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greece
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Message 1.Â
Posted by U10375950 (U10375950) on Friday, 30th November 2007
in grece
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Message 2
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 1st December 2007
Greece is a relatively small state created in 1830 and given this name due to international politics despite the fact that Greek nationalists had other intentions and had rebelled against Ottomans as descendants of Roman citizens (Eastern Roman Empire).
As a term that does not refer to the modern state Greece is of little use as even geographically it was never defined - practically it may include all SE Europe and half of Mediterranean coast. -
Message 3
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 1st December 2007
"in grece"
Yes, and the question is what U10375950? -
Message 4
Posted by mickeymay (U3600416) on Monday, 3rd December 2007
as was Israel in 1947, Is there more?
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Message 5
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 3rd December 2007
As a term that does not refer to the modern state Greece is of little use as even geographically it was never defined - practically it may include all SE Europe and half of Mediterranean coast.Â
From Sicily to Mesopotamia and from the Danube to the Nile ...
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Message 6
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Look - E-Nik doesn't need a question to write about Greece. If you want a fight on your hands mention Macedonia in any context - Ancient Greeks and slavery or Alexander in a bad light.
I do respect your breadth of knowledge, E-Nik - but if you knew about my latest book out last month you'd flip in spades doubled.
Regards P. -
Message 7
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi Priscilla,
I always find it funny that the only way the Greek city states were united for anything longer than a couple of weeks was by the invasion of a little Macedonian with a Napoleon complex and his fellow uncouth barbarians in their silly hats. And when Alexander died they were back to their usual petty inter-city squabbles before his body was even cold.
Macedonians were Greek? If that's the case then -as the great Little Milton once sang - grits ain't grocery, eggs ain't poultry and Mona Lisa was a man...
Cheers,
RF -
Message 8
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Apparently Macedonians learnt Greek in school (or at the gymnasium, they have funny educational practises in that part of the world). This of course makes them Greek if they win anything.
In fact another clincher is that they got invited to the Olympics by the Greeks, who at that time were the only people who could be world olympic champions at anything (ancient American World Series principle), which meant either that they were really Greeks who called themselves Macedonians for some stupid reason, or that they were Macedonians who spoke Greek so well that they fooled the Olympics Committee (ancient East German testosterone-filled ladies volleyball principle).
But by far the biggest proof of the lot that the Macedonians were really greeks is that E_Nik has now said it on these boards a total of three hundred and twent two thousand, four hundred and nineteen times.
Personally I think the Greeks these days look more like Turks than anything else. If one wants to find real Greeks one has to travel to the former Yugoslavian state of Macedonia (there are two guys in Skopje who run a kebab booth by the railway station). -
Message 9
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi Nordmann,
Personally I think the Greeks these days look more like Turks than anything else.Â
With all that invasion and counter-invasion between the areas of modern turkey and modern Greece over the millenia, you would think that they'd realise that, genetically at least, there's probably no difference between a Turk and a Greek. Turks probably have plenty of Greek genetic material, and Greeks probably have plenty of Turkish genetic material. They've got so much in common with each other - apart from the obvious love of pitta, salty cheese and olives - that I really can't understand why they fight and don't give each other a big hug and say "I love you". But there again the ancient Greeks never missed an opportunity for a petty squabble amongst their brethren either did they?
Cheers,
RF -
Message 10
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Nah - the Greeks have been fighting like Turks amongst themselves since ... well, since before they became Turks.
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Message 11
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hook baited. The trouble is I hate the waiting about in fishing.
So, to be sensible folks, let's admit it, Alexander was not actually Greek or Great. That's called throwing bait, I suppose.... bound to be a technical term. Especially if you got a slave to do it - apparently it was all right for Greeks to own slaves, whatever else they had to say nobly on the human lot; slaves didn't count because they couldn't. -
Message 12
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
I read a very convincing essay some while back that proved Socrates and Plato weren't Greek either. The whole importation of slaves without proper documentation has led to a mass of misunderstandings in Greek history apparently.
Oh yes. Just remembered. Ö÷²¥´óÐãr was an Assyrian too. His work was appropriated by the Greeks and all the relevant names changed some time long after his demise. -
Message 13
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi Priscilla,
Greeks could own slaves simply because they invented everything. For example, a fact most historians ignore is that the Ancient Egyptians were descended from the Greeks, and the transfer of culture was from the Pelopo-thingy to the Nile, and not vice versa as is commonly believed.
