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Problem of the Picts

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 18th September 2005

  I think it was Henry of Huntingdon who first noted that of the peoples mentioned by Bede as inhabiting Britain in the 8th C AD the Picts were now 'missing'.
  
  I think it is generally agreed that they were not 'uterly destroyed' by the Scots contrary to the Declaration of Arbroath (Independence taking pride in genocide?) and that many Scots must be at least in part descended from the Picts.
  
  Recent accounts suggest that the Pictish kingdom collapsed under the weight of viking attack and the Scots were left to pick up the pieces. But what happened to the Picts and why did they lose their identity and how long did it take?
  
  It is particularly puzzling as up to Nechtansmere the Angle kingdom of Northumbria appears to have been the most powerful in North Britain and afterwards the Pictish kingdom but never Daldraida. I not ven certain if they were more powerful than the British kingdom of Strathclyde so how come the Scots ended up the dominanat power in North Britain?
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 19th September 2005

  Difficult to prove, but I suspect that it was a case of usurpation of the senior positions with the Scots taking the top spots. The ordinary folk probably being the descendants of the Picts. Interestingly, I have often wondered whether the ongoing East / West divide in Scotland is originally rooted in this rivalry.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Monday, 19th September 2005

  I did not know there was an east west divide I thought it was more Highland Lowland.
  
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 19th September 2005

  No. Although there is always a tendency for us city dwellers to take the mickey out of our more rural, and hence usually northerly, brethren, there is far more made of the cultural differences between East and West Scotland. The west has far more religious bigotry akin to the Irish problems, although this is more to do with influxes of irish immigrants in centuries past, but even apart from that, there is intense rivalry between east and west Scotland in all walks of life.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Tuesday, 20th September 2005

  The best book I have on this topic is 'The Picts and the Scots' by Lloyd and Jennifer Laing.
  
  It is clear that even before the Scot, Kenneth MacAlpin, became king of Scots and Picts in (IIRC) 843AD that there had been other times when both peoples had been united under one ruler, sometimes a Pict, sometimes a Scot. And the cultural and presumably racial, mingling goes back a long way.
  
  The Dal Riada (Irish) ancestors of the Scots may well have had Picts for near neighbours even when in the north of Ireland. The Dal nAraide (think that's the spelling!) were referred to as 'Cruithni' which seems to be the Irish analogue of Pretani/Prydani: 'Britons', used of Picts.
  
  I would like to know more of the Strathclyde Britons and their part in it all. I know from the above book that sometimes Scots and Picts allied against the Britons (or Northumbrian English for that matter), and at other times Scots, say, would ally with the Britons against the Picts.
  
  It certainly sin't a simple case of 'genocide' by Scots against Picts. But Scots Gaelic prevailed over Pictish, of course (and 'Old Pictish' seems to have been a non-Celtic language, whereas the everyday language of Picts by c.600AD was a 'P' Celtic one akin to Welsh but with some older words in it.
  
  The Strathclyde kingdom lasted, I believe, till the 11th century. 'Glasgow' is a British (Welsh if you like!) word!

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Wednesday, 21st September 2005

  "The Strathclyde kingdom lasted, I believe, till the 11th century. 'Glasgow' is a British (Welsh if you like!) word!"
  
  I believe that it ceased to be independent in the 10th C when the English invaded it and then handed it over to the Scots to rule, I think the Scottish monarchy following Brunanburh were subject to the English monarchy. It carried on as a sub-kingdom to the Scots until the battle of Carham (1016 or 1018 the date is disputed) when the Scots with Strathclyde as allies beat the Northumbrians. The last Strathclyde king was killed in the battle and the Scots annexed it, what you call a double whammy. The Normans later extened the Border further north taking in a lot of the old kingdom and rather like the Picts they lost their separate identity.
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Luis99 (U1688250) on Thursday, 22nd September 2005

  'The Dal nAraide were referred to as 'Cruithni'
  
  I thought they were two different 'clans'. Also to say that the "'Cruithni' seems to be the Irish analogue of Pretani/Prydani" is a rather big if. What is the evidence for this? It seems like adding 2+2 and getting 22.
  

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Friday, 23rd September 2005

  Re. Message 7
  
  I am sure that Lloyd & Jennifer Laing say that the Dal nAraide in 'Ulster' are referred to as 'Cruithne' (ok I spelt it slightly wrongly before!).
  
  I have seen various authors say that Irish Gaelic as a 'Q' Celtic language had 'Cruithne' as its equivalent to 'Pretani' in 'P' Celtic languages like Pictish and (North) Brittonic. I think Scots/Irish writings talking of the Picts in 'Scotland' call them 'Cruithne'.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Friday, 23rd September 2005

  There are a number of DNA studies,which revealed that the genes of the early inhabitants of Scotland,England,Wales,Cornwall and Ireland still have a strong presence in those countries.The numerous invaders and influxes of new immigrants did not eradicate the orginal inhabitants.Many of the residents of northern Scotland have DNA,which was bequeathed by the Picts.

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