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Alexander the Great and India
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Elkstone (U3836042) on Sunday, 5th August 2007
Did the evolvement of Indo European languages such as Latin, had anything to do with Alexander the Great's conquest of India? Could that be how they spread into Europe? Wasnt he the first 'European' to conqure or make ties with India? Or were they in existence before his arrival? If it wasnt down to him how did they spread from India to Europe? I understand it was not a one way cultural exchange. I heard that Bollywood owed its roots to Indian theatre which came from Greek theatre brought over by Alexander. Anyone confirm this?
Also did Alexander's conquest had anything to do with the Caste system of India? The higher castes are lighter skinned and the untouchables are the darkest like the Tamils, who were the original inhabitants of India. So were the lighter skinned higher castes descendants of invaders from eastern Europea and Asia from Alexander the Great's era? -
Message 2
Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Latin was around long before Alexander the Great. The traditional founding of Rome was in the 8th century BC, predating Alexander by c450 years and I am pretty sure that archelogical remains have been found in Rome that predate even that.
I have heard of connections between northern India and Greece prior to Alexander - Lane Fox mentions that Alexander was actively looking for remains of previous Greek expeditions to the east. It is a long time since I have read Lane Fox so cannot give details. -
Message 3
Posted by scamander (U870981) on Monday, 6th August 2007
There's a good chance that some interaction went on prior to Alexander. Greek philosophy and science was influenced hugely by the east and though it would have been more subtle most cultures encountered the other through a kind of cultural "osmosis".
Latin is a tricky one to pin down. Though the founding of Rome predates Alexander by almost half a century Rome was initially a small tribe amongst many in Italy with a particular dialect.
Latin can be dated to an extent as it went through various stages, like any language. I would find it hard to argue that the civilisations of India and Rome had no contact, but to argue howe much would take some research! -
Message 4
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Saying 'European languages such as Latin' in this context is a little vague also. The languages spoken by those now termed 'Celtic', for example, have a much stronger and direct link with the Indian subcontinent than Latin enjoys. But that link is a far more ancient one than the historical events surrounding Alexander, or even the forming of a Latin society and language for that matter.
It is fair to say that Alexander's impact on eastern civilisation was rather traumatic but short-lived. He is still remembered in certain parts of Asia (with as much love as Europeans have for Attila the Hun), but his political ambitions were never fulfilled and his political activities in that respect limited to an extremely short time-span. The caste system, for example, has no demonstrable link with Greek influence either, its origins lying in the Varnashrama system of class division set out by the proto-Hindi theologists and political administrators 2,500 years before Alexander was born.
In fact there is a good argument that Alexander represents a rupture in the transfer of ideas between the two continents rather than a facilitator. Trade was the medium by which this intercourse was conducted and Alexander's megalomaniac assault on the bastions of this trade took a while to repair after his thankfully early departure from the political stage. His exploits may have engendered a fey interest in 'things eastern' amongst later Greek and Roman societies, but the procurement of goods, ideas and ideologies from that source by westerners was still via the traditional and ancient trade routes and the commerce they channelled in both directions. -
Message 5
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Hi Nordmann,
Wouldn't there also have been plenty of Greek mercenaries who fought on the wrong who ended up as slaves? Let's face it, those ancient Greeks would fight for whoever offered the most drachmas, and plenty must have ended up in those parts fighting in squabbles between one Persian or another (Xenophon's "Anabasis" comes to mind as an example).
I've heard there was Roman architecture way over east that may have been built by slaves captured during the third century by the Parthians. Is there any similar evidence for Greek slaves in the times before that little Macedonian barbarian with the funny hat went on his intercontinental drunken brawl?
Cheers,
RF -
Message 6
Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) on Monday, 6th August 2007
'.....built by slaves captured during the third century by the Parthians.'
Sassanids, not Parthians. Sassanids were much more effective opposition to the Romans than the Parthians ever were. I think the Sassanids killed/captured three emperors in the 3rd century whereas the Romans trashed Susa at least twice when it was ruled by the Parthians. -
Message 7
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Hi Colquhoun,
My bad - I wouldn't mind, but I've only just been reading about the Sassanids as well. I'll have to try to come up with an excuse for making such a dumb mistake... 
