Ancient and Archaeology permalink
Ancient wine-making
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Message 1.Â
Posted by SafricanAndy (U7173046) on Monday, 16th April 2007
With today's high-tech equipment and advances in microbial knowledge, wine has become a high quality commodity due to prevention of spoilage.
But in ancient times, what was wine like? I suspect it must have tasted pretty awful...Is this perhaps why it was diluted with water, and other things chucked in (honey, fruit etc.) to improve the taste a bit?
What ancient sources give any light on the actual wine-making practices? -
Message 2
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Monday, 16th April 2007
they have found an alchoholics anonamous meeting under the city of rome dating back thousands of years.
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Message 3
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Tuesday, 17th April 2007
An earthenware pot,which was retrieved from the Miyanboab plain of Armenia contained a dark stain residue,that was identified as a primative wine sediment.It dates to circa 5500 BCE.
Analysis of pottery shards from the Zagros Mountains of Iranian Kurdistan revealed that wine was produced 5400-5000 BCE.
A recent press release suggested that wine or grape juice was made in Greece circa 4500 BCE. -
Message 4
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 24th April 2007
No-one is really sure what ancient wine was like, but yes, probably harsher than modern wine. Sour wine (acetum) - virtually wine vinegar - was the standard official drink for the Roman Army (although in reality in Western Europe the more easily obtainable beer was probably more common). The evidence suggests that wines were often sweeter than most modern wines - more like modern dessert wines. The Cretans produced raisin wine (known to the Romans as passum), the production of which is described by Pliny:
"Some make passum from any sweet, early-ripening, white grapes, drying the bunches in the sun till little over half their weight remains. Then they gently express the must. The more painstaking makers dry the grapes in this same way, pick the individual grapes and soak them, without the stalks, in fine wine till they swell, and then press them. This style is considered better than any other" (Pliny, 'Natural History', tr. Rackham/Jones)
This was a highly prized wine, both drunk in itself and used in high-class cooking. Crushing, incidentally, was done by foot! You can still buy it (the French call it Vin de Paille, the Italians passito or vin santo) but it's very expensive and hard to obtain; For a cheaper and perhaps more authentic version, 'The Classical Cookbook' (Dalby/Grainger) gives a do-it-yourself recipe based on the recipe of Columella (c. AD60):
Take 1 pint/2.5 cups/570ml of red wine and 4oz/120g of raisins. Soak the raisins in the wine for two to three days until they are soft and swollen. Blend or mash the mixture and strain through a sieve. It can be used immediately. (NB: I haven't tried this one, and if you do try this out, I take no responsibility if you poison yourself!
) -
Message 5
Posted by malacandran (U1813859) on Sunday, 29th April 2007
Suppose the Romans had discovered distillation.
So they could make whisky, gin and vodka.
Roman public orgies were supposedly spectacular.
And they were fuelled only by wine.
If the Romans had been more brilliantly lit, by spirit-based drinks, what might have happened? -
Message 6
Posted by zakhx150 (U8216913) on Sunday, 29th April 2007
the difference in wine quality is portrayed well in Ö÷²¥´óÐãr's Iliad. The best wine is saved, like todays, for important occasions: leaders of men and very important sacrifices. Achilles also ordered Patroclus to mix "less water with the wine, for these are dear friends of mine" - showing the quality wine, propbably harsh comapred to todays, should not be watered down.
Unmixed wine, argued by Menander, was thought likely to lead to madness (even death...) -
Message 7
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 29th April 2007
The Romans (and all of their neighbours) were no strangers to distilled alcoholic beverages. Distillation (from the Latin de-stillare "drop down / trickle down) was a common technique in the manufacture of balms and perfumes, and - with relevance to your comment - used also as a method of purifying and concentrating wine prior to shipment, cargo being taxed by volume. The idea was that it should be diluted again prior to consumption, but since the taste had significantly changed in the process, and the concentrated drink was palatable in its own right, the spirit became an increasingly popular drink. After 100AD it is mentioned as 'aqua vitæ' in texts, and the Greek 'ambix' apparatus became almost as common a household item as the olive press.
As Romans, and their handily portable 'ambices' travelled ever further afield, so experimentation with other ingredients increased according to local availability. Root crops, grains, fruit and just about everything else were known to have been at some time fermented and distilled under the name 'aqua vitæ' in the Roman world, and there is no doubt that the Romans in equal measure learnt from others along the way. The distillation of mead into an almost lethal liquor was quite common already throughout Europe, and it is believed that Britons and Irish had already begun making rudimentary 'whiskey' before the Romans arrived.