Another little known fact is that Alexander's sobriquet comes about from a simple misspelling. He was originally known as Alexander the Grate because he was an annoying and irritating little bloke with a drinking problem.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 14
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi Nordmann,
I read a very convincing essay some while back that proved Socrates and Plato weren't Greek either.Â
I have to admit that their names do sound very Turkish.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 15
Posted by littleBob (U3546607) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Ö÷²¥´óÐãr may well have been an Assyrian..... a very good point....but very likely to upset the traditional theorists ;o)
The other theory is that Ö÷²¥´óÐãr was a fictional creation of Myceanian propaganda, his original stories were existing legends \ myths adapted to suit the needs of those aspiring to imperialist expansion. -
Message 16
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
You cannot be serious little BoB - here anyway!
So pleased you named yourself Bob. The naming of things, parts, people and toys is so very difficult
Regards P.
Enter an angry E-Nik stage left - or are all the engineers busy today? We're evn bear-baiting today. Is that an ancient greek sport? Or was it only Medes, Turks and Trijans - or were they Greek too? They seemed to speak Greek - unless Nestor sent interpreters. Silly me. -
Message 17
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Trojans, even.
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Message 18
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi Priscilla,
Or was it only Medes, Turks and Trijans - or were they Greek too?Â
Not exactly Greeks per se, but they were definitely descended from Greeks - the sub-Saharan Hellenic tribes that is.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 19
Posted by villamarce (U9034231) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Greeks could own slaves simply because they invented everything. For example, a fact most historians ignore is that the Ancient Egyptians were descended from the Greeks, and the transfer of culture was from the Pelopo-thingy to the Nile, and not vice versa as is commonly believed.
Sorry Priscilla but unless you are able to to provide some evidence of this fairly bold claim I will treat it as at best wild conjecture..
historically speaking this claim seems ludicrous as the evidence for the existence of Egyptian civilisation massively pre dates any European civilisation! -
Message 20
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Don't you people have anything better to do today other than stiring the locals?
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Message 21
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi islanddawn,
But it is great fun isn't it?
We're planning on running a sweepstake on how many unnecessary words E_Nik uses in his response - fancy a flutter?
Cheers,
RF -
Message 22
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi RF,
No way! If only my Greek was as good as Niko's English.
You are full of mischief today, was there a strange additive in your sandwich at lunch?
TG -
Message 23
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi TG,
Me mischievous? You make me sound like an imp! I'm just feeling a bit playful that's all, and Nik's ummm... rather unique and strongly held Hellenocentric views are always good play-value. He's used to us mocking Alexander the Great and Macedon on a regular basis so he'll see the funny side. The best thing is he'll read all the other posts before he gets to this one and will have responded to plenty of posts by then...
Cheers,
RF
p.s. I agree Nik's English is extremely good - he's also a good guy.
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Message 24
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
A good guy indeed - but one lousy Turk!
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Message 25
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Hi RF
Or if he is clever he will just ignore this thread entirely!
TG -
Message 26
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
I said he was a good guy - I didn't say he was clever...
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Message 27
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Naughty boy
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Message 28
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
He may be a lousy turk, but you have to admit that he's an incredible advert for the nation that holds the strongest claim to being the ancestors of Alexander the Great - the Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia!
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Message 29
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
He definitely namechecks them enough.
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Message 30
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
"in grece"
It is currently raining, temperature is at 19C, humidity at 75% and windspeed is at 30kmh gusting to 40kmh. -
Message 31
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 4th December 2007
Sounds like you moved to a little bit of paradise there TG...
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Message 32
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
"Sounds like you moved to a little bit of paradise there TG... "
Well it is winter RF, can't have sunshine all year! -
Message 33
Posted by Grumpyarchmonkey (U10592661) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
Just wanted to nudge here, seem to be some real misconceptions going on here, unless I misunderstood something.
Civilisation went neither to or from Greece to Egypt in the very early times, ie the lithic age, there is no relationship. There is some debate about whether Neolithic Greek civilisation came from Turkey (Childe's rather colonial diffusion theory) or developed indigenously, but all the Eastern Med was inhabited by this time. Current opinion is it was a mix of both.
From there on, there was the Minoan, Mycenaean civilisations in Greece 1000's of years before the appearance of any Socrates or Ö÷²¥´óÐãr, so Archaic and Classical Greece are very late periods in Greek history and cannot be cited as the roots of Greece, even if many Greeks themselves think that is the case. This is only very a brief part of a huge story.
Not trying to tread on toes here and sorry if I misunderstood -
Message 34
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
Hi Grumpyarchmonkey,
A sensible post on this thread at last! Don't take the previous posts seriously, just a couple of (playful?) members, who were obviously bored yesterday, trying (unsuccessfully!) to wind up a Greek member of the board.
TG -
Message 35
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
ahem... are you saying our posts from yesterday weren't serious?