Cheers,
RF -
Message 8
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 6th August 2007
... little barbarians? Destroyers of east-west trade? Whatever...! Perhaps Green Martians? Greeks were only those who lived in city-states, were never wearing hats and of course never had kings (that practically makes macedonians as well as epirots, thessalians, aitolians, akarnanians, eurytaneans, cypriots, tarantians along with their anciestors Mycenenas etc. etc. as non-Greek). Whhhaaaatever ok we know Romans had the best army (ouuulà là !)!
Anyway, for the more serious of you, perhaps you are not aware of Nonnos, a 5th century A.D. Helleno-egyptian writer who wrote a poem about "Dionysus" (a god? a legendary man?) mentioning something about one Dionysus that lead a campaign in Egypt then commerced a campaign form "Athens" (obviously the very same one since he states about Phaliro being the port of the city in those early dates - when we do not know, but talking millenia before Alexander)... a campaigned the headed to India.
Certainly Nonnos free-copied much earlier texts, texts that perhaps were read at some point by Alexander inspiring him further. It is more than clear that Persia (probably the richest empire ever and the largest real empire up to the USSR) was for Alexander not the end-target but a stepping stone. Certainly it was not him that introduced Indo-european languages in India but could it be those soldiers of mythical Dionysus? -
Message 9
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Hi E_Nik,
You know we only jest about your favourite little guy with the drinking problem and Napoleon complex. You always take it in the good nature it was intended too! So
and a 
, but just the one as we don't want you rampaging over the eastern hemisphere...
You've mentioned Nonnos before - do you know of any actual texts he may have used? I'd be concerned that without some attributable sources it is all just conjecture.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 10
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Thanx for turning it to the more serious (it is an interesting subject). Of course we do not know if Nonnos made it all out by himself or if he copied (or got influenced by) other previous texts, hence everything is a guess. Certain details though like the claim (true or false it does not matter) about Phaliro being the port of "Athens" "back then" implies possibly that he must had read it elsewhere. We know that at least since 6th B.C. Pireus was the port of Athens. We also know that Attica is habitated since pre-Mycenean times. People had normal sized ships since 4th millenia B.C. (most probably even earlier). I do not know... usually the more ancient is the myth, the longer the voyages (e.g. nobody passed 10 years lost in the mediterranean - oo if he did he would become a joke, bot a legend!). But no, there is no proof of earlier connection with Nonnos text apart the fact he was into studying ancient texts.
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Message 11
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 6th August 2007
let though myself be certain even without the evidence - for me such a writer's arbitrary statement would not make sense, otherwise.
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Message 12
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 6th August 2007
Nonnos, the man who set the Gospel of St John into rhyming couplets (a bit like Cliff Richard and "The Lord's Prayer" 5th century style). Even his name was rather groovy (Nonnos simply means 'saint' - no other handle required apparently). What a source for a theory regarding Hellenic incursions into Asia!
I've never heard of speculation before about which 'lost texts' might lie behind his rather turgid and boring epic. Have you Nik? -
Message 13
Posted by Elkstone (U3836042) on Monday, 6th August 2007
regarding the caste system and its origins perhaps a millenia before Alexander, was it introduced by invaders from eastern europe mid asia who were lighter skinned than the native people they subjugated and used their religion make it permanent?
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Message 14
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 7th August 2007
Hi E_Nik,
I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but according to its article on Faliro (one of many spellings of Phaliro):
[Faliro] was the major port of Athens before Themistocles had the three rocky natural harbours by the promontory of Piraeus developed as alternative from 491.Â
The date may not be accurate (I haven't checked it), but even give or take a few years, it doesn't seem too long before Alexander that it became disused as a port. I'd expect that the fact that Phaliro was the port prior to the Piraeus, whilst maybe not being common knowledge, would have still been known during the time of Nonnos. Any author mentioning the port used in Athens before 491BC who wanted accuracy and an air of authenticity would have used Phaliro in place of the Piraeus.