If, through your studies malacandran (though from your previous posts I think I might be being a little too kind with that definition of your learning technique), you have deduced that Roman orgies were fuelled only by wine, then I can simply suggest you have been reading sources written by losers who didn't get invited to the right orgies! -
Message 8
Posted by Gerda (U7592975) on Monday, 7th May 2007
Mon, 07 May 2007 19:07 GMT, in reply to nordmann in message 7
The distillation of mead into an almost lethal liquor was quite common already throughout Europe,Â
i always assumed that was what was in the druid's cauldron in the asterix comics!
i dont see why ancient whine should have been any rougher than modern home-brew. its not rocket science- sterilising equipment can be done with boiling water, fruit flies excluded with fine cloth during initial fermentation, air excluded in secondary ferm. with a wad of same cloth over jar (CO2 is heavier so sits above the wine and seeps out through the cloth). airtight storage, seal with wax. job done. and there would have been no shortage of suitable yeast strains, wild yeast comes with grapes, and even bread yeast can be used to make a good wine.
cheers!
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Message 9
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
What ancient sources give any light on the actual wine-making practices?Â
Check out the Bible:
'Now let me sing to my Well-beloved a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine.' (Isaiah 5:1-2)
'Yet I had planted you a noble vine, a seed of highest quality. How then have you turned before Me Into the degenerate plant of an alien vine?' (Jeremiah 2:21)
'You have brought a vine out of Egypt; you have cast out the nations and planted it' (Psalms 80:8)
'But there was another great eagle with large wings and many feathers; And behold, this vine bent its roots toward him, And stretched its branches toward him, From the garden terrace where it had been planted, That he might water it.' (Ezekiel 17:7)
'Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a well; his branches run over the wall' (Genesis 49:22)
'And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, each man under his vine' (1 Kings 4:25)
'I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.' (John 15:1-5)
'If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned' (John 15:6)
'I will lay it waste; It will not be pruned or hoed, But briars and thorns will come up. I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it.' (Isaiah 5:6)
'I went by the field of the lazy man, and by the vineyard of the man devoid of understanding; and there it was, all overgrown with thorns; its surface was covered with nettles; its stone wall was broken down' (Proverbs 24:30-31)
'I blasted you with blight and mildew. When your gardens increased, Your vineyards, Your fig trees, And your olive trees, The locust devoured them; Yet you have not returned to Me' (Amos 4:9)
'Catch us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vines, for our vines have tender grapes' (Songs 2:15)
'The boar out of the woods uproots it, and the wild beast of the field devours it' (Psalms 80:13)
'Then they came to the Valley of Eshcol, and there cut down a branch with one cluster of grapes; they carried it between two of them on a pole' (Numbers 13:23)
'Woe is me! For I am like those who gather summer fruits, like those who glean vintage grapes; there is no cluster to eat of the first-ripe fruit which my soul desires' (Micah 7:1)
'as the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says, "Do not destroy it, for a blessing is in it", so will I do for My servant's sake, that I may not destroy them all' (Isaiah 65:8)
'He will shake off his unripe grape like a vine, and cast off his blossom like an olive tree' (Job 15:33)
'For before the harvest, when the bud is perfect and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, He will both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks and take away and cut down the branches' (Isaiah 18:5)
'For their vine is the vine of Sodom and of the fields of Gomorrah; their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter' (Deuteronomy 32:32)
'Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow' (Joel 3:13)
'As a grape-gatherer, put your hand back into the branches' (Jeremiah 6:9)
'And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth' (Revelations 14:17-19)
'Your vats will overflow with new wine' (Proverbs 3:10)
'The vats shall overflow with new wine' (Joel 2:24)
'The winepress is full, the vats overflow' (Joel 3:13)
'When one came to the wine vat to draw out fifty baths from the press, there were but twenty' (Haggai 2:16)
'A man planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a place for the wine vat' (Mark 12:1)
'He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, But it produced only worthless ones.' (Isaiah 5:2)
'The fullness of the winepress' (Numbers 18:27)
'Treading winepresses' (Nehemiah 13:15, Job 24:11)
'Made a winepress in it' (Isaiah 5:2)
'No treaders will tread out wine in the presses' (Isaiah 16:10)
'I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses; no one will tread with joyous shouting' (Jeremiah 48:33)
'When one came to the wine vat to draw out fifty baths from the press, there were but twenty' (Haggai 2:16)
'The winepress is full, the vats overflow' (Joel 3:13)
'The king's winepresses' (Zechariah 14:10)
'There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and... dug a winepress in it' (Matthew 21:33)
'He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God' (Revelations 19:15)
'Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?' (Isaiah 63:2)
'Indeed, my belly is like wine that has no vent; it is ready to burst like new wineskins' (Job 32:19)
'He washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes' (Genesis 49:11)
'And you drank wine, the blood of the grapes' (Deuteronomy 32:14)
'The wine is red... and He pours it out; surely its dregs (or lees) shall all the wicked of the earth drain and drink down' (Psalms 75:8)
'A feast of wine on the lees' (Isaiah 25:6)
'Moab has been at ease from his youth; he has settled on his dregs, and has not been emptied from vessel to vessel... therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent has not changed.' (Jeremiah 48:11)
'Every bottle shall be filled with wine.' (Jeremiah 13:12)
'I shall send him wineworkers who will tip him over, and empty his vessels and break the bottles.' (Jeremiah 48:12)
'A skin of wine" (1 Samuel 1:24, 10:3, 16:20)
'Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved' (Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22, Luke 5:37-38)
'and these wine-skins, which we filled, were new; and, behold, they are rent: and these our garments and our shoes are become old by reason of the very long journey.' (Joshua 9:13)
'Behold, my belly is like unvented wine, Like new wineskins it is about to burst.' (Job 32:19)
'Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!' (John 2:10)
'Now a vessel of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth' (John 19:29)
'And in this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well- refined wines on the lees.' (Isaiah 25:6)
'Shimei the Ramathite had charge of the vineyards; and Zabdi the Shiphmite had charge of the produce of the vineyards stored in the wine cellars.' (1 Chronicles 27:27)
'And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, "The old is better"' (Luke 5:39) -
Message 10
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
Pliny the Elder gives plenty of references too in Book XIV. I think he liked a drop or two!