How's the weather this evening? -
Message 36
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
Hi RF
Unfortunately it has stopped raining but is still cloudy and cold, there is some lightning so hopefully we'll get a storm soon.
How is the hangover going after yesterday?
TG -
Message 37
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
Hangover? What are you insinuating?
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Message 38
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 5th December 2007
The sword of Damocles (old Turkish legend). Now THAT was a hangover!
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Message 39
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 9th December 2007
Hehehe... an amazing thread that I lost for sometime - I knew it when I wrote the first stupid message... eheheheh - people will say now that I enjoy playing the "picturesque" guy in this forum! Well... one has to live up to his fame. Thanks for the nice comments - the truth is that so far I have learnt much more from you - especially when we disagree - than you did from me and afteral my english skills are not that good taking for granted I spent some 5 years in the late 90s studying in England but then my French are not that good either and my pronunciation (though not typical mediterranean) sounds always too international - certainly I could never learn Chinese! It might have to do with some short of dyslexy I might have.
Also I would like to say that whataver bashing I receive here for my 'strange' views is far less than what I receive from fellow compatriots when they hear my views on the earlier connection of proto-Greeks with Minor Asia and that back in those days (according to my view) there was a continuous spectrum from Greeks to southern Thraecians, Phrygians, Dardanians, Moesians, Lydians and so on. Greeks get always shocked when somebody tells them that they were not a brotherless unique nation that came from outer space giving the lights of civilisation to this unforgiving and unthankfull world. Imagine when I tell them that most modern Greeks derive from Greeks from South Italy and Minor Asia... and imagine when I tell them that most of our foreign population additions comes from the above aforementioned tribes and not that much from Bulgarians or Albanians or Goths or Turkish (the original slash-eyed ones): here i disappoint both right wing ones (cos I admit a high mix) but also the left wing ones (the ones that want to bury the notion of nation since the aforementioned tribes were not that far from Greeks and have no modern relative implications). Well what can I do? , French say, "On ne peut pas plaire à tout le monde".
The message from Grumpy above is excellent and represents my own views. It is true that classical Greek culture of the 5th century was just one of the cultures that sprung in the area and if not seen from the world's perspective (that for various reasons concentrates on the 5th century and on a small part of the Greek world) but from a Greek perspective, it was a relatively short period of Greek history. In fact from 1000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., half of the time Greeks spent it with 12 Gods and the other half with 1 3-dimensional one. The Greek culture the least 'played' is the Byzantine one, for which actually we seem to have less details than for the ancient one (the result of the total destruction of the area by the successive conquerors commencing with the Crusaders). But then similar destructions had happened back in the early geometric period resulting in later archaic and classical Greeks knowing really few things about the Mycenaean kingdoms (1-2 myths and that was all) when at the same time Egyptians for example clamed to remember history for several millenia.
Playing the multiple choice with the cultures of the Greek region I would opt first for Minoan (the best life ever on earth!), then Mycenean (most stylish, very similar to Minoan), then 10th-11th century Byzantine (the place to be!), then Hellenistic (very exciting times - a missed opportunity for humanity to (re)discover America and send a man to space by the "early middle ages"), then classical (all time classic), then archaic, then geometric (too much violence, little progress), then Turkocracy (too much violence, too much regression), and then the modern Greek state. I place Turkocracy before since at least Greeks back then had some style (wearing skirts and fighting with some fossil muskets for some high-ideals Robin Hood style giving the inspiration for some nice folk songs!).
I think my approach is almost Hediod-like with the golden, the silver and the bronze generation... maybe it is too much inbred in the culture. Haha! -
Message 40
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 9th December 2007
Hit the nail on the head, Nik, with the very last bit.
Inbreeding - always explains a lot. -
Message 41
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 9th December 2007
Bravo Nik, well said!
I like your multiple choice of the Greek cultures, very amusing.
Wonder how RF will go now with his sweepstake? BTW don't listen to Nordmann, an Irishman is not one to talk about inbreeding! (lol)
TG -
Message 42
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 9th December 2007
Outbreeding is our speciality!
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Message 43
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 9th December 2007
Ha, not with the sheep I hope!
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Message 44
Posted by Xenos5 (U1814603) on Sunday, 9th December 2007
Nordmann
Wasn't the World Series named for the newspaper The World (like, say, the Coca-cola Cup) ? I read it was a misunderstanding to imagine that Americans saw it as a world championship.
(How's that for a tangent....)
X -
Message 45
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 10th December 2007
Apparently not, according to this guy:
Doug seems to have done his research too, like any good historian! -
Message 46
Posted by Xenos5 (U1814603) on Saturday, 15th December 2007
Good stuff. Thanks Nordmann, I enjoyed that link; and I'll believe it. Cheers.
X
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