Ancient and Archaeology permalink
The beat of a different drum?
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
Rising out of the post for the Legions vs Long bow.
Can any one help me with this. Did the Roman Army march in step?
All the reconstruction programes on tv seem to imply that they did. But no were in any of the period pictures Ive seen is there any sign that the legions used drums. There are plenty of horns and what look like trumpts but no drums?
Which would make marching in step difficult for long periods.
Also while I'm on it did they use the horns to issue orders on the feild of battle? -
Message 2
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
Hi Dan!
According to Vegetius in his 'De Re Militari'...
MONTHLY MARCHES
It was a constant custom among the old Romans, confirmed by the Ordinances of Augustus and Hadrian, to exercise both cavalry and infantry three times in a month by marches of a certain length. The foot were obliged to march completely armed the distance of ten miles from the camp and return, in the most exact order and with the military step which they changed and quickened on some part of the march. Their cavalry likewise, in troops and properly armed, performed the same marches and were exercised at the same time in their peculiar movement and evolutions; sometimes, as if pursuing the enemy, sometimes retreating and returning again with greater impetuosity to the charge. They made these marches not in plain and even ground only, but both cavalry and infantry were ordered into difficult and uneven places and to ascend or descend mountains, to prepare them for all kinds of accidents and familiarize them with the different maneuvers that the various situations of a country may require.Â
Book I: The Selection and Training of New Levies
madsb/home/war/vegetius/dere03.php#21
LEGIONARY MUSIC
The music of the legion consists of trumpets, cornets and buccinae. The trumpet sounds the charge and the retreat. The cornets are used only to regulate the motions of the colors; the trumpets serve when the soldiers are ordered out to any work without the colors; but in time of action, the trumpets and cornets sound together. The classicum, which is a particular sound of the buccina or horn, is appropriated to the commander-in-chief and is used in the presence of the general, or at the execution of a soldier, as a mark of its being done by his authority. The ordinary guards and outposts are always mounted and relieved by the sound of trumpet, which also directs the motions of the soldiers on working parties and on field days. The cornets sound whenever the colors are to be struck or planted. These rules must be punctually observed in all exercises and reviews so that the soldiers may be ready to obey them in action without hesitation according to the general's orders either to charge or halt, to pursue the enemy or to retire. F or reason will convince us that what is necessary to be performed in the heat of action should constantly be practiced in the leisure of peace.Â
Book II: The Organization of the Legion
madsb/home/war/vegetius/dere05.php#14
Have a bear
Cheers,
RF
p.s. It's a different translation to the usual one I tend to go for, so it may be nonsense...
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Message 3
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
Don't need a drum to march to - just keep an eye on the right marker. If the British army can march on tarmac with rubber soled boots without any external cadence marker, I'm sure the Roman squaddies could.
I would imagine that the units would set of in good order, then hitting rough ground the alignment and pace would be lost - but not badly enough to stop them recouvering their formation quite quickly if needed.
And I bet, for the last mile or so, coming in, they would sort themselves out and come into the camp with a bit of 'swank'. -
Message 4
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
Not only the marched in steps but they were really very good at it! They actually managed to wreck a bridge over river Tiberis when the marching of the troops over it became synchronised with the natural frequency of the bridge which of course fell killing many of the soldiers. After that incident Romans decided not to march on bridges but walk freely, a habit that is respected in modern armies also
Marchign must had been an age old habit both for battle preparation and parading purposes, but must had been perfectioned mostly by armies that gave basis in infantry, mostly close combat styles (well, primarily phalanxes) because in that fighting style there was the greater necessity for synchronised marching in order to keep the lines in perfect array. Marching was most times kept by the rythm of the band playing behind the formation. -
Message 5
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
Interesting stuff - so what about foot wear - and horses' hooves?
Regards P. -
Message 6
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
What about footwear? If you mean what did they wear, the famous caligae, hobnailed sandle-style boots. The hobnails were arranged in specific patterns which would support the sole of the foot; some who have been in a position to compare reckon they've come away with fewer blisters wearing caligae than wearing modern army boots. During the 2nd century AD, for some reason they changed to 'solid' boots instead, for uncertain reasons. Hobnails had to be frequently replaced. A rota of duties associated with a Roman army unit based in Egypt lists a frequent duty as 'boots' - whether this sepcifically related to cobbling, or whether it was shothand for fatigues in general, is uncertain.
Romans did not use horseshoes as we understand them on a regular basis, but horses (usually draft animals) could be fitted with temporary horseshoes, called hipposandals, which were tied on when the horse was travelling on a metalled road. -
Message 7
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 26th June 2007
By the way, contrary to popular belief the Roman Navy didn't use drums, either - to keep time, the oarsmen (who, again contrary to popular belief were free not slaves) sang.
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Message 8
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
Hi Trailape. I was Navy. After leaving basic my square bashing was limited to forming a loose group and ambling in the direction of the Naffi with our hands in our pockets, With an evil gargoyle of a CPO acting the part of the sheep dog while doing a screaming skull impression.
