (U839029) on Thursday, 10th August 2006
Dont need to reply to this post as I have just checked out a web-site describing all I need to know--.
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Message 3
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Friday, 11th August 2006
Go on then. Share the address! I do this occasionaly and it works for me. I just have too many distractions at the mo to do it thoroughly. Must try harder next year.
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Message 4
Posted by Toadspawn (U2334298) on Friday, 11th August 2006
If it was the Big Dig, there were two people using this technique and both said it worked very well.
If you have access to a reputable source of information please share it because it was about the only part of the whole programme that was of interest and I would like to investigate its potential. -
Message 5
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Friday, 11th August 2006
Hi Toadspawn - last year I had a calendar which told me precisely what to do - and when not to do - for each day of the year. This year I haven't been able to find one but, having grasped the basic principles, found this helpful but you do have to work it out for yourself quite a bit.
If anyone knows of a lunar gardening calendar which identifies fruit days, flower days, leaf days and root days as well as no-no days I'd be very pleased if you would tell me how to get one for 2007. -
Message 6
Posted by Toadspawn (U2334298) on Friday, 11th August 2006
Obelixx
Thanks, the chart does look a bit complicated, at this stage all I want is an 'idiots guide' because the two people were very enthusiastic. The lady on the London allotments seemed to know what she was doing and followed the guide for sowing days, flower days etc. The guy on the Welsh allotments found much to his surprise that planting his potatoes according to the guidelines really worked.
I will try and do a bit of research and if I come up with anything I will let you know.
I hope the originator of this theme will let us know what he has found. -
Message 7
Posted by Lesley Jay (U2214089) on Saturday, 12th August 2006
If you have a look at the forum at www.growfruitandveg.co.uk there is loads of information on moon gardening. Just put moon gardening into the search facility.
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Message 8
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Saturday, 12th August 2006
Try this link out - looks very interesting
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Message 9
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Saturday, 12th August 2006
Amazing - just found a directory on the moon gardener link that tells me where I can get loads of manure in my area for free.
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Message 10
Posted by Toadspawn (U2334298) on Saturday, 12th August 2006
Lesley Jay and Jlottie
Thanks very much. It looks as though I will have my days/weeks/months/years sorted out but hopefully reading all the information will leave me some time for gardening. -
Message 11
Posted by happyhippy1 (U3875707) on Saturday, 12th August 2006
Is this what you had in mind? Not quite next year's but it might lead you on the right path.
Good luck -
Message 12
Posted by mr naughty corner (U2456974) on Sunday, 13th August 2006
And there was me thinking that horticulture was a science I had to study. What a waste of time! All I had to do was sit in a field with my shoes and socks off in a big circle feeling a lot of earthpower from my earthmother and pass round eggs to sniff with some snakeoil seller telling me all about the moon being made of cheese.
So, I'm converted. Just four questions:
1. Why is it ok for me to dig up my spuds on august the 27th but not the 28th? Will they turn back into a stagecoach?
2.How does the moon cause the ammount of available water held in pore space between soil particles to change?
3. Who's going to pop over to the alpine section at Kew or Edinburgh and tell them that they've got it all wrong?
4. Can we all jump higher on moon days? Is this like Yogic Flying?
Personally speaking, I reckon a good load of organic matter dug properly into an already healthy and productive soil is fine and the head gardener from Kernow is spot in with this. But whether or not his horticultural success is because of some astral projecting moon related hocus pocus surely depends on just how gullible you are. -
Message 13
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Sunday, 13th August 2006
"And there was me thinking that horticulture was a science I had to study. What a waste of time! All I had to do was sit in a field with my shoes and socks off in a big circle feeling a lot of earthpower from my earthmother and pass round eggs to sniff with some snakeoil seller telling me all about the moon being made of cheese."