I'm really not convinced that Nonnos's mention of Phaliro proves that he was basing his work on an ancient text about a historical campaign that headed to India. In my opinion, it's most likely that he was just using available information to try to sound authentic to his audience and critics. We try to spot every little fault in TV programmes about history, and I can imagine that Nonnos's peers would have been the same when it came to literature - using Phaliro would have kept our 6th century pedantic and nitpicking equivalents quiet.
Do you have any other evidence to back up your theory that it may be based on a factual campaign to India?
Cheers,
RF
p.s. I meant to bring my copy of Pausanias' "Guide to Greece" in to work to see if he mentions Phaliro in his section on Attica. Do you know off-hand if he does?
p.p.s. I still think Alexander was a drunken barbarian with a funny hat who was just lucky in battles.
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Message 15
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 7th August 2007
Astute definition of Alexander RF. Just one thing - the hat wasn't 'funny'. It was pathetic.
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Message 16
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 7th August 2007
Hi Nordmann,
I have a pet theory that his conquests were all accidental. Once he became king he started "giving it large" and after flashing a wallet full of drachmas to his mates he offered to buy everyone drinks. One drunken pub crawl later and a few fights over people looking at his pint wrong and... well... the rest is history
I bet he was a really annoying drunk too. All that "I'm great I am" - with that kind of attitude he wouldn't have lasted five minutes in my old local.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. Come on, those petasus hats made the barbarians look hilarious. Now I think of it, maybe that's how they managed to win battles - the opposition died of hysterical laughter. -
Message 17
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 7th August 2007
Well if Alexander and his Macedonians were barbarians then Spartans, Syracusians, Akragantians, Cretans and all the rest must had been all barbarians since their dialects seemed more close than compared to Attic. That leaves as Greeks only Athens, a few islands and the Ionian cities. Should I also take out of the Greek bunch the Aeolians? Their dialect seems to have even less of relation to Ionian. Finally we should conclude that Greeks are a nation that may exist only in city-states, must have necessarily democracy (the moment they are thinking of changing governance they become non-Greeks), they can never wear any type of hats (as their heads should be all well adapted to the strong sun - does that include helmets also? Cos then Athenians also never existed as Greeks), and that Athenians actually made a big big big mistake when in the 5th century were accepting to participate in a barbarian originated celebration like the Olympics Games (founded by Dorians) largely barbarian.
Great theory! I wonder why some of you are rather upset with my speculation on Dionysus myths and a possible influence on Alexander (who indeed loved similar myths).
The initial question was rather naif (whether the Hellenic Army influenced Indias' caste system) whose answer is more than obvious. Now, the discussion is rather to whether there was an established myth before Nonnos weird texts about some guy called Dionysus who campaigned from... Phaliro* to India.
*I was not aware that Phaliro had remained for so late the main port of Athens - I thought it might had been up to mid-7th B.C. century or something. If Pireus only became the main port of Athens at late 6th century (coinciding with the rise of Athens as a maritime power), then I think that Nonnos would have plenty of texts referring to that change than just old myths. Still I find his myth as intriguing and think that it was based on previous texts - Nonnos had anyway that tedency to repeat others. Even after his fake turn to christianism he did so. -
Message 18
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 7th August 2007
I love the concept of Greek heads being well adapted to the strong sun. How does this work? Built-in air cooling refrigeration units in the sinuses? Crania shaped like fedoras? Big noses that absorb the UV radiation ahead of the more sensitive areas?
Oh ok. I see your point now. -
Message 19
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 9th August 2007
Hi E_Nik,
I'm not upset in any way by your speculations on the Dionysus myths, but I would like to hear some evidence to back up your theory. You feel certain that Nonnos free-copied much earlier texts, but apart from the reference to Phaliro (which I personally don't find convincing) have given no evidence to support the theory that it may be based on an actual event. You do mention that there are certain other details in Nonnos' Dionysiaca, apart from the mention of Phaliro, that make you feel that it may be the case - what are they?
Cheers,
RF
p.s. So do you think Alexander wore some funny hats? -
Message 20
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 9th August 2007
I do not know, he certainly was into horses - horses and hats go usually together. Anyway, I have to find online Nonnos Dionysiaca to be more accurate
In wikipedia someone has written the following:
""Nonnus' principal work is the Dionysiaca .... other poets had already treated the subject, and since the time of Alexander the Great it had gained popularity from the favourite comparison of the king with the god and of his enemies with the giants.""