Having said that yes I can understand you dont really need the drums for marching but surely when switching formations in battle some way of keeping a beat would make it easier to stay in formation. For thee and me the worse thing that could happen for mangling it is the eternal displeasure of the drill sergent. for the legions a sloppy formation could be fatal? May be there were more bugle calls than have survived? Maybe Centurions could shout really, really, loudly? Although your probably right that it was just a matter of practice and practice till it was automatic to either stay in step or stay in formation. -
Message 9
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
The Ermine Street Guard can manage perfectly well without. Admittedly a half century isn't the same as an army, or even one cohort, but the same principal presumably applies.
I believe the standards were used in concert with calls on the horns to signal manouevers. Anywayone remember the bizarre semaphore in ITV's ghastly 'Boudica' film a couple of years ago? *shudder* -
Message 10
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
Well backtothedarkplace (dan)Free Sean!, I was a Territorial Artilleryman, who whilst generally reasonably expert at making holes in the ground in far distant fields (not always perforating the right field, but ho hum
) we were not renowned for our foot drill, so my battery and your ships company probably would have perambulated in a similair manner.
Back to the Romans - big battle - loads of screaming and clashing of shields - would ANY drum have been heard? Bugles perhaps, because their higher pitch, but drums would be difficult to hear.
I'm no expert, but I would have imagined visual signals or runners to a certain level, then the 'voice of command' down at the coal face.
Back to foot drill. 2 weeks learning it with the dulcit tones of Sergeants and Sgt Majors, then on the big day, some officer, who to be fair, may have had a brilliant intellect, a jolly good education and the tactical skills of Rommel, but unfortunatly a very small voice
What a cluster flick!
Set the tone for the rest of my military 'career'
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Message 11
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
Well, they used drum calls from the 17th century at least, when they had to compete with musketry and cannon. However, cornus and standard waving seem to have been all the Romans used; of course as well as centurions they had optios and tesserarii to pass on the shouting, and who had big sticks with knobs on the end to prod the soldiers into line.
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Message 12
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
Well, they used drum calls from the 17th century at least, when they had to compete with musketry and cannonÂ
Good point - would visibility issues come into this - black powder notorious for kicking out more smoke than a Teachers staff room on a monday morning - perhaps drums were better than nothing. Did the Light Infantry not use bugles for this?
who had big sticks with knobs on the end to prod the soldiers into lineÂ
not sure I would have put it quite like that
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Message 13
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
not sure I would have put it quite like thatÂ
There's always one...
Yes, the Light Infantry used bugles. -
Message 14
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
yeah - sorry. My kids are at that age at the minute - puerile sniggers all the time - unfortunately the mind set is contagious.
Sorry
(snigger) -
Message 15
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 27th June 2007
Trailape,
My personal favourite line of abuse from the drill shed.
"You, are a maggot!!!! On second thoughts a maggot has a purpose in life!! You are a wart!!!!" Delivered at max volume to the lad next to me. I sniggered, and as far as I remember I should still be running round the shed. -
Message 16
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Thursday, 28th June 2007
oh yes!
Basic Training and Drill Pig sayings.
Our DP had love and hate tatooed on his knuckles and was a big lad. His favourite phrase was 'Witches Tit'.
Two inches from your face he would bellow
"You are a flicking witches tit son - WHAT ARE YOU?"
Timorous reply
"Witches Tit Sergeant"
"No, you c***, you are a FLICKING witches Tit"
He scared me witless. I still have bad dreams about Woolwich.
Little did I know at the time (I did my basic three weeks after joining up, so didn't have a clue about anything) but he was one of the regs attached to my TA battery.
God what a shock I got that particular Tuesday night - thought he was stalking me!
Actually he was a good bloke, bit wild though - once he blew holes in the Sgts Mess ceiling with a shotgun at Redesdale Camp, tad too much McEwans Export I think. Mind you that was in the late 70's Early 80's, things were a bit different then. -
Message 17
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Thursday, 28th June 2007
Hi TrailApe.
Another one from the Drill shed.
"Now, Hughes. When I say run. I want you to leave with the grace and speed of a thousand wilderbeast. RUNnnnnnn!!!" I was allowed to get about 30 feet,
"GET BACK HERE NOWWWW!!!!!!!!"
I turn. I sprint.
"That, was only nine hundred and ninty nine wilderbeast!!!! Gimme 20!"
Back on track though. It would be something to see though wouldnt it? A whole damn legion on the march? The sun on the lorica, the standards flapping, the boot studs on the cobbles and a decurion swearing that "your mother might love you. Your father might love you. But I effffing hate you!"
I might not give a left nut to see it. But certainly a sizable chunk of scrotum. -
Message 18
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Thursday, 28th June 2007
That certainly would be a sight to see, even the noise would be impressive - not sure about losing body parts though.
How about if you replaced the legionaires with Gnu's - would that cost much skin?
If you started off with a thousand, after equipping a legions worth you would have enough left for a barbecue! -
Message 19
Posted by Helena99 (U8659848) on Sunday, 1st July 2007
Not only the marched in steps but they were really very good at it! They actually managed to wreck a bridge over river Tiberis when the marching of the troops over it became synchronised with the natural frequency of the bridge which of course fell killing many of the soldiers. After that incident Romans decided not to march on bridges but walk freely, a habit that is respected in modern armies also
I'm so glad you posted that - it's the question I was going to ask - when did armies realise they had to break step to cross bridges?
Must be quite something to break a bridge up by marching across it.
Are there any modern examples of that happening? -
Message 20
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 6th July 2007
the millenium bridge lol
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