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Organic Flameguns?

• Message 1. 

  Posted by green-buddha (U11615833) on Friday, 21st August 2009

  On Wednesday's 'Open Gardens' dear old Joe was giving advice on how to remove grass, and he advocated using a flame gun because it was 'organic'. Is it? Apart from the chemical element in the gas cylinder, is something which harms earthworms and other soil organisms organic? Somehow, I feel that it can't be, but I may be wrong (according to my wife I often am).

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Johnfife (U10160312) on Wednesday, 26th August 2009

  This just shows why the 'organic' philosophy is so flawed. Technically it probably is organic because he isn't using modern pesticides or fertilisers, but he is probably using more energy and will certainly be less effective than treating with Roundup. I am amazed by how some organic systems are described as sustainable when they are using more diesel fuel and more plastic than conventional systems and that is before we get on to the import of 'organic' produce from all over the world.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Wednesday, 26th August 2009

  I'm not going to get drawn on the wider debate here, but we use salt (cheap table stuff) to kill grass in paving cracks. I just sprinkle it generously onto wet grass - hey presto - dead grass. It even gave the marestail a bit of a check too.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by eco_gardener (U13955786) on Wednesday, 26th August 2009

  Johnfife
  
  This really is a bit of a no-brainer, but here goes...
  
  I am not aware of flame guns being made from plastic, nor running on diesel, but I would agree that burning gas (which is what most flame guns use) is questionable in terms of fossil fuel use/carbon emissions. This is a technique that's probably best described as on the margins of good organic gardening practice, but it's extremely lazy to suggest that, on the basis of this example alone, the organic approach is "so flawed".
  
  In contrast, unless you have figures to support your assertion that use of a flame gun is "is probably using more energy and will certainly be less effective than treating with Roundup", then I suggest you ponder what we do know...
  
  1. Pesticides, including glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, are made from oil, a finite fossil fuel.
  
  2. The manufacture of garden pesticides uses large amounts of energy - from burning fossil fuels which release carbon dioxide, which is causing global warming and climate change.
  
  3. Garden pesticides are sold in often sizeable containers made from plastic, which is made from oil, and requires energy from the burning of fossil fuels. Those containers need to be dealt with when empty. Some larger quantities of glyphosate weedkiller now come with battery-operated sprayers, requiring even more resources and after-use disposal facilities (for batteries as well as containers).
  
  4. Pesticides of all hues consume even more fossil energy in their transport, marketing and retailing. Unused pesticides require special disposal facilities funded by the local taxpayer.
  
  5. In the specific case of glyphosate/Roundup, there are serious and well documented environmental and ethical concerns over its use. You'll find a good round-up - forgive the pun - here, but a Google search will provide plenty more information to ponder.
  
  
  
  Oh, and since when was it 'conventional' to release synthetic, man-made toxins, which wouldn't naturally exist, into our biosphere?

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Braidman (U11753668) on Wednesday, 26th August 2009

  
  
  .Cricky! you'll have us living in sod huts with grass roots before some of you are finished!
  
  The man with the red flag walking in front of the car syndrome is alive and well in the 21st century.
  
  .

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by theweeshep (U13961168) on Thursday, 27th August 2009

  Cricky! you'll have us living in sod huts with grass roots before some of you are finished!
  
  ^^Sounds fun. If that was what it took (not that it is) to have a planet future generations can live on, are we really so selfish we wouldn't do it? What a sad world we live in.
  
  In response to johnfife, I don't think it's the organic principle that's flawed, more the interpretation and application of it.
  
  The man with the red flag walking in front of the car syndrome is alive and well in the 21st century
  
  ^^Don't know what this syndrome is, but it sounds pretty dangerous!!
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Tigerredwood (U13742280) on Thursday, 27th August 2009

  Hello eco_gardener
  An excellent repost to a rather myopic viewpoint, well said. As an aside google "banned insecticides" for a horrifying read. It is just a pity that people in this day and age don't get the bigger picture of what damage has and is being done to the planet we live on and what our children will inherit.A crying shame IMHO.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Johnfife (U10160312) on Thursday, 27th August 2009

  I thought that would get you going.
  The reference to diesel and plastic was for commercial crops and not for flame guns, sorry didn't make that clear.
  The only reason there are concerns about Roundup is because it is so effective and doesn't leave any weeds for the bugs to live off. It is so harmless you could amost drink it.
  I garden pragmatically - use organic methods like covering carrots and brassicas with fleece because it is the only way I can get decent crops, but have no hesitation about using modern fugicides to prevent blight and weedkillers where necessary.
  I suppose it's having been a farmer for 40 years that makes me myopic.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Tigerredwood (U13742280) on Thursday, 27th August 2009

  Hello Johnfife
  I'm sorry I can only respond to what you say in your posts and not what you meant to say. The use of pesticides and fungicides have "helped" the farmers of the planet poison the envoiroment since their induction. Ministries Of Agriculture around the world had the problem of feeding the populations and if any bugs or diseases showed their ugly faces then anything that would cure the problem would be used willy nilly to eradicate the problem. It is a shame that the bigger picture was avoided to produce enough crops regardless of their affect on the planet. Wikipedea has an excellent report on banned insecticides if you could take the time to read it then maybe you would begin to see the Organic viewpoint. The use of these was only investigated when they began to affect mankind and by then the damage was done, and is still being done around the world.40 years in the trade should make you realize that profit is not the only way forward and that farmers in general have a responsibility to know what damage their product use on everyone and the food chain has. Maybe modern usage is less harmfull but in general things like DDT and suchlike were seen as welcome until their disasterous affects were made known. That problem is NEVER encountered with Organic systems. I suppose you pay your money and you make your choice eh?

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Thursday, 27th August 2009

  Johnfife - I would urge you to read the following and many more articles like it.
  
  
  
  
  
  Glyphosate itself does appear to have low toxicity, but it is never sold in a pure form. The surfactants used to adhere it to plant leaves are a much bigger problem. Please don't drink it....

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