Oh Mickey I so hate it when someone spoils the last page for me. -
Message 14
Posted by Happimoo (U5288041) on Sunday, 13th August 2006
I believe that Biodynamic might be the name given to the method of gardening in conjunction with the phases of the moon/planets etc. I used to work near a health food shop that sold Biodynamic organic veggies and being a stipler for good flavoured tomatoes, I can vouch that their's were some of the best i've tried from shops selling English grown tomatoes.
As to why the moon effects the water in the soil etc ... i believe that though it's a less understood or necessary process for production than fertilising etc, it is actually quite scientific as it is something to do with gravity, tides and other such effects relating to water and the tides. I had a quick look at the link someone else provided earlier and found this (quote & link below). I don't know what i make of it as i don't know much about it, but i personally wouldn't mock it until I've researched it....
LINK:
(NB: see bottom of page)
QUOTE:
"The moon has gravity.It is felt by planet Earth. As, during the first half of the lunar month, the moon grows from new to full, its gravitational pull upon the ground beneath the gardener's feet increases. As, during the lunar month's second half, the moon dies, its gravitational pull decreases. In response, Earth's water table -- which is beneath Earth's surface no matter where in the world gardeners tend their gardens and farmers farm their land -- is drawn up and then permitted to drop back, exerting increasing and then decreasing upward pressure. This unfailing, monthly phenomenon creates predictable conditions in the garden's soil.
As example: from new moon to full moon, the moisture in Earth's crust moves upwards under pressure from the rising water table. In consequence, an increased amount is made available in the top soil. This benefits the seed sown and the plant inserted at that time. Also, the same upward pressure encourages enhanced moisture absorption by seed and plant. The chances of germination and plant survival are increased. From full moon to the next new moon, the pressure upon root systems exerted by the prevailing moisture reduces as the water table falls. It is the ideal time to prune, because the reduced pressure causes reduced bleeding of cut branches.
Overall, every department of horticulture -- from preparation and feeding through to harvesting, crop storage and general management -- is aided when the moon is worked with, not ignored." -
Message 15
Posted by U4299637 (U4299637) on Monday, 14th August 2006
All I had to do was sit in a field with my shoes and socks off in a big circle feeling a lot of earthpowerÌý
Hey Mikey,
Let's 'link pinks' and make a Caring Circle! I've been stock-piling night soil waiting for 'when the moon is fat in the sky', but the neighbours have started to complain, so I'll have to do some gardening with Doris from up-stairs on the weekend. She always says gardening when she's 'off her [lunar] cycle' just wont feel right for her, but it's one big heap we've got to shift.
She's been practising a Western Chinese raw-food diet for 47 years now, and is only tempted onto a 'conventional diet' by the occasional Scotch Egg that she makes with her husband, Ginger. Quite a dedicated bio-woman.
I'd better get back to the communal garden now, I'm busy collecting 'gifted' windfalls for my fruitarian soul-brother Mark "Sparkle" for his scrumpy and soul-sister Weenie. My solar laptop will cut-out any minute now anyhow...
BOOMSHANKA!
GM aka brian -
Message 16
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Monday, 14th August 2006
Well Brian and Micky looks like you might have killed this thread off
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Message 17
Posted by mr naughty corner (U2456974) on Monday, 14th August 2006
Good.
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Message 18
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Wednesday, 16th August 2006
Not likely. I'm back and have to say the lunar calendar worked for me when I followed it last year and, whilst not having trained as a professional horticulturalist, I am bright enough to have picked up the basic principles of osmosis, photosynthesis, microrhizal fungi and soil preparation and quite a bit more besides.
If using the action of lunar gravity on water tables, plants and soil can help increase successes and, more importantly, focus my limited gardening time on specific tasks to greater effect then I'm all for trying again properly just as soon as I find the info I need. Let Mikeytoon scoff all he wants. My garden is more important than his opinion on this. I should point out that I have been known to agree with him on other threads. -
Message 19
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Wednesday, 16th August 2006
Nice one obelix, my book is ordered and will be with me soon.
