Ancient and Archaeology permalink
The cradle of civilization
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by taijun_2008 (U8002533) on Thursday, 5th April 2007
If our world were not separated by oceans and mountains, which nation would be the cradle of the civilization of the whole mankind's history?
This is my first time that I start a discussion. I'd like read any view about this topic. -
Message 2
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Thursday, 5th April 2007
Pakistan had the earliest large urban centre,but whether that would make it the cradle of civilization is a moat point.
-
Message 3
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 6th April 2007
I expect there wil lbe a few contenders fo rthis. The Mohenko-Daro civilisation in what is now Pakistan was certainly very ancient, but in terms of its legacy for mankind, it does not, as far as I know, seem to have had much influence on later civilisations. I don't think the writing has even been deciphered yet.
The Sumerians on the other hand have left us with days divided into 24 hours and astronomy. Other civilisations such as Greece and Rome may have had a greater influence on modern western civilisation, but the Sumerians were around a long time before them, and the influenbce of Greece and Rome was only on western Europe.
Sumer would get my vote. -
Message 4
Posted by taijun_2008 (U8002533) on Tuesday, 17th April 2007
THX for your replies.
But don't forget the East! There had been some superexcellent nations. It's especially worth nothing that they not only owned the most powerful military might of those times, but also the most advanced political systems and technique. In my opinion, if there were no so many impassable mountains between Europe and Asia or insuperalbe ocean between America and Asia, Chinese civilization would be more influential. Of course,the world is so vast for our ancestor that no one nation had the ability to propagate their civilization all over the world. So I think Egypt, Greec, China and so on were still the cradle of the civilization, but Rome would not be important as it has been. -
Message 5
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 17th April 2007
Taijun,
interesting question, but I have some difficulties with "the whole mankind's history".
You have to see it in steps and each emerging civilisation was influenced by the others, separated by oceans and mountains or not. I agree the sheer distance as between the Chinese and the Romans in for instance 1000 AD was a difficulty for the mutual influence. But think at the influence of the Alexander empire. Even people in nowadays India seems to recite stories from Alexander's time in local "men's gatherings" (I saw it in a British documentary and I have no better word for what I saw
. Pubs?)
Yes I looked at flash-shots in my "Cassell Atlas of the World"
2000 BC: Egypt, the Euphrate-Tigris society,
Southern Europe in the Bronze Age. They were close together and influencing each other. But you had the Indus valley (Harappa) culture. But even there there are indices that they emerged from the cupper trade with Mesopotamia.
1000 BC: You have still nearly the same protagonists: the re-ermerging Assyrians and Babylon, Egypt, the new Creta Minoic culture, the emerging China with the Zhou dynasty. The Indus culture was gone.
Yes you can have a point I think if you place the Indus valley culture geographically near the Middle-east cultures. And yes if the Chinese culture would be let's say at the place of nowadays Iran, you could have had a lot more reciprocal "contamination".
But IMO it is practical unworkable to make a prognosis, which culture would have the cradle as there are that many intangibles in history. Take now the rapid conquest by the Turks, making the Arabic culture that preponderant in the world of those days. Yes and it could have been the Chinese or the Indian, depending on that many possibilities.
And yes, it is said that the emergence of the western culture has all to do with the geography of Europe. The same with the other cultures as the river Indus, the Nile, the Euphrate and the Tigris, the China rivers.
That are my first thoughts and I have to prepare now a reply for Kurt about the French.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 6
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Wednesday, 18th April 2007
according to david icke 13 green lizards are the cradle of civilisasation,
according to john trovolta in battle field earth it is aliens who are the cradle of life,
according to darwin apes are what we are decended from,so why are apes still here and why are we shooting them.
if mankind are decended from apes at what stage did we become meat eaters,
i wonder i wonder, -
Message 7
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Wednesday, 18th April 2007
I may have misunderstood the question. I don’t think anyone can deny that China had a great civilisation which still has a cultural impact to this day. For that matter, one could argue the Aztec (or Mexica) and Incan civilisations were, in their own ways, significant contributors to the modern world, although more in cultural matters than technology or judicial legacy.
However, the use of the word, "cradle" led me to believe we were looking for the earliest civilisation which has had an impact on the modern world and what the Chinese and South American cultures have in common is that they were later in history than the Middle Eastern civilisations. So irrespective of whether physical geographical barriers are ignored, they could not be deemed the "cradle" of modern civilisation.
For me, the main contenders have to be Sumer, Indus, Egypt and Greece.
