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Monty and Mycorrhizal fungi
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Message 1.Â
Posted by honestGreengrass (U11104227) on Friday, 16th March 2012
So pleased to see Monty's great explanation of how mycorrhizal fungi work to improve root growth. I've been using this on roses as well as vegetables for the past couple of years and had amazing results. They're sold as Roots Boost products from a number of different sources but I guess they're all the same. Nature certainly has the answers!
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Message 2
Posted by Pumpkin_Patch_Paul (U14565900) on Sunday, 18th March 2012
Nature does not come out of a packet and as for the fungi baloney I would like him to have planted four with and four without and let us all see the results........But hey that would be a trial and GW doesn't seem to do those..
PPP -
Message 3
Posted by pjgolf (U2469936) on Sunday, 18th March 2012
Good to see you have an open mind on this Paul !!!
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Message 4
Posted by honestGreengrass (U11104227) on Monday, 19th March 2012
Hi PPP, There's a huge amount of scientific data to support the use of beneficial soil microbials, much of which can be googled. It's also interesting to see how many of the multinational crop protection companies are now producing them as well.
The more I've looked into this the more fascinated I am.
Besides the mycorrhizal fungi that attach to plant roots and basically extend the root network, there's other fungi and bacteria that are now found to destroy diseases such as blight and phytophthora!!
Look how popular Bacillus subtillis became with many commercial growers in the UK within a couple of years!!
There's also one called Metarhyzium (not sure spelt right) that kills vine weevils and remains active for years in the soil!
Another can be used to solubilise phosphate (a penicillium I think) which has huge potentials for reducing fertiliser use!
There's also the nitrogen fixating rhizobia bacteria that we all know about on our legumes.
So nature does seem to have the answers to most of our problems.. we just need to find them!
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Message 5
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Monday, 19th March 2012
The fact that the RHS recommends this and also David Austin has his own brand available should be enough to convince all but the most entrenched sceptics.
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Message 6
Posted by bren (U15192165) on Monday, 19th March 2012
The benefits of Mycorrhizal fungi are clear and well researched but does adding it to the soil at planting time actually help? Or does it not make any difference in the long run to the Mycorrhizal fungi that would eventually form anyway?
The RHS page that I found is less than conclusive on the subject (see conclusion at the bottom of the page)
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Message 7
Posted by TomBradbury (U3349234) on Monday, 19th March 2012
People have gardened for 100's and 1000's of years without the need to scoop this stuff into the ground. Why do we need it now? To me it is no more than snake oil to sell to naive punters thinking they are doing something extraordinary for their plants. Perhaps it is beneficial, but is it necessary?
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Message 8
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Monday, 19th March 2012
Interesting point, Tim.
There is, in the end, no substitute for good soil structure with plenty of organic matter and thus air in it, almost regardless of what beneficial substances may be added to it. The former takes rather more physical work to achieve, of course. -
Message 9
Posted by Obelixx (U2157162) on Monday, 19th March 2012
Given that people tend to have less time for gardening than they may like and that plants cost money, it's surely worth investing in a little extra help to make sure the special ones survive and thrive.
We can and do spend ages on soil improvement, compost making and so on and i don't see anything wrong in giving plants another turbo boost that helps them grow better and stronger rather than just slapping on feed and water and growing them soft. -
Message 10
Posted by honestGreengrass (U11104227) on Tuesday, 20th March 2012
These soil microbes are present in all good soils, but can take months, if not years to form the associations with plant roots because the roots have to make direct contact with the fungal spores.
This is why they topping soil levels up with the commercially available products is great for new plantings and short term plants such as annuals and veg.
The fact that they create a much more efficient root network will be of great value to us during droughts and hose-pipe bans!
The concept to using beneficial soil fungi and bacteria from packets, is similar to using nematodes to control slugs. The nematodes already live in the soil and most slugs have a natural infestation which will eventually kill them them... however, adding additional nematodes from a packet provides us with a quicker and more widespread mortality. -
Message 11
Posted by Trillium (U2170869) on Tuesday, 20th March 2012
Yes, on balance if you're going to add something when planting, better to add a substance which aids the roots' ability to take up available nutrients over the longer run, than to add short term nutrients which will soon be gone.
Like giving a man a fishing rod, instead of a bag of fish. Stretching the analogy possibly too far, my earlier post was trying to observe that a man with a fishing rod needs a decently stocked pond to fish in....
