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gardening women
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Message 1.Â
Posted by capricornJennyS (U14236204) on Friday, 27th November 2009
Fantastic programme tonight on women gardeners. VERY , very overdue !! However,as always there were several personal comments made by Carol about women and their children and how gardening was passed down from mother to daughter......but the majority of women she focussed on tonight were lesbians leading lesbian lifestyles. If it's relevant to point out that some women were married , surely it is only right to mention a same sex relationship too. In this case the heterosexual references were unnecessary.
So sadly , after watching a programme full of women like me , I still feel marginalised and invisible. Come on Ö÷²¥´óÐã, you can do better than this. -
Message 2
Posted by capricornJennyS (U14236204) on Friday, 27th November 2009
I suspect I am JennyS.......I signed in so long ago.....I'm not
impersonating myself, just forgetful. -
Message 3
Posted by PenylanSue (U13901201) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
You've made a good point there Jenny but I think Carol was referring to Victorian,Elizabethan and earlier women who probably weren't lesbians if they'd had children to pass on to. The women such as Vita etc, yes were lesbians and probably would not have been able to do what they did if they'd had husbands to stop them. Maybe that point should have been made.
It was the lack of men during the wars that enabled ordinary women to take up jobs previously exclusive to men. -
Message 4
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
Goodness me! Facts!! Vita S-W was married and had children and had a husband who shared her love of the house and garden and positively encouraged her planting schemes and garden writing. She also had lesbian relationships. So what?
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Message 5
Posted by SilverGalanthus (U13903849) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
Excellent point made JennyS. This is typical of how the gay community is ignored or their sexuality is overlooked or brushed over, despite the contributions they make to society. Yet straight gardeners will have their 'lifestyles' (as if being gay was ever a lifestyle choice for goodness's sake!) lavished on as key to their work.
When I watched the Ö÷²¥´óÐã's Sissinghurst programmes, Adam Nicholson, Sarah Raven's husband, thought it important to highlight Vita's relationship with Virginia Woolf and pulled up the National Trust on it, saying their information panels conveniently made no reference to it, but made plenty of reference to her husband and children. Why is this? Because it's easier for an ignorant public to digest the mundane and have their narrow worldview assured rather than have their horizons broadened by what is different.
It's not a question of 'So What?' - It may seem like a far off country, but given that the Commonwealth nation of Uganda is about to pass a law enforcing the death penalty on gay men and lesbian women, I think it matters a hell of a lot! Not only that, anyone who knows a gay person in Uganda and doesn't inform the authorities within 24 hours will face three years in prison according to reports in the papers.
It may seem terribly open minded not think it important what someone's sexuality is as long as they're 'great' gardeners or that sexuality doesn't determine whether you are a good gardener or not, but the fact is, gay people all over the world still face discrimination, persecution, torture and death for just trying to form loving relationships with people of the same sex.
I'm trying not to make this into a bandwagon, but the more the contribution of gay men and women to all fields of industry, culture, gardening, the arts or whatever is at least recognized, the more society can hopefully come to a greater understanding that discrimination and division benefits absolutely noone.
Anyway, I loved the programme despite the glossing over and Carol's still my all time favourite. She is divinely mad - never change Carol!
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Message 6
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
Uganda does not have a good reputation for any sort of open-mindedness, does it?
That is news to me though and truly dreadful..
Back to Carol - I would love to know her and be able to talk to her, her enthusiasm is infectious -
Message 7
Posted by thejollygardener (U14236510) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
I really enjoyed this programme. The women shown, and many like them, were real pioneers. It is easy to forget how quickly attitudes have changed. I met my wife at horticultural college in the 1970s when almost all students were male. On leaving college, she was unable to get a job in our nearest local authority parks dept. despite them having vacancies for which she was well qualified. The reason for refusing to interview her was because they had a blanket policy of not employing female gardeners.
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Message 8
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
SG - as Nooj says there is nothing very progressive or equal about thinbking processes in Uganda and indeed many other African countries where female circumcision is still practised or in cultures where gays of either sex are persecuted and so on.
However, I don't believe you have to be gay to be good at something and vice versa. It should always be intellect and personality that determine a person's abilities and achievements.
This programme was about celebrating women gardeners who had achieved great things in a culture which, from the middle ages to quite recently, denied the abilities of women in horticulture or circumscribed their ablity to pursue it as a serious ocupation. That is something common to women regardless of their sexuality. -
Message 9
Posted by hereisabee (U2342191) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
See what you want to see (man), as the old hippies used to say. I watched the programme okay without thinking of sexuality. Marianne North is interesting because she was prevented getting her hands in the soil, not because she was a woman, but because her social status. I was at a study day recently and the middle class came from being between the aristocracy and the yeoman, craftsmen and labourers. To labour was seen to be common and it took several terrible wars to break the mould.