The author at Tresillian is very close to where I live but the gardens are by appointment only for groups so I will have to find out how I can join in. I have heard bits over the years and would like to research this. We live by the seasons of the sun and the calender month is ruled by the moon so I will make my own mind up without anyone telling me its a load of **
Can we agree that if we have any posts taking the mickey or any sarcasm that we shall ignore them completey. I think that is the best way don't you? -
Message 20
Posted by mr naughty corner (U2456974) on Wednesday, 16th August 2006
I couldn't agree more. How scientific!
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Message 21
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Wednesday, 16th August 2006
After reading some of the posts I almost hate to do this but I just have to put my scientific hat on and say : NUTS! to all this Lunarticking.
As most of the old wives tales content themselves with planting this and that on a new moon rather than a waxing one etc., I just have to remind people that it doesn't matter whether you can see it in the sky or not - the damn thing is STILL THERE. A big lump of rock about 240,000 miles away.
At that distance it just about manages to swish the waters of the world about a bit but not much else and whatever effect it could have on the growth of plants is far outweighed and totally obscured by other more prominent actions.
Sorry. -
Message 22
Posted by U4299637 (U4299637) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hallo my fellow Fruitarians,
Talking about the scientific side (not a provocation by any means), has anybody information about a bioassay that clearly demonstrates the benefit of lunar cycles for timing of cultural techniques?
I mean, it's not just good enough to say 'well, I think it works better'. Everything that was 'harumphed' in the past, such as endophytic fungi, 'free living' organelles and even plant response to music has been scientifically put to the test and come out as legitimate fact.
This is not because 'it just works', but because it can be reproduced under controlled conditions.
Perhaps someone can enlighten us all and cite the slightly sceptical amongst us something more scientific than 'old Ted's' spuds being harvested ten days earlier, or a website designed to sell you a book.
Who's going to be first to find us a published and peer reviewed paper then?
Boomshanka,
GM -
Message 23
Posted by Pip (U2800217) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
I thought all this was complete and utter bunk until I visited Laverstoke Park's (organic+) open day in July. The meat, fruit and veg was all brilliant, and Jody Schekter's talk about how he got started extremely inspirational. They quite convinced me.
Then I started to look into biodynamics, and IF it works, I reckon it's more because of the way it's practised than the phases of the moon etc. Those people are so devoted, their crops are bound to flourish! To stand stirring a bucket (in the right direction, mind!) for an hour at a stretch - they DESERVE to suceed! -
Message 24
Posted by U4299637 (U4299637) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Well I've visited one of the leading permaculture farms in the world. Ir's run by an Austrian called Sepp 'der Agrar-Rebell' Holzer. Great stuff and very inspirational (growing peaches in the alps), but he wouldn't back anything up with proof that he farm was self-sufficient without the tourism and gift shop income he generated.
These people are great talkers, but what happened if they had to survive without the £££ generated by the lecture circuit, guided tours and non-scientifically proven books?
Just coz I DESERVE something, doesn't mean it's going to happen
GM (Still waiting for something scientific...) -
Message 25
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
I find, all too often, that ideas and methods dismissed as not scientifically proven but that is usually because the scientists haven't been asking the right questions or the question isn't sexy enough to attract funding for research.
I shall manage my garden and especially my veg patch according to the lunar cycle. If the sowings are successful and the crops more bountiful than this year, that will be proof enough for me. -
Message 26
Posted by Pip (U2800217) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
I'm still a sceptic, but I'm going to try out some of these ideas next year in a couple of my beds.
The proof of the veg patch will be in the eating! -
Message 27
Posted by U4299637 (U4299637) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hi Obelixx,
Come on, so you're saying it's too 'alternative' for conventional investigation to be applied to it... I find that a poor excuse!
Nowadays even Bob Flowerdew is 'normal' (apart from his haircut). Didn't people say this about the organic movement, no-dig gardening, integrated pest management... shall I go on? Were they ever 'sexy' subjects twenty years ago?