To be honest I do not remember where they base all that but I think I had read somewhere that Alexander in his lifetime was often compared to Dionysus and that had something to do with India also... I do not know. However I am not aware if Alexander searched remaining evidence of an earlier Greek presence in the region. Certainly Greeks had visited the area, mostly as merchants or through working for the Persian Imperial army but there is nothing apart such myth and the fact that Indo-Europeans came from the west (very generic) that suggests that them they were Greeks. Still I find the myth intriguing. Why would Greeks have a myth of a campaign to India and not another place, one more near them, I do not know. Probably, as Dionysus cult was a derivative of a Minor Asian one, it was a transposition and maybe this campaign was one of proto-Iranians that went to India for example. Who knows... -
Message 21
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 14th August 2007
Hi E_Nik,
I had a look at the section on Dionysus in Robert Graves's "The Greek Myths" over the weekend. He believed that the India myth was based on the spread of viticulture and wine from the Mediterranean. It has plenty of notes and references so I'll bring it in tomorrow and give you a list of sources he uses for the section on Dionysus going into Asia (he doesn't use Nonnus tho'). I'll copy any relevant notes that may be of interest to you and post them too.
I also had a quick scan through "The Bacchae" by Euripedes but couldn't find anything relating to India. There were a couple of mentions of Dionysus having been in Asia, although I'm guessing that they refer to Asia Minor.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. The only online Dionysiaca I could find covers just the first 14 books. The 13th and 14th cover his human and divine armies respectively, but it looks like the India expedition comes later. You'll find it here if you're interested tho'.
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Message 22
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 14th August 2007
For what it's worth - the tribal people of the Kalash valley still observe Dionysis' spring festival - with wine.
Local history has it that they are descende from remnants of Alexander's army who stayed to settled this most beautiful area. They speak is if Alexander was there a fortnight ago. The name Iskander which means Alexander is still used.
The women have a circular dance which is unlike any other - arms on shoulders and seems a tad Greek... but that's only guessing.
Apparently they have several greek words in their local tongue.
Many are being converted to Islam so in a few years there will be no trace of their ancient and old culture.
Soem of their effegies are of stylised horses - which they do have in the vales. Not sure about now but 30 years ago dead were put onto raised biers in the forest for later burial of the bones.
I interrupted your thread just thought it might be of interest.
Regards P. -
Message 23
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 17th August 2007
There are other tribes that claim a distant relation to the armies of Alexander the Great but then Kalash are the the only remaining tribe that seems to derive from a culture that used to be a bit more widespread in this mountainous region of Pakistan that was the last remnant of an earlier Hellenistic culture in the region.
Indeed they have a very distinctive culture preserved for 2 millenia due to the difficulty of access of foreigners in their region and one may draw many paradigms of hellenistic influence. They indeed use some greek words, their dances are unsimilar to those of their Pakistani neighbours and resemble the Greek ones, and they use chairs and tables to eat (while traditions over the greater area did not), they even use a star symbol that resembles the macedonian 8-rays star.
There have been made a considerable analysis on the Kalash people (a few years back, just in time before their disappearence of course, that is naturally going on currently - on the one hand their few numbers and on the other having lost their isolation they are face to face with surrounding muslims and subject to pressure to change faith). It has been partially shown that these people are solely culturally linked to macedonians arriving there since anthropologically they have considerable differences being actually often quite blonder like the average macedonian soldier would be. Normally in marriages between Greeks and persians, the kids would not resemble much different either from Greeks or from Persians while in a marriage of Greeks and Indians the kids would have a slight fairer skin colour but usually with dark to black hair. However, apart their lighter skin (that is of course found in other places in India, like Kashmir) the Kalash often show colour hairs that are not usual even today in the Mediterranean world (apart the slavic people of mid-northern S.E. Europe who of course are not exactly the best example of Mediteranneans nor of how macedonian soldiers looked. The latter comment is funny because the fairness of Kalash had been used in the past by certain historians in slavic speaking countries to forward weird theories about Slavs being present next to to Greeks since time immemorial (but Greeks had not noticed it!) and that Macedonians were not Greeks but Slavs (but Greeks had not noticed it since Slavs died their hair black and pretended to have excellent pronunciations in Greek language, thus they were invited to the Olympics that was only for Greeks).