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Message 10
Posted by Sparky (U6716422) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
I enjoyed this program enormously. I was surprised to see the sexuality issue being taken so seriously on here. It didn't occur to me that that was an issue. As has been said, it was class that prevented women from advancing in horticulture (and a great many other things).
Well done Carole, on a very interesting program. -
Message 11
Posted by groundelder (U11750698) on Saturday, 28th November 2009
Enjoyed this immensely - oh how we take for granted being able to do "mens' jobs" now if we so wish. So much more discrimination then - what comes across is the sheer arrogance and belittling of men towards women.
We're not quite there yet, but the fact that "working class" women today have almost as many choices and chances as the so-called "middle classes" in this country, are steps in the right direction.
Another 50 years down the line, who knows what women can achieve?
A gem of a programme. -
Message 12
Posted by ellenkay (U11471453) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
The Victorians had double standards though as although they thought that it was inappropriate for women who had "social standing" to work in the garden, they were quite happy for "working class" women to be out in the fields picking potatoes, harvesting corn, etc. In our local park in the Victorian era they used to employ women at a very low wage to weed the flower beds during the summer time. As long as the menial tasks were done I don't think they cared about the gender too much as long as the "upper class" were not doing it!
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Message 13
Posted by the cycling gardener (U2350416) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
Yes, good point. Women have been employed in horticulture for centuries although, as you rightly say, through necessity rather than pleasure and not in the decorative flower garden but toiling out in the fields as so many still do in the poorest parts of the world.
I thoroughly enjoyed the programme even though my attention was divided as I watched with one eye on the TV and the other on the mountain of ironing I waded through at the time. Thanks to the women who pioneered equal opportunities I am able to pursue a career in horticulture and do the washing, ironing, cleaning, shopping and cooking. -
Message 14
Posted by friezeland (U14238475) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
My Great Grandmother was not famous as the Women mentioned in the Friday Night Programne but she was probably one of the First women to grow plants to sell on a large scale
Emma Louisa Burrows born 1851 in IPSWICH married to my Gr Grandfather Samuel Dunn Gowen 1851 -1878
Then
Married Watson James Faires 1815-1919 in 1882
They had a Garden Nursery at Swanley in Kent which was taken on after WW1 by one of their Sons James Faires BORN 1888 and his wife and was still in Existance in 1949 as a modern Garden Centre
James served in the Army in WW1
I dont know what happened to the Nursery after that date as my family moved away from the area
I have always been a Gardener Planting Seeds and making a Garden wherever I have lived and one House we lived in taking a 3/4 acre field and transforming it into a Garden to Open for Charities to Raise Money and also growing all of our Veg and fruit to feed us
I now have a tiny plot but still win Cups and Prizes at the Local Show and still grow the Runner Beans and Tomatoes for myself
Not bad for a 73 yr old
Gardening does run in families Male or Female
I have a 13yr old Grandaughter who has been Pricking out seedlings with me since she was very small and loves it
The future is ROSIE !!
Posted by friezeland -
Message 15
Posted by SparklyTwirler (U14172124) on Monday, 30th November 2009
An enjoyable and informative programme. I detected no bias of any description - nor should there be. A person's sexuality is a private thing and does not reflect their ability to garden or have innovative ideas.It is a true irrelevance.
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Message 16
Posted by Toadspawn (U2334298) on Monday, 30th November 2009
What a sad person you must be. Get a life!
A superb programme for a change. What is important is the love of gardening by the person and what they have contributed and not their sexual leaning.
I eventually finished watching the recording tonight and as far as I could see there was no mention of sexuality just a love of gardening and plants. -
Message 17
Posted by Yakram (U2443370) on Wednesday, 9th December 2009
Finally got round to watching an interesting and informative programme. Let's hear it for the amazing lady gardeners - not only of yesteryear but now - and that includes the ladies of this MessageBoard.
We already know that we have some amazing gentlemen gardeners, but ladies tend to hide their talents and quietly get on with their gardening.
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Message 18
Posted by Olive_head (U7366193) on Saturday, 12th December 2009
I really enjoyed this programme, especially the part on Ellen Willmott. I used to go to Warley Gardens once a week as a volunteer gardener and I loved experiencing all the seasons down there and learning about this fascinating woman. I'm in my early 30's and from visiting weekly and being assigned a different job every time sparked a huge gardening passion. I'm now studying Horticulture in the evenings and it's all down to Miss Willmott and the lovely group of people who are working hard to look after it and to make sure it's not lost to nature again!
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Message 19
Posted by greeneddy (U6603838) on Saturday, 12th December 2009
Fab. Best of luck with your studies.
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