People said that those things would never take off, as 'conventional' industries would lose out... Well, that never happened did it?
I just want somebody to come up with something scientific. Must I track down a Kew/Wisley dissertation or someone from the HDRA to find out *something* better than 'I think it works' or the Medicine Man giving a stage-show in town...
How about one half of your plot with one technique and the other with the other? That would be better
GM -
Message 28
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
GM
I think that the proof will be in the eating as already said,and if it works brilliant, I am looking forward to reading up on the idea and deciding if I am going to try it out. Obelix has certainly given it a go and it sounds like she is enjoying her gardening, isn't that what its all about.
Did you check the earlier link out, you can ask your scientific questions there. -
Message 29
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hi Gartenmeister - before chemicals gardening happened, everyone gardened and farmed organically. Then we had the chemical revolution and organic became dotty for a few decades. Now it's recognised as being best for tasty crops, healthy consumers and wildlife. In eastern Europe and parts of Italy and France they still garden with the lunar cycle because it gives better results and they can't afford or don't want the modern chemical methods. Some Italian seeds are sold with lunar sowing and planting guides. My farmer neighbours here in central Belgium know about bad moon days without consulting a calendar.
My veggie plot is too small to experiment with two crops of everything so the whole thing will go lunar as soon as I find the info I need. If you have the space, you could try the experiment. -
Message 30
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
A true scientific test for this looney business would be quite difficult to organise in the terms of traditional double blind experiments because the treatment of plants is not just a simple matter of applying solution "A" to some "B" to others and maintaining a control that get neither - as the experimenters would have to be kept out of sight of the moon and calendars - or even daylight if they're good at counting in their heads!
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Message 31
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
I would have thought that the 40 + years that R J Harris has been the gardening at Tresillian using these methods would have been enough for most.
What more do you want blood? -
Message 32
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
In times past - Trial by Combat was often invoked to prove a point but the only thing it proved was - who was good at killing - it did not prove a universal truth.
So no, I do not want blood but I do want absolute proof before I believe anything.
As I have pointed out in posts above - the Moon is a big lump of rock orbiting our bit bigger lump of rock - it does not go anywhere during the various phases seen from the earth because it is only sunlight reflecting from it - so tell me what difference it makes?
When you've done that - tell me why the tides in all the seas carry on regardless to the different shapes the moon might look from down here? -
Message 33
Posted by jeannie (U3839177) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
"So no, I do not want blood but I do want absolute proof before I believe anything"
There is no such thing as absolute proof, it comes down to a method which works for you. -
Message 34
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
I'm absolutely certain that if I stick a lighted match in a bucket of petrol at room temperature, there will be a convincing explosive ignition.
I suggest that this is likely to happen many millions of times without any extraordinary events to the contrary.
I also suggest that this experiment will work for everybody, anywhere. -
Message 35
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Maybe so 1stClass, but it won't help plants grow any better.
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Message 36
Posted by U4299637 (U4299637) on Sunday, 27th August 2006
Hi Obelixx,
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have to disagree about the 'chemical gardening' point you made. Which decades are you talking about? Victorian gardeners used nicotine smokes, caustic soot and ash, metal based sprays, tars and oils... and the list goes on
Okay there were 'naturally occuring' substances, but what are the expert opinions on those now? In Germany they question their 'organic' status. Now think about Pyrethroides and Derris... OK so I'm going off the point now, but I'm still looking forward to finding a good paper about this... plus I disagree with Alan's fighting talk
GM (just about dealing with a French keyboard) -
Message 37
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Sunday, 27th August 2006
Guten arben Gartenmeister, what particular part of my fighting talk do you disagree with then? -
Message 38
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Sunday, 27th August 2006
Hi Gartenmeister - there's plentry of info available if you care to google "lunar+calendar+planting" You will get a wide variety of results from the Ö÷²¥´óÐã GQT programme to New Age sites and others. As yet, the scientific world hasn't had either the initiative or the interest or possibly the funding to do serious studies but on the same basis that very recent research into old herbal remedies is producing startling results for modern drug treatments, the same shift in thinking will eventually come and someone will research the effectiveness of lunar gardening.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there and plenty of logic to it too given the moon's gravitational pull on water and tides. I once came a cross an obstetrician who asked me if the Belgian equivalent of the NCT had been useful. I said "Yes, I made friends and learned about cabbage leaves for mastitis which worked well." He hit the roof and said it was a load of hooey but now they're using an extract from cabbages in new drugs. I'm sure lunar gardening which has been around fro centuries will soon get the conventional seal of approval.