The truth is that Kalash are not the only fair people int he area, there were many different tribes not related to them, or to Hellenistic cultures in the late 1 millenia B.C. Kalash simply inherited parts of that culture. -
Message 24
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 17th August 2007
Then of course one may suggest that it could just be one of these fairer tribes that lived around Afganistan and Pakistan that Alexander's soldiers married with and produced the likes of the ancestors of Kalash. Well everything is possible but insisting on a very a direct link to these soldiers is a bit too much straightforward - these were a just a small number of men, not whole tribes while very few of them would install their homes up in the mountains... lets not forget, as Alexander himself often reminded his soldiers, these were men that became really rich - even the last archer had gathered a considerable amount of money, thus I doubt that many of them would opt to spend them up in these regions - preferring either the rich cities of Mesopotamia and Persia or these of India.
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Message 25
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Saturday, 18th August 2007
What of the vast number of camp followers? You are being dismissive about Greek army staying back. People do stay on in the wildest places - as did many British after subcontintal independence. Having meet many in remote places - most have died now, I can vouch for that.
Then there is the great Greek impact on the Buddhists in the Ghandara cities.
A complex of several such places, is Taxila. - where all the Buddhas and the art work is in the greek style. The statue of the fasting Buddha is an extraordinary example.
Alexander did not found all the cities there - Sirkar is very much older but the Greek overlay is undeniable.
You would have it then that a great surge of Greeks came after him - and that none of the army stopped off because they had money to spend in the hot spots back home?
As I recall, his army was fed up with the long journey and wanted to go home. Some may even have been fed up enough to want to stay where they were.
Demobbed army have been known to do that. My father, as I recall, was very keen to return to Italy to live.
All ways in opposition, it seems,
Regards P. -
Message 26
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 18th August 2007
Oh no, my point is not to be in opposition. It is just that by the time Alexander was reaching the Indian neighbourhood most of his army was already allies and mercenaries - in the Indian campaign he had his army increased to nearly 80,000 men but less than 20,000 were of Greek origins, the rest being recruited from the vast ressources of the conquered Persian empire (and that is why he tried to play the 'good guy' to the Persians). Now, even if all of these soldiers stayed at one region they would be not enough to give once and for all a greek flavor in the area taking for granted that the line from India to Persia was quite densely populated by the local cultures (apart of course from the mountainous areas were the Kalash live). I would also suggest that if it was all about a local garisson, that would not surpass the number of 500 men who are not enough to change the culture of one place for 2000 years even if they married 4 wifes each and after a generation there was a half-greek population of 4000 (still that is an average village in the vastness of local cultures).
What I suggest is that the continuous influx of merchants and adventurers from the Greek world in the west (be it Seleukid Syria, Egypt or Minor Asia) added an intense greek flavour in the area, there was a cultural blending which a millenia later and in the absence of further contact with the Greek world (by then christian Byzantine) due to the muslim expansion it faded away only to be saved in remoted places like the mountainous area the Kalash tribe live. Hence, I would not go that far to link the Kalash directly to some macedonian garisson or make other propositions further than above.
This is my humble opinion, not an opposition for the shake of it of course. Cheers! -
Message 27
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Sunday, 19th August 2007
The Kalash valleys are small in population. Until quite recently very difficult to reach and out of the path of marauders. Again, until recently they had no coinage - cowrie shells and beads on the very unusual women's headresses was their show of wealth. And how they came by them is a mystery.
It is not unusual in UK still to be able to find families listed in the 1066/7 Domesday books still living in the sme hamlet/ village. Or at least in my area of Eastern England.
Pax regards P. -
Message 28
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 19th August 2007
Well, afterall why not?
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Message 29
Posted by villamarce (U9034231) on Wednesday, 5th September 2007
i think that the caste system probably originated at around the same time of the "Aryan Invasion" when Caucasians began to subjugate the aboriginal peoples of India.
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Message 30
Posted by villamarce (U9034231) on Friday, 23rd November 2007
Indo European languages as a group existed long before Alexander the Great!
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