BOOK XIV. THE NATURAL HISTORY OF THE FRUIT TREES.
CHAPS. 1 & 2. THE NATURE OF THE VINE. ITS MODE OF FRUCTIFICATION.
CHAP. 3. THE NATURE OF THE GRAPE, AND THE CULTIVATION OF THE VINE.
CHAP. 4. NINETY-ONE VARIETIES OF THE VINE.
CHAP. 5. REMARKABLE FACTS CONNECTED WITH THE CULTURE OF THE VINE.
CHAP. 6. THE MOST ANCIENT WINES.
CHAP. 7. THE NATURE OF WINES.
CHAP. 8. FIFTY KINDS OF GENEROUS WINES.
CHAP. 9. THIRTY-EIGHT VARIETIES OF FOREIGN WINES.
CHAP. 10. SEVEN KINDS OF SALTED WINES.
CHAP. 11. EIGHTEEN VARIETEIS OF SWEET WINE. RAISIN-WINE AND HEPSEMA.
CHAP. 12. THREE VARIETIES OF SECOND-RATE WINE.
CHAP. 13. AT WHAT PERIOD GENEROUS WINES WERE FIRST COMMONLY MADE IN ITALY.
CHAP. 14. THE INSPECTION OF WINE ORDERED BY KING ROMULUS.
CHAP. 15. WINES DRUNK BY THE ANCIENT ROMANS.
CHAP. 16. SOME REMARKABLE FACTS CONNECTED WITH WINE-LOFTS. THE OPIMIAN WINE.
CHAP. 17. AT WHAT PERIOD FOUR KINDS OF WINE WERE FIRST SERVED AT TABLE.
CHAP. 18. THE USES OF THE WILD VINE. WHAT JUICES ARE NATURALLY THE COLDEST OF ALL.
CHAP. 19. SIXTY-SIX VARIETIES OF ARTIFICIAL WINE.
CHAP. 20. HYDROMELI, OR MELICRATON.
CHAP. 21. OXYMELI.
CHAP. 22. TWELVE KINDS OF WINE WITH MIRACULOUS PROPERTIES.
CHAP. 23. WHAT WINES IT IS NOT LAWFUL TO USE IN THE SACRED RITES.
CHAP. 24. HOW MUST IS USUALLY PREPARED.
CHAP. 25. PITH AND RESIN.
CHAP. 26. VINEGAR-LEES OF WINE.
CHAP. 27. WINE-VESSELS—WINE-CELLARS.
CHAP. 28. DRUNKENNESS.
CHAP. 29. LIQUORS WITH THE STRENGTH OF WINE MADE FROM WATER AND CORN.Â
Cheers,
RF
p.s. Sorry for "SHOUTING" but I just copied the contents from a website... -
Message 11
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
"Pliny the Elder gives plenty of references too in Book XIV. I think he liked a drop or two!"
More than a drop or two I'd say RF. The man was obviously obsessed!
TG -
Message 12
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
Hi Terese,
Rumours are that after a couple of amphorae of the vino Pliny's final words were:
"Ooooooh Veshuvius is all shmokey. Letsh go a bit closher..."
The rest is history.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. I should have said that it's Book XIV in his "Natural Histories". -
Message 13
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007
Ooooooh Veshuvius is all shmokey. Letsh go a bit closher..."
He was probably so pickled he wouldn't have felt a thing and he felt the earth move into the bargain. What a way to go!!
Therese -
Message 14
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 6th June 2007
Hi Terese,
It's also more than a coincidence that after chapters twenty-shix and twenty-sheben he has one entitled "Drunkenness". By this time I reckon all the decent plonk had gone so he'd started on the only thing left in the drinks cabinet - corn-moonshine. I'm fairly certain that if he hadn't collapsed in a drunken stupor we'd have had a 30th chapter entitled "Mouthwash-based cocktails."...
Cheers,
RF
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