In th emean time, I find,a s I have said before, that just because something isn't scientifically proven doesnt mean it doesn't work. It just means the scientists are not asking the right questions. -
Message 39
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Sunday, 27th August 2006
Obelixx, your message 38.
Cabbage leaves may have all sorts of chemicals in them as do many other plants and no one would deny that the study of them gave rise to the drug industry of today.
But the phases of the Moon are quite, quite different and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see the reason. The Moon is always there whether you can see it or not. Drugs, whether they be in plants or pills are not there until you take them. -
Message 40
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Monday, 28th August 2006
1CA - you are being deliberately obtuse and stubborn. The moon is always there and has always affected water movement on this planet, more so at certain times of its monthly and annual cycles - hence spring tides - and less at others - neep tides. It also affects human moods and behaviour - hence the term "lunatic" - and, before the days of inductions and planned caesarians, the full moon had a significant influence (in terms of percentages) on pregnat women and their waters breaking.
I don't see how it doesn't have an effect on plant growth, given their composition and need for water, or on the availability of water in the fluctuations of the water table. Most science has grown out of early observations of plant, animal, chemical behaviour.
The whole crop rotation system came out of observing that crops do better that way. How many scientists have set out to prove or disprove it? Astronomy grew out of ancient peoples obeserving the stars to work out the solar cycle and hence the best times to plant and harvest. Ditto companion planting which is now known to work because of sympathetic compounds produced by roots or foliage but is still rubbished by many gardeners who have always done things their way and see no need to change.
Cabbages have only come under serious scrutiny in the past decade, since the scientific doctor with the closed mind poo-poohed them.
I therefore suggest, politely, that you stick in your conventional corner and leave us more adventurous ones to experiment and see what works. -
Message 41
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Monday, 28th August 2006
1CA - you are being deliberately obtuse and stubborn. The moon is always there and has always affected water movement on this planet, more so at certain times of its monthly and annual cycles - hence spring tides - and less at others - neep tides. It also affects human moods and behaviour - hence the term "lunatic" - and, before the days of inductions and planned caesarians, the full moon had a significant influence (in terms of percentages) on pregnat women and their waters breaking.
I don't see how it doesn't have an effect on plant growth, given their composition and need for water, or on the availability of water in the fluctuations of the water table. Most science has grown out of early observations of plant, animal, chemical behaviour.
Ìý
Before I go and stand in my corner - let me just have one more go.
The moon is locked in a mutual orbit with us, its track exactly following that of the sun across the sky though at different interval. Except for the increasing and decreasing ratio from one Edd to the next Neep the effect it has on tides will be the same every day whether it has the sun's light shining on it or not.
Therefore the old wive's tales of "lunatics" are just that and nothing more because it the moon's action produced more lunacy - you'd get the same amount in direct paralell with tides in the oceans and as far as I'm aware - you don't.
All that plant yer seeds on a waxing moon is just as daft too as it will have the exact same effect on a moonless night as a full one - or not as I suspect.
Astronomy grew out of people recognising when there was something to observe. I put Moon Garden in the same box as dowsing and curing with crystals. -
Message 42
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Monday, 28th August 2006
Oh yes Obelixx - if every fecund woman's period co-incided with the Moon's phases I'd be right with you.