I'm testing an additive to our peat-free compost which is essentially a fine clay powder with mycorrhizal funghi spores in it. The former improves cation exchange thus reducing nutrient leaching and the latter extends root functionality. The product has no NPK score, in itself. I shall be very interested to see the results and will share them here. -
Message 12
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Tuesday, 20th March 2012
Please do Trillium!-
fascinating the whole debate. -
Message 13
Posted by propergardener (U15164672) on Tuesday, 20th March 2012
Years ago when propagating Erica carnea for a company we would go and remove soil from around the base of growing Ericas and add it to the cutting compost it was ment to improve rooting % we were infact adding mycorrhizal,i am talking about 40 years ago, we did a trial after much fighting and it was true rooting improved so did %.
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Message 14
Posted by Braidman (U11753668) on Tuesday, 20th March 2012
.
It most certainly doesn't work on tomatoes as I tried it when they went big on advertising a couple of years ago.
Worst size of tomato plants and rubbish fruits ever!
I grow and was growing Legend beef tomatoes, luckily I still had a couple of seeds left in the packet, which I carefully made sure were planted last year, along with seeds from a fresh packet, guess what a, back to normal plants and crop!
As tomatoes are a quick crop to judge, unlike trees or shrubs, the results speak for themselves!
Too often I fall to these snake-oil salesmen, I keep saying never again, but I still succumb!
Bah! -
Message 15
Posted by honestGreengrass (U11104227) on Thursday, 22nd March 2012
there's wine and there's wine... So many soil microbial products are now appearing on the market that the rubbish ones will soon be ousted. I'm using the ones that Harrod stock and have been very pleased with results. You definitely need to use the right product for the right crop though.
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Message 16
Posted by Pumpkin_Patch_Paul (U14565900) on Friday, 23rd March 2012
Anybody else watch the Ö÷²¥´óÐã 4 science/garden programme that showed that the old wife's tale the the bean family left fixed nitrogen in the soil via it root globuals was a load of old cobblers.......
So seaweed spray/root fungi/ and fixed nitrogen are snake oil it seems.....
PPP -
Message 17
Posted by nooj (U13729031) on Friday, 23rd March 2012
Really!?
I've been leaving bean roots in for years just for that reason!
Someone will be along to tell us there is no Heaven next
oH B---ER -
Message 18
Posted by Pumpkin_Patch_Paul (U14565900) on Friday, 23rd March 2012
Really!?
I've been leaving bean roots in for years just for that reason!
Someone will be along to tell us there is no Heaven next
oH B---ERÂ Same here!!! The scientist tested the nitrogen in the roots through the growing period and at the end of said period the nitrogen was exuasted and fully used by the plant.
Makes sense to me I mean why would a plant leave a store of nitrogen in the soil for another plant to use,it not like the seeds from a runner bean can make it through the winter in the soil...Thanks CK...
PPP -
Message 19
Posted by PenylanSue (U13901201) on Friday, 23rd March 2012
Don't forget that the Runner Bean is not native but is a perennial in its native country. Once the plant has died the nodules do nothing but of course if the plant remains alive it carries on receiving the nitrogen through those nodules.
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Message 20
Posted by honestGreengrass (U11104227) on Sunday, 25th March 2012
My advice is to give it a go if you're not sure. A simple experiment comparing treated to untreated is all it takes.
I'm a definite believer after seeing around 70% increase in potato yield with the treated and amazing carrots from the treated plots.
TAlso, the two roses I treated last year were astonishingly vigorous and produced many more buds than the untreated. -
Message 21
Posted by drwalter (U1365507) on Monday, 26th March 2012
I have used the T&M version called RootGrow during the pricking-out process for the first time this year (after sowing the seeds on a New Moon phase) - so I'm hoping for VAST improvements from last year.
I bought an old "electric coffee grinder" in a jumble sale so I could grind down the mycorrhizal fungi pellets to a fine powder, then rolled the pricked-out seedlings in it carefully.
So, far, I have not lost seedlings (all on the window-sills at home) from damping off (30 Lupins looking impressive), and fed with diluted seaweed feed.
Mycorrhizal fungi is EXPENSIVE (when bought mail-order) so I hope high-street retailers will buy-it-in. -
Message 22
Posted by honestGreengrass (U11104227) on Saturday, 31st March 2012
Glad you're finding less damping off. That's one of the things I'd noticed as well. I think the fungi are expensive because they're quite difficult to mass produce. This was one of the cheapest I found
I'm also trying the soluble form this year and dipping the plants into a bucket of fungal solution rather than drench the solution onto the ground. I managed to treat 50 small yew trees with 1 small packet!!
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