I agree with Paul that there is a "stepping stone" analogy in that many civilisations have borrowed from their predecessors. Rome, for example, was heavily influenced by Greek culture. The Greek civilisation, if we go back to the Ö÷²¥´óÐãric age, was certainly ancient, and it could be argued that, via Rome, then via Western Europe's dominance of the world from the 18th century, Greece has had the greatest influence. However, most cultural impact has come from classical Greece which itself developed through interaction with Egypt and Persia. Greece can certainly claim to be the cradle of modern democracy and has also left a large legacy in terms of mathematics, philosophy and language. English is the lingua franca of the world and contains many words derived from Greek and so Greece continues to have an impact on the modern world, albeit via several stages.
Ancient Egypt has not, I think, had too great an influence outside its own borders except as a tourist destination. I expect some will disagree but there are not many aspects of modern life one could look at and say, "That came to us from the ancient Egyptians".
The Indus valley civilisation was unknown for many centuries so I don’t think can claim to have influenced much at all. Again, there may be cultural impacts that ae unrecognised but still have an influence on the Indian sub-continent, but I don’t think anyone could point ot any evidence and say, "This comes to us from the Indus Valley civilisation".
That leaves Sumer which, in terms of the development of cities, monumental buildings, agriculture, astronomy, writing (as in recording things, rather than literature) and the creation of political and religious societies, was the earliest of them all and influenced it successors, the Assyrians and Babylonians and so on, through the ages. -
Message 8
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Wednesday, 18th April 2007
West of Eurasia
Dissemination of culture and technical innovations among the societies of Mesoamerica and northern South America varied regionally and temporally.
Peru's Aspero Valley site had 6 large and 11 small platform mounds.Calibrated [2006] C14 dates for the Sacrific and Hauca de Los Sacrificous "ziggurats" range from 3900-3300 BCE.Many of the walls were built with basalt blocks and some H style masonry,that was used at Lake Titicaca 3.5Ka later,[M Moseley,2001].
The "Piramide Major" at Caral,Peru,dates to ca 2830 BCE.The large urban centre covered about 65ha.Caral was probably colonized by people from the Aspero Valley.These trader-farmers may have used "Quipa" to record commercial transactions.
Quipa were used much later by the Inca.The residents of Caral did not have metal tools, ceramics,maize or the written word.These innovations were introduced at a later date from the north.It was abandoned during the 2200-1600 cold,dry era,[S Solis,2005].
Paso de La Amada near the west coast of Mesoamerica was established ca 1550 BCE by settlers,who might have come from northern South America.This community expanded and traded with the proto-Olmec.The merchants of Paso de La Amada
also introduced aspects of their culture to the Gulf coast populations.Later,when the Olmec became prominent,the direction of cultural influence was reversed,[R Diel,2004]
West of Eurasia urban life began in The Aspero Valley of Peru,but the elements of civilization were eventually derived from many sources. -
Message 9
Posted by malacandran (U1813859) on Friday, 27th April 2007
Dissemination of culture and technical innovations among the societies of Mesoamerica and northern South America varied regionally and temporallyÂ
But weren't they just failed attempts at civilisation?
Real civilisation began in Europe, and that's why we are communicating on the Internet.
South American societies didn't contribute much.
Apart from ripping out the beating hearts of human sacrificies.
What good does it do, to remember their barbarity?
So, why not just write them off, and forget about them. -
Message 10
Posted by mickeymay (U3600416) on Friday, 27th April 2007
TonyG,
I think the Sumerian city states was the cradle of history
-
Message 11
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Friday, 27th April 2007
i would reckon that the bhramaputra/yangze/fertile crescent would still be the main contenders myself.
-
Message 12
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
If our world were not separated by oceans and mountains, which nation would be the cradle of the civilization of the whole mankind's history?Â
India -
Message 13
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
Do you mean the subcontinent?
Where in India do you mean? Earlier posts mention the Indus valley - not one centre but about 140 with Two very large urban developments (known as Mohenjo Daro and Harrapa). Their main growth was a spurt of advanced government about 180 years circa 1800BC. All of these are in Pakistan with border expansion into Iran and possibly to Dubai.
They were sea traders - cotton - and there are signs of a large port with stone quays - the name escapes me - found in the Indus delta.
The cities had drainage system, grid streets, sophisticated wells, broad streets in the industrial area, huge granaries (the local bank)
large house of 2 storeys. They played games like chess and 9 man morris, revered water and as mentioned before an undeciphered pictogram kind of script deduced from the many faience seals and impressions.
However, surely there are similar great river civilisations which were concurrently developing so I doubt there is a cradle.
Regards P. -
Message 14
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 6th June 2007
What would you say are the prerequisites for the development of an early civilisation? I'm guessing that fertile land is quite a critical one, as is access to resources. Any others?
Cheers,
RF
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Ö÷²¥´óÐã iD
Ö÷²¥´óÐã navigation
Ö÷²¥´óÐã links
Ö÷²¥´óÐã © 2014 The Ö÷²¥´óÐã is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.