Most breeding cycles are control by sidereal inputs ( unconscious solar clock )and the only remotely link one I can think off is frogs and toads who are likely triggered by a moonless night provided everything else is right - just because they like it dark - mates are chosen by sound or touch. -
Message 43
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Tuesday, 29th August 2006
1CA - a woman's menstrual cycle is, generally, the same length as the moon's cycle. Also, measurements have shown that the way the moon is facing, ie the amount of solar light it reflects, does have an effect on light levels in wave lengths of interest to plants. Go google.
And dowsing does work for some people who are tuned to it. I suspect from the negative tune and tone of 99% of your posts on these boards that you are tone deaf in more senses than one. -
Message 44
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Wednesday, 30th August 2006
Hi Obelixx, far from agreeing with you assetion that 99% of my posts are negative, I would only qualify it by assuming that they get up your orifactory organ 100% - I doubt that the lovely Rachel or Chris Beardshaw's helicopter share you views.
I like to keep my posts - particularly when in Mustard - on a lighter note but as I am suffused with a scientific bent - it will keep rising to the top when ever I see rant,cant and mysticism.
Dowsing does not "work" for anybody except for those who con the gulible - you'll be asking me if my arthritis hurts more when it rains next when I am 80% water!!!
We have radar systems now that are so sensitive that they can receive data from a stream at 22 billionths of a Watt from outside the orbit of the non-planet Pluto - yet folk like you are prepared to believe that this technology can be out performed by a guy walking around a field with two bent pieces of clothes hanger wire.
I would challenge anything "measured" about light from the moon's phases as it would be a vastly complex business to work out all the cloudy nights and the huge disparity between night and day - the sun's luminosity is so overwhelming.
Some plants are affected by a few seconds of certain wavelengths - enough to make them initiate "short-day blooming." But this has nothing to do with the moon. -
Message 45
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Wednesday, 30th August 2006
How can you, in one virtual breath, tell me of radar technology so sensitive from beyond Pluto and in the next, tell me no-one can measure the various bands of light rays from the next door moon because of cloud etc. Baloney.
And I thought it was hazel and they've been dowsing for eons before the invention of the wire coat hanger. -
Message 46
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Wednesday, 30th August 2006
PS - my olfactory organ is currently suffering with blocked sinuses so nothing's getting up there and I don't take your posts personally.
-
Message 47
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Thursday, 31st August 2006
How can you, in one virtual breath, tell me of radar technology so sensitive from beyond Pluto and in the next, tell me no-one can measure the various bands of light rays from the next door moon because of cloud etc. Baloney.
Ìý
Look Obelix - it's not the scientist that have the problem seeing the moon's light - it's the BLOOMING PLANTS!!! I would have thought my continuation on the theme of short day cultivation should have made it obvious - but hey ho.!
I was told by "one who knows" that is essential to use Hazel for dowsing but it seems no longer to be the case - but they are all still NUTS. -
Message 48
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Thursday, 31st August 2006
But I like NUTS! Much better than boring conventional stuff, and how do you know what a plant can see?
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Message 49
Posted by mr naughty corner (U2456974) on Thursday, 31st August 2006
You know what a plant can "see" by measuring its response to different stimuli. The whole moon thing- i think even the great fraud and charlatan Culpeper threw the idea out when he went whole heartedly for the doctrine of signatures. I understand the idea but i think soil pore space and surface tension are the two main things that affect available water and the moon has no affect at all.
But I have just turned into a hairy great wolf.... -
Message 50
Posted by 1stClassAlan (U2459016) on Thursday, 31st August 2006
Well done Mikey - couldn't put it better myself.
Just been showing one of my student gardeners zylem tension by a pinprick in a blob of black ink - he couldn't believe how quick it is!
We've already been through tin foil covering leaves for light